|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 26, 2016 21:41:04 GMT
Agreed. A group of similar-minded knuckle dragging, meatheads were initially laughed at and vilified about 90 years ago. But that was in Berlin, Munich etc. but then they found a figure head who coordinated their anger and spread fear and loathing to a population quick to despise people not the same as them. Much of of the resentment at the time was caused by an immensely punitive treaty created at the end of WW1. I just worry a highly economically damaging EU exit treaty may sow similar seeds. If you believe that claptrap then stand up to it. Actually there was a punitive treaty that us, as the UK, amongst others decided not to police so Hitler was able to build a military power to confront the world. To make comparisons to that time is pathetic, unless you're saying you haven't the back bone to prevent something similar happinging. We've actually voted, in my opinion, to leave an organisation that was trying to achieve something similar to what Hitler wanted, the EU just doesn't go for the wanton blood letting that Hitler favoured. |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 26, 2016 21:10:09 GMT
Mmm... Leaflets distributed in Cambridge today instructing "Polish vermin" to leave and elsewhere people being threatened with comments such as "we voted to leave, now you must leave"... is this the slippery slope many fretted over? and soon will we be burning books and smashing glass....... And today as a Leave voter I've watched Sri Lanka playing cricket wearing a Sri Lanka baseball cap, a pity about the weather but it was still better than the weather when I was in Sri Lanka. Point is isolated instants proves nothing. The alleged leaflets on Cambridge will only work if cowards decide not to stand up to them. |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 26, 2016 20:37:51 GMT
Epping, I agree the last referendum largely came down solely to immigration. Sadly in my opinion, a big issue which should be debated, but the EU questions also concerned trade, sovereignty, the ideal of a United Europe (a big advocate being Winston Churchill) etc. On Immigration happy to debate it. However, I do not completely understand the relevance of Somalis to this debate. Non-EU immigration is in control of nation states. Also as mentioned above all very well to have control on EU immigration, but if the result is the same regardless of whether we are in the EU or not, seems a bit pointless leaving. The Leave campaign have now admitted, after the event, that they did not promise to lower immigration. Its high because (a) our economy relatively to other states has done well and (b) we have some fundamental weaknesses in our economy on productivity. Some of our good performance is down to shovelling new labour inputs into the economy because the existing workforce is not educated enough, have a good infrastructure to kept the growth up and then (c) the elite whoever they are have not invested in accommodating that new labour input. Culturally I do not pick up major conflicts with Poles or the like. I find it ironic that Leave campaigned of potentially increasing immigration from the Commonwealth. Thats caused its own problems in the past. So I agree immigration is and was a big issue, however, I do not think BREXIT will change it at all. What we needed was the people who felt isolated and ignored to be invested in they weren't that is our problem. So we gain little and potentially lose a lot with weakening trade and political ties to the biggest market in the world just off our coast. Anyway such is life. We have to agree to disagree and hopefully build a country, because it is very divided at the moment, and all be getting smaller in the not too distant future with Scotland off. Was Churchill a big advocate of a politically integrated Europe? It's a fact that de gaulle , who sought refuge in the UK when his country capitulated to the Germans, vetoed Britain's original application for membership obviously we're weren't considered to be Europeans then. |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 26, 2016 16:47:10 GMT
How quickly we migrate from a detailed debate about the ramifications of Brexit to the issue of Somalians Every time. You really couldn't make it up The EU? |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 26, 2016 16:39:57 GMT
Amazing that in the UK you can't get a job because you can't speak Somalian, it would be a very justified reason if you were going for a job in Somalia. Shouldn't the responsibility lie with immigrants to learn the language of the country they have chosen to move to? I didn't say she couldn't get the job but the other applicant had experience with Somalian children but really we should expect immigrants to make their children intergrate from what my daughter has told me nort African men do not want their wives to become English but would rather keep them as they are in their homelands if the indiginous population treated their wives the same there would be uproar Get your hard hat on some people don't like the truth if it's like that |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 26, 2016 16:27:24 GMT
ive not finished the whole thread yet so i may be jumping the gun youve touched on a subject there, immigration is good/neccessary , BUT lets not beat around the bush whole areas of Bristol have been given our to somalians/north africans , in what way can that be fair ?. the housing list has been leapfrogged in one go, my son has to pay 850 a month because he has no chance of accomadation. secondly and no-one has mentioned it. they bring their desire for sharia law or their way of life , like it or not that played a big part in this vote as for the last 10 years or so even talking about immigration brought the hounds out My daughter did her teaching degree over the last few years completed her masters last week went for a job interview last week got down to the last two and then told she didn't have the job because she couldn't speak. Somali she hasn't a bad word to say about anyone always sees the best in people treats everyone the same etc the reason why we have such high numbers of asylum seekers etc here is because eu directives dictate how we must treat them and we obey all these rules the other eu countries where they should claim asylum send them on to Calais and also we are far too accomadating regards housing etc I am the son of an Irish immigrant and don't consider myself racist as I hate almost everyone regardless of colour or creed the only people I have any time for our gas family and I don't really like all of them rant over utg Amazing that in the UK you can't get a job because you can't speak Somalian, it would be a very justified reason if you were going for a job in Somalia. Shouldn't the responsibility lie with immigrants to learn the language of the country they have chosen to move to? |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 26, 2016 16:04:02 GMT
Yep we check the passport of everyone at the border and then say yep the EU says I can't stop you coming in if you have an EU passport. Is that to complicated for you to understand? Do lots of people you discuss things with land up blanking you? Only people that can't reason their argument, all of my friends can reason their arguments. The post below yours proves my point. |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 26, 2016 15:53:09 GMT
North America? Oh yes the EU has failed to conclude a deal with them and we don't know why because the negotiations are secret and not for the ears of us common people. And back to immigration, the only straw that the Remain camp have to grasp at. Goodness me you will want to know the negotiation details, whilst they are going on, for the next player about to join BRFC next. Yes the negotiations are taking far too long but we don't know, and should not know, what is being discussed. Sorry but I'm begining to see that many wouldn't understand the negotiations even if they were told what they were any more than they understood the reasons for staying in or leaving the EU. "The only straw"? What do you mean by that? It was the only thing that the leave campaign had to offer, other than banging the drum of "Rule Britannia" and "Independence Day". Well a free trade agreement is very simple, we trade with no tariffs. But the US trade agreement is on secret because it would become apparent that EU governments don't want a free trade agreement they want a trade agreement that days this is free, that is free but we can't include that because we are crap at it. PS why do you keep answering your own post? |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 26, 2016 15:45:33 GMT
The trouble is the press has blamed the EU for most things over 30+ years because it is an easy target and the headline sells papers. I see this result as a build up over that period. We as a country, and our press in particular, have never embraced what the EU and Europe has to offer. So true And the Remain camp were so inept they couldn't counter that opinion. So is that the fault of the Leave voters or the Remain camp? |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 26, 2016 15:41:48 GMT
its now our decision who comes in or doesnt come in, not brussels /strasbourg. true refugees are a different matter to the lot rioting/raping women in europe But it never was the decision of Brussels. We have Border Control without leaving the EU. We are not part of the Schengen Agreement. That is why there is a problem in Calais; they can't automatically come into the UK. Yep we check the passport of everyone at the border and then say yep the EU says I can't stop you coming in if you have an EU passport. Is that to complicated for you to understand? |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 26, 2016 15:39:37 GMT
They only work about 37 hours a week - that's why! :-) Exactly Epping, exactly. If you could produce three items in one hour in France and three in 1.5 hours in the UK who has the lower input cost and therefore greater Gross Profit? So I'm sure that inward investment in France has far outstripped that of the UK, any figures to prove that? |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 26, 2016 15:20:45 GMT
Well, we've just cut off our nose to spite our face, so why not them? It would be less of an issue for them: the EU collectively is a much bigger market for us than the UK is for any individual EU state. As for them starting a trade war, if we're going to compete against rather than with them, who's doing that? It's odd to pick a fight and get indignant at the thought that others won't protect their interest at least to the point of neutralising the effect. Ultimately if we don't get equivalent access to the single market as we do now in Europe then that shortfall in trade, if there is one, will have to be made up elsewhere. As people are stating that will have to be with the Far East, China etc, Russia and all the States preciously defined as BRICS. Given the political situations in those countries, good luck with agreeing a legally enforceable legal framework with them. But back to controlled immigration. Brexiteers have promised to reduce the overall level of immigration. Lets say, for the sake of argument net immigration target is set at 100,000, and visas will only be issued to that number.. What happens if there is a labour shortfall because the labour market demanded 200,000? ?? North America? Oh yes the EU has failed to conclude a deal with them and we don't know why because the negotiations are secret and not for the ears of us common people. And back to immigration, the only straw that the Remain camp have to grasp at. |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 26, 2016 8:40:21 GMT
Well according to the Remain camp everything I'd doom and gloom after voting Leave so obviously immigration will fall as why would Europeans or non Europeans want to come to a failing economy? Oh you're saying we'll still be a successful economy and people will still want to come. Perhaps you should consider your views on the success of the UK I see the debate has fallen on to immigration as the key issue. I do smile when Brexiteers promote Controlled Immigration over free movement. Controlled by whom? Oh the government. Great so now we have politically motivated people making decisions on the recruitment needs of private companies. Wasn't red tape supposed to be an issue? As Tanksfull indicated it is demand that fuels economic migration, putting a layer of pen pushing won't change that. Possibly for you but not for me, for myself it was always about the economy & trading with those parts of the world that exactly exist outside the EU. But it would seem that you & Tanksful believe the EU will cut off it's own nose to spite it's face. But no-one in the Remain camp has explained why it would be a positive move by the EU to start a trade war, ultimately I don't think they will, but if they do it will just prove that the Leave camp were correct in pointing out that the EU is very insular & not really interested or focused on trade with countries outside the EU. As to the immigration point I'm quite happy with people coming here to work (& indeed most of then work exceedingly hard) but successive governments have used that immigration as cheap labour so that they don't have to deal with real issues like making the unemployed (what is the official rate now 1.6m?) here actually work & paying them to not work. If there are so many jobs being taken by immigrants why would any sane person pay people not to work? Then you get to the control issue, yes controlled by the government (are you aware of anywhere else in the world that supports uncontrolled immigration?), both in terms of the skills required by the economy (I mean was or economy & way of life in danger of collapsing because there were not enough car washers?) but also the quality of people unfortunately we breed enough murderers (as shown with the despicable murder of the MP) & rapists to not need to import them. But perhaps murderers & rapists is the collateral damage that people like yourself believe is a price worth paying for freedom of movement? |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 25, 2016 21:55:17 GMT
County, but is it not the result not how it is achieved. I suspect many on the Leave side (maybe not you) will be disappointed if migration levels do not fall. If they stay high for economic reasons i.e. we are successful outside the EU will that not disappoint some who voted Leave. I really hope we are. There is the argument migrants, and I concentrate on EU migrants, we could always control non-EU migration, put pressure on social facilities, however crap social facilities is not the EUs fault, but the UK governments. I can only speak for myself, if it economically worthwhile to have immigrants then great I'll be happy with that as for other people they have to speak for themselves that's the benefit of living in a democracy, and possible why some people leave where they live to come here. Perhaps people should try to spread the right to democracy and free speech in other countries. In honestly people haven't the balls to do that. |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 25, 2016 21:50:01 GMT
And? When Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU but were denied free movement (oh yes the Remain never said that's the fact if Europe) the UK let a determined number of them to have work visas to work in the fields of Lincolnshire and that is how it will work in the future Sorry, I genuinly do not understand the question or the point (if there is one)? I gave a specific example of the positives of immigration. Do I want to see my environment changed with people and situations I'm not comfortable with? Who would? I feel deeply for those in Lincolnshire whose lives have been drastically changed. I do not think that is racist. The point is there are jobs which need to be carried out and those currently in the area either do not want to do them or they all have employment; otherwise the immigrants would not be there and not be needed. If they don't come in through free movement they would likely come in through a visa. I'm not quite sure what the difference is. I'm not sure how leaving the EU has changed anything on the immigration front? I would love to hear other people's views on what will change. Well obviously there is a difference that you can't understand. In the EU anyone can come here regardless whether we need them or not. Outside the Eu we can decide if we need people or not. Is that to complicated for you to understand? |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 25, 2016 21:38:27 GMT
Open door EU immigration is a massive problem. That is why "Leave" won. Controlled immigration is something the political elite refused to contemplate (well they can't because they are bound by EU law / EU freedom of movement). Being opposed to open door EU immigration does not make anyone racist. At least we can continue to have that debate now without being called openly racist. I certainly am not. As a consequence of this Referendum - the Labour Party will get torn apart. Labour heartlands like Hartlepool (Mandelsons old constituency - excuse me while I P*ss myself) were the reason we voted out. Labour will get wiped out in England - just like they did in Scotland. I'm a right-winger. But the death of decent opposition to a Tory Government (whoever that may be) worries me. Of course it is not racist. However, please explain your understanding of the difference between "open door immigration" and "controlled immigration" specifically where the EU is concerned? I'm referring to the actual/practical result not the theory. Will we have less people coming in to the country? Because we currently have the highest level of employment for many, many years we will still have the same amount of immigration and substantially increase the cost of administering it. Why do we "foreign" have doctors and nurses? In the UK we already have £1.8m workers from the EU and £2m workers from the "rest of the world". If we are to grow and become richer where do we get the extra employees from? Well according to the Remain camp everything I'd doom and gloom after voting Leave so obviously immigration will fall as why would Europeans or non Europeans want to come to a failing economy? Oh you're saying we'll still be a successful economy and people will still want to come. Perhaps you should consider your views on the success of the UK |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 25, 2016 21:21:18 GMT
It was a binary vote, yes or no. No Parliamentary constituencies, boundary changes, tactical voting. Pure Democracy and democracy won. All these people whining about the vote. Compared to three terms of Mrs T. and the Currie Shagger this is a walk in the park ffs!!! What would be interesting would be the views of the 26/27% that didnt vote. Did they not know enough?, did they think it all bollox, did they think it should be left up to those we already elected? Why would it be interesting? People decided they couldn't be bothered to vote, in many ways it's like people not voting for or against the fans directors. |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 25, 2016 21:17:48 GMT
A comment on immigration:- 10 or 12 years ago I dealt with a manufacturing company in a fairly rural area. They employed around 400 people. Because they found it impossible to employ more local people, so that they could expand further, they took on around 40 Polish employees. Their choice was simple: employ the 40 or so Polish (it may well be many more now) or send the majority of their production abroad - probably to China - and only retain short-run and high quality work which would have resulted in 350 redundancies. In a nutshell employing those 40 people saved 350 jobs. And? When Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU but were denied free movement (oh yes the Remain never said that's the fact if Europe) the UK let a determined number of them to have work visas to work in the fields of Lincolnshire and that is how it will work in the future |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 25, 2016 19:17:58 GMT
Thank you Seth. You're probably right (hopefully, anyway). But imagine Boris as PM and Donald as President of the USA. Any words of comfort on that prospect? If Donald is president we'll almost certainly have a trade agreement with the world's largest economy before the EU does, and they've had a 40 year head start on us. PS sorry you don't feel able to debate your ageist comments |
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 25, 2016 16:22:48 GMT
I don't think think the petulant child remark is particularly helpful when you talk about people pulling together  , and isn't it odd that Farage has talked about people pulling together, yet before the vote he said he would have contested any close result! However, I do agree that the remainers among us have to accept and get on with it. I think- certainly in the short term- that the uncertainty will create a few economic problems, but I suspect that in a few years time, most of us won't even give a seconds thought as to whether we are in the EU or not, as we will all just get on with our lives pretty much in the same way we have always done.
Exactly Probably, as you said Rex, the major change will be the swapping of a centre right government to a more hard core right wing. I the best case scenario is we, as a country, go through the same six years of of economic stagnation endured after the crash of 2008 and we end up in the same place as now. Best case Or the EU comes to its senses, and it sounds like Merkel is edging that way, and realises a trade war is not in anyone's interested and we can start from where we are today but add further trade agreements with other countries that the EU in 60 odd years haven't bothered to try and setup. |
|
, and isn't it odd that Farage has talked about people pulling together, yet before the vote he said he would have contested any close result!