kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,263
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Post by kingswood Polak on Jan 27, 2016 16:21:41 GMT
Thanks for posting, all sounds very promising, but alas I won't get my hopes up until I have a season ticked at the UWE! UTG I guess you didn't go to Whaddon road then lol. A season ticket would not be enough for me. I will only believe it once it has been built. There are many instances of pre orders being put in for things that don't transpire. I guess I and many others just have had the one too many false dawns and so it then heightens the cynicism in me but, I really and truly hope we do win and I would be delighted if that were the case. Does anyone really think we could now build the UWE, on the original points ? Being debt free etc ? I don't see it personally and it would be interesting to see how the build costs have changed. I am not thinking of the raw materials but labour rates have gone up by a big amount. If we did win then woukd we be able to get compensated for the losses incurred during this horrible process ?
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brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
No Buy . . . No Sell!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,293
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Post by brizzle on Jan 27, 2016 16:25:36 GMT
Sorry, clicked on the wrong post! But, PP, why are you so annoyed/wound up at this moment? I can understand you being annoyed/wound up long term, and being so if the appeal is lost, but why so many repetitively negative posts whilst the court case is proceeding? Personally, I am hopeful (but not very!) of a favourable outcome, and interested in following what is happening. Of course, if we lose I shall be annoyed/wound up with the best of 'em. sorry to add to it again only so many negatives as just responding to the responses to me.
The whole episode has wound me up to be honest and anything I see seems to set me off. Overall I just dread losing this. Not only for what the future would hold, but no doubt it will just continue the blame cultural that has existed for so long
I very much hope we win and I can't reiterate that enough.
I shall calm down now and chill
And try to remember that it's only business, not personal . . . like it was in The Godfather.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 16:40:00 GMT
Rather than quote the whole report that PP has provided, we seem to be saying:
Sainsbury's wanted out, and that was their state of mind when they activated a contractual basis to get out. Their state of mind in finding a get out in the contract is irrelevant. Either it's in the contract or it isn't. We don't seem to be arguing that it isn't, just shaking a fist at Sainsbury's and having a(nother)whinge.
Their appeal on delivery times was inadequate. That's prevented by the contract in that it requires that we had to approve what they did. We did: we agreed at the time it was adequate.
Meanwhile, have they yet made a case how Mrs Proudman got her legal interpretation 'obviously' wrong, or just gone over the same arguments she rejected?
I'd like us to have a case (although I don't think that would fund UWE) and, more importantly, to be shown that we had a constructive way forward rather than just having spent another 9 months and million quid urinating into the wind and playing the victim. So far, so disappointing.
I'll go and sit this out with PP and wait in hope to be proved wrong.
Edit to add, a little way into letting it go: it could be that what I'm actually shaking my head about is just a hugely inadequate report by the Evening Post. Maybe the crux of the matter sits with the devil in the detail, and that all went way over the head of their reporter who just padded out a report by rehashing old stuff and relaying big picture contextual stuff given in court as a run-up to the legal intricacies. Fingers crossed.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,181
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Post by eppinggas on Jan 27, 2016 16:51:04 GMT
I was at the Court of Appeal this morning. 2 1/2 hours of debate in total. The 3 Judges ages must add up to 200 years+, so there is a huge amount of experience there. The Courts are a lot more impressive than where the original hearing was at Fetter Lane. This Appeal would not have been cheap. Nick and Tony looked apprehensive. A lot of what their QC (Woolacot) brought up didn't seem to add anything new to the proceedings. He's polished but came across as a slimeball. The Judges were asking a lot of questions. The contract is horribly drawn up and convoluted (as Justice Proudman said at the original hearing). I still think this could go in our favour as this is a sainsbury's 'standard' contract - and they know how to cynically exploit the loop-holes to walk away. I don't think the Judges looked particularly swayed by the Woolacot arguments. They pretty much admitted they showed bad faith "after that period where they thought they had the right to withdraw from the contract". One of the key issues is WHEN exactly that point in time was. I only heard our QC Mathias for about 30-40 minutes. He's a little less polished - but definitely more passionate fighting our side of the debate. I liked the point where he raised his voice "sainsbury's desperately trying to extricate themselves from the contract". I won't add anything else about my take on the ins and outs of the legal debate as I'm sure the above copy&paste by PP covers all the arguments far better than I could. At the start of the day I thought we had very little chance of success in this Appeal. Admittedly I only heard half a days worth of the 3 days that have been allotted, but I'm a little more convinced this isn't a totally lost cause. UTG.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,263
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Post by kingswood Polak on Jan 27, 2016 16:52:55 GMT
So our people spotted the error straight away but the judge who spent weeks deliberating didnt see her error when coming to her conclusion It is possible. It does seem that she had said how difficult the case was and, from what I have read and heard. It does seem that she did give some encouragement to appeal it. I was very shocked that the original judge didn't allow the internal emails to be used as evidence of Sainsburys attempts to actively scupper the deal and there was the one very damning correspondence that takes of the silver bullet with which to shoot down the project. I know that I should know better but I am feeling a bit more hopeful that we could see a turnaround here. I now await the submissions from their people
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Post by bs20gas on Jan 27, 2016 17:22:57 GMT
After reading all of whats happened in court so far i am even less confident of any success than i was before as it Sounds like were just hoping that the judge feels sorry for us and gives us out of sympathy some or all of the money and that legally we do not have anything new to add to our case or any new evidence.I hope i am proved wrong but so far it looks like we have gone there out of desperation and do not actually have much chance of getting anything at all. PANTS.
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Post by creationblue on Jan 27, 2016 17:26:25 GMT
Thanks for posting, all sounds very promising, but alas I won't get my hopes up until I have a season ticked at the UWE! UTG I guess you didn't go to Whaddon road then lol. A season ticket would not be enough for me. I will only believe it once it has been built. There are many instances of pre orders being put in for things that don't transpire. I guess I and many others just have had the one too many false dawns and so it then heightens the cynicism in me but, I really and truly hope we do win and I would be delighted if that were the case. Does anyone really think we could now build the UWE, on the original points ? Being debt free etc ? I don't see it personally and it would be interesting to see how the build costs have changed. I am not thinking of the raw materials but labour rates have gone up by a big amount. If we did win then woukd we be able to get compensated for the losses incurred during this horrible process ? My point being that until it's build and I'm sat in my allocated seat then I won't believe ;-)
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Post by severnbeachline on Jan 27, 2016 17:34:44 GMT
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Peter Parker
Global Moderator
Richard Walker
You have been sentenced to DELETION!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,920
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Post by Peter Parker on Jan 27, 2016 17:37:54 GMT
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,181
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Post by eppinggas on Jan 27, 2016 17:49:14 GMT
Well only 2 days as opposed to the scheduled 3... seems to imply that we will get the final decision sooner rather than later.
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Post by severnbeachline on Jan 27, 2016 17:50:13 GMT
Well only 2 days as opposed to the scheduled 3... seems to imply that we will get the final decision sooner rather than later. March 29th rather than March 30th.
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Post by otleygas on Jan 27, 2016 17:51:07 GMT
Sorry if already covered. Did we get to know if additional evidence we asked to be taken into account was permitted or not?
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Post by severnbeachline on Jan 27, 2016 17:52:32 GMT
Sorry if already covered. Did we get to know if additional evidence we asked to be taken into account was permitted or not? Nope.
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brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
No Buy . . . No Sell!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,293
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Post by brizzle on Jan 27, 2016 17:57:13 GMT
As the hearing only lasted two of the three allocated days, does that mean that our anticipated expenditure on the case will be cut by 33%?
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dogbert
Joined: August 2014
Posts: 12
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Post by dogbert on Jan 27, 2016 17:57:30 GMT
I'm guessing that means Sainsburys didn't spend very long putting their side of the case forward - which to me kind of suggests there were no new arguments made by Rovers and they are effectively just looking for a second opinion.
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Post by Cosmic Pasty on Jan 27, 2016 17:58:21 GMT
Well only 2 days as opposed to the scheduled 3... seems to imply that we will get the final decision sooner rather than later. Is it possible that a line was drawn under the proceedings because the opposing parties indicated that they were willing to come to an agreement between themselves instead? I know very little about this kind of thing, and as a result of the latest chapter in the saga am now defining 'an appeal' as 'a brief summary of old evidence presented to new judges'.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,263
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Post by kingswood Polak on Jan 27, 2016 17:59:31 GMT
I guess you didn't go to Whaddon road then lol. A season ticket would not be enough for me. I will only believe it once it has been built. There are many instances of pre orders being put in for things that don't transpire. I guess I and many others just have had the one too many false dawns and so it then heightens the cynicism in me but, I really and truly hope we do win and I would be delighted if that were the case. Does anyone really think we could now build the UWE, on the original points ? Being debt free etc ? I don't see it personally and it would be interesting to see how the build costs have changed. I am not thinking of the raw materials but labour rates have gone up by a big amount. If we did win then woukd we be able to get compensated for the losses incurred during this horrible process ? My point being that until it's build and I'm sat in my allocated seat then I won't believe ;-) That's how I took it really but just added my own thoughts. We really have been through the plethora of emotions in being Rovers supporters eh mate. The thing that still bugs me is that I believed that because Nick Higgs had a background in building, this meant to we, at last, had the experience and nous within the club and that contracts would be the least of our troubles. How wrong could I have been ?
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Post by christianandersen on Jan 27, 2016 17:59:37 GMT
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Post by badbloodash on Jan 27, 2016 18:02:04 GMT
Well nothing new seems to have been submitted so my money on sainsburys hope we know the result before the clocks go forward but for us older boys another false dawn and 12 months wasted don't think I'll ever see us play in a decent stadium but at least when go to bed tonight I sleep well knowing that tomorrow I'll wake up still 100% gas and not a six fingered sister shagging sh##head
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brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
No Buy . . . No Sell!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,293
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Post by brizzle on Jan 27, 2016 18:47:32 GMT
Well only 2 days as opposed to the scheduled 3... seems to imply that we will get the final decision sooner rather than later. Is it possible that a line was drawn under the proceedings because the opposing parties indicated that they were willing to come to an agreement between themselves instead?I know very little about this kind of thing, and as a result of the latest chapter in the saga am now defining 'an appeal' as 'a brief summary of old evidence presented to new judges'. That's a very interesting thought that is. In fact the more that I think about it . . .
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