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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jan 26, 2015 0:39:48 GMT
Don't disagree. just a feeling that things go in circles, this year they are cutting back on big stores because of the internet, next year they want more large stores to meet the growing internet demand. Maybe? i had even wondered if the reason that Sainsburys have not legally pulled the plug on the contract is to keep the site as a possibility if things either improve in the retail sector or to ensure they can meet further internet demand, a sort of best of both worlds (of course the other rn maybe that as long as the contract is still in place no-one else can get their hands on the site if there is a 'someone' else). As to geographical coverage it's both a general point & a specific point. The general point being that there won't be a mass closing of stores as they need to ensure a reasonable coverage. The specific point is that I don't think that logic would save the Mem site on it's own because of the Filton store (as you say) would have to big a local geographic overlap. Unless Aldi and Lidl change their pricing or quality then they will both be here for the forseeable. I don't think that the internet will go away either. Those don't look like circular factors to me? I don't want to open up yesterday's bickering again, but only a small number of people really know what's going on, things aren't always what they appear to be. With Rovers, nothing would surprise me. No bickering from me jack I was just offering up an opinion that you & others blindly refuse to consider. As to this point I think we are largely agreeing? The only point I'm making i's 12 or 24 months ago Sainsburys & others were following a different path, that would've been backed by a report of some sort. So after it has gone badly wrong recently why assume that the latest report is gospel & won't change in the future? And if the future is the internet & home delivery why aren't Aldi & Lidl already dead in the water? All the above is only an opinion & conjecture, after all none of us are retail analysts (to my knowledge). My opinion & yours is only that opinions which will count for nothing when the judge reads the written submissions. Let's just hope it isn't a 10 minute read, as you seem to imply, & Sainsburys have a case to answer.
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Post by Topper Gas on Jan 26, 2015 8:32:19 GMT
Whilst the internet will be having some impact is it really that big an impact for the big suppermarkets, after all compare the number of cars leaving Tesco at Eastville to the number of Tesco vans etc, I'm guessing it's around 1% of the market, which is still dominated by the big 4 or 5 anyway.
Somehow Aldi/Lidl have hlep to bring back customers making small & often shopping trips to thier local stores, and you can't see that changing again any time soon.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 9:11:44 GMT
Whilst the internet will be having some impact is it really that big an impact for the big suppermarkets, after aOns, on line compare the number of cars leaving Tesco at Eastville to the number of Tesco vans etc, I'm guessing it's around 1% of the market, which is still dominated by the big 4 or 5 anyway. Somehow Aldi/Lidl have hlep to bring back customers making small & often shopping trips to thier local stores, and you can't see that changing again any time soon. I dont really think that counting the cars at Eastville Tesco in comparison to Home Delivery vans is very scientific, do you? According to figures from the ONS on line food sales rose by 37% in the three years to July 2014. Given trends in shopping I can only see that growing, personally. It appears the majors take the same view, hence their withdrawal from major new developnents. The point you make about "topping up" at your local convenience store is correct and reinforces the point.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 9:18:42 GMT
Adding 37% to not a lot is still not a lot ..... It is Aldi and Lidl that have kicked Tesco and Sainsbury's as someone said they don't do internet or home delivery, but do sell reasonable food at low prices. However, their range is limited, in the case of Aldi ( who is the only one I have near to me ) their prices are creeping up slowly as they gain market share, and the limited range can get a bit boring. Sainsbury's biggest issue is price - they are expensive - if they can address that I am sure people will return to their stores, so yes it could easily turn around. Asda have proved big stores can sell at competitive prices, just needs Sainsburys to get their act together.
The reality is Sainsbury's make good money, if their management think a store in a place like BS7 is not worth investing in that is a reflection on their lack of vision. Personally I think they want the store, they are just trying it on to get a lower price, that won't work though as we can't afford to move unless they cough up.
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Post by Topper Gas on Jan 26, 2015 10:46:05 GMT
It's probably not a lack of vision but just that they have now realised they've paid for too mcuh for the site, even we wonder why they were paying so much?, it will be interesting to see how far NH can afford to push our case and what the Courts make of it. As you suggest if we don't get circa £30m then the whole project collapses, which may well be unique as I doubt that normally applies to shopping centre developments where additional finance can be found elsewhere.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 11:57:40 GMT
Whilst the internet will be having some impact is it really that big an impact for the big suppermarkets, after aOns, on line compare the number of cars leaving Tesco at Eastville to the number of Tesco vans etc, I'm guessing it's around 1% of the market, which is still dominated by the big 4 or 5 anyway. Somehow Aldi/Lidl have hlep to bring back customers making small & often shopping trips to thier local stores, and you can't see that changing again any time soon. I dont really think that counting the cars at Eastville Tesco in comparison to Home Delivery vans is very scientific, do you? According to figures from the ONS on line food sales rose by 37% in the three years to July 2014. Given trends in shopping I can only see that growing, personally. It appears the majors take the same view, hence their withdrawal from major new developnents. The point you make about "topping up" at your local convenience store is correct and reinforces the point. Sainsbury's completed over 300,000 home deliveries in the 3 days before Christmas, so you are right, it's significant. Topper also seems to have forgotten that unless you get the punter into the store then there will be no impulse purchases. If I understand what he's saying, he's also asking Aldi to reverse their present trading policies, they are working hard to make sure that every one of the 1500 lines they carry (Tesco have circa 26000) is the best possible use of shelf space, what they are trying to achieve is to move away from being somewhere where people visit just to top up their main weekly shopping. The signs at Aldi and Lidl may be garish, almost tacky, but behind that are well run and agressive businesses.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 12:44:32 GMT
Adding 37% to not a lot is still not a lot ..... It is Aldi and Lidl that have kicked Tesco and Sainsbury's as someone said they don't do internet or home delivery, but do sell reasonable food at low prices. However, their range is limited, in the case of Aldi ( who is the only one I have near to me ) their prices are creeping up slowly as they gain market share, and the limited range can get a bit boring. Sainsbury's biggest issue is price - they are expensive - if they can address that I am sure people will return to their stores, so yes it could easily turn around. Asda have proved big stores can sell at competitive prices, just needs Sainsburys to get their act together. The reality is Sainsbury's make good money, if their management think a store in a place like BS7 is not worth investing in that is a reflection on their lack of vision. Personally I think they want the store, they are just trying it on to get a lower price, that won't work though as we can't afford to move unless they cough up. Yes I accept that percentages can be misleading but in this case the total average food store weekly sales on line in July 2014 was £154 million and trend growth is rapid. Not to be sniffed at and I am sure Sainsburys can sense the direction of travel.
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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jan 26, 2015 14:01:48 GMT
I do find it interesting how the thread has wandered away from are Sainsburys or Rovers on safe legal ground or not to examining / questioning the future direction of retailing. The future of retailing, whichever way you think it will go, only has one bearing on Rovers, ie whether big stores are in or out, legally it has no bearing whatsoever you just can't get out of a contract by saying we've changed our mind you can of course try that which is pretty much where we are now but in a legal judgement it will count for nothing. But what I truly find amazing is that between us non retail analysts the consensus (as much as we have a consensus!) is that the successful retailers will have a huge internet based product or have no internet based product at all. And that diverse path between retailers, to me, seems completely illogical. I suppose I view the future as the 'traditional' retailers lowering their costs as well as delivering an internet based capability and the low cost Germans having to embrace the internet, ie in 10 years perhaps they will all be pretty much identikit.
Just an observation again. oh and we seem to be back very close to a 'Current Affairs' topic!
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LPGas
Stuart Taylor
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,240
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Post by LPGas on Jan 26, 2015 14:26:22 GMT
Of course if in a few years we were to pull out of the EU, and slap some taxes on Lidl and Aldi, they wouldn't stay here too long. But seriously my Dad told me when I was a kid, "when you grow up, go in to selling food clothes, or become an undertaker. Of course the other think super markets look at is their "sphere of influence" and how many people live in it. The big supermarkets used to aim for 125,000, but they have lowered that considerably since Frome (pop 30,000)has Sainsburys, Asda and M&S, and they are big stores too, of course Sainsburys were the first to build. Interestingly, when I was a nipper, Frome had just about 10,000 inhabitants, and yes you could go out in to the country on your bike for a few hours and see no one. Ah, they were indeed the days.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 14:40:23 GMT
I do find it interesting how the thread has wandered away from are Sainsburys or Rovers on safe legal ground or not to examining / questioning the future direction of retailing. The future of retailing, whichever way you think it will go, only has one bearing on Rovers, ie whether big stores are in or out, legally it has no bearing whatsoever you just can't get out of a contract by saying we've changed our mind you can of course try that which is pretty much where we are now but in a legal judgement it will count for nothing. But what I truly find amazing is that between us non retail analysts the consensus (as much as we have a consensus!) is that the successful retailers will have a huge internet based product or have no internet based product at all. And that diverse path between retailers, to me, seems completely illogical. I suppose I view the future as the 'traditional' retailers lowering their costs as well as delivering an internet based capability and the low cost Germans having to embrace the internet, ie in 10 years perhaps they will all be pretty much identikit. Just an observation again. oh and we seem to be back very close to a 'Current Affairs' topic! Aldi have some decisions to make in the near future. They have now started to target A and B socioeconomic groups (middle and upper-middle class), those people are more likely to want to shop on-line. Watch this space. Lowering costs hasn't helped Sainsbury's, all it did was made price a topic for discussion, that highlighted the price gap, Aldi lowered their prices to maintain the gap. You have that luxury if you keep operational costs to a minimum.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 15:38:26 GMT
I do find it interesting how the thread has wandered away from are Sainsburys or Rovers on safe legal ground or not to examining / questioning the future direction of retailing. The future of retailing, whichever way you think it will go, only has one bearing on Rovers, ie whether big stores are in or out, legally it has no bearing whatsoever you just can't get out of a contract by saying we've changed our mind you can of course try that which is pretty much where we are now but in a legal judgement it will count for nothing. But what I truly find amazing is that between us non retail analysts the consensus (as much as we have a consensus!) is that the successful retailers will have a huge internet based product or have no internet based product at all. And that diverse path between retailers, to me, seems completely illogical. I suppose I view the future as the 'traditional' retailers lowering their costs as well as delivering an internet based capability and the low cost Germans having to embrace the internet, ie in 10 years perhaps they will all be pretty much identikit. Just an observation again. oh and we seem to be back very close to a 'Current Affairs' topic! Aldi have some decisions to make in the near future. They have now started to target A and B socioeconomic groups (middle and upper-middle class), those people are more likely to want to shop on-line. Watch this space. Lowering costs hasn't helped Sainsbury's, all it did was made price a topic for discussion, that highlighted the price gap, Aldi lowered their prices to maintain the gap. You have that luxury if you keep operational costs to a minimum. I have read with interest your pontifications on the current state of Supermarket world and i would like to know your thoughts on the rise and continued rise of Waitrose. Yes they have a Internet presence (i have used it and is very good), but what demographic are they going for ? The high end sector looks to be well populated with the likes of M&S so how come they have made a big splash in the market Remember Waitrose was the 2nd highest bidder for the mem when it was put out to tender
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Post by Blue Mist on Jan 26, 2015 15:52:14 GMT
Fair enough, but their latest report shows that the large stores are performing badly and that their 'Local' branches and internet/home delivery is propping up the overall trading figures. It didn't seem to be a question of physical location. That seems to be the picture being painted but how true is it. The internet is the growing ordering channel but that is delivered from the local superstore & won't work if delivered from the local convenience store as the range held there is to small. Location then does come into it as you won't be doing home delivery in Bristol from a store in Reading. You won't find out but I'd be really interested in how they 'measure' the costs of the internet business. Just an observation like! This is why Sainsbury trialed so called 'Dark stores' last year. They mimic retail stores but are entirely for staff to pick online orders. Much cheaper to build and maintain, location isnt as important so they can buy cheaper land to put them on. This is important because although online grocery retail is increasing, the profit margins are smaller (around%5) because of delivery costs which arent always entirely covered by the customer.
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intheknow
Archie Stephens
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 232
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Post by intheknow on Jan 26, 2015 16:28:31 GMT
I do find it interesting how the thread has wandered away from are Sainsburys or Rovers on safe legal ground or not to examining / questioning the future direction of retailing. The future of retailing, whichever way you think it will go, only has one bearing on Rovers, ie whether big stores are in or out, legally it has no bearing whatsoever you just can't get out of a contract by saying we've changed our mind you can of course try that which is pretty much where we are now but in a legal judgement it will count for nothing. But what I truly find amazing is that between us non retail analysts the consensus (as much as we have a consensus!) is that the successful retailers will have a huge internet based product or have no internet based product at all. And that diverse path between retailers, to me, seems completely illogical. I suppose I view the future as the 'traditional' retailers lowering their costs as well as delivering an internet based capability and the low cost Germans having to embrace the internet, ie in 10 years perhaps they will all be pretty much identikit. Just an observation again. oh and we seem to be back very close to a 'Current Affairs' topic! Aldi have some decisions to make in the near future. They have now started to target A and B socioeconomic groups (middle and upper-middle class), those people are more likely to want to shop on-line. Watch this space. Lowering costs hasn't helped Sainsbury's, all it did was made price a topic for discussion, that highlighted the price gap, Aldi lowered their prices to maintain the gap. You have that luxury if you keep operational costs to a minimum. So when Oldie is buying his red wine in lidl they've cracked it ?
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intheknow
Archie Stephens
Joined: May 2014
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Post by intheknow on Jan 26, 2015 16:31:25 GMT
Aldi have some decisions to make in the near future. They have now started to target A and B socioeconomic groups (middle and upper-middle class), those people are more likely to want to shop on-line. Watch this space. Lowering costs hasn't helped Sainsbury's, all it did was made price a topic for discussion, that highlighted the price gap, Aldi lowered their prices to maintain the gap. You have that luxury if you keep operational costs to a minimum. I have read with interest your pontifications on the current state of Supermarket world and i would like to know your thoughts on the rise and continued rise of Waitrose. Yes they have a Internet presence (i have used it and is very good), but what demographic are they going for ? The high end sector looks to be well populated with the likes of M&S so how come they have made a big splash in the market Remember Waitrose was the 2nd highest bidder for the mem when it was put out to tender Where/when did you get to hear about Waitrose being the 2nd highest bidder ? I've not seen that info
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Post by droitwichgas on Jan 26, 2015 16:43:12 GMT
Probably another rumour which over time has been accepted as fact, I can't imagine Waitrose would pay anywhere near Sainsbury's etc could offer given they have far less customer number though their store even if they a prepared to spond more per head.
As far as M&S they seemed to have lost their way and hardly have an high st presence like Waitrose have built up? Not sure anybody could do a full weekly shop with them like you can at Waitrose etc.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 16:51:50 GMT
Aldi have some decisions to make in the near future. They have now started to target A and B socioeconomic groups (middle and upper-middle class), those people are more likely to want to shop on-line. Watch this space. Lowering costs hasn't helped Sainsbury's, all it did was made price a topic for discussion, that highlighted the price gap, Aldi lowered their prices to maintain the gap. You have that luxury if you keep operational costs to a minimum. So when Oldie is buying his red wine in lidl they've cracked it ? Now you are being silly
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 16:59:27 GMT
Probably another rumour which over time has been accepted as fact, I can't imagine Waitrose would pay anywhere near Sainsbury's etc could offer given they have far less customer number though their store even if they a prepared to spond more per head. As far as M&S they seemed to have lost their way and hardly have an high st presence like Waitrose have built up? Not sure anybody could do a full weekly shop with them like you can at Waitrose etc. Interestingly enough I was looking at the Waitrose development in Chipping Sodbury recently. That must have been a real challenge, but I guess for them its all about demographics and product / service. They appear to have a plan, which is working.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 17:52:31 GMT
this supermarket analysis is so interesting i might stop watching football altogether and try out various food stores every saturday and start a supermarket strategy forum,,what do you reckon?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 18:00:18 GMT
this supermarket analysis is so interesting i might stop watching football altogether and try out various food stores every saturday and start a supermarket strategy forum,,what do you reckon? Possibly more interesting than your football analysis or other inane ramblings completing lacking in detail.
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Post by banjoflyer on Jan 26, 2015 18:55:54 GMT
Would have been interesting if TRASH/greens would have objected to Waitrose, it not being a hated BIG capitalist supermarket?
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