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Post by Feeling The Blues on Jul 13, 2015 20:30:17 GMT
From GD's Twitter feed: Geoff Dunford @geoffdunford 4h4 hours ago @douggas The club will survive Doug. Too many good supporters. However where is the money coming from? This decision was not even close! Geoff Dunford @geoffdunford 5h5 hours ago I am totally shocked at the judgment today. What is plan B ? Where does the club go from here? #UTG Forming a Supporters Trust. Plan B? How about working out what price Sainsburys would pay for the ground to make their yields work . Is there a deal to be done that would still work for us on that basis albeit that increased outside capital would be needed. We are never going to get anywhere fif we are relying on building a state of the art stadium for nothing as we were trying to do here. How many clubs have managed to do that?
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alwaysgas
Harry Bamford
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 153
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Post by alwaysgas on Jul 13, 2015 20:34:44 GMT
This reaction shows that some people will stand up for failure whatever happens. Multiple relegations, lies about stadium moves, failed stadium moves, record debts and crushing of any attempts at fan involvement aren't enough. I love the old "if you don't like them buy the club" s***e. I hope you've never disagreed with the Government then, otherwise you'd better run for Prime Minister. Most people, given the pure luck that Higgs had with the Cowlin buyout, know that they can't run a football club well and wouldn't invest. Unlike someone. Your inability to understand English perhaps shows why you and a few others haven't made enough money from your employment to make a major investment in the club. (happy to learn that you will be doing so)
I will make my mind up about what has happened after we have heard all the facts and the board have announced what they intend to do.
I, however, have always found in business that the time to make decisions is when you have weighed up all the facts and have thought through the next steps.
As for the garbage about standing up for failure because you don't immediately join the out brigade that is as risible as saying that anyone criticising the club is a fan of the dark side.
Also opinions change as most on here were very unpleasant to DC last year but now he is a hero. Anyone with a modicum of football nous would have seen DC ability from the very start.
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crater
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,444
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Post by crater on Jul 13, 2015 20:57:42 GMT
Think I preferred it when we were still waiting for Judgey to make her mind up
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Angas
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,068
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Post by Angas on Jul 13, 2015 21:02:12 GMT
But will all the facts ever be made available to us? NH talked today about inconsistencies, but no-one seems to have a clue what those were. If it's going to an appeal there'll be no explanation of that point beforehand - though perhaps it will become clear in the subsequent decision document. That's going to be some way off though. If it doesn't go to appeal I doubt we'll ever learn any more detail.
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Post by gasheadnaboo on Jul 13, 2015 21:28:58 GMT
This reaction shows that some people will stand up for failure whatever happens. Multiple relegations, lies about stadium moves, failed stadium moves, record debts and crushing of any attempts at fan involvement aren't enough.I love the old "if you don't like them buy the club" s***e. I hope you've never disagreed with the Government then, otherwise you'd better run for Prime Minister. Most people, given the pure luck that Higgs had with the Cowlin buyout, know that they can't run a football club well and wouldn't invest. Unlike someone. Sounds like most clubs in the lower leagues to me I Wonder if they have a HA Club as well Are you able to name a few of them please? I had Plymouth and Portsmouth but they're both now in the hands of new owners...
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Post by onedaytheuwe on Jul 13, 2015 21:37:39 GMT
This reaction shows that some people will stand up for failure whatever happens. Multiple relegations, lies about stadium moves, failed stadium moves, record debts and crushing of any attempts at fan involvement aren't enough. I love the old "if you don't like them buy the club" s***e. I hope you've never disagreed with the Government then, otherwise you'd better run for Prime Minister. Most people, given the pure luck that Higgs had with the Cowlin buyout, know that they can't run a football club well and wouldn't invest. Unlike someone. Your inability to understand English perhaps shows why you and a few others haven't made enough money from your employment to make a major investment in the club. (happy to learn that you will be doing so)
I will make my mind up about what has happened after we have heard all the facts and the board have announced what they intend to do.
I, however, have always found in business that the time to make decisions is when you have weighed up all the facts and have thought through the next steps.
As for the garbage about standing up for failure because you don't immediately join the out brigade that is as risible as saying that anyone criticising the club is a fan of the dark side.
Also opinions change as most on here were very unpleasant to DC last year but now he is a hero. Anyone with a modicum of football nous would have seen DC ability from the very start.
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Post by onedaytheuwe on Jul 13, 2015 21:51:26 GMT
So if good business and making money is the key to success. And we need to reflect before making snapshot judgments. How come's we have spent millions on failed projects and there isn't one brand new seating area for families or kids to sit in ?. And still we might spend wasted monies on appeals about appeals.
If this was a public sector or left wing organisation . It would of been shut down years ago with a note ' ineffective and not cost effective'.
There is too much justification for failed projects by so called wealthy businessmen. We have failed on numerous projects and still we aint built a stand since 1949. This isn't a new one...
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 22:03:41 GMT
How does he know. I am actually a multi billionaire presently living in Monoaco in my villa looking out across the Med with three super models downstairs (one blonde, brunette and red head) we are about to get on my yacht. I just don't fancy investing in Rovers I much prefer to wallow in the failure of the club and criticise on an online forum and spend my money on fast cars, fast women and Columbian marching powder. Dear Mr Higgs I am an internet warrior. I only come out when the Board have messed things up to such a degree that I feel duty bound to comment. Apparently me and others who think your performance has been an abject disaster, wanted the team to be relegated from the Football League, were delighted that there was a disastrous start to the 14/15 season and slightly annoyed that victory was secured at Wembley to get us back to the dizzy heights of League 2 only come out to crow when you've royally screwed up again. I note that today there has been a further hiccup in the stadium project. Apparently those scoundrels at Sainsburys agreed to sign a contract that you believed to be watertight, but it turns out that wasn't quite the case. Now I don't wish to be unpleasant, but really since you took control of the club it has been a grand cock-up hasn't it? You may wish to blame others and a dash of bad luck on relegation (wasn't it the fault of Mr Lawrence)? I'm sure you'll consider that lovely chap Mr Watola is in no way responsible for today's news. Remember the shock with which he greeted relegation? "We were only in the bottom two for 70 minutes". Today's judgement is littered with references to Mr Watola and of course you've been working very closely with him on the stadium project although I was a little shocked to hear you talking to Mr Twentypence on the BEEB today and suggest that only the Director of Finance would know what you'd spent on legal costs. Anyway it's all rather awful, but it really is time for heads to roll is it not? Perhaps you and Mr W really ought to step aside. You can still be the big cheese in the shareholding stakes, but really you need to get someone in who can run a football club? I think you've been on the Board for 9 years now and at the point you took the chair, Bristol Rovers were in League 1 and didn't have quite the level of debt it has now. Were it not for young Mr Clarke digging you out of last season's little hole all the arrows would be pointing downwards. Please don't listen to any more lawyers, it really is the road to no-where, "watertight contract" anyone? Don't fall for the fluttering eyelashes of Ms Leslie any more, although it was nice of her to turn up at the Mem during the election campaign to promote a charity I thought it a remarkable co-incidence that she was there in front of over 8,000 people with the Mayor who wore blue trousers that day. Clearly you worked hard on cultivating those relationships but perhaps the time would have been better spent talking to Sainsbury's executives? Wasn't it just awful to get to a stage where litigation became necessary? No doubt Mr W was in daily contact with his opposite numbers at Sainsbury's, so it must have been all the more shocking for you that it has come to this. Yours sincerely The Cyclist How beastly. You do know that Higgs' children read this forum, don't you?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 22:07:34 GMT
How does he know. I am actually a multi billionaire presently living in Monoaco in my villa looking out across the Med with three super models downstairs (one blonde, brunette and red head) we are about to get on my yacht. I just don't fancy investing in Rovers I much prefer to wallow in the failure of the club and criticise on an online forum and spend my money on fast cars, fast women and Columbian marching powder. Dear Mr Higgs I am an internet warrior. I only come out when the Board have messed things up to such a degree that I feel duty bound to comment. Apparently me and others who think your performance has been an abject disaster, wanted the team to be relegated from the Football League, were delighted that there was a disastrous start to the 14/15 season and slightly annoyed that victory was secured at Wembley to get us back to the dizzy heights of League 2 only come out to crow when you've royally screwed up again. I note that today there has been a further hiccup in the stadium project. Apparently those scoundrels at Sainsburys agreed to sign a contract that you believed to be watertight, but it turns out that wasn't quite the case. Now I don't wish to be unpleasant, but really since you took control of the club it has been a grand cock-up hasn't it? You may wish to blame others and a dash of bad luck on relegation (wasn't it the fault of Mr Lawrence)? I'm sure you'll consider that lovely chap Mr Watola is in no way responsible for today's news. Remember the shock with which he greeted relegation? "We were only in the bottom two for 70 minutes". Today's judgement is littered with references to Mr Watola and of course you've been working very closely with him on the stadium project although I was a little shocked to hear you talking to Mr Twentypence on the BEEB today and suggest that only the Director of Finance would know what you'd spent on legal costs. Anyway it's all rather awful, but it really is time for heads to roll is it not? Perhaps you and Mr W really ought to step aside. You can still be the big cheese in the shareholding stakes, but really you need to get someone in who can run a football club? I think you've been on the Board for 9 years now and at the point you took the chair, Bristol Rovers were in League 1 and didn't have quite the level of debt it has now. Were it not for young Mr Clarke digging you out of last season's little hole all the arrows would be pointing downwards. Please don't listen to any more lawyers, it really is the road to no-where, "watertight contract" anyone? Don't fall for the fluttering eyelashes of Ms Leslie any more, although it was nice of her to turn up at the Mem during the election campaign to promote a charity I thought it a remarkable co-incidence that she was there in front of over 8,000 people with the Mayor who wore blue trousers that day. Clearly you worked hard on cultivating those relationships but perhaps the time would have been better spent talking to Sainsbury's executives? Wasn't it just awful to get to a stage where litigation became necessary? No doubt Mr W was in daily contact with his opposite numbers at Sainsbury's, so it must have been all the more shocking for you that it has come to this. Yours sincerely The Cyclist On yer bike, bloody trouble maker.
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dagnogo
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 872
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Post by dagnogo on Jul 13, 2015 22:12:16 GMT
This reaction shows that some people will stand up for failure whatever happens. Multiple relegations, lies about stadium moves, failed stadium moves, record debts and crushing of any attempts at fan involvement aren't enough. I love the old "if you don't like them buy the club" s***e. I hope you've never disagreed with the Government then, otherwise you'd better run for Prime Minister. Most people, given the pure luck that Higgs had with the Cowlin buyout, know that they can't run a football club well and wouldn't invest. Unlike someone. Your inability to understand English perhaps shows why you and a few others haven't made enough money from your employment to make a major investment in the club. (happy to learn that you will be doing so)
I will make my mind up about what has happened after we have heard all the facts and the board have announced what they intend to do.
I, however, have always found in business that the time to make decisions is when you have weighed up all the facts and have thought through the next steps.
As for the garbage about standing up for failure because you don't immediately join the out brigade that is as risible as saying that anyone criticising the club is a fan of the dark side.
Also opinions change as most on here were very unpleasant to DC last year but now he is a hero. Anyone with a modicum of football nous would have seen DC ability from the very start.
I can understand English perfectly well cheers - for instance, the term "knee-jerk" refers to someone making a decision in the heat of the moment, as soon as something's happened - as opposed to after 6 years of almost unmitigated failure, rising debts and lies about top-down reviews and trips to Cheltenham to pick out seats. Your line about "immediately joining the out brigade" made me laugh - as if this isn't now the 2nd stadium project that has died on his watch, which goes neatly with his 2 relegations. I've been in the Higgs out brigade since Penney was hired and fired, and have had a healthy disdain for the rest since Kev Spencer and Mike Turl were ousted for daring to run the club like a business. So how come you've not invested if you're so wealthy and clever? As for DC - I backed him from the start. Thing is, football managers can have good periods and bad periods, but none of them get to fail for 5 years straight like Higgsy does because they get sacked. Even before today, his reign stank of failure - 2 relegations and the Mem redevelopment hitting the skids. Only the UWE could have saved his reputation and that's gone the same way.
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Post by chippenhamgas on Jul 13, 2015 22:28:01 GMT
Your inability to understand English perhaps shows why you and a few others haven't made enough money from your employment to make a major investment in the club. (happy to learn that you will be doing so)
I will make my mind up about what has happened after we have heard all the facts and the board have announced what they intend to do.
I, however, have always found in business that the time to make decisions is when you have weighed up all the facts and have thought through the next steps.
As for the garbage about standing up for failure because you don't immediately join the out brigade that is as risible as saying that anyone criticising the club is a fan of the dark side.
Also opinions change as most on here were very unpleasant to DC last year but now he is a hero. Anyone with a modicum of football nous would have seen DC ability from the very start.
I can understand English perfectly well cheers - for instance, the term "knee-jerk" refers to someone making a decision in the heat of the moment, as soon as something's happened - as opposed to after 6 years of almost unmitigated failure, rising debts and lies about top-down reviews and trips to Cheltenham to pick out seats. Your line about "immediately joining the out brigade" made me laugh - as if this isn't now the 2nd stadium project that has died on his watch, which goes neatly with his 2 relegations. I've been in the Higgs out brigade since Penney was hired and fired, and have had a healthy disdain for the rest since Kev Spencer and Mike Turl were ousted for daring to run the club like a business. So how come you've not invested if you're so wealthy and clever? As for DC - I backed him from the start. Thing is, football managers can have good periods and bad periods, but none of them get to fail for 5 years straight like Higgsy does because they get sacked. Even before today, his reign stank of failure - 2 relegations and the Mem redevelopment hitting the skids. Only the UWE could have saved his reputation and that's gone the same way. Unfortunately though there are enough deluded people who will back him, he is now pressing ahead with a wild goose chase of an appeal not because he believes uwe is achievable but because he wants to gamble with more of the club's money to try and recoup his losses. It was clear two years ago that sains wanted out but instead of trying to negotiate a settlement that may have then been achievable he ploughed on with head buried firmly in the sand, wasting two years that could have been spent formulating plan b and wasting shedloads of the club's cash at the same time. An honourable man would now agree to write off the money he has 'invested' in the club, which was only necessary because of his own endless catalogue of mistakes both in management appointments and failed stadium projects and let someone else come forward with a clean slate.
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alwaysgas
Harry Bamford
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 153
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Post by alwaysgas on Jul 13, 2015 23:33:53 GMT
But will all the facts ever be made available to us? NH talked today about inconsistencies, but no-one seems to have a clue what those were. If it's going to an appeal there'll be no explanation of that point beforehand - though perhaps it will become clear in the subsequent decision document. That's going to be some way off though. If it doesn't go to appeal I doubt we'll ever learn any more detail. Ann, if we appeal it will be in the appeal papers but that is probably a week away before they decide.
The only businesses that decide in a panic are poor ones but here we have posters, that have almost certainly never run a business, urging our board to do exactly that.
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alwaysgas
Harry Bamford
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 153
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Post by alwaysgas on Jul 13, 2015 23:42:10 GMT
Your inability to understand English perhaps shows why you and a few others haven't made enough money from your employment to make a major investment in the club. (happy to learn that you will be doing so)
I will make my mind up about what has happened after we have heard all the facts and the board have announced what they intend to do.
I, however, have always found in business that the time to make decisions is when you have weighed up all the facts and have thought through the next steps.
As for the garbage about standing up for failure because you don't immediately join the out brigade that is as risible as saying that anyone criticising the club is a fan of the dark side.
Also opinions change as most on here were very unpleasant to DC last year but now he is a hero. Anyone with a modicum of football nous would have seen DC ability from the very start.
I can understand English perfectly well cheers - for instance, the term "knee-jerk" refers to someone making a decision in the heat of the moment, as soon as something's happened - as opposed to after 6 years of almost unmitigated failure, rising debts and lies about top-down reviews and trips to Cheltenham to pick out seats. Your line about "immediately joining the out brigade" made me laugh - as if this isn't now the 2nd stadium project that has died on his watch, which goes neatly with his 2 relegations. I've been in the Higgs out brigade since Penney was hired and fired, and have had a healthy disdain for the rest since Kev Spencer and Mike Turl were ousted for daring to run the club like a business. So how come you've not invested if you're so wealthy and clever? As for DC - I backed him from the start. Thing is, football managers can have good periods and bad periods, but none of them get to fail for 5 years straight like Higgsy does because they get sacked. Even before today, his reign stank of failure - 2 relegations and the Mem redevelopment hitting the skids. Only the UWE could have saved his reputation and that's gone the same way. Then read carefully, knee jerk refers to asking NH to make an immediate decision based on todays judgement and engaging one's brain before posting has nothing to do with being wealthy or clever.
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Post by bluebeard on Jul 14, 2015 0:42:46 GMT
I can understand English perfectly well cheers - for instance, the term "knee-jerk" refers to someone making a decision in the heat of the moment, as soon as something's happened - as opposed to after 6 years of almost unmitigated failure, rising debts and lies about top-down reviews and trips to Cheltenham to pick out seats. Your line about "immediately joining the out brigade" made me laugh - as if this isn't now the 2nd stadium project that has died on his watch, which goes neatly with his 2 relegations. I've been in the Higgs out brigade since Penney was hired and fired, and have had a healthy disdain for the rest since Kev Spencer and Mike Turl were ousted for daring to run the club like a business. So how come you've not invested if you're so wealthy and clever? As for DC - I backed him from the start. Thing is, football managers can have good periods and bad periods, but none of them get to fail for 5 years straight like Higgsy does because they get sacked. Even before today, his reign stank of failure - 2 relegations and the Mem redevelopment hitting the skids. Only the UWE could have saved his reputation and that's gone the same way. Unfortunately though there are enough deluded people who will back him, he is now pressing ahead with a wild goose chase of an appeal not because he believes uwe is achievable but because he wants to gamble with more of the club's money to try and recoup his losses. It was clear two years ago that sains wanted out but instead of trying to negotiate a settlement that may have then been achievable he ploughed on with head buried firmly in the sand, wasting two years that could have been spent formulating plan b and wasting shedloads of the club's cash at the same time. An honourable man would now agree to write off the money he has 'invested' in the club, which was only necessary because of his own endless catalogue of mistakes both in management appointments and failed stadium projects and let someone else come forward with a clean slate. I agree he should go and I really don't want to see us go through an appeal. But don't label people who remain optimistic or direct their bitterness elsewhere as deluded. We signed the contract in good faith and Sainsburys wriggled out of it in bad faith. Had the successful appeal been lodged 20 days sooner the contract would probably have been binding. We are a tin pot lower league football club with limited resources. Why would there be a Plan B? Hindsight is a wonderful thing but the doubters always seem to have it in abundance.
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TaiwanGas
Paul Bannon
Tom Ramasuts Left Foot.
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,353
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Post by TaiwanGas on Jul 14, 2015 3:55:51 GMT
Clearly, Nick Higgs is a man who takes things real personal, like a terrier that just wont let go, if he plans an appeal, I hope he uses his own personal cash and does not take out loans against the club to fund it!...
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Post by Feeling The Blues on Jul 14, 2015 6:26:29 GMT
Clearly, Nick Higgs is a man who takes things real personal, like a terrier that just wont let go, if he plans an appeal, I hope he uses his own personal cash and does not take out loans against the club to fund it!... Meanwhile the clock ticks on, the uncertainty of where we stand remains, outside investors won't be able to agree a price to buy in because of that uncertainty and UWE could well lose interest anyway. It's time for plan B NOW!
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Angas
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,068
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Post by Angas on Jul 14, 2015 7:45:12 GMT
But will all the facts ever be made available to us? NH talked today about inconsistencies, but no-one seems to have a clue what those were. If it's going to an appeal there'll be no explanation of that point beforehand - though perhaps it will become clear in the subsequent decision document. That's going to be some way off though. If it doesn't go to appeal I doubt we'll ever learn any more detail. Ann, if we appeal it will be in the appeal papers but that is probably a week away before they decide.
The only businesses that decide in a panic are poor ones but here we have posters, that have almost certainly never run a business, urging our board to do exactly that.
Oh right. Well it will be interesting to see what the inconsistencies are. I ploughed through the judgment, but I haven't been sharp enough to work out what the issue is. NH's reply to G20man, where he said "We have to" appeal concerns me. That answer doesn't fill me with confidence that the decision is founded on solid conviction that the judge is wrong. It sounded more like desperation. But we shall see. He's in charge, we can only sit and watch.
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dagnogo
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 872
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Post by dagnogo on Jul 14, 2015 8:17:33 GMT
According to Geoffrey, a man who was wealthy and clever enough to invest, and cleverer still to get out when he did, the decision "wasn't even close".
The Judge has stated that the contract is poorly drafted.
Sometimes a quick decision isn't a knee jerk one, it's just an obvious one. Remember it's the future of the club he's gambling with.
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sharky
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 2
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Post by sharky on Jul 14, 2015 8:17:54 GMT
I can understand English perfectly well cheers - for instance, the term "knee-jerk" refers to someone making a decision in the heat of the moment, as soon as something's happened - as opposed to after 6 years of almost unmitigated failure, rising debts and lies about top-down reviews and trips to Cheltenham to pick out seats. Your line about "immediately joining the out brigade" made me laugh - as if this isn't now the 2nd stadium project that has died on his watch, which goes neatly with his 2 relegations. I've been in the Higgs out brigade since Penney was hired and fired, and have had a healthy disdain for the rest since Kev Spencer and Mike Turl were ousted for daring to run the club like a business. So how come you've not invested if you're so wealthy and clever? As for DC - I backed him from the start. Thing is, football managers can have good periods and bad periods, but none of them get to fail for 5 years straight like Higgsy does because they get sacked. Even before today, his reign stank of failure - 2 relegations and the Mem redevelopment hitting the skids. Only the UWE could have saved his reputation and that's gone the same way. Unfortunately though there are enough deluded people who will back him, he is now pressing ahead with a wild goose chase of an appeal not because he believes uwe is achievable but because he wants to gamble with more of the club's money to try and recoup his losses. It was clear two years ago that sains wanted out but instead of trying to negotiate a settlement that may have then been achievable he ploughed on with head buried firmly in the sand, wasting two years that could have been spent formulating plan b and wasting shedloads of the club's cash at the same time. An honourable man would now agree to write off the money he has 'invested' in the club, which was only necessary because of his own endless catalogue of mistakes both in management appointments and failed stadium projects and let someone else come forward with a clean slate. How do you know that we did not try to sort out a deal with Sainsburys before litigation? Ever tried to shift the mind of a soulless, faceless PLC who the judge herself has highlighted made no attempt to contact all parties involved of their decision to pull out of the contract? Remember who instigated litigation - it was not Rovers. I would love to know what the appointed Rovers' Solicitor who poured over the contract at the beginning said about it - what was the advice? If it was "all in order", then I would be thinking about employing a new lawyer to consider a clam for professional indemnity against the original firm for failing to spot an automatic get out clause rather than wasting money on an appeal. I think it is only about 5% of decisions that get overturned if memory serves right, although others may be able to be more concise. You have to prove that the judge was fundamentally wrong, which is not a easy hurdle to overcome.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2015 8:22:39 GMT
But will all the facts ever be made available to us? NH talked today about inconsistencies, but no-one seems to have a clue what those were. If it's going to an appeal there'll be no explanation of that point beforehand - though perhaps it will become clear in the subsequent decision document. That's going to be some way off though. If it doesn't go to appeal I doubt we'll ever learn any more detail. Ann, if we appeal it will be in the appeal papers but that is probably a week away before they decide.
The only businesses that decide in a panic are poor ones but here we have posters, that have almost certainly never run a business, urging our board to do exactly that.
Always All a bit pompous, dont you think? But to use your standpoint, anyone who has run a business and entered into a major contract will understand that it is quite important to understand the detail within that contract. This is sad, this whole debacle, but having read Vaughan's excellent summisation of the key issue underpinning the judgement I actually laughed. I then asked myself this. At what point did the main representatives on our side, Higgs and Watola, not understand that the contract was time limited? At what point did they not realise that a key clause had to be satisfied prior to the end date of the time limit? Is that complicated? I am sorry this reeks of gross incompetence and any director of any company owned by shareholders would be removed as a director for destroying the value of their shares by said incompetence. Whats even mire bizarre is that as majority shareholder he has wrecked in his own net worth. And now he wants to appeal, I wait with baited breath for the grounds for such an appeal.
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