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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Apr 25, 2023 20:45:41 GMT
It stinks to everyone apart those with an impaired sense of smell. You're so nice Oldie, always bringing the level of the debate down to the gutter. As I have stated, the allegations against Banks were proven to be false in the High Court. His main accuser, Caldwaler (!) admitted that her allegations were false. You and Mrs V are claiming he is guilty through association without a single shred of proof. Facts Oldie, we need facts, as you often say. Not quite right. Banks took out a libel case against Cadwalladr which he lost. The case hinged on interpretation of some words that Cadwalladr had used in a TED Talk which the judge ruled would mean that Banks had lied about breaking the law by accepting foreign funding for electoral campaigns. Cadwalladr said that she did not intend to make that allegation and accepted that it was not true. This is palpably not the same as allegations against Banks being proven to be untrue. He was the plaintiff in this case not the accused so he has not been cleared of anything. Laughably Banks lost his libel case, hopefully hitting him hard in the pocket. Looks like an excellent decision from Mrs justice Steyn to me. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61782578 |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Apr 25, 2023 20:53:01 GMT
You're so nice Oldie, always bringing the level of the debate down to the gutter. As I have stated, the allegations against Banks were proven to be false in the High Court. His main accuser, Caldwaler (!) admitted that her allegations were false. You and Mrs V are claiming he is guilty through association without a single shred of proof. Facts Oldie, we need facts, as you often say. Not quite right. Banks took out a libel case against Cadwalladr which he lost. The case hinged on interpretation of some words that Cadwalladr had used in a TED Talk which the judge ruled would mean that Banks had lied about breaking the law by accepting foreign funding for electoral campaigns. Cadwalladr said that she did not intend to make that allegation and accepted that it was not true. This is palpably not the same as allegations against Banks being proven to be untrue. He was the plaintiff in this case not the accused so he has not been cleared of anything. Laughably Banks lost his libel case, hopefully hitting him hard in the pocket. Looks like an excellent decision from Mrs justice Steyn to me. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61782578 We have been down this road so many time Mrs Smegma...it's tedious. |
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Post by Nobbygas on Apr 25, 2023 21:56:18 GMT
Ah, so you cannot be bothered to list the facts, but you're happy to accept a documentary. Righty ho. Why can't you admit that you have no facts regarding the point in question and it is just your opinion. It would save you from all your ducking and diving. Oh do shut up Nobby, it's effing boring. Watch the documentary, I have, in full. All the documented evidence you need. On the contrary I don't find it boring to once again highlight the weakness of your argument. You insist on others providing facts. I was just asking you to return the courtesy. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Apr 26, 2023 5:30:21 GMT
Oh do shut up Nobby, it's effing boring. Watch the documentary, I have, in full. All the documented evidence you need. On the contrary I don't find it boring to once again highlight the weakness of your argument. You insist on others providing facts. I was just asking you to return the courtesy. Watch the documentary |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Apr 26, 2023 5:52:42 GMT
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Apr 26, 2023 8:59:13 GMT
This is what the innocuous sounding phrase “big society” really means.
Nobby will be along in a minute to tell us that this doesn’t matter because other countries have food banks too and there has always been poverty in the Uk. The fact that it is worse here than comparable nations and getting worse whilst a handful of rich people get massively richer and the big corporations make vast profits and pay out increasing levels of dividend is irrelevant.
Hearing idiots like 30p Lee bleat about how these people need to learn to budget better and learn to cook really boils my piss
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oldie
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Post by oldie on Apr 26, 2023 10:02:58 GMT
This is what the innocuous sounding phrase “big society” really means. Nobby will be along in a minute to tell us that this doesn’t matter because other countries have food banks too and there has always been poverty in the Uk. The fact that it is worse here than comparable nations and getting worse whilst a handful of rich people get massively richer and the big corporations make vast profits and pay out increasing levels of dividend is irrelevant. Hearing idiots like 30p Lee bleat about how these people need to learn to budget better and learn to cook really boils my piss Yep. Parroting the right wing media who represent vested interests is their speciality |
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Post by Nobbygas on Apr 26, 2023 10:30:44 GMT
This is what the innocuous sounding phrase “big society” really means. Nobby will be along in a minute to tell us that this doesn’t matter because other countries have food banks too and there has always been poverty in the Uk. The fact that it is worse here than comparable nations and getting worse whilst a handful of rich people get massively richer and the big corporations make vast profits and pay out increasing levels of dividend is irrelevant. Hearing idiots like 30p Lee bleat about how these people need to learn to budget better and learn to cook really boils my piss Yep. Parroting the right wing media who represent vested interests is their speciality 'parroting right wing media'? Aren't you the one who was parroting on about watching a documentary? Oh the irony is strong with this one. Not sure where food banks come into this thread regarding a 'view from Germany'. |
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Post by Nobbygas on Apr 26, 2023 10:36:31 GMT
This is what the innocuous sounding phrase “big society” really means. Nobby will be along in a minute to tell us that this doesn’t matter because other countries have food banks too and there has always been poverty in the Uk. The fact that it is worse here than comparable nations and getting worse whilst a handful of rich people get massively richer and the big corporations make vast profits and pay out increasing levels of dividend is irrelevant. Hearing idiots like 30p Lee bleat about how these people need to learn to budget better and learn to cook really boils my piss No, I will not say that food banks do not matter. They play an important role for those that really need them. What is interesting is that you seem to adopt a 'little englander' approach to everything and you assume these problems only exist in the UK. All major countries have food banks. They are a good idea. Why do you always take the 'but it's worse here' attitude when you are probably totally unaware of what is happening in other countries? You also seem to contradict yourself by your complaint of big corporations making vast profits........yet you support the EU which is hugely favoured and beneficial to those same big corporations? I can't work that one out. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Apr 26, 2023 11:20:11 GMT
Yep. Parroting the right wing media who represent vested interests is their speciality 'parroting right wing media'? Aren't you the one who was parroting on about watching a documentary? Oh the irony is strong with this one. Not sure where food banks come into this thread regarding a 'view from Germany'. Nope. I encouraged you to watch it. You asked for evidence, it's all there. Food Banks come into it because the Spiegel piece was about conditions in Britain today. Many food banks are reporting a tripling of the number of food parcels being sent out here. Has there been an equivalent increase in Germany? |
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Post by Nobbygas on Apr 26, 2023 11:49:07 GMT
'parroting right wing media'? Aren't you the one who was parroting on about watching a documentary? Oh the irony is strong with this one. Not sure where food banks come into this thread regarding a 'view from Germany'. Nope. I encouraged you to watch it. You asked for evidence, it's all there. Food Banks come into it because the Spiegel piece was about conditions in Britain today. Many food banks are reporting a tripling of the number of food parcels being sent out here. Has there been an equivalent increase in Germany? The only information I can find is that Germany has about the same number of food distribution centres as the UK, about 2,000. German Food Banks
The report, from the BBC, does say some interesting things though: "Mr Scully said: "I suspect I was using out-of-date figures because Germany has a longer established usage of food banks, as far as I understand." The problem using this data is that it's nearly impossible to gain any comparison because it'll probably be more to do with the amount of food handed out against the number of food banks, and do people use them more than once a week etc. So just using the number of food distribution centres may be misleading. Plus, this report is from 2019. What is a 'distribution centre', which may supply a number of 'banks' etc etc. Sorry, but I don't have any links to a documentary. |
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Post by Nobbygas on Apr 26, 2023 11:54:37 GMT
This is a report from 2023. "The umbrella organization for the food banks in Germany estimates that 2 million people visited them last year — a sharp increase, about 50%, compared with the year before. Despite Germany being one of the world's richest countries, 13.8 million people there were affected by or threatened with poverty in 2022." DW 2023 report on food banks in Germany
So Germany has been using food banks for longer than in the UK, and as you can read poverty is also a big issue in Germany. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Apr 26, 2023 12:12:20 GMT
This is a report from 2023. "The umbrella organization for the food banks in Germany estimates that 2 million people visited them last year — a sharp increase, about 50%, compared with the year before. Despite Germany being one of the world's richest countries, 13.8 million people there were affected by or threatened with poverty in 2022." DW 2023 report on food banks in Germany
So Germany has been using food banks for longer than in the UK, and as you can read poverty is also a big issue in Germany. There you go. So it begs the question as to why, in relatively rich and developed western European economies, do we have such issues. Income distribution problem may I suggest? |
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Apr 26, 2023 12:57:02 GMT
This is what the innocuous sounding phrase “big society” really means. Nobby will be along in a minute to tell us that this doesn’t matter because other countries have food banks too and there has always been poverty in the Uk. The fact that it is worse here than comparable nations and getting worse whilst a handful of rich people get massively richer and the big corporations make vast profits and pay out increasing levels of dividend is irrelevant. Hearing idiots like 30p Lee bleat about how these people need to learn to budget better and learn to cook really boils my piss No, I will not say that food banks do not matter. They play an important role for those that really need them. What is interesting is that you seem to adopt a 'little englander' approach to everything and you assume these problems only exist in the UK. All major countries have food banks. They are a good idea. Why do you always take the 'but it's worse here' attitude when you are probably totally unaware of what is happening in other countries? You also seem to contradict yourself by your complaint of big corporations making vast profits........yet you support the EU which is hugely favoured and beneficial to those same big corporations? I can't work that one out. You are right on a couple of points: Our EU neighbours do have them (shame on them too) and use there is increasing It is hard to draw meaningful conclusions because the data sets vary and because the models for food banks may well vary from country to country Here is some interesting comments on foodbanks in Europe www.debatingeurope.eu/2021/10/21/why-do-we-still-need-foodbanks-in-europe/#:~:text=It%20was%20over%207%25%2C%20now,of%20more%20than%2048%2C000%20charities. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_bankA couple of points leapt out at me - Universal credit has accelerated the demand and so has the increasing gap between pay and cost of living. It stands to reason that if this is larger in the Uk than the rest of Europe then use of foodbanks will grow faster here than there. My guesstimate from the imperfect data is that there are over 3000 here compared to the 2000 you say Germany has and over 3M people need to use them. Continuing to pay people way below inflation will not only increase demand for foodbanks, but will also reduce supply to them especially in the UK model which is so reliant on donations Whether or not they are a good thing depends on whether or not you think it is right that people do not have enough money for essentials like food. Personally I find it abhorrent. Yet anoyher monstrosity imported from across the pond too. I know people who have to use them and people who volunteer in them and it is a universally demoralising experience and not one that should be celebrated as some of our hideous Government do. Do you know such people? Can I prove conclusively that things are worse here than say Germany - of course not - but you also can’t prove the opposite It is my impression that they are and I think even you would concede the facts are there to show that poverty is increasing in the UK and many more people are worse off now than in 2008. That may also be true in the rest of Europe too. |
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Cheshiregas
Global Moderator
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Post by Cheshiregas on Apr 26, 2023 13:30:17 GMT
If one wanted to be pedantic, the greater population of Germany reflects a lower number of food banks % wise per head of population.
However I find the need for them abhorrent in a so called civilised wealthy society.
I say so called with regard to the UK after hearing some of the vile rhetoric and lies from Sue Ellen Braverman on the radio this morning and the language being used in the House of Commons by MPs supporting the bill which will allow the UK to break international law.
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Post by Nobbygas on Apr 26, 2023 13:47:50 GMT
If one wanted to be pedantic, the greater population of Germany reflects a lower number of food banks % wise per head of population. However I find the need for them abhorrent in a so called civilised wealthy society. I say so called with regard to the UK after hearing some of the vile rhetoric and lies from Sue Ellen Braverman on the radio this morning and the language being used in the House of Commons by MPs supporting the bill which will allow the UK to break international law. As I said earlier, it's not wise to use the 'number of food banks' as that can be misleading. |
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Post by Nobbygas on Apr 26, 2023 13:53:42 GMT
No, I will not say that food banks do not matter. They play an important role for those that really need them. What is interesting is that you seem to adopt a 'little englander' approach to everything and you assume these problems only exist in the UK. All major countries have food banks. They are a good idea. Why do you always take the 'but it's worse here' attitude when you are probably totally unaware of what is happening in other countries? You also seem to contradict yourself by your complaint of big corporations making vast profits........yet you support the EU which is hugely favoured and beneficial to those same big corporations? I can't work that one out. You are right on a couple of points: Our EU neighbours do have them (shame on them too) and use there is increasing It is hard to draw meaningful conclusions because the data sets vary and because the models for food banks may well vary from country to country Here is some interesting comments on foodbanks in Europe www.debatingeurope.eu/2021/10/21/why-do-we-still-need-foodbanks-in-europe/#:~:text=It%20was%20over%207%25%2C%20now,of%20more%20than%2048%2C000%20charities. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_bankA couple of points leapt out at me - Universal credit has accelerated the demand and so has the increasing gap between pay and cost of living. It stands to reason that if this is larger in the Uk than the rest of Europe then use of foodbanks will grow faster here than there. My guesstimate from the imperfect data is that there are over 3000 here compared to the 2000 you say Germany has and over 3M people need to use them. Continuing to pay people way below inflation will not only increase demand for foodbanks, but will also reduce supply to them especially in the UK model which is so reliant on donations Whether or not they are a good thing depends on whether or not you think it is right that people do not have enough money for essentials like food. Personally I find it abhorrent. Yet anoyher monstrosity imported from across the pond too. I know people who have to use them and people who volunteer in them and it is a universally demoralising experience and not one that should be celebrated as some of our hideous Government do. Do you know such people? Can I prove conclusively that things are worse here than say Germany - of course not - but you also can’t prove the opposite It is my impression that they are and I think even you would concede the facts are there to show that poverty is increasing in the UK and many more people are worse off now than in 2008. That may also be true in the rest of Europe too. "Can I prove conclusively that things are worse here than say Germany - of course not - but you also can’t prove the opposite" - I'm not trying to prove anything, just stating the facts as I know them. |
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Apr 26, 2023 14:14:27 GMT
Facts in themselves don’t prove anything. There has to be analysis and interpretation of them to draw sensible and meaningful conclusions which is usually subjective rather than objective.
The danger with facts is that people can be selective over which ones they use (we are probably all guilty of that) either accidentally or deliberately. Also people may have a tendency to correlate two or more facts to produce an invalid conclusion. Have seen this so many times in my life that it is not funny
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Apr 26, 2023 14:50:24 GMT
In our early years we're usually taught that being right is a good thing, and being wrong is, well, wrong. Our self-esteem makes it difficult to consider two things separately. There are some who are ashamed of being wrong and urged to strive to be right. But then, many posts are nuanced, so if we can’t be entirely right, we can be more right than others. Or at least a bit right. Right? Well indeed. |
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Post by Nobbygas on Apr 26, 2023 15:03:48 GMT
In our early years we're usually taught that being right is a good thing, and being wrong is, well, wrong. Our self-esteem makes it difficult to consider two things separately. There are some who are ashamed of being wrong and urged to strive to be right. But then, many posts are nuanced, so if we can’t be entirely right, we can be more right than others. Or at least a bit right. Right? You've posted the exact same thing before. Why are you posting it again? |
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