Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Mar 21, 2023 16:07:05 GMT
Ukraine were upfront about men in an age grouping being banned from leaving the country. As you would expect for a nation that is facing an illegal aggressive invasion of their sovereign territory. You previously said that you didnt remember the border being closed but you now seem to accept that it was closed to men between 18 and 60 ? My apologies on that one, I didn't recall at the time, but yes it was closed to conscript men of age. |
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Mar 21, 2023 16:11:50 GMT
I still can't find anything about men being dragged from cars, bar one dodgy freelance journalist running away whilst other journalists stayed. Was reported on BBC radio 4 at the time,they probably said 'removed' or 'taken' from cars, I remember them interviewing women who's husbands had been stopped from leaving Ukraine. So you can't find anything OK, just admit it. As you love to point out we all forget things...... |
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Mar 21, 2023 16:22:35 GMT
You say 'I don't understand why women without children were allowed'. So you are happy for non-combatants not to be given the chance to leave, to be targeted and bombed [as Russia has targeted civilians, hospitals and infrastructure to drive down morale] or I presume you mean for equality sake they should be conscripted to be sent to the front to fight like the men and if necessary be killed? You do know women are volunteering for just that... Well the men were non-combatants too until they were pressed. Yes,women are equal to men (sorry if that upsets you) in many countries they have front line combat roles,if men can be conscripted so should women unless they have children. Not all of the men who were conscripted would go to the front line, the older ones probably have support roles I dont see why women cant do the same, dont you think that women are up to that ? - pathetic sarcasm, and totally unnecessary. Why would it offend me? I have always treated women as equals especially when I have been in leadership roles. You know nothing about me but choose to adopt a superior air. Sad. I have two female cousins who have served frontline as medics and one who suffered PTSD because of it, and I have male cousins who have served frontline so you can get off your high horse. Other family members have served over the years in roles I wouldn't discuss with you. In the normal course of action in most modern conflicts, full time and reservists are called up first and they tend in the majority of cases to be male. Females have then played catch up. Many Ukrainian women are fighting frontline and lost their lives. The fact you want to turn this into a female versus male discussion says more about you. I appreciate you want to defend the Russian aggression, but attacking me on points of principle when you nothing about my views on them is very sad. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 924
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Post by trymer on Mar 21, 2023 16:28:41 GMT
Was reported on BBC radio 4 at the time,they probably said 'removed' or 'taken' from cars, I remember them interviewing women who's husbands had been stopped from leaving Ukraine. So you can't find anything OK, just admit it. As you love to point out we all forget things...... I havent forgotten ... Try reading the New York Times article from last year, 'Ukraines draft dodgers'.....then ask yourself 'if men can leave Ukraine why are they paying to cross into places like Moldova (and Romania)' ? |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 924
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Post by trymer on Mar 21, 2023 16:45:04 GMT
Well the men were non-combatants too until they were pressed. Yes,women are equal to men (sorry if that upsets you) in many countries they have front line combat roles,if men can be conscripted so should women unless they have children. Not all of the men who were conscripted would go to the front line, the older ones probably have support roles I dont see why women cant do the same, dont you think that women are up to that ? - pathetic sarcasm, and totally unnecessary. Why would it offend me? I have always treated women as equals especially when I have been in leadership roles. You know nothing about me but choose to adopt a superior air. Sad. I have two female cousins who have served frontline as medics and one who suffered PTSD because of it, and I have male cousins who have served frontline so you can get off your high horse. Other family members have served over the years in roles I wouldn't discuss with you. In the normal course of action in most modern conflicts, full time and reservists are called up first and they tend in the majority of cases to be male. Females have then played catch up. Many Ukrainian women are fighting frontline and lost their lives. The fact you want to turn this into a female versus male discussion says more about you. I appreciate you want to defend the Russian aggression, but attacking me on points of principle when you nothing about my views on them is very sad. You sound rattled, am I not allowed to question your posts ? you didnt accept that women should be conscripted you still havent said why. I have no need to turn this into a female v male discussion so dont try and put me in the wrong,I was the one who stated 'that women are equal to men' and there are some women who can do more than a lot of men. As for your last line about me wanting to defend Russian aggression I think that you must be a bit unhinged. |
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Mar 21, 2023 16:45:43 GMT
So you can't find anything OK, just admit it. As you love to point out we all forget things...... I havent forgotten ... Try reading the New York Times article from last year, 'Ukraines draft dodgers'.....then ask yourself 'if men can leave Ukraine why are they paying to cross into places like Moldova (and Romania)' ? To quote - The draft dodgers are the vast exception. That makes it all the more complicated for them — morally, socially and practically. Ukrainian society has been mobilized for war against a much bigger enemy, and countless Ukrainians without military experience have volunteered for the fight. To maximize its forces, the Ukrainian government has taken the extreme step of prohibiting men 18 to 60 from leaving, with few exceptions. The guy quoted about his bad eyesight wouldn't have been sent to the frontline anyway. Myroslav Hai, an official with Ukraine’s military reserve, conceded, “There are people who evade mobilization, but their share in comparison with volunteers is not so large.” Other Ukrainian officials said men ideologically or religiously opposed to war could serve in another way, for example as cooks or drivers. - Bit different to Putin's Russia! Numbers of people will always try to avoid conflict for whatever reason, fear, conscience, etc., in fact probably at least 250,000 Russian males have fled. [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/where-have-russians-been-fleeing-since-mobilisation-began-2022-10-06/] so it's not just a Ukrainian thing that you make it out to be. |
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Mar 21, 2023 16:53:22 GMT
'Yes, women are equal to men (sorry if that upsets you)' - pathetic sarcasm, and totally unnecessary. Why would it offend me? I have always treated women as equals especially when I have been in leadership roles. You know nothing about me but choose to adopt a superior air. Sad. I have two female cousins who have served frontline as medics and one who suffered PTSD because of it, and I have male cousins who have served frontline so you can get off your high horse. Other family members have served over the years in roles I wouldn't discuss with you. In the normal course of action in most modern conflicts, full time and reservists are called up first and they tend in the majority of cases to be male. Females have then played catch up. Many Ukrainian women are fighting frontline and lost their lives. The fact you want to turn this into a female versus male discussion says more about you. I appreciate you want to defend the Russian aggression, but attacking me on points of principle when you nothing about my views on them is very sad. am I not allowed to question your posts ? you didnt accept that women should be conscripted you still havent said why. I have no need to turn this into a female v male discussion so dont try and put me in the wrong,I was the one who stated 'that women are equal to men' and there are some women who can do more than a lot of men. As for your last line about me wanting to defend Russian aggression I think that you must be a bit unhinged.You lost your argument when you started it making personal about views on women I don't even hold. I am not rattled. Attack the post not the poster. You seem rattled because you did turn it into a women vs male issue and now you are back tracking. It's you that's making it personal. I have no objection to women being conscripted. I said 'I presume you mean for equality sake they should be conscripted to be sent to the front to fight like the men and if necessary be killed? You do know women are volunteering for just that...You jumped to that conclusion, simply because I won't don't agree with you. You are twisting it to make as if I said they shouldn't be conscripted. Very Putinesque. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 924
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Post by trymer on Mar 21, 2023 16:55:55 GMT
I havent forgotten ... Try reading the New York Times article from last year, 'Ukraines draft dodgers'.....then ask yourself 'if men can leave Ukraine why are they paying to cross into places like Moldova (and Romania)' ? Numbers of people will always try to avoid conflict for whatever reason, fear, conscience, etc., in fact probably at least 250,000 Russian males have fled. [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/where-have-russians-been-fleeing-since-mobilisation-began-2022-10-06/] so it's not just a Ukrainian thing that you make it out to be. 'its not just a Ukrainian thing that you make it out to be'....why do you make things up ? we are talking about Ukrainian conscripts and people trying to evade the press so why would I mention other countries drafts ? |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 924
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Post by trymer on Mar 21, 2023 17:06:11 GMT
You sound rattled, am I not allowed to question your posts ? you didnt accept that women should be conscripted you still havent said why. I have no need to turn this into a female v male discussion so dont try and put me in the wrong,I was the one who stated 'that women are equal to men' and there are some women who can do more than a lot of men. As for your last line about me wanting to defend Russian aggression I think that you must be a bit unhinged. You lost your argument when you started it making personal about views on women I don't even hold. I am not rattled. Attack the post not the poster. You seem rattled because you did turn it into a women vs male issue and now you are back tracking. It's you that's making it personal. I have no objection to women being conscripted. I said 'I presume you mean for equality sake they should be conscripted to be sent to the front to fight like the men and if necessary be killed? You do know women are volunteering for just that...You jumped to that conclusion, simply because I won't don't agree with you. You are twisting it to make as if I said they shouldn't be conscripted. Very Putinesque. Attack the post not the poster...try reading your last few posts ! No I am not back tracking anywhere,I have made my point that women are equal to men. I wonder if other people who read these threads (if anyone does) can see what you do wnen you accuse people of being 'sad' 'pathetic' 'on their high horse' 'Putinesque' etc etc whilst constantly beefing yourself up so that you have the moral high ground (in your mind anyway). |
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Mar 21, 2023 17:14:24 GMT
You lost your argument when you started it making personal about views on women I don't even hold. I am not rattled. Attack the post not the poster. You seem rattled because you did turn it into a women vs male issue and now you are back tracking. It's you that's making it personal. I have no objection to women being conscripted. I said 'I presume you mean for equality sake they should be conscripted to be sent to the front to fight like the men and if necessary be killed? You do know women are volunteering for just that...You jumped to that conclusion, simply because I won't don't agree with you. You are twisting it to make as if I said they shouldn't be conscripted. Very Putinesque. Attack the post not the poster...try reading your last few posts ! No I am not back tracking anywhere,I have made my point that women are equal to men. I wonder if other people who read these threads (if anyone does) can see what you do wnen you accuse people of being 'sad' 'pathetic' 'on their high horse' 'Putinesque' etc etc whilst constantly beefing yourself up so that you have the moral high ground (in your mind anyway). Pot, kettle, black.... You see what you want to see. Happy for anyone to read my posts. You are the one who started getting personal making up my views on women. There are none so blind as those who will not see. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 924
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Post by trymer on Mar 21, 2023 17:27:40 GMT
Attack the post not the poster...try reading your last few posts ! No I am not back tracking anywhere,I have made my point that women are equal to men. I wonder if other people who read these threads (if anyone does) can see what you do wnen you accuse people of being 'sad' 'pathetic' 'on their high horse' 'Putinesque' etc etc whilst constantly beefing yourself up so that you have the moral high ground (in your mind anyway). Pot, kettle, black.... You see what you want to see. Happy for anyone to read my posts. You are the one who started getting personal making up my views on women. There are none so blind as those who will not see. Lets hope they read the post about me defending Russian aggression and the one about your families roles in conflicts.....but you dont want to talk about it. |
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Mar 21, 2023 17:35:00 GMT
Pot, kettle, black.... You see what you want to see. Happy for anyone to read my posts. You are the one who started getting personal making up my views on women. There are none so blind as those who will not see. Lets hope they read the post about me defending Russian aggression and the one about your families roles in conflicts.....but you dont want to talk about it. As I say, I have no problem. And as you are being selective I actually said Other family members have served over the years in roles I wouldn't discuss with you. |
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Post by Nobbygas on Mar 22, 2023 8:46:20 GMT
trymer is just trying to deflect from the real issues. This is a war. There will be bad things done by both sides. It is not always a bad guy v good guy scenario. Just read some of the word's from Cheshiregas....."There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us".
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 924
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Post by trymer on Mar 22, 2023 10:24:57 GMT
trymer is just trying to deflect from the real issues. This is a war. There will be bad things done by both sides. It is not always a bad guy v good guy scenario. Just read some of the word's from Cheshiregas....."There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us". Not trying to deflect from anything,just pointing out what ltCol Kupol had said,there was some interesting stuff in the articles relating to him, the numbers of troops trained in EU and Britain who (might be) ear marked for the spring offensive. I try to be neutral when reading about any wars,its not like picking a team to win a a game which is why i can agree with 'not always a bad guy v good guy scenario'. I dont intend to read any more from Cheshiregash, I have had enough of his fantasist nonsense,at least he isnt going to tell me any war stories...I feel like a pools winner. |
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Mar 22, 2023 10:52:07 GMT
trymer is just trying to deflect from the real issues. This is a war. There will be bad things done by both sides. It is not always a bad guy v good guy scenario. Just read some of the word's from Cheshiregas....."There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us". Not trying to deflect from anything,just pointing out what ltCol Kupol had said,there was some interesting stuff in the articles relating to him, the numbers of troops trained in EU and Britain who (might be) ear marked for the spring offensive. I try to be neutral when reading about any wars,its not like picking a team to win a a game which is why i can agree with 'not always a bad guy v good guy scenario'. I dont intend to read any more from Cheshiregash, I have had enough of his fantasist nonsense,at least he isnt going to tell me any war stories...I feel like a pools winner.That attempt at puerile humour is both pathetic, unnecessary, insulting, sad and unwarranted. That speaks volumes about the kind of person you are when you lose your argument. No more to be said. |
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eppinggas
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Ian Alexander
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Post by eppinggas on Mar 22, 2023 12:49:31 GMT
Waiting for Nobbygas for meaningful updates. Re:China. China does what's best for China. And I believe they have a 50 year rolling plan to increase their geo-political influence. Morals, deaths of civilians, mass starvation doesn't come into it. Sad. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 924
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Post by trymer on Mar 22, 2023 19:15:18 GMT
Waiting for Nobbygas for meaningful updates. Re:China. China does what's best for China. And I believe they have a 50 year rolling plan to increase their geo-political influence. Morals, deaths of civilians, mass starvation doesn't come into it. Sad. I have an update for you. I saw the pictures of a Canadian Leopard 2 being delivered to the Ukrainians today, not the newer up armoured version ,no these are the same or similar to the Leopard 2's that Turkey lost so many of in Syria. I see that the Canadian Leopard 2s were originally bought by the Dutch....between 1981 and 86 ! After seeing all those old Russian tanks whacked last year its going to be interesting to see how this lot of old junk fares, Ukraine is going to end up as a massive scrapyard at this rate. |
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Post by Nobbygas on Mar 22, 2023 23:45:28 GMT
Waiting for Nobbygas for meaningful updates. Re:China. China does what's best for China. And I believe they have a 50 year rolling plan to increase their geo-political influence. Morals, deaths of civilians, mass starvation doesn't come into it. Sad. I have an update for you. I saw the pictures of a Canadian Leopard 2 being delivered to the Ukrainians today, not the newer up armoured version ,no these are the same or similar to the Leopard 2's that Turkey lost so many of in Syria. I see that the Canadian Leopard 2s were originally bought by the Dutch....between 1981 and 86 ! After seeing all those old Russian tanks whacked last year its going to be interesting to see how this lot of old junk fares, Ukraine is going to end up as a massive scrapyard at this rate. Yes, the Leopard's do have a big question mark regarding their survivability. We know that they are not in the same class as the Abrams or Challenger 2. However, there are a lot of them readily available. I'm pretty certain that the Ukes are very happy to receive them rather than nothing. The year of purchase in not important as it depends on what upgrades have been fitted since. Just one point. Tanks are not supposed to come up against other tanks. They tend to avoid that scenario if possible. Tanks would prefer to go after infantry or soft skinned vehicles, where they can inflicted heavy damage. That is really their function, and not to fight other tanks. If we do see tank v tank then history has shown us that the Russian tanks will be devastated by the tanks from the West. That's the outcome from every Russian v Western tank action, ever. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 924
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Post by trymer on Mar 23, 2023 15:33:50 GMT
I have an update for you. I saw the pictures of a Canadian Leopard 2 being delivered to the Ukrainians today, not the newer up armoured version ,no these are the same or similar to the Leopard 2's that Turkey lost so many of in Syria. I see that the Canadian Leopard 2s were originally bought by the Dutch....between 1981 and 86 ! After seeing all those old Russian tanks whacked last year its going to be interesting to see how this lot of old junk fares, Ukraine is going to end up as a massive scrapyard at this rate. Yes, the Leopard's do have a big question mark regarding their survivability. We know that they are not in the same class as the Abrams or Challenger 2. However, there are a lot of them readily available. I'm pretty certain that the Ukes are very happy to receive them rather than nothing. The year of purchase in not important as it depends on what upgrades have been fitted since. Just one point. Tanks are not supposed to come up against other tanks. They tend to avoid that scenario if possible. Tanks would prefer to go after infantry or soft skinned vehicles, where they can inflicted heavy damage. That is really their function, and not to fight other tanks. If we do see tank v tank then history has shown us that the Russian tanks will be devastated by the tanks from the West. That's the outcome from every Russian v Western tank action, ever. Quite a few questions about the Abrams too. Yes there are a lot of them (over 2000 built) but quite a lot of them are totally shot,they could be sent back to manufacturer for complete rebuilds but that isnt going to happen. You say that year of purchase isnt important but year of manufacture is,these tanks had over 20 years of use and heavy tanks cross country puts a lot of strain on moving parts,then stick them in a warehouse for a few years and you have a good few problems. A lot of the stored ones would have been unserviceable before they went into store and anything of use that could be removed would have been,probably some have been cannibalised, very minimal maintenance (if any),deteteriation to rubber seals,wiring and sights. Apparently Spain have 108 Leopard 2s (early ones) in storeage,53 are repairable 33 of which need extensive work, I doubt that other countries stock is much different. The only upgraded Leopard 2s promised are German, they could supply more. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 924
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Post by trymer on Mar 23, 2023 15:44:11 GMT
I have an update for you. I saw the pictures of a Canadian Leopard 2 being delivered to the Ukrainians today, not the newer up armoured version ,no these are the same or similar to the Leopard 2's that Turkey lost so many of in Syria. I see that the Canadian Leopard 2s were originally bought by the Dutch....between 1981 and 86 ! After seeing all those old Russian tanks whacked last year its going to be interesting to see how this lot of old junk fares, Ukraine is going to end up as a massive scrapyard at this rate. Just one point. Tanks are not supposed to come up against other tanks. They tend to avoid that scenario if possible. Tanks would prefer to go after infantry or soft skinned vehicles, where they can inflicted heavy damage. That is really their function, and not to fight other tanks. If we do see tank v tank then history has shown us that the Russian tanks will be devastated by the tanks from the West. That's the outcome from every Russian v Western tank action, ever. Yes that is usually true but tanks do often come into tank v tank battles and some have been developed to counter other tanks,Conqueror was in service with BAOR really to counter the big Soviet tanks. More recently there have been tank fights in Iraq and in the Yemen v Saudi where the T90 is said to have destroyed Abrams...tbh I think some of these battles are more to do with training and personnel rather than quality of tanks,the later Leopard 2 should deal with most Russian tanks although well handled T90s could be an issue. For me though the nemesis of tanks is the anti tank missile, the Leopard 2 was probably ok against anti tank weapons in the late 70s but look how anti tank missile systems have developed since then. |
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