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Post by alftupper on Nov 6, 2021 12:06:59 GMT
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Post by lostinspace on Nov 16, 2021 13:31:16 GMT
The racial allegations aimed at the club will certainly have a few," old guard" board members and players up and down the country getting cold feet and be subject to some serious questions, fair play to the fella for bringing it out into the open, a certain prolific batsman of the county IMO I think could be wondering about his past narrative on this issue
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 16, 2021 14:47:08 GMT
This is a long overdue reckoning. The culture within professional cricket in this country is toxic in so many ways.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 16, 2021 16:18:36 GMT
This is a long overdue reckoning. The culture within professional cricket in this country is toxic in so many ways. I can imagine that could be the case. What about your experience of club cricket irish? A few points to make: 1. Yorkshire have been caught out as being a very bad case. Just ask Viv Richards what his experience of the North Terrace at Headingly was like in the 70s and early 80s. They gave him such abuse for his colour. So a sense of karma I think. 2. So far, Yorkshire, Essex and Northamptonshire have been mentioned. Lots more to come I would have thought. Any professional cricket club would, I hope, be investigating by opening conversations with their players as to whether there is a problem in their own club. If they are not doing that now they are waiting for the inevitable allegations to start. I hope Somerset CCC are doing that at least. I don’t believe our supporters are much different than others. Though I think our staff are very different and our leaders are but after this I hope they at least are being pro-active in finding out. (We like to save our abuse for the privileged, posh-boys from Surrey! Joke btw.) 3. Listening to it today. How did Arthur, Moxon and others get away with saying they didn’t want to appear before this committee? I thought you had to if asked. All it does though is show they have something to hide. 4. I think this is the tip of the iceberg. English cricket will be dealing with this and it’s ramifications for years to come. I’ve always said that the ECB are useless at dealing with major issues that need resolving, and I’ve usually banged on about the balance between white and red ball cricket and the scheduling of the domestic programme. That will look like ‘an easy-win situation’ compared to what this issue will/ can do to the game. I almost laughed when I heard Tom Harrison’s reaction to it today, “we will learn lessons from this.” I laughed because yesterday I was talking to a cricket loving friend and we were talking about what the ECB response would be and we said they’ll come out with some platitudes about it being a ‘journey and that the ECB would learnt lessons from it.’ We were joking but lo and behold what does Harrison come out and say.... I expect major change in the ECB within two years, esp as funding and income streams will disappear if it doesn’t change. That will concentrate the mind more so than a group of middle aged Somerset supporters giving Harrison a hard time over ‘the 100 Competition’ at an end of play Q and A. 5. And whilst it is all going on I hope the perpetrators of this racism are shown up for what they are and what they’ve been over a period of time. I hope any investigation comes down hard on individuals and corporate groups who have been responsible for this. But somehow I think we will be fobbed off with excuses about it being ‘impossible’ or ‘legal reasons why we can’t...’ in other words, I fear for a whitewash. 6. And I suspect that some very high level, world-famous players will be very concerned at what the following days newspapers will have in them. Michael Vaughan and Gary Ballance and after today this Yorkshire /Hampshire cricket who assaulted Rafeeq some years ago may be finding it hard to recover from what’s been said. Even Joe Root has looked less than assured since he came out with his statement. As has been said many many times it’s always the attempted cover up that will do you in the end. If YCCC had only done the right thing, investigate, publish, apologise and then deal with the perpetrators in an open and transparent manner the impact would have been much less damaging. They would have shown themselves in a far better light and I get the impression that Hutton wanted to do that but his committee not so much. As it is, it is the cover up that found them out. Anyway, irish, with your club connections in an urban area, you must have many diverse groups who play the game and presumably your club will have a multitude of policies, protocols and statements to cover the equality and diversity agenda. What’s your take? |
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 16, 2021 16:19:28 GMT
And perhaps not only the YCCC AGM? |
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Nov 16, 2021 19:00:31 GMT
It was a harrowing watch. I thought Rafiq was a very credible witness and I felt both sympathy and admiration for the bloke. That it took a man losing a child and his professional contract as a cricketer to work out that he was subject to prolonged, systematic racial abuse is evidence that this is a very deep rooted problem. The fact that cricket needed someone with nothing to lose to feel empowered to put his head above the parapet is a travesty. How some of the individuals named today move forward with their careers, I don't know. What is the right course of action here? Sacking Gary Ballance? Feels like a bit of a scapegoat to me and individuals clearly aren't the extent of the problem, but given that Yorkshire have done everything they can to sweep this under the carpet and discredit Rafiq, I think they may have no choice but to discipline individuals as well as overhaul the culture. Certainly Moxon and Gale will have to go and should have been removed months ago.
I though Yorkshire's former chairman seemed like a decent, honest bloke but a hapless leader. He felt Moxon and Arthur and the Head of HR had to go but failed to convince the Trustees of the Colin Graves estate that course of action was appropriate. That is clearly a moment for strong leadership and he should have resigned on the spot and made a very loud noise about how ineffective Yorkshire's corporate structure was. He stated that he didn't know much about the character of senior people at Yorkshire because he couldn't meet them due to the pandemic. That isn't good enough. He should have made it his business to scope people out virtually. I find it staggering that he had no knowledge of a 2015 report into racism at Yorkshire.
The ECB should have been finished a long time ago. Harrison is politician who doesn't engage with fans and only cares about the balance sheet and bottom line. Taking a bonus with all of this going and having made redundancies and cut the pay of employees last year is abhorrent. The ECB should have commissioned a wide ranging, independent enquiry at least six months ago. It should still do so in my opinion. It should also set up an independent body to deal with complaints of racism, bullying, harassment and sexism. It has to do more to restore the trust of players and spectators of all backgrounds.
Someone mentioned Joe Root. This is where we all have to do some soul searching in my opinion. I can categorically state that I have never turned a blind eye to someone calling another person a racist name. Root has questions to answer on that front. However, have their been times when someone has said something inappropriate and I have turned a blind eye? Not to the same extent, but yes. Definitely. I bet we can all relate to some of the following: the racist uncle that you roll your eyes at? The inappropriate joke at the pub or in the changing room? Not stepping in when someone is taking the p*ss out of someone's weight? Some of the stuff written on this forum over the last year with regard to the BLM movement has been ignorant at best in my opinion. At time I have challenged it, but at other times it has worn me down and I have just ignored it. That is not so different to Root failing to challenge his mate is it? It's not enough to just not be racist anymore.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 16, 2021 19:34:38 GMT
Well said jack. Agree with all of what you’ve said. Your last paragraph really resonated. Im not sure whether this Committee meeting today was a one event or part of something longer but perhaps things will now start to change now it’s getting out into the open.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 17, 2021 20:22:34 GMT
This is a long overdue reckoning. The culture within professional cricket in this country is toxic in so many ways. I can imagine that could be the case. What about your experience of club cricket irish? A few points to make: 1. Yorkshire have been caught out as being a very bad case. Just ask Viv Richards what his experience of the North Terrace at Headingly was like in the 70s and early 80s. They gave him such abuse for his colour. So a sense of karma I think. 2. So far, Yorkshire, Essex and Northamptonshire have been mentioned. Lots more to come I would have thought. Any professional cricket club would, I hope, be investigating by opening conversations with their players as to whether there is a problem in their own club. If they are not doing that now they are waiting for the inevitable allegations to start. I hope Somerset CCC are doing that at least. I don’t believe our supporters are much different than others. Though I think our staff are very different and our leaders are but after this I hope they at least are being pro-active in finding out. (We like to save our abuse for the privileged, posh-boys from Surrey! Joke btw.) 3. Listening to it today. How did Arthur, Moxon and others get away with saying they didn’t want to appear before this committee? I thought you had to if asked. All it does though is show they have something to hide. 4. I think this is the tip of the iceberg. English cricket will be dealing with this and it’s ramifications for years to come. I’ve always said that the ECB are useless at dealing with major issues that need resolving, and I’ve usually banged on about the balance between white and red ball cricket and the scheduling of the domestic programme. That will look like ‘an easy-win situation’ compared to what this issue will/ can do to the game. I almost laughed when I heard Tom Harrison’s reaction to it today, “we will learn lessons from this.” I laughed because yesterday I was talking to a cricket loving friend and we were talking about what the ECB response would be and we said they’ll come out with some platitudes about it being a ‘journey and that the ECB would learnt lessons from it.’ We were joking but lo and behold what does Harrison come out and say.... I expect major change in the ECB within two years, esp as funding and income streams will disappear if it doesn’t change. That will concentrate the mind more so than a group of middle aged Somerset supporters giving Harrison a hard time over ‘the 100 Competition’ at an end of play Q and A. 5. And whilst it is all going on I hope the perpetrators of this racism are shown up for what they are and what they’ve been over a period of time. I hope any investigation comes down hard on individuals and corporate groups who have been responsible for this. But somehow I think we will be fobbed off with excuses about it being ‘impossible’ or ‘legal reasons why we can’t...’ in other words, I fear for a whitewash. 6. And I suspect that some very high level, world-famous players will be very concerned at what the following days newspapers will have in them. Michael Vaughan and Gary Ballance and after today this Yorkshire /Hampshire cricket who assaulted Rafeeq some years ago may be finding it hard to recover from what’s been said. Even Joe Root has looked less than assured since he came out with his statement. As has been said many many times it’s always the attempted cover up that will do you in the end. If YCCC had only done the right thing, investigate, publish, apologise and then deal with the perpetrators in an open and transparent manner the impact would have been much less damaging. They would have shown themselves in a far better light and I get the impression that Hutton wanted to do that but his committee not so much. As it is, it is the cover up that found them out. Anyway, irish, with your club connections in an urban area, you must have many diverse groups who play the game and presumably your club will have a multitude of policies, protocols and statements to cover the equality and diversity agenda. What’s your take? First of all I agree completely with everything Jack says in the other post and everything you say here too Wareham. I think that pretty much nails it and I don't have much else to add on those issues.
The main issue with cricket is that it is woefully governed and embedded in an old boys network whose first instinct is to protect themselves and their pretty cushy existances. As often happens in those situation it's very easy for people to think themselves invulnerable and untouched by the need to change. That issue really is something that infects the game right across the piece in my experience. Just the total incompetence and old boys network of the way they operate - good example, Mike Gatting was appointed Head of Recreatonal Cricket. He knows absolutely nothing about recreational cricket but needed a job and so there you go....That's how it works. On the pitch and on coaching staffs there's a certain degree of meritocracy based on performance but beyond that it's just who you know. The parade of incompetency and time serving I've dealt with at committee, executive and middle management level at Glos, Somerset and no Lancs is extraordinary. I'm not saying there aren't some good people - just that they get through depite the system not because of it.
Unfortunately one of the consequences of these networks is that their norms of behaviour become the norms of behaviour within the game and that is where the problems come because there is a huge tendency to scapegoat and pass the buck downwards (as we've seen again this week). Casual prejudice is likely inevitable in environments that are so lacking in basic competence and governance because outsiders of any kind will be viewed as a threat.
To answer the question - at club level the situation is complicated and mixed. I also find it varies up here compared with the Bristol. When it comes to race I would say that the atmosphere up here is more inclusive and less ghettoised. It's pretty unusual you come across a team that is all white and most people understand that if it wasn't for the South Asian community a lot more clubs would have folded in the North West as white working class cricket playing numbers have collapsed (something else the ECB has ignored for years). There are tensions and they are to do with a clash between a business model that often relies on drinking and a playing membership that increasingly doesn't drink. So in my immediate area 4 clubs have folded in the last 15 years and another is on the brink because of this issue. Basically, what happens is that overtime you get an elderly working class irish drinking membership that controls the club and has ncreasingly little interest in cricket and a largely Muslim playing membership that has no interest in drinking. My club shows that a bit of imagination can solve this issue (not least you don't need to have that as your business model and we don't) but if there's no incentive to change eventually those interests come into clash. A classic thing here is that the committee will sell off part of the ground for housing making cricket unviable in order to continue to subsidise the booze behind bar for a few more years. There are several 'cricket clubs' round here that now only exist as bars which is just bizarre really. So there is that as an obvious issue and it creates unneccesary deserts for cricket in areas where there is no shortage of potential cricketers. This is exactly the kind of thing the ECB/Lanacashire could do something about if they had the will to do so. There's a fatalism about 'inner city' cricket and it's self-serving. If you have cricketers you can have cricket clubs - it just needs a bit of imagination about new ways to make it sustainable and a willingness among the authorities to put the hard yards in but that narrative stops them.
As far the actual cricket playing community is concerned I find it much more inclusive up here than in the Westcountry. I think there are a number of reasons for this. There are too many clubs so everyone is desperate for players which means incusivity is a must really. The attitude is much more hardnosed on the field so you don't get some of the hypocrisy you sometimes get in the Westcountry in my experience about 'Asians not playing the game the right way' (which I've heard a lot playing in Bristol) because Northern League cricket doesn't put itself on an ethical pedestal in anything like the same way. As a result of that there's not so many ethnically exclusive teams which I think is a big problem with the way cricket evolved particularly in Bristol. Those teams emerged because people of unwelcoming attitudes initially but then that became the culture within the cricket community in Bristol to parcel out teams into different ethnic groups. That doesn't happen anywhere near as much up here.
I could go on for ages but let's just say that in my experience (and I think Rafiq got at this a little bit) there's a big issue at the point at which the professional and recreational games mix and it's just as much to do with class as it is race. I've seen this play out time and again. You have 2 promising players - one is slightly better than the other but his parents don't speak English, he doesn't have the right boots, he has to take buses to games and the other lad's Dad is well spoken, drives him everywhere, can pay the coaches for additional one to one sessions etc so they pick the less good one because he's going to be easier and they'll make more money that way. You see that happen all the time. Now imagine what it's like for one or two 'difficult but talented' ones who do get through or can't be ignored because they're simply so good. Are they likely to feel welcome in a culture like that? There's the issue in a nutshell and I suspect that is what has traumatised Rafiq over such a long period of time as much as anything else.
Finally, I've no doubt there are issues everywhere but it is important to highlight where cases are particularly nasty and Yorkshire are an example of particularly nasty. On and off the field they have a massive cultural problem in this area that cuts through cricket across te county. I've heard things at Yorkshire matches that you would just not here in public anywhere else anymore. It's indicative that there's so few young Asian players in their youth system given that 2/3rds of the recreational players in the county are of Asian descent - that should be a disgrace and a huge potential untapped talent base. Yeah - they have massive problems.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 17, 2021 21:29:06 GMT
Thanks irish. Must have taken some time to compose but really informative, if worrying. 👍
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Nobbygas
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Post by Nobbygas on Nov 18, 2021 8:22:15 GMT
Is one of the main problems with inner city cricket the fact that you need such a large area to play on?
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Post by Gastafari on Nov 18, 2021 14:01:05 GMT
I am in no way trying to discredit Azeem Rafiq's claims.
However I do find it odd that if the abuse he allegedly received was so 'inhumane', why did he leave and come back?
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Nov 18, 2021 17:02:35 GMT
I am in no way trying to discredit Azeem Rafiq's claims. However I do find it odd that if the abuse he allegedly received was so 'inhumane', why did he leave and come back? You are absolutely discrediting him and your question suggests you are doing so without fully engaging with his testimony. He was asked this question directly by a member of the select committee. Taken from the BBC live text. Rafiq has been asked why he returned to Yorkshire for a second spell with the county. "It's something I've been asked a lot. "In my first spell, there were things that happened that I didn't see for what they were. I was in denial. "In 2016 I started well and I was training with Derbyshire. They didn't have the finances to offer me a contract. I was in a position where putting food on the table was difficult, so that is why I went back. "For a person of colour to accept you are being treated differently because of your race or religion is tough to take. You are always asking, 'why?' "I didn't want to believe it. After the loss of my son, I couldn't look the other way." |
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Post by Gastafari on Nov 18, 2021 17:38:45 GMT
I am in no way trying to discredit Azeem Rafiq's claims. However I do find it odd that if the abuse he allegedly received was so 'inhumane', why did he leave and come back? You are absolutely discrediting him and your question suggests you are doing so without fully engaging with his testimony. He was asked this question directly by a member of the select committee. Taken from the BBC live text. Rafiq has been asked why he returned to Yorkshire for a second spell with the county. "It's something I've been asked a lot. "In my first spell, there were things that happened that I didn't see for what they were. I was in denial. "In 2016 I started well and I was training with Derbyshire. They didn't have the finances to offer me a contract. I was in a position where putting food on the table was difficult, so that is why I went back. "For a person of colour to accept you are being treated differently because of your race or religion is tough to take. You are always asking, 'why?' "I didn't want to believe it. After the loss of my son, I couldn't look the other way." I am not discrediting him at all. It was a genuine question, also a bit of an observation. I myself am a 'Person Of Colour' and if I received 'inhumane' abuse at my workplace or anywhere else, I wouldn't go anywhere near it again. I just find it odd that considering the 'inhumane' abuse, apparently goes as far back as to when he was in his teens, he still went back there, to endure it again. |
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Nov 18, 2021 17:55:29 GMT
You are absolutely discrediting him and your question suggests you are doing so without fully engaging with his testimony. He was asked this question directly by a member of the select committee. Taken from the BBC live text. Rafiq has been asked why he returned to Yorkshire for a second spell with the county. "It's something I've been asked a lot. "In my first spell, there were things that happened that I didn't see for what they were. I was in denial. "In 2016 I started well and I was training with Derbyshire. They didn't have the finances to offer me a contract. I was in a position where putting food on the table was difficult, so that is why I went back. "For a person of colour to accept you are being treated differently because of your race or religion is tough to take. You are always asking, 'why?' "I didn't want to believe it. After the loss of my son, I couldn't look the other way." I am not discrediting him at all. It was a genuine question, also a bit of an observation. I myself am a 'Person Of Colour' and if I received 'inhumane' abuse at my workplace or anywhere else, I wouldn't go anywhere near it again. I just find it odd that considering the 'inhumane' abuse, apparently goes as far back as to when he was in his teens, he still went back there, to endure it again. Why 'inhumane' not inhumane? Many domestic abuse victims go back to an abusive partner. Still doesn't excuse the behaviour of the perpetrator. |
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Post by Gastafari on Nov 18, 2021 18:05:52 GMT
I am not discrediting him at all. It was a genuine question, also a bit of an observation. I myself am a 'Person Of Colour' and if I received 'inhumane' abuse at my workplace or anywhere else, I wouldn't go anywhere near it again. I just find it odd that considering the 'inhumane' abuse, apparently goes as far back as to when he was in his teens, he still went back there, to endure it again. Why 'inhumane' not inhumane? Many domestic abuse victims go back to an abusive partner. Still doesn't excuse the behaviour of the perpetrator. I was quoting him. Indeed they do, and indeed it doesn't. |
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Post by Gastafari on Nov 18, 2021 19:44:39 GMT
Actually I will discredit him now.
Rafiq is now grovelling for Anti Semetic messages he himself sent.
No sympathy whatsoever.
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Post by alftupper on Nov 18, 2021 22:08:09 GMT
Actually I will discredit him now. Rafiq is now grovelling for Anti Semetic messages he himself sent. No sympathy whatsoever. Twenty centuries of prejudice, directed at the oldest Aunt Sallies in history, weren`t enough for Rafiq. He had to do his bit to perpetuate it. For him to complain about other peoples` racism, is a bit like Shane McGowan complaining about other peoples` drinking. Physician, heal thyself.
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Nobbygas
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Post by Nobbygas on Nov 19, 2021 7:22:24 GMT
You both misunderstand. He says that he is not the same person as the one who sent the texts. However, that get out clause does not apply to anyone else.
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Nov 19, 2021 7:38:39 GMT
You both misunderstand. He says that he is not the same person as the one who sent the texts. However, that get out clause does not apply to anyone else. Yes it does. Copious people have apologised for past offenses this week and people, including Rafiq have moved on. The people that I think will lose their jobs have been unapologetic and have demonstrated racism over a number of years whilst holding leadership roles. I am not going to pretend that I am not disappointed by Rafiq's abhorrent messages but a one off mistake made by a 19 year old doesn't lesson the impact of a decade of systemic and sustained racism. Having been through what he's been through, I am sure Rafiq is well aware that his words will have been incredibly hurtful to the Jewish community. If we step back from individuals for a minute, doesn't this demonstrate cricket has an even bigger problem? The resolve of administrators to stamp racism out of the game must be hardened by this. |
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Post by Gastafari on Nov 19, 2021 8:46:14 GMT
You both misunderstand. He says that he is not the same person as the one who sent the texts. However, that get out clause does not apply to anyone else. Yes it does. Copious people have apologised for past offenses this week and people, including Rafiq have moved on. The people that I think will lose their jobs have been unapologetic and have demonstrated racism over a number of years whilst holding leadership roles. I am not going to pretend that I am not disappointed by Rafiq's abhorrent messages but a one off mistake made by a 19 year old doesn't lesson the impact of a decade of systemic and sustained racism. Having been through what he's been through, I am sure Rafiq is well aware that his words will have been incredibly hurtful to the Jewish community. If we step back from individuals for a minute, doesn't this demonstrate cricket has an even bigger problem? The resolve of administrators to stamp racism out of the game must be hardened by this. Or he's been caught out for being disingenuous and insincere. In his statements he has mentioned stuff that was allegedly going on a decade ago, yet at the same time he has been found out to have been doing the exact same thing. No different to a bully complaining about being bullied. |
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