kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,353
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Post by kingswood Polak on Sept 27, 2015 15:39:06 GMT
But doesn't that largely defeat the object? We had decades of 'until we own our own ground....'. Then 'wait til we get the UWE stadium'. Now people are imagining a mysterious third party building us a free stadium and declaring it the hush hush triumph of behind the veil forward thinking they're so convinced about. So we go from owning a dump of a stadium which we only ever bother to half fill to renting a pitch and three times more seats than we need. Was that always the objective? Yes it does but don't forget that ANYONE with the money can build a stadium and doesn't have to involve BRFC at all I keep hearing this and I don't understand how it could happen. If BRFC applied for pp and did all the prep then surely anyone who wanted to build, would have to get that from the club, no ? I can't see how someone could just turn up, with the readies, then just build it without at least buying those plans and transfer pp ?? I don't get it, if that is what you are saying ?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2015 15:41:17 GMT
But doesn't that largely defeat the object? We had decades of 'until we own our own ground....'. Then 'wait til we get the UWE stadium'. Now people are imagining a mysterious third party building us a free stadium and declaring it the hush hush triumph of behind the veil forward thinking they're so convinced about. So we go from owning a dump of a stadium which we only ever bother to half fill to renting a pitch and three times more seats than we need. Was that always the objective? Yes it does but don't forget that ANYONE with the money can build a stadium and doesn't have to involve BRFC at all So someone else speculatively builds a stadium in case anyone wants to use it (is there another Wimbledon they could do an MK Dons on?) and we stay at the Mem and write off the costs to date of the UWE stadium. I'm struggling to see this as a glorious hush-hush solution, waiting in the wings. So far it doesn't seem much of a master plan: get back to where we were six years ago, complaining that the club is unsustainable at the Mem, except with a couple of million off the book value, lapsed permission to redevelop the Mem, and people get to drive past a UWE stadium we don't play at on their way to games [edit to add: except any away games against whoever might play at the UWE stadium]. Oh, and why waste another million trying to force Sainsbury's to pay over the odds to demolish the Mem? Isn't that lose-lose? What am I missing?
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Smithy Gas
Craig Hinton
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 271
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Post by Smithy Gas on Sept 27, 2015 17:21:11 GMT
Yes it does but don't forget that ANYONE with the money can build a stadium and doesn't have to involve BRFC at all I keep hearing this and I don't understand how it could happen. If BRFC applied for pp and did all the prep then surely anyone who wanted to build, would have to get that from the club, no ? I can't see how someone could just turn up, with the readies, then just build it without at least buying those plans and transfer pp ?? I don't get it, if that is what you are saying ? KP Planning permission is granted per site, not site owner. There may be something in getting permission from the architects to use plans, or indeed the plans may not be at full tender drawings yet and as such, the new developers may have to pay those costs, but anyone can build something on a site with the owners permission... And we don't own a thing.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,353
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Post by kingswood Polak on Sept 27, 2015 17:47:28 GMT
I keep hearing this and I don't understand how it could happen. If BRFC applied for pp and did all the prep then surely anyone who wanted to build, would have to get that from the club, no ? I can't see how someone could just turn up, with the readies, then just build it without at least buying those plans and transfer pp ?? I don't get it, if that is what you are saying ? KP Planning permission is granted per site, not site owner. There may be something in getting permission from the architects to use plans, or indeed the plans may not be at full tender drawings yet and as such, the new developers may have to pay those costs, but anyone can build something on a site with the owners permission... And we don't own a thing. Thank you for explaining that. I didn't have a Scooby on that score. I used to labour on 3 brickies in another lifetime. That was the closest I got to any plans
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Thatslife
"Decisions are made by those who turn up"
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 669
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Post by Thatslife on Sept 27, 2015 21:43:21 GMT
I keep hearing this and I don't understand how it could happen. If BRFC applied for pp and did all the prep then surely anyone who wanted to build, would have to get that from the club, no ? I can't see how someone could just turn up, with the readies, then just build it without at least buying those plans and transfer pp ?? I don't get it, if that is what you are saying ? KP Planning permission is granted per site, not site owner. There may be something in getting permission from the architects to use plans, or indeed the plans may not be at full tender drawings yet and as such, the new developers may have to pay those costs, but anyone can build something on a site with the owners permission... And we don't own a thing. Exactly my point but you outlined it better than I. Will, in the end be down to the UWE as land owners and South Glos council.
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Smithy Gas
Craig Hinton
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 271
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Post by Smithy Gas on Sept 27, 2015 21:51:56 GMT
KP Planning permission is granted per site, not site owner. There may be something in getting permission from the architects to use plans, or indeed the plans may not be at full tender drawings yet and as such, the new developers may have to pay those costs, but anyone can build something on a site with the owners permission... And we don't own a thing. Exactly my point but you outlined it better than I. Will, in the end be down to the UWE as land owners and South Glos council. The vagaries of the planning system, although mostly residential, are something I deal with on a day to day basis so I know how some things can sound strange to the uninitiated. We still have a say in this though for now, as a 21K stadium needs an anchor tenant and the only real option is us. So I can't see UWE pushing ahead without us being around the negotiating table.
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Post by Henbury Gas on Sept 28, 2015 8:24:54 GMT
Exactly my point but you outlined it better than I. Will, in the end be down to the UWE as land owners and South Glos council. The vagaries of the planning system, although mostly residential, are something I deal with on a day to day basis so I know how some things can sound strange to the uninitiated. We still have a say in this though for now, as a 21K stadium needs an anchor tenant and the only real option is us. So I can't see UWE pushing ahead without us being around the negotiating table. Only if the plan to play football at the Sports complex... maybe an athletics Stadium ?
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Smithy Gas
Craig Hinton
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 271
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Post by Smithy Gas on Sept 28, 2015 9:07:02 GMT
The vagaries of the planning system, although mostly residential, are something I deal with on a day to day basis so I know how some things can sound strange to the uninitiated. We still have a say in this though for now, as a 21K stadium needs an anchor tenant and the only real option is us. So I can't see UWE pushing ahead without us being around the negotiating table. Only if the plan to play football at the Sports complex... maybe an athletics Stadium ? Would need a new planning permission. Apart from the Olympic Stadium, there isn't an athletics stadium in the country that is over 21K (even Crystal Palace is only 15K) so why would they build the country's biggest athletics stadium on a university campus?
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 28, 2015 9:07:38 GMT
Where are you getting £80m from? Are our debts £20m now?
More like about £45m (they would sell the Mem!), and in return you get a stadium, which has an income and a value.
Well you will have to buy the club, and the Mem, to keep going whilst the UWE is being built, I suppose the 2 are around £20 mill. The UWE build will be more like £50 mill this time next year, and then there is the team and all the employees wages. Given that we always lose £500k plus all the loans that are outstanding say £7 mill, so about £77 and a half million. Yes we can get some money back on selling the MEM but who really wants it? Well housing probably at £15 mill . Anyway don't think it is going to happen
You seem to have counted the club's debts twice.
Ok, here's my ridiculous back of a fag packet guesses:
Cost of club = value of Mem aprox £15m, plus paying off shareholder and external debts plus £1 for the club itself. I'll give you £20m. But get immediately sell the Mem for deferred development (in the same ways as Sainsburys), or get a secured loan for full amount of Mem value, approx. £15m back. Real cost of club = £5 to 7m. Add £2m seed money.
Why would the UWE build be going up? Wage inflation is still low, fuel and materials costs have dropped like a stone due to China's problems. I see no reason for a 20% increase in costs, unless I can be persuaded otherwise. I'm sticking to £40m.
So £40 - £50m, and you've got yourself a stadium.
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Post by fanatical on Sept 28, 2015 9:16:10 GMT
I keep hearing this and I don't understand how it could happen. If BRFC applied for pp and did all the prep then surely anyone who wanted to build, would have to get that from the club, no ? I can't see how someone could just turn up, with the readies, then just build it without at least buying those plans and transfer pp ?? I don't get it, if that is what you are saying ? KP Planning permission is granted per site, not site owner. There may be something in getting permission from the architects to use plans, or indeed the plans may not be at full tender drawings yet and as such, the new developers may have to pay those costs, but anyone can build something on a site with the owners permission... And we don't own a thing. Correct in every respect especially in view of ' we don't own a thing' and the way things are going will become even more true
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Post by fanatical on Sept 28, 2015 9:18:37 GMT
Well you will have to buy the club, and the Mem, to keep going whilst the UWE is being built, I suppose the 2 are around £20 mill. The UWE build will be more like £50 mill this time next year, and then there is the team and all the employees wages. Given that we always lose £500k plus all the loans that are outstanding say £7 mill, so about £77 and a half million. Yes we can get some money back on selling the MEM but who really wants it? Well housing probably at £15 mill . Anyway don't think it is going to happen
You seem to have counted the club's debts twice.
Ok, here's my ridiculous back of a fag packet guesses:
Cost of club = value of Mem aprox £15m, plus paying off shareholder and external debts plus £1 for the club itself. I'll give you £20m. But get immediately sell the Mem for deferred development (in the same ways as Sainsburys), or get a secured loan for full amount of Mem value, approx. £15m back. Real cost of club = £5 to 7m. Add £2m seed money.
Why would the UWE build be going up? Wage inflation is still low, fuel and materials costs have dropped like a stone due to China's problems. I see no reason for a 20% increase in costs, unless I can be persuaded otherwise. I'm sticking to £40m.
So £40 - £50m, and you've got yourself a stadium.
LP Gas must be an Ed Balls supporter whereas faggotygas follows the Chancellor (hence the use of a fag packet!)
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nsgas
Joined: July 2014
Posts: 61
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Post by nsgas on Sept 28, 2015 9:22:45 GMT
Well you will have to buy the club, and the Mem, to keep going whilst the UWE is being built, I suppose the 2 are around £20 mill. The UWE build will be more like £50 mill this time next year, and then there is the team and all the employees wages. Given that we always lose £500k plus all the loans that are outstanding say £7 mill, so about £77 and a half million. Yes we can get some money back on selling the MEM but who really wants it? Well housing probably at £15 mill . Anyway don't think it is going to happen
You seem to have counted the club's debts twice.
Ok, here's my ridiculous back of a fag packet guesses:
Cost of club = value of Mem aprox £15m, plus paying off shareholder and external debts plus £1 for the club itself. I'll give you £20m. But get immediately sell the Mem for deferred development (in the same ways as Sainsburys), or get a secured loan for full amount of Mem value, approx. £15m back. Real cost of club = £5 to 7m. Add £2m seed money.
Why would the UWE build be going up? Wage inflation is still low, fuel and materials costs have dropped like a stone due to China's problems. I see no reason for a 20% increase in costs, unless I can be persuaded otherwise. I'm sticking to £40m.
So £40 - £50m, and you've got yourself a stadium.
Why would anyone pay £15m for the Mem and pay back the debts on top? If you want to buy a house that's worth £300,000 upon which the owners have a £150,000 mortgage, you wouldn't buy their house from them for £450,000!
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2015 9:33:53 GMT
Well you will have to buy the club, and the Mem, to keep going whilst the UWE is being built, I suppose the 2 are around £20 mill. The UWE build will be more like £50 mill this time next year, and then there is the team and all the employees wages. Given that we always lose £500k plus all the loans that are outstanding say £7 mill, so about £77 and a half million. Yes we can get some money back on selling the MEM but who really wants it? Well housing probably at £15 mill . Anyway don't think it is going to happen
You seem to have counted the club's debts twice.
Ok, here's my ridiculous back of a fag packet guesses:
Cost of club = value of Mem aprox £15m, plus paying off shareholder and external debts plus £1 for the club itself. I'll give you £20m. But get immediately sell the Mem for deferred development (in the same ways as Sainsburys), or get a secured loan for full amount of Mem value, approx. £15m back. Real cost of club = £5 to 7m. Add £2m seed money.
Why would the UWE build be going up? Wage inflation is still low, fuel and materials costs have dropped like a stone due to China's problems. I see no reason for a 20% increase in costs, unless I can be persuaded otherwise. I'm sticking to £40m.
So £40 - £50m, and you've got yourself a stadium.
All of the debt is the responsibility of the present owners, they would deal with that out of their £15m. The club is worth less than nothing as it's appears to be structured in a way that means that without significant extraordinary income it will lose money every year. In fact, if I were to have that conversation with Higgs I would tell him that I wanted him to give me the club FOC and lodge funds in an account to cover at least one year's losses. Seth. We were told that the new stadium would secure the future of the FC, as we don't make any effort to fill the existing stadium I assume that the BoD don't see that as the way to deal with losses and that what secured the club was the non-football income. So, that means that the bolt-on facilities are profit generating, therefore there must be a good case to build the stadium and run it without the millstone of a FC draining all of the money out of it?
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 28, 2015 10:08:28 GMT
You seem to have counted the club's debts twice.
Ok, here's my ridiculous back of a fag packet guesses:
Cost of club = value of Mem aprox £15m, plus paying off shareholder and external debts plus £1 for the club itself. I'll give you £20m. But get immediately sell the Mem for deferred development (in the same ways as Sainsburys), or get a secured loan for full amount of Mem value, approx. £15m back. Real cost of club = £5 to 7m. Add £2m seed money.
Why would the UWE build be going up? Wage inflation is still low, fuel and materials costs have dropped like a stone due to China's problems. I see no reason for a 20% increase in costs, unless I can be persuaded otherwise. I'm sticking to £40m.
So £40 - £50m, and you've got yourself a stadium.
All of the debt is the responsibility of the present owners, they would deal with that out of their £15m. The club is worth less than nothing as it's appears to be structured in a way that means that without significant extraordinary income it will lose money every year. In fact, if I were to have that conversation with Higgs I would tell him that I wanted him to give me the club FOC and lodge funds in an account to cover at least one year's losses. Seth. We were told that the new stadium would secure the future of the FC, as we don't make any effort to fill the existing stadium I assume that the BoD don't see that as the way to deal with losses and that what secured the club was the non-football income. So, that means that the bolt-on facilities are profit generating, therefore there must be a good case to build the stadium and run it without the millstone of a FC draining all of the money out of it? I principle yes the club is worth nothing, if Higgs wanted to sell. But the rumours I have heard are that he will only sell if he has the money he has put in repaid. So I assumed that in my calculations.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,353
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Post by kingswood Polak on Sept 28, 2015 10:23:52 GMT
All of the debt is the responsibility of the present owners, they would deal with that out of their £15m. The club is worth less than nothing as it's appears to be structured in a way that means that without significant extraordinary income it will lose money every year. In fact, if I were to have that conversation with Higgs I would tell him that I wanted him to give me the club FOC and lodge funds in an account to cover at least one year's losses. Seth. We were told that the new stadium would secure the future of the FC, as we don't make any effort to fill the existing stadium I assume that the BoD don't see that as the way to deal with losses and that what secured the club was the non-football income. So, that means that the bolt-on facilities are profit generating, therefore there must be a good case to build the stadium and run it without the millstone of a FC draining all of the money out of it? I principle yes the club is worth nothing, if Higgs wanted to sell. But the rumours I have heard are that he will only sell if he has the money he has put in repaid. So I assumed that in my calculations.
Let's face it. Higgs is not going to go quietly, it's just not in him to do so. I genuinely believe he gets a huge kick out of being the boss and the perceived power that comes with that. Look at Geoff Dunford, supposedly left the club to have more time with family etc yet can't help but stir the pot, with his tweets and intimations of a book. There are others too, ex directors and their mates, who profess to be done with the club but keep on & on with social media and other manner of things. In their defence, it's never as easy just to say I am done with Rovers. I tried but failed, to stay away but so many years of support doesn't just leave you. I woukd guess that Higgs both enjoys the power but also the ability to use it as his own sort of Masons lodge. I just can't see him letting go, even if his monies were paid back in full. I think many underestimate his grip and his near pathological will to keep it. I don't think any of us mere fans will ever know the whole story but I think he is determined to hold on & only he knows what would get him to make way for new investment. I mean, it's not like we give him an hard time, other than on forums.
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Post by chippenhamgas on Sept 28, 2015 10:37:32 GMT
I principle yes the club is worth nothing, if Higgs wanted to sell. But the rumours I have heard are that he will only sell if he has the money he has put in repaid. So I assumed that in my calculations.
Let's face it. Higgs is not going to go quietly, it's just not in him to do so. I genuinely believe he gets a huge kick out of being the boss and the perceived power that comes with that. Look at Geoff Dunford, supposedly left the club to have more time with family etc yet can't help but stir the pot, with his tweets and intimations of a book. There are others too, ex directors and their mates, who profess to be done with the club but keep on & on with social media and other manner of things. In their defence, it's never as easy just to say I am done with Rovers. I tried but failed, to stay away but so many years of support doesn't just leave you. I woukd guess that Higgs both enjoys the power but also the ability to use it as his own sort of Masons lodge. I just can't see him letting go, even if his monies were paid back in full. I think many underestimate his grip and his near pathological will to keep it. I don't think any of us mere fans will ever know the whole story but I think he is determined to hold on & only he knows what would get him to make way for new investment. I mean, it's not like we give him an hard time, other than on forums.
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Post by chippenhamgas on Sept 28, 2015 10:38:49 GMT
Let's face it. Higgs is not going to go quietly, it's just not in him to do so. I genuinely believe he gets a huge kick out of being the boss and the perceived power that comes with that. Look at Geoff Dunford, supposedly left the club to have more time with family etc yet can't help but stir the pot, with his tweets and intimations of a book. There are others too, ex directors and their mates, who profess to be done with the club but keep on & on with social media and other manner of things. In their defence, it's never as easy just to say I am done with Rovers. I tried but failed, to stay away but so many years of support doesn't just leave you. I woukd guess that Higgs both enjoys the power but also the ability to use it as his own sort of Masons lodge. I just can't see him letting go, even if his monies were paid back in full. I think many underestimate his grip and his near pathological will to keep it. I don't think any of us mere fans will ever know the whole story but I think he is determined to hold on & only he knows what would get him to make way for new investment. I mean, it's not like we give him an hard time, other than on forums. you've hit the nail on the head, fan's apathy will keep him here and it will also end up killing the club, we have the board we deserve. I bet he even avoids a grilling at the sc agm.
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Post by singupgas on Sept 28, 2015 10:53:26 GMT
you've hit the nail on the head, fan's apathy will keep him here and it will also end up killing the club, we have the board we deserve. I bet he even avoids a grilling at the sc agm. Agree with you both really questions need to be asked and answered honestly..there is too much of hiding away from the fans. Uncertainty and hesitation shown by the board is only further damaging the confidence supporters have. Also regards to GD you're right, he is often popping up with comments regarding the club, quite often see his lads at the games which is fair enough they are Gasheads like us, but I don't get GD making remarks from behind the keyboard, if he can see what's wrong and wants to help the club, bloody do something about it, stirring the pot not helping and really only incites us fans.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,353
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Post by kingswood Polak on Sept 28, 2015 11:04:22 GMT
you've hit the nail on the head, fan's apathy will keep him here and it will also end up killing the club, we have the board we deserve. I bet he even avoids a grilling at the sc agm. Those who have run the club, since the move back to Bristol, have done a superb job of dividing the fans. I don't know if it was done on purpose but what we have is those who have become friendly with those directors and then, out of some kind of daft sense of loyalty, will back them even when faced with overwhelming evidence of the god awful mismanagement. The closure of official forums, twice now. Promised Q&A sessions & so much more. I try to distance myself from the pithy arguments put forward, in their defence. It seems that the line "but Nick is a gashead" is enough for many. I also know that I have become a cantankerous and cynical man and it's personal for me given that I am on a countdown. I didn't say that for pity as I know many others who have life limiting illness. I said it because it now has become much more important to me as I would love to see us in a better place, before I kick that bloody bucket. To some of us it really is life or death, as the Mrs says, it is what it is. Divide and conquer has certainly worked at our club. I feel more sorry for those generations who never saw the club getting promoted to the now championship and who have known nothing but struggle and lower leagues football. Have a look around you at the next home game & see how disproportionate the age of our fans is. We desperately need to attract the younger local support. That bothers me more than anything else.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,353
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Post by kingswood Polak on Sept 28, 2015 11:43:36 GMT
you've hit the nail on the head, fan's apathy will keep him here and it will also end up killing the club, we have the board we deserve. I bet he even avoids a grilling at the sc agm. Agree with you both really questions need to be asked and answered honestly..there is too much of hiding away from the fans. Uncertainty and hesitation shown by the board is only further damaging the confidence supporters have. Also regards to GD you're right, he is often popping up with comments regarding the club, quite often see his lads at the games which is fair enough they are Gasheads like us, but I don't get GD making remarks from behind the keyboard, if he can see what's wrong and wants to help the club, bloody do something about it, stirring the pot not helping and really only incites us fans. Not even hiding away but a TOTAL disengagement from the fans, the lifeblood of the club. People talk about the investment put into the club by Nick Higgs. Someone, a lot cleverer than I, worked out that, in the same period the chairman has put in his investment, that us mere fans have out in over 35 million. I would say that warrants some involvement and at the least some frank discussion. Yes, without the chairman there very likely would be no Rovers but we don't need that rubbed in and I found that very insulting. I don't get it why others don't feel the same. We are still, after all the crap we've had, some of the best & loyal fans you could wish for
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