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Post by tanksfull on Jun 26, 2016 9:58:49 GMT
Of course it is not racist. However, please explain your understanding of the difference between "open door immigration" and "controlled immigration" specifically where the EU is concerned? I'm referring to the actual/practical result not the theory. Will we have less people coming in to the country? Because we currently have the highest level of employment for many, many years we will still have the same amount of immigration and substantially increase the cost of administering it. Why do we "foreign" have doctors and nurses? In the UK we already have £1.8m workers from the EU and £2m workers from the "rest of the world". If we are to grow and become richer where do we get the extra employees from? Happy to answer your question. Good to see debate on here is a lot better than was had between "respected politicians" before the vote. (What a great example of an oxymoron). I think if we just look at the Australian model - you know the previously "racist" one - where they look at a points system for who they let in. We should now apply that here - obviously we treat EU and non-EU just the same. We need SOME immigration. That's why it is great that the NHS have a number non-British doctors and nurses. We need ever more doctors and nurses to treat the ever expanding population (additional 330,00 last year). So we need to reduce that 330,00 number. A lot. We are not growing at the rate that the population is! What has average GDP growth been over the last 10 years - I'll tell you - less than 0.5%. We are not a massive growth economy - but we are a better prospect for immigrants. Our NHS can't cope. Our Schools cannot cope. Out Housing Infrastructure cannot cope. Up until the last 5 years or so I believe that net immigration has had a positive effect on the economy. It is my belief that we have now gone passed the tipping point. People who are pro-EU / pro immigration don't think that. That is where the fundamental difference lies in the IN / OUT debate. The Referendum has always been about immigration. Large swathes of the country see immigration as the single biggest problem we have. ie the Labour heartlands and largely everyone in England who doesn't actually live in London. Cameron screwed himself. Said he hadn't made up his mind until he had re-negotiated our EU position. The EU said "p*ss off". Cameron then claimed victory and that he was voting for Remain. Dead in the water right there. He also maintained that he could keep net immigration down to tens of thousands. That was a LIE. Dead in the water. As for our previous leader Blair. Signed up to open door EU immigration that has led to the the huge increase in EU immigration. He started wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya that have de-stabilised the Middle East and led to - yup you guessed it - a huge increase in non-EU immigration crisis. Thanks Tony. Happy to carry on the debate. Having made your comment in the first sentence you then threaten in your last. That was a sad ending. At present, despite coming out of the worse economic situation in history (which most other countries have not started to recover from), we have the lowest unemployment rate for years. Your comments regarding the "tipping point" are subjective and your belief, not fact. I could equally say I believe our employment rate will continue to fall. If it increases people will stop coming here as there will be no jobs for them, so where is the issue? No immigrant is taking someone's job. To discuss the dynamics of the population is a completely different argument although I'd suggest far more relevant.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,177
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Post by eppinggas on Jun 26, 2016 10:07:33 GMT
"It is my belief that we have now gone passed the tipping point". So obviously my opinion and not fact. How do we solve the big problems of NHS/Schools/Housing Infrastracture? The EU offers no solution. The Government offers no solution. People voted out of anger and frustration to Leave. It is part of the great dis-enfranchised getting revenge on the political elite.
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Post by tanksfull on Jun 26, 2016 10:30:27 GMT
"It is my belief that we have now gone passed the tipping point". So obviously my opinion and not fact. How do we solve the big problems of NHS/Schools/Housing Infrastracture? The EU offers no solution. The Government offers no solution. People voted out of anger and frustration to Leave. It is part of the great dis-enfranchised getting revenge on the political elite. If you are correct then they didn't really want to come out but merely give someone a "bloody nose". The problem you express is a government issue nothing to do with the EU. The dis-enfranchised received more from the EU in the form of investment and grants than any other sector. South Wales was one of the highest beneficiaries and they voted out. Turkeys voting for Christmas...
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2016 10:38:24 GMT
I can only speak for myself, if it economically worthwhile to have immigrants then great I'll be happy with that as for other people they have to speak for themselves that's the benefit of living in a democracy, and possible why some people leave where they live to come here. Perhaps people should try to spread the right to democracy and free speech in other countries. In honestly people haven't the balls to do that. County, not sure everyone on the Leave side completely accept your view. They just what immigration down whatever the state of our economy. Also I would argue most of the people that Farage wants to stop are from democracies. We could always stop Iraqis and Syrians. By the way I thought Merkel was a fool last summer accepting millions of syrians and god knows who else into Germany. ive not finished the whole thread yet so i may be jumping the gun youve touched on a subject there, immigration is good/neccessary , BUT lets not beat around the bush whole areas of Bristol have been given our to somalians/north africans , in what way can that be fair ?. the housing list has been leapfrogged in one go, my son has to pay 850 a month because he has no chance of accomadation. secondly and no-one has mentioned it. they bring their desire for sharia law or their way of life , like it or not that played a big part in this vote as for the last 10 years or so even talking about immigration brought the hounds out
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Post by tanksfull on Jun 26, 2016 10:48:48 GMT
County, not sure everyone on the Leave side completely accept your view. They just what immigration down whatever the state of our economy. Also I would argue most of the people that Farage wants to stop are from democracies. We could always stop Iraqis and Syrians. By the way I thought Merkel was a fool last summer accepting millions of syrians and god knows who else into Germany. ive not finished the whole thread yet so i may be jumping the gun youve touched on a subject there, immigration is good/neccessary , BUT lets not beat around the bush whole areas of Bristol have been given our to somalians/north africans , in what way can that be fair ?. the housing list has been leapfrogged in one go, my son has to pay 850 a month because he has no chance of accomadation. secondly and no-one has mentioned it. they bring their desire for sharia law or their way of life , like it or not that played a big part in this vote as for the last 10 years or so even talking about immigration brought the hounds out Now those arguments I have great sympathy with. However, how are Somalis and North Africans connected to the EU vote? They are here due to completely different reasons to EU immigration. That will not change as a result of voting to come out of the EU. We will still have 100% of refugees entering the country.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2016 10:56:11 GMT
I saw that yesterday and it's excellent news. When did the negotiations start? Let's look at the stats in one, two and three years time and see how investment develops. the negotiations will have began prior to the vote being made, but having seen the result they have still confirmed their intentions, obviously these contracts may have monetary clauses in them on a decision made one way or another, this may have had a bearing on the announcement who knows..... , the biggest threat to any other company coming here to operate, financially or manufacturing will be the "powers that be" within the EU, Junkers [it seems] is going to be so anti british, will put barriers in the way of free enterprise from companies operating in the EU wishing to migrate to the UK, this is one of the main problems the EU has generated, the financial obstructions put in the way of free trade of one country from outside of europe wishing to trade with a member country.. the 27 or 28? These barriers already exist. We British are very nice about these things and tend to play by the rules. Digby Jones, spills the beans on the real world of ''free trade'' within the EU. He's tried to open companies in other EU countries, been told ''no'', told the governments there that they have to allow him, they have replied that he can sue through the EU courts, knowing full well it will take years and swallow up decades of potential profit from the proposed company. This is the reality of the EU, it's a closed shop, they will welcome you into an embrace, but you have to promise to love them first and obey all of their rules, but they won't punish their friends who do break the rules. What kind of a basis is that for a relationship? What's needed is a clean broom through the chambers of Brussels, chuck the likes of Junker out on the streets, he should be out there, shouting his message of hate and selling pencils from a cup, then we could get competent governance and the EU could actually work!
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Post by laughinggas on Jun 26, 2016 11:09:15 GMT
ive not finished the whole thread yet so i may be jumping the gun youve touched on a subject there, immigration is good/neccessary , BUT lets not beat around the bush whole areas of Bristol have been given our to somalians/north africans , in what way can that be fair ?. the housing list has been leapfrogged in one go, my son has to pay 850 a month because he has no chance of accomadation. secondly and no-one has mentioned it. they bring their desire for sharia law or their way of life , like it or not that played a big part in this vote as for the last 10 years or so even talking about immigration brought the hounds out Now those arguments I have great sympathy with. However, how are Somalis and North Africans connected to the EU vote? They are here due to completely different reasons to EU immigration. That will not change as a result of voting to come out of the EU. We will still have 100% of refugees entering the country. And there's the issue many think all this talk off immigration and BREXIT are connected that all immigration will be controlled or cease by exit. Also the BREXIT campaigners have deliberately given mixed messages on this
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,064
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Post by basel on Jun 26, 2016 11:15:17 GMT
How very Nazi! Our Chairman is talking out of his ass if he thinks older people should be denied a vote. Ha ha. That wasn't a quote Basel, those were my words. Oh right.Oops.Apoligies alround and especially you Anne and our Chairman. Sorry,i was in a mad rush and had been reading many 'blame the old' posts on the internet. The Remain people who didn't vote need a good look in the mirror. I think the UK voted Leave because successive Goverments and the middle class are out of touch with how working class people feel. I think the political correcectness thing was once upon a good tool for helping intergration,but it became a big scarey Leftie monster.Britons for many years now have been too scared to express their opinion,in fear of being called a silly but damaging name.Talking was more or less banned,just like this forum did! Right now,the name calling continues and people who voted Leave are being made to feel bad. I voted Remain,but I think I get why Leave won the day. I think we now have to get on with it.It is a very interesting time. 10,000 questions yet to be answered.....
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2016 11:16:25 GMT
Can we still enter Eurovision?
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Post by tanksfull on Jun 26, 2016 11:19:28 GMT
Now those arguments I have great sympathy with. However, how are Somalis and North Africans connected to the EU vote? They are here due to completely different reasons to EU immigration. That will not change as a result of voting to come out of the EU. We will still have 100% of refugees entering the country. And there's the issue many think all this talk off immigration and BREXIT are connected that all immigration will be controlled or cease by exit. Also the BREXIT campaigners have deliberately given mixed messages on this We (and Ireland who we have our only land border with) are not part of the Schengen Agreement. Hence people still have to show a passport or identity at our Border Control. That is why there is a problem in Calais. We don't automatically let them in. Immigration is a complete and utter misnomer as far as the EU is concerned.
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Post by lostinspace on Jun 26, 2016 11:23:29 GMT
Can we still enter Eurovision? unfortunately yes... as the contest is contested with those countries who contribute to being members of the euorpean broadcasting union or summat like that.. how else did the Aussies get in!!!
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Post by tanksfull on Jun 26, 2016 11:24:20 GMT
Can we still enter Eurovision? I hope not but sadly as Australia and Israel are in I fear the worse...
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Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,287
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Post by Rex on Jun 26, 2016 11:29:49 GMT
Can we still enter Eurovision? If we vote to leave that, I'm leaving the country, it's the last bit of culture we have left
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2016 11:31:24 GMT
Possibly for you but not for me, for myself it was always about the economy & trading with those parts of the world that exactly exist outside the EU. But it would seem that you & Tanksful believe the EU will cut off it's own nose to spite it's face. But no-one in the Remain camp has explained why it would be a positive move by the EU to start a trade war, ultimately I don't think they will, but if they do it will just prove that the Leave camp were correct in pointing out that the EU is very insular & not really interested or focused on trade with countries outside the EU. As to the immigration point I'm quite happy with people coming here to work (& indeed most of then work exceedingly hard) but successive governments have used that immigration as cheap labour so that they don't have to deal with real issues like making the unemployed (what is the official rate now 1.6m?) here actually work & paying them to not work. If there are so many jobs being taken by immigrants why would any sane person pay people not to work? Then you get to the control issue, yes controlled by the government (are you aware of anywhere else in the world that supports uncontrolled immigration?), both in terms of the skills required by the economy (I mean was or economy & way of life in danger of collapsing because there were not enough car washers?) but also the quality of people unfortunately we breed enough murderers (as shown with the despicable murder of the MP) & rapists to not need to import them. But perhaps murderers & rapists is the collateral damage that people like yourself believe is a price worth paying for freedom of movement? Well, we've just cut off our nose to spite our face, so why not them? It would be less of an issue for them: the EU collectively is a much bigger market for us than the UK is for any individual EU state. As for them starting a trade war, if we're going to compete against rather than with them, who's doing that? It's odd to pick a fight and get indignant at the thought that others won't protect their interest at least to the point of neutralising the effect. Ultimately if we don't get equivalent access to the single market as we do now in Europe then that shortfall in trade, if there is one, will have to be made up elsewhere. As people are stating that will have to be with the Far East, China etc, Russia and all the States preciously defined as BRICS. Given the political situations in those countries, good luck with agreeing a legally enforceable legal framework with them. But back to controlled immigration. Brexiteers have promised to reduce the overall level of immigration. Lets say, for the sake of argument net immigration target is set at 100,000, and visas will only be issued to that number.. What happens if there is a labour shortfall because the labour market demanded 200,000? ??
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Post by tanksfull on Jun 26, 2016 11:32:03 GMT
Can we still enter Eurovision? If we vote to leave that, I'm leaving the country, it's the last bit of culture we have left Whose culture though?
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Post by tanksfull on Jun 26, 2016 11:36:25 GMT
Well, we've just cut off our nose to spite our face, so why not them? It would be less of an issue for them: the EU collectively is a much bigger market for us than the UK is for any individual EU state. As for them starting a trade war, if we're going to compete against rather than with them, who's doing that? It's odd to pick a fight and get indignant at the thought that others won't protect their interest at least to the point of neutralising the effect. Ultimately if we don't get equivalent access to the single market as we do now in Europe then that shortfall in trade, if there is one, will have to be made up elsewhere. As people are stating that will have to be with the Far East, China etc, Russia and all the States preciously defined as BRICS. Given the political situations in those countries, good luck with agreeing a legally enforceable legal framework with them. But back to controlled immigration. Brexiteers have promised to reduce the overall level of immigration. Lets say, for the sake of argument net immigration target is set at 100,000, and visas will only be issued to that number.. What happens if there is a labour shortfall because the labour market demanded 200,000? ?? We allow more refugees in as you need a residence card as a refugee?
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Post by tanksfull on Jun 26, 2016 11:41:08 GMT
Ultimately if we don't get equivalent access to the single market as we do now in Europe then that shortfall in trade, if there is one, will have to be made up elsewhere. As people are stating that will have to be with the Far East, China etc, Russia and all the States preciously defined as BRICS. Given the political situations in those countries, good luck with agreeing a legally enforceable legal framework with them. But back to controlled immigration. Brexiteers have promised to reduce the overall level of immigration. Lets say, for the sake of argument net immigration target is set at 100,000, and visas will only be issued to that number.. What happens if there is a labour shortfall because the labour market demanded 200,000? ?? We allow more refugees in as you need a residence card as a refugee? Boris has more children?
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Angas
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,067
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Post by Angas on Jun 26, 2016 11:45:56 GMT
Ha ha. That wasn't a quote Basel, those were my words. Oh right.Oops.Apoligies alround and especially you Anne and our Chairman. Sorry,i was in a mad rush and had been reading many 'blame the old' posts on the internet. The Remain people who didn't vote need a good look in the mirror. I think the UK voted Leave because successive Goverments and the middle class are out of touch with how working class people feel. I think the political correcectness thing was once upon a good tool for helping intergration,but it became a big scarey Leftie monster.Britons for many years now have been too scared to express their opinion,in fear of being called a silly but damaging name.Talking was more or less banned,just like this forum did! Right now,the name calling continues and people who voted Leave are being made to feel bad. I voted Remain,but I think I get why Leave won the day. I think we now have to get on with it.It is a very interesting time. 10,000 questions yet to be answered..... Ha ha, probably my fault for not making it clear I wasn't quoting our chairman. Can't argue with anything you say. What's done is done, we'll see what happens.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2016 11:55:00 GMT
We allow more refugees in as you need a residence card as a refugee? Boris has more children? Ha ha. Cant wait for the answer though.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2016 12:05:01 GMT
Well, we've just cut off our nose to spite our face, so why not them? It would be less of an issue for them: the EU collectively is a much bigger market for us than the UK is for any individual EU state. As for them starting a trade war, if we're going to compete against rather than with them, who's doing that? It's odd to pick a fight and get indignant at the thought that others won't protect their interest at least to the point of neutralising the effect. Ultimately if we don't get equivalent access to the single market as we do now in Europe then that shortfall in trade, if there is one, will have to be made up elsewhere. As people are stating that will have to be with the Far East, China etc, Russia and all the States preciously defined as BRICS. Given the political situations in those countries, good luck with agreeing a legally enforceable legal framework with them. But back to controlled immigration. Brexiteers have promised to reduce the overall level of immigration. Lets say, for the sake of argument net immigration target is set at 100,000, and visas will only be issued to that number.. What happens if there is a labour shortfall because the labour market demanded 200,000? ?? You know as well as everybody else does that setting a figure to migration in that way was just soundbite politics. I don't think that anybody, apart from a small number of right wing crackpots, care how many Poles, Romanians, Africans, Americans, or even Faroe Islanders come here, as long as it's in line with demand and growth in the economy, their skills are market appropriate and the infrastructure is in place to meet the needs of the entire population.
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