irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jun 1, 2020 19:38:30 GMT
Just in case anyone fancies chiming in I think we have rough idea of the following;
-We should get some Test Matches in July against the West Indies followed by some against Pakistan. Biosecure containment at Rose Bowl and Old Trafford. I hope this will be fun - bit of a shame there's not more of a marquee matchup in there. Windies did quite well 2 years ago here but still look quite underpowered in the Test arena. Pakistan have had a generally dire last 12 months as well. Real issue with the depth of Test cricket right now - only us, Aussies, India and New Zealand half decent at the moment. Should be an opportunity to have a look at some people and start thinking what the next Ashes side looks like.
-The controversial Hundred has been pushed back a year and some think this should be an opportunity to shelve it completely. Something that looks very unlikely to happen given the amount pf cash and effort the ECB has invested in the thing. I think this debate is something of a media concoction and that there isn't really much of a story here. ECB had little choice but to postpone but no particular reason to abandon the concept.
-It looks like we will be getting some kind of domestic season from August although the format has not been confirmed. Rumours are for a regionalised version of the Championship and a T20 tournament. I'd be quite happy with that if it does occur - at least there would be some Championship cricket to watch. Streaming also suggested which I think, if done properly (ie. not just the one static camera thing they do for the highlights on Twitter) could be something of a sneaky game changer for the Championship in the longer term. A chance to tap into the huge latent market for it anyway.
-Looks more and more likely that the November T20 World Cup in Australia will be postponed. The issue there I think is whether would then be a knock on effect on the schedule. Could potentially interfere with Ashes planning.
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 313
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Post by jackthegas on Jun 2, 2020 9:16:14 GMT
I know there are far more important things in the World than cricket right now, but I must admit, I am really looking forward to watching a bit of cricket later in the summer (although I have enjoyed some of the re-runs on BBC radio this spring - good background noise whilst working). I have heard that players will either be in the one day squad or the test squad, which will make for some interesting decisions with regard to our multi format players. I had a go at trying to write down two teams for both test and ODIs. I think you can name two really strong sides, which shows two things. Firstly, we have some decent strength in depth, and secondly, formats are diverging. I came up with this for the test side:
Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Sam Curran
Leach
Broad
Anderson
Reserves: Bess, Wood, Denely, Jennings, Virdi, Craig Overton, Jamie Overton, Stone, Bracey(!), Brookes, Carse, Dawson, Gleeson, Helm, Lawrence, Robinson
and for the one day side:
Roy
Bairstow
Hain
Morgan
Banton
Buttler
Moeen
Woakes - Jordan (T20I)
Tom Curran (ODI)
Archer
Rashid
Reserves: Billings, Mahmood, Parkinson, Brown, Gregory, Vince, Duckett, Evans, Malan, Jacks, Kohler-Cadmore, Livingstone, Salt, Topley, Wiley
Firstly, with regard to the uber squads, what a kick in the teeth for Jamie Porter and Sam Northeast. Two of the stand out performers in County Cricket over the last 5 years and the selectors have decided they aren't even in the best 60 odd cricketers in the country. I think Harry Gurney will feel aggrieved too. Secondly, here are some words I thought perhaps I may never type again, congratulations to Gloucestershire cricketer, James Bracey, for his call up to the England squad!
Some of the names in the squad that are exciting are Carse (who I must admit, I have seen very little of, but an all-rounder that can bowl close to 90mph is always an exciting prospect. I also like Brookes and Helm. Brookes is quicker but every time I have seen Helm, he has been the stand out bowler in a very good Middlesex attack. I'd compare him to Stuart Broad. Same kind of height and pace and he is more likely to get movement off the seam than swing it. He doesn't seem to bowl many bad balls. I also like Lawrence although he is another middle order player when what we really need is a number 3.
I put Archer in the one day side because I am not sure you can pick Anderson, Broad, Leach and Archer in the same eleven. I know Archer can bat, but it just makes our tail a bit long. If we need a bit of pace in the side then Wood can come in. I would imagine that between them Wood, Anderson and Broad can be rotated across the 6 tests. I'd be surprised if they managed to stay fit for all of them. If the selectors go with Archer in the test team then I'd probably pick Bess ahead of Leach. Denley is probably unlucky to move on, but it just feels like a good time to try and find a longer term answer at number 3.
Sam Hain is probably the only surprise in my ODI team, but he has a phenomenal record in list A cricket. I really think he deserves a chance.
Famous last words, because the Windies always have the propensity to self combust, but I think they are a team on the up. They often seem to raise their game against England, they have a quality bowling attack and I am looking forward to seeing whether the likes of Hope and Hetmyer have progressed. I am not quite so clued up with regard to Pakistan Irish but their bowlers usually do well in the UK.
I quite like the idea of a regional County Championship with a playoff to decide the overall winner. I know this isn't a popular view, but I do support moving to a three division Championship. I actually think, given the extra competition, and the desire to play some first class cricket in the high season, it is inevitable at some point. I guess the drawback to a regional structure is that you lose that competitive edge with regard to promotion and relegation. The fixed camera from both ends synced with the BBC commentary has been gaining traction in the last few years. I think Somerset especially have reported very strong viewing figures. I would imagine, the issue with having more than one fixed camera at each end is that the cost ramps up quite quickly. You start to need camera men and a director. I do think it's something the ECB could fund at one game in each round though. You could even make highlights available once a week on terrestrial TV. Sky holding the rights to Championship cricket and showing one game a season is a real frustration of mine, but I guess they have decided that the cost is prohibitive. Sky are either all or nothing though. The full 27 HD cameras and a - list broadcasters or nothing. Half a dozen cameras and syncing with the BBC commentary would be a good deal cheaper I would think.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jun 2, 2020 11:40:42 GMT
I don't think there's anything wrong with pining for cricket! It's certainly true that summer doesn't feel quite right without it and, as much as I would like to lay claim to being a more well rounded than this, I don't think there's many things that could give my mental health more of a boost than it's return. Not that bothered about football coming back at all but cricket would be fantastic. The recreational is on a different trajectory to the professional and the League I play in up here is quite optimistic that club cricket will get the green light to return before the County game does. They are planning for a mid-July start which if extended till the end of September means we could get in half a season. All a bit speculative and dependent on many things of course but it does look like we will play some cricket this year. Of course it will be tightly regulated and there will be many necessary adjustments- we might not even play with umpires for example and keepers may have to stand back with batsmen not allowed out of their crease to play spinners etc. But at this point I think most people would just take getting back out there. The fact it is likely to comeback before the County game means it's highly likely that top pros will be playing club cricket to tune up, which should produce some interesting scorecards!
That's an interesting point about splitting the squads and perhaps also a little experiment as to whether modern players really do value Test Match cricket over the one day game as they claim to. Although perhaps that conflict would be made easier by the cancelling of the T20 World Cup. Ie. Would Stokes and Curren rather play in the One Day team under certain circumstances? I also find it unlikely that Buttler would be prepared to cede his Test place which is under so much threat. You'd still make England comfortable favourites in both formats especially if opposition have the same restrictions.
It is clearly the perfect chance to have a look at people and it's funny how some people's faces don't fit. It has clearly been decided that Porter is just not quick enough. You'd have thought Philander's success would have at least led to some weakening of the assumptions around pace but apparently not. Northeast is a bit more inexplicable. It's so strange that he's never had much of a look in. As for Gurney, I've always felt England were strangely reluctant to have a look at left arm seamers. It took Sidebottom years of being one the best bowlers in the country before he got a proper look in, Lewry was never given a chance despite consistent performances for years and any Gloucester fan knows about Mike Smith. I'm not saying those guys were world beaters but some far more mediocre bowlers were given opportunities ahead of them. It seems to me that we have always under valued left arm seam in this country and I don't really know why that is especially given that most right handed batsmen will admit that they absolutely hate facing it.
Tbe split squad thing will open up the one day squad a little bit. Success has understandably made it a bit of a closed shop in recent years. So it will be interesting to see if people like Hains do get a look it. Livingstone would be the other one I'd consider - absolutely immense talent but has undoubtedly gone backwards the last couple of years at Lancs. They should absolutely use these games as a chance to have a look at some different people in the ODI's though.
From your list I'd probably switch Woakes to the Test squad because we look a bit inexperienced without him in there somewhere. Also, is Leach definitely going to play? I thought he was still having some doubts. Can't see Bracey actually getting a game but it is nice to see him in the squad. He's definitely one of those for whom this is particularly bad timing as there was an opportunity for him to really make a case for himself at Div 1 level. There's enough doubt about the England batting still that he has every chance of getting a look in at some point though I think.
So here's a question (or 2 questions possibly) - how are we pigeonholing Bairstow and Ali now? Are we saying they are both primarily ODI players? 2 years ago these guys were our leading Test run scorer and wicket taker? Both were in the top 5 in the World. Are we now moving on from them in the Test arena? I can see Moen being happy to ease back in to international cricket with ODI's. Bairstow doesn't strike me as the type who will be happy with this though. They are similar cases in that they were both clearly burnt out by the game.
I also think the Windies are a reasonable young team. They showed really backbone in England 2 years ago. Shai Hope's match winning Headingley knock was as good an innings as you will see. There is some real talent there on the batting side. I would have said their bowling is still a bit underpowered though for an English summer but you disagree? Pakistan have a genuinely exciting battery of young fast bowlers coming through who should enjoy playing in England. But they've struggled in the spin department and their batting has been absolutely dire of late. You are right though that both these teams tend to overperform in England compared to their other away performances. So maybe I'm being pessimistic. I know I was guilty of it in the opening post but we really do need to get away from the 'it's all about the Ashes' narrative in Test cricket. It's contributing to the dilution of the format. If I was a non-Ashes cricketer, I don't know how motivated I would be about Test cricket because it never gets properly hyped with possible exception of India. Test cricket will not survive if it becomes 2 tiered. It particularly needs a strong Pakistan.
I'm not necessarily against the regionalisation of Championship cricket as a way to secure it's future provided that there were much more games played in high summer. I would trade off the number of games for a Championship which played a substantial number of fixtures in June/July/August which is not currently the case. I don't I'm likely to get that though so in its absence I'd rather hold onto the current format in the long term. I have this fantasy that if the Championship were sold separately to the rest of the Domestic TV rights (and in my opinion the fact Sky doesn't actually show the bloody games should mean they void the rights to the coverage of it) it would get picked up by a small terrestrial broadcaster. The obvious candidate would be ITV 4. Look at what it does with the snooker coverage. It wants an older captive audience for its advertisers and it needs schedule filler for that audience. To me Championship cricket is perfect for that. I take the point about added expense and I'm not proposing an all singing all-dancing approach. But given that we're all locked down would it kill the ECB to provide 4 cameras (one at each end and 2 on the side) and a director at each venue linked to the BBC commentary ? I'm not asking for perfection here - just improvements on what we already have.
The other thought I have about Domestic cricket is whether there would be any legs in a one innings/one day tournament. Ie. A one day tournament without Overs restrictions. So in essence a One Day Championship match.
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 313
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Post by jackthegas on Jun 3, 2020 10:23:26 GMT
During my (middling standard) cricketing career non-playing umpires were a luxury. Unless you mean literally no umpire, in which case about 20% of my dismissals would have disappeared overnight as I assume you are effectively playing without LBWs? I suppose that might have been offset by the chance that a keeper might actually have held on to the odd catch if he wasn't stood up to the stumps!
You are right about left arm seamers, but I think that unwillingness has changed over the last few years. Sam Curran and David Willey have both played a good number of games and Reece Topley is in the squad. You are right - left arm quick bowling is enough of a rarity that most right handers do hate facing it. Makes you wonder why almost no right hand fast bowlers go round the wicket to right hand batsemn.
The other guy who must feel a bit miffed to be left out is Steve Finn. Somewhere there is a parallel universe in which the umpires told Grahame Smith to get on with the game back in 2012 and the no ball rule was not changed. Steve Finn is still bowling 90mph+ and has taken 400 wickets, including a significant number in Australia.
I think Moeen still gets into our best test team. If the squads weren't spit this summer then I would have him in both the ODI team and test team. I am sure he will play in India this winter. I am not so sure that Bairstow's issue was fatigue. I think in order to improve his white ball game he started staying legside of the ball. It's revolutionised his white ball game, but it has coincided with a downturn in his test form. I think he needs to tighten up his technique. If we move on from Buttler in the test team then I think Foakes gets a chance next. It is a difficult to see Bairstow getting the gloves back. I would not want to go back to picking Bairstow as a specialist batsman at 6. I like using this position to blood a youngster. So that means, if he is going to get back in the side, he might have to look at the number 3 spot. I am not sure his technique is tight enough.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jun 3, 2020 13:29:49 GMT
During my (middling standard) cricketing career non-playing umpires were a luxury. Unless you mean literally no umpire, in which case about 20% of my dismissals would have disappeared overnight as I assume you are effectively playing without LBWs? I suppose that might have been offset by the chance that a keeper might actually have held on to the odd catch if he wasn't stood up to the stumps! You are right about left arm seamers, but I think that unwillingness has changed over the last few years. Sam Curran and David Willey have both played a good number of games and Reece Topley is in the squad. You are right - left arm quick bowling is enough of a rarity that most right handers do hate facing it. Makes you wonder why almost no right hand fast bowlers go round the wicket to right hand batsemn. The other guy who must feel a bit miffed to be left out is Steve Finn. Somewhere there is a parallel universe in which the umpires told Grahame Smith to get on with the game back in 2012 and the no ball rule was not changed. Steve Finn is still bowling 90mph+ and has taken 400 wickets, including a significant number in Australia. I think Moeen still gets into our best test team. If the squads weren't spit this summer then I would have him in both the ODI team and test team. I am sure he will play in India this winter. I am not so sure that Bairstow's issue was fatigue. I think in order to improve his white ball game he started staying legside of the ball. It's revolutionised his white ball game, but it has coincided with a downturn in his test form. I think he needs to tighten up his technique. If we move on from Buttler in the test team then I think Foakes gets a chance next. It is a difficult to see Bairstow getting the gloves back. I would not want to go back to picking Bairstow as a specialist batsman at 6. I like using this position to blood a youngster. So that means, if he is going to get back in the side, he might have to look at the number 3 spot. I am not sure his technique is tight enough. I'm quite fortunate in that for some reason Greater Manchester has a lot of umpires. So we get neutral umpires even for 2nd and 3rd XI games. It's really odd. I've not come across that anywhere else. There was an incident in a 2nd team game I was skippering 2 years ago where there was a mess up of the scheduling and the umpires didn't turn up. The opposition genuinely wanted to call off the game because of this. We had to have 2 crisis meetings before agreeing to just umpire ourselves, something which to me was completely normal. It was bright sunny day in August with 22 players in position and we almost didn't because some people weren't that there were no proper umpires. It was bizarre but they don't realise how spoiled they are up here with that. I don't think anything has been agreed yet but I'd expect to see a number of odd rule alterations to make it happen.
I'm always surprised bowlers at the top level don't switch sides of the wicket more often. You'd think it would at least keep the batsmen guessing - almost like a bowling change. It must be to do with what bowlers are comfortable with. Most spinners are used to switching but seamers aren't.
Finn is a really strange case. Do you think it was really that moment that did for him? Or was it injuries maybe? Listening to him on the commentary in the winter he sounded pretty resigned to not playing for England again at this point. He seemed to go from extremely promising prospect to slightly washed up journeyman almost overnight. A bit peculiar. It's been a bit done to death but I think Liam Plunkett has been harshly dealt with. Even if you didn't think he could get to the next World Cup, he was our best bowler in the last one and surely would be at least in the frame for the T20 World Cup. Plus his story is quite inspiring and you'd think it would be a good example to everyone that it's never too late and you should keep plugging away. Sidelining him at this stage seems unnecessarily brutal to me.
I can imagine Bairstow being quite bitter about the turn of events that have occurred. He always did have a slighty unorthodox technique and it seems to me that he gets bowled too often for a top level international batsmen. But I think I would be prepared to go back to him as the Test Keeper. Foakes is the best keeper but his batting has been a bit overhyped I feel. I'm a bit suspicious of the hype machine around Surrey and Yorkshire players given their high ranking advocates in the media - am I the only person who thinks it's a disgrace that Alec Stewart is used as a pundit when he is also a player agent for most of the promising Surrey players? If I was Buttler though I would be constantly in the ear of England management that I wanted to play Test cricket this summer not the ODI's because I think if he doesn't then he's probably out for good.
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 313
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Post by jackthegas on Jun 3, 2020 14:21:27 GMT
During my (middling standard) cricketing career non-playing umpires were a luxury. Unless you mean literally no umpire, in which case about 20% of my dismissals would have disappeared overnight as I assume you are effectively playing without LBWs? I suppose that might have been offset by the chance that a keeper might actually have held on to the odd catch if he wasn't stood up to the stumps! You are right about left arm seamers, but I think that unwillingness has changed over the last few years. Sam Curran and David Willey have both played a good number of games and Reece Topley is in the squad. You are right - left arm quick bowling is enough of a rarity that most right handers do hate facing it. Makes you wonder why almost no right hand fast bowlers go round the wicket to right hand batsemn. The other guy who must feel a bit miffed to be left out is Steve Finn. Somewhere there is a parallel universe in which the umpires told Grahame Smith to get on with the game back in 2012 and the no ball rule was not changed. Steve Finn is still bowling 90mph+ and has taken 400 wickets, including a significant number in Australia. I think Moeen still gets into our best test team. If the squads weren't spit this summer then I would have him in both the ODI team and test team. I am sure he will play in India this winter. I am not so sure that Bairstow's issue was fatigue. I think in order to improve his white ball game he started staying legside of the ball. It's revolutionised his white ball game, but it has coincided with a downturn in his test form. I think he needs to tighten up his technique. If we move on from Buttler in the test team then I think Foakes gets a chance next. It is a difficult to see Bairstow getting the gloves back. I would not want to go back to picking Bairstow as a specialist batsman at 6. I like using this position to blood a youngster. So that means, if he is going to get back in the side, he might have to look at the number 3 spot. I am not sure his technique is tight enough. I'm quite fortunate in that for some reason Greater Manchester has a lot of umpires. So we get neutral umpires even for 2nd and 3rd XI games. It's really odd. I've not come across that anywhere else. There was an incident in a 2nd team game I was skippering 2 years ago where there was a mess up of the scheduling and the umpires didn't turn up. The opposition genuinely wanted to call off the game because of this. We had to have 2 crisis meetings before agreeing to just umpire ourselves, something which to me was completely normal. It was bright sunny day in August with 22 players in position and we almost didn't because some people weren't that there were no proper umpires. It was bizarre but they don't realise how spoiled they are up here with that. I don't think anything has been agreed yet but I'd expect to see a number of odd rule alterations to make it happen.
I'm always surprised bowlers at the top level don't switch sides of the wicket more often. You'd think it would at least keep the batsmen guessing - almost like a bowling change. It must be to do with what bowlers are comfortable with. Most spinners are used to switching but seamers aren't.
Finn is a really strange case. Do you think it was really that moment that did for him? Or was it injuries maybe? Listening to him on the commentary in the winter he sounded pretty resigned to not playing for England again at this point. He seemed to go from extremely promising prospect to slightly washed up journeyman almost overnight. A bit peculiar. It's been a bit done to death but I think Liam Plunkett has been harshly dealt with. Even if you didn't think he could get to the next World Cup, he was our best bowler in the last one and surely would be at least in the frame for the T20 World Cup. Plus his story is quite inspiring and you'd think it would be a good example to everyone that it's never too late and you should keep plugging away. Sidelining him at this stage seems unnecessarily brutal to me.
I can imagine Bairstow being quite bitter about the turn of events that have occurred. He always did have a slighty unorthodox technique and it seems to me that he gets bowled too often for a top level international batsmen. But I think I would be prepared to go back to him as the Test Keeper. Foakes is the best keeper but his batting has been a bit overhyped I feel. I'm a bit suspicious of the hype machine around Surrey and Yorkshire players given their high ranking advocates in the media - am I the only person who thinks it's a disgrace that Alec Stewart is used as a pundit when he is also a player agent for most of the promising Surrey players? If I was Buttler though I would be constantly in the ear of England management that I wanted to play Test cricket this summer not the ODI's because I think if he doesn't then he's probably out for good.
That is comical. When I was in my early teens we played in the Stroud Premier which fed into the Gloucestershire League, the top of which feeds into the WEPL. It was a really average standard of cricket, primarily played by men that didn't want to travel too far on a Saturday. It was also 40 overs a side so started at 2 and was usually done just after 7. All very family friendly. The league had a number of neutral umpires and we used to get at least one most weeks. Then we got promoted into the Gloucestershire League and that stopped. Even at the top of the County League and bottom division of the WEPL, the best we'd get is an umpire that was a non playing member of the club. As a bowler, the best you could hope for is that they liked to get too involved in the game! With regard to bowlers changing the angle of attack, I guess the away swinger to the right hander is the more natural delivery for a right arm bowler; it certainly was for me. If you don't have the inswinger, going around the wicket takes LBW out of the game. Not sure why professionals with the skill to move the ball away from a left hander from around the wicket don't try that line of attack more often to a right hander though. Injuries definitely played their part with Finn, but as a result of him continually kicking the stumps over, he cut his run up in half didn't he? I wonder whether that contributed to his injury problems. When Archer was bowling to Smith at Lords last year, Sky showed a list of the top 20 odd spells in terms of pace delivered since 2000 ish. Finn's name appeared on that list a few times. Just goes to show how important it is that we look after Archer. I think how we replace Plunkett is one of the big questions facing the ODI side but that is not to say that it isn't right that we look to move on. I think in the build up to the World Cup his pace dropped and he looked less effective. It's why Wood came in for him at the start of the tournament. I think his effectiveness was in part due to the difficult pitches we played on. I am not sure he'd have had the same impact on good batting tracks. With regard to Foakes, yes he is probably a better player out of the side than in it. What I like though is that his approach compliments our middle order. He's a bit more of a traditional test batsman. The rest of the middle order (with the exception of Stokes who has developed his game) are dashers. You are right with regard to Buttler, but I wonder what he wants? I don't think he could complain if the selectors took things out his hands either. I had a real problem when Stewart was a player agent and worked for TMS. Less of an issue now he is effectively Surrey's Director of Cricket. The BBC and Sky have used Paul Farbrace recently too, who holds a similar role at Warwickshire. At least he actually watches some First Class cricket in order to form an opinion. Michael Vaughan was championing Zac Crawley before the winter tours off the back of his mate Rob Key's recommendation! You also have to say that most of the time, over the last couple of years at least, the players he has really put forward for England recognition, namely Pope, Burns, Foakes and the Currans have all done pretty well. I don't remember him being quite as vocal when they picked Stoneman or when everyone was clamoring for Borthwick to come in and bat 3 and he was happy to call them out when they picked Pope and batted him at 4. To me, Stewart seemed much more qualified for the Head of England cricket role than Ashley Giles. Surrey were a bit of a mess when he rejoined them and in recent years they have done a good job of balancing young English talent, journeymen and World class players. Given the budget they have, it would be easy to have the journeymen and the overseas superstars and forget the home grown talent (I am looking at you Notts) |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jun 4, 2020 14:06:03 GMT
The umpiring problem is a perennial one in club cricket and it isn't going to get solved any time soon. The current situation is going to make it worse too given the age of the umpires means many are going to have to stay self-isolated even if we do come back. Not sure that's something the top players at my club have realised. In the long term perhaps someone will be able to invent a cheap portable version of hawk eye which would be a game changer for club cricket. Not happening any time soon though. One reason I think they have so many umpires up here in Manchester is that they pay them so well. If you do a 40 Over Sunday game you get £42 and if you do a Saturday 50 Over one you get £50 (I have discovered that, outrageously, referees at Conference South/North level and below get considerable less than this). So that's sufficient that it gives some of the umpires quite a decent boost to their pensions. The downside is that many carry on years after they probably should have quit and that's a genuine safety issue. I play at a reasonable standard - we're one of the best 2nd teams in the area and most of the sides we play are 1st XI's which means we play against quite a few teams that have professionals. We're just at the point at which umpire numbers begin to drop off and so we get the crapper ones bluntly which tends to mean a lot of them are in their 80s. The main issue I have is that some of them can't really move and some of these pros can hit the ball very hard so I genuinely worry that they're going to get seriously hurt. You'd still rather have a crap umpire than no umpire on the whole - it just makes the day more enjoyable especially for Captains.
Westcountry club umpiring has always been very patchy. I had the same experience as you in the Bristol and District/lower reaches of WEPL. Quite a decent standard yet still no guarantee of umpires. I even played in a game once in Bristol where both teams asked the neutral umpire to stand down so we could do it ourselves because he was so bad that he was ruining everyone's afternoon! That didn't go down well but we were right - it was like he'd never seen a game of cricket before. Players umpiring is always tricky - even as a bowler I'm happy to accept the unwritten compromise that you won't get much that isn't absolutely stone dead provided both sides abide bv that and the batting side doesn't use it as a tactical advantage. The only time I've ever really lost my temper on a cricket field was when it was clear that the opposition batsmen were using this as a strategy to plant their feet permanently across the line and sweep behind square knowing they'd never be given out. As a club player you need to be able to play a game that at least feels like normal cricket otherwise there's no point bothering really. In general though I get it - people say batting team umpires cheat for their side but I don't think that's true most of the time. The psychology is simpler than that - if I give a guy out LBW I've got a sit in a dressing room with him, in a car with him, have him in my ear all summer and he's probably my mate anyway. That's way worse than a frustated bowler calling you a cheating so and so. It's just human nature. The worst of all is definitely the club umpire who shills for his team - embarrassing for everyone. Normally the club umpire leans a bit the other way for fear of looking biased but you get the occasional shameless one and they're the ones most likely to start a riot in my experience!
Anyway - enough about umpires! I do get the attraction of Foakes. Lord knows for years we've all been lamenting the basic lack of balance to England's batting. He does offer to restore that to an extent. He's an attractive batman anyway which ensures the media will be onside. I'm more than happy to consign Buttler permanently to the White ball game. I've never been convinced about him as a red ball cricketer from watching him at Somerset and Lancs. He has the potential to become one of the best one day batsmen of all time - I think he should embrace that as an ambition. His longer form innings have a quart into a pint pot feel about them - it doesn't seem like he's ever figured out a natural approach to the format. Bairstow is the one I have sympathy with though. I still think there's a World Class test cricketer in there that we need to re-find. I also think he's shown evidence of being able to play with his back to the wall at times which is something else we generally lack.
Is Plunkett really not in our top 55 players? Would it have killed them not to have had him in and around the camp? If nothing else, it would be a good morale boost not just for the current squad but for the County players on the outside looking in. There's an aspect of bloody mindedness about it that seems unecessary in the context. I'd have at least thought he was worth a consideration for the T20 World Cup - experience has to count for something doesn't it?
Finn seems a thoroughly well rounded and nice person. He also seems like someone with plenty of other options in life. I just wonder if he may have decided it wasn't worth the effort to put his body on the line. Just a theory but you have to really throw the kitchen sink at it to bowl like that and it is a long-term risk. Simon Jones is still having operations now just so he can walk. I can see how some people might judge it not to be worth it if you can still make a decent living out of the game. He does seem like one that got away though. The pace was one thing but I was always impressed by the nasty bounce he could get - not many can do that.
The angle thing is interesting and perhaps shows the different thought process of spinners and seams. Speaking as a bang average left-arm spinner angles is pretty much all I have! It's all about changing the delivery strike position, drifiting wider, changing the angle of attack etc. Seamers do less of this because they tend to see it more about rhythm and it is true that going round the wicket to the right hander narrows the margin of error for the ideal line considerably and takes LBW out of the frame for most bowlers. But when you see them labour all day fruitlessly it does surprise you that they don't just vary things up for the sake of it.
Maybe I just need to get with the programme regarding modern punditry and the idea that everyone is likely to have an angle to push. Farbrace has been an excellent addition. Vaughan is the one who winds me up these days because he is clearly so in with the ECB establishment. When he is pushing a line then you kind of know that it's the party line of the ECB leadership. Useful in one respect but it gets tiring. I'm sure at some point he will transition back into the ECB in a senior role. I know it's a small world but it's all a bit too cosy sometimes. There has to be 3rd way between Vaughan's sycophancy and Boycott's increasingly tiresome professional contrariness. When both stick to talking about cricket they're both decent enough but that seems harder to achieve every year. Interesting idea that Stewart could have gotten the England job - I'm not sure he really wanted it. He strikes me as someone with a lot of plates in the air. Far be it for me to defend Notts but Surrey do have a massive inherent advantage in bringing along young players. They sit in an enormous catchment area and have the perfect mix of very posh places with expensive schools and a diverse and growing young Asian community. The question is why it has taken them quite such a long time to develop this proper production line - 10 wasted years really. I can speak from experience in saying that the state of grassroots cricket in the Notts area is abolutely dire. Not defending their player pinching ways but there is a reason they don't bring many through - there aren't many to bring through.
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
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Post by jackthegas on Jun 4, 2020 16:29:05 GMT
I can relate to everything you say regarding umpires. There is a video here that you have probably seen. The clip at 31 seconds makes me smile every time I watch it. A few other things I can relate to as well unfortunately! I remember one incident in a beautiful setting in the Cotswolds at a ground next to a lovely old church. The other side of the boundary was a ditch. I was fielding at deep square leg and our opening bowler was fielding at long leg. The ball went in between us and I beat him to the ball, and as I was bending down to pick it up, the bowler, who obviously hadn't seen me kept running and I tripped over his outstretched leg, straight into the ditch  Plunkett is unlucky. I guess the other way of looking at it is that, it is probably better in the long run that Plunkett's last game was the world cup final, rather than a low key, behind closed doors affair. Surrey do have a massive catchment area but so do Middlesex and players like Higgins have had to leave to get regular cricket. I think Stewart deserves some credit, but perhaps you are right. Maybe he doesn't fancy the job. I remember him saying publicly that he didn't think he should have to apply and that if the ECB wanted him they would have to make an approach. Not sure I'd get too far if I took that approach when it comes to job hunting, but I guess life is different at the top! Interesting comment regarding cricket in Nottingham. What is lacking at grass routes level? I think to get that level of balance, perhaps you need a journalist which does not describe any of the new TMS pundits. The ABC employed Peter Roebuck for years in this role. The equivalent here is Vic Marks I guess but he is a bit to congenial to be outspoken on the radio. Mike Selvey used to do a good job of being forthright but he was also really dour! I think Agnew often does a good job of providing balance and is usually fair and without agenda, but he is compromised when it comes to the Hundred because he is employed by the BBC who obviously hold the rights. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jun 5, 2020 16:07:55 GMT
I can relate to everything you say regarding umpires. There is a video here that you have probably seen. The clip at 31 seconds makes me smile every time I watch it. A few other things I can relate to as well unfortunately! I remember one incident in a beautiful setting in the Cotswolds at a ground next to a lovely old church. The other side of the boundary was a ditch. I was fielding at deep square leg and our opening bowler was fielding at long leg. The ball went in between us and I beat him to the ball, and as I was bending down to pick it up, the bowler, who obviously hadn't seen me kept running and I tripped over his outstretched leg, straight into the ditch Plunkett is unlucky. I guess the other way of looking at it is that, it is probably better in the long run that Plunkett's last game was the world cup final, rather than a low key, behind closed doors affair. Surrey do have a massive catchment area but so do Middlesex and players like Higgins have had to leave to get regular cricket. I think Stewart deserves some credit, but perhaps you are right. Maybe he doesn't fancy the job. I remember him saying publicly that he didn't think he should have to apply and that if the ECB wanted him they would have to make an approach. Not sure I'd get too far if I took that approach when it comes to job hunting, but I guess life is different at the top! Interesting comment regarding cricket in Nottingham. What is lacking at grass routes level? I think to get that level of balance, perhaps you need a journalist which does not describe any of the new TMS pundits. The ABC employed Peter Roebuck for years in this role. The equivalent here is Vic Marks I guess but he is a bit to congenial to be outspoken on the radio. Mike Selvey used to do a good job of being forthright but he was also really dour! I think Agnew often does a good job of providing balance and is usually fair and without agenda, but he is compromised when it comes to the Hundred because he is employed by the BBC who obviously hold the rights. It was ever thus I think. I love that club cricket complication video. The one with the bull on the pitch actually happened at one of the grounds I play at in Manchester. I've played at a few grounds in the Westcountry where there was a slope so prodigious that when you were fielding at the bottom of it then you couldn't see the square. Here is a good Aussie video that sums up club cricket umpiring pretty well.
I think over the years Middlesex have probably done a better job of bringing on local talent than Surrey have but they don't have anything like the amount of resources Surrey do. They're just nowhere near as loaded as Yorkshire/Surrey/Notts/Warwcks/Lancs. I think in modern county cricket those are the big 5. Nottinghamshire is a strange place. There's just not that much cricket played in the county compared with other places and it's of a noticeably lower quality than that played in Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Yorks. I really don't the reasons for that. Nottingham itself has fewer teams than other similarly sized cities and the facilities in that part of the World were quite average. Notts are a pretty well supported county and the City definitely gets behind its team. But it's grassroots is just not very impressive. Historically there was a strong link to the mining communities with cricket played at the welfare clubs. That's where the likes of Larwood came from so maybe the decline of those areas has something to do with it. But you'd still think Nottingham would shape up better in this regard than it does.
My guess with Stewart is that he probably wanted them to pay him relative to what he would lose from giving up his other interests and the ECB wasn't interested in that. As I understand it they have several more very promising talents in the production line though so the rest of us might have to brace ourselves for yet another period of Surrey dominance. Shame -I quite enjouyed their decade of relative mediocrity.
I feel like TMS has the balance of the commentary right on the whole. I like the new people they've introduced in recent years. They've kept it fresh. The pundity side needs a bit of work. You don't need both Tuffnell and Graeme Swann as they basically have the same act. Personally I prefer Tuffnell but I think I'm unusual in that - when he talks about cricket I think he is really good. Likewise you won't need Vaughan and Cook who will likely both be ECB friendly. Looks like they are pensioning of Boycott - that seems like a good idea. They've dodged the bullet of him saying something appalling for years and it won't go on forever.. I like Vic Marks but there must surely be additional cricketing journalists out there that fit the bill of being independent surely? Agnew is a superb broadcaster but does have a few hang-ups that get a bit repetitive. He's generally a Hundred sceptic - it will be interesting to see if he has to rain that in.
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Jul 1, 2020 13:15:28 GMT
I can relate to everything you say regarding umpires. There is a video here that you have probably seen. The clip at 31 seconds makes me smile every time I watch it. A few other things I can relate to as well unfortunately! I remember one incident in a beautiful setting in the Cotswolds at a ground next to a lovely old church. The other side of the boundary was a ditch. I was fielding at deep square leg and our opening bowler was fielding at long leg. The ball went in between us and I beat him to the ball, and as I was bending down to pick it up, the bowler, who obviously hadn't seen me kept running and I tripped over his outstretched leg, straight into the ditch Plunkett is unlucky. I guess the other way of looking at it is that, it is probably better in the long run that Plunkett's last game was the world cup final, rather than a low key, behind closed doors affair. Surrey do have a massive catchment area but so do Middlesex and players like Higgins have had to leave to get regular cricket. I think Stewart deserves some credit, but perhaps you are right. Maybe he doesn't fancy the job. I remember him saying publicly that he didn't think he should have to apply and that if the ECB wanted him they would have to make an approach. Not sure I'd get too far if I took that approach when it comes to job hunting, but I guess life is different at the top! Interesting comment regarding cricket in Nottingham. What is lacking at grass routes level? I think to get that level of balance, perhaps you need a journalist which does not describe any of the new TMS pundits. The ABC employed Peter Roebuck for years in this role. The equivalent here is Vic Marks I guess but he is a bit to congenial to be outspoken on the radio. Mike Selvey used to do a good job of being forthright but he was also really dour! I think Agnew often does a good job of providing balance and is usually fair and without agenda, but he is compromised when it comes to the Hundred because he is employed by the BBC who obviously hold the rights. It was ever thus I think. I love that club cricket complication video. The one with the bull on the pitch actually happened at one of the grounds I play at in Manchester. I've played at a few grounds in the Westcountry where there was a slope so prodigious that when you were fielding at the bottom of it then you couldn't see the square. Here is a good Aussie video that sums up club cricket umpiring pretty well.
I think over the years Middlesex have probably done a better job of bringing on local talent than Surrey have but they don't have anything like the amount of resources Surrey do. They're just nowhere near as loaded as Yorkshire/Surrey/Notts/Warwcks/Lancs. I think in modern county cricket those are the big 5. Nottinghamshire is a strange place. There's just not that much cricket played in the county compared with other places and it's of a noticeably lower quality than that played in Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Yorks. I really don't the reasons for that. Nottingham itself has fewer teams than other similarly sized cities and the facilities in that part of the World were quite average. Notts are a pretty well supported county and the City definitely gets behind its team. But it's grassroots is just not very impressive. Historically there was a strong link to the mining communities with cricket played at the welfare clubs. That's where the likes of Larwood came from so maybe the decline of those areas has something to do with it. But you'd still think Nottingham would shape up better in this regard than it does.
My guess with Stewart is that he probably wanted them to pay him relative to what he would lose from giving up his other interests and the ECB wasn't interested in that. As I understand it they have several more very promising talents in the production line though so the rest of us might have to brace ourselves for yet another period of Surrey dominance. Shame -I quite enjouyed their decade of relative mediocrity.
I feel like TMS has the balance of the commentary right on the whole. I like the new people they've introduced in recent years. They've kept it fresh. The pundity side needs a bit of work. You don't need both Tuffnell and Graeme Swann as they basically have the same act. Personally I prefer Tuffnell but I think I'm unusual in that - when he talks about cricket I think he is really good. Likewise you won't need Vaughan and Cook who will likely both be ECB friendly. Looks like they are pensioning of Boycott - that seems like a good idea. They've dodged the bullet of him saying something appalling for years and it won't go on forever.. I like Vic Marks but there must surely be additional cricketing journalists out there that fit the bill of being independent surely? Agnew is a superb broadcaster but does have a few hang-ups that get a bit repetitive. He's generally a Hundred sceptic - it will be interesting to see if he has to rain that in.
Not just you. I much prefer Tuffnell to Swann. Good to see James Bracey going well at the top of the order in the inter-squad match. 48* although he was dropped early on by Stokes at second slip. I don't think he looks out of place though. He will have some decisions to make over the next year or two I would think. Does he want to continue to open the batting and cede the gloves to Roderick, or does he want to develop his keeping? His best way into the England squad in the short term is clearly by making runs in the top 3 but he is a generation younger than Foakes, Buttler and Bairstow. I am not sure that there are plans to keep the ODI squad separate from the Test squad any more which will make selection for the first test interesting. It's clear that Buttler will keep but there are a number of other questions. Root is sitting the test match out so who comes in for him. I think I would bat Crawley at 3 and maybe have a look at Lawrence at 4. Denley hasn't really let England down, but age is not on his side, and it is such a low key summer that I think I would choose to move on. Broad and Anderson are nailed on for the first test, so we need to pick a spinner and a quick bowler. I think I would go with Archer and Moeen. Leach is the better bowler, but he has had a really torrid winter health wise and I would be worried about throwing him back into the side before he's ready. I also don't fancy a tail of Archer, Leach, Broad & Anderson! Leach has bowled before Moeen though which probably indicates the selectors thinking at this point. Wood would also be unlucky to miss out but I would be inclined to alternate Archer and Wood this summer. I think Woakes and Anderson could play alternate tests too. |
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Jul 1, 2020 15:35:58 GMT
Bracey C Foakes B Overton(J) 85. Strangled down the leg side. He looked gutted! Can't see him featuring this summer, but he's certainly put himself in the one to keep an eye on category.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jul 3, 2020 0:53:09 GMT
I can't really argue with any of that. I think I'd do the same as you outlined for the same reasons. The Glos bias in me thinks Bracey is a better bet than Dan Lawrence but the pecking order is understandable. I suppose England have a decision to make with Denly. How far do they think this late flowering will last? I can definitely see the value he brings. There's a stability and he'll give you overs as well. I can imagine that they have in mind to take him to India next winter as a 3rd spinner option. That makes sense. But do they see him as someone to go to the Ashes a year later? I'd be less confident about that.
Despite the weird nature of this summer it does strike me as make or break for a few players in the older age bracket. Broad is definitely one, Butler should be considered another but so is Moeen. He needs to make a success of his return or will surely be confined to the white ball game permanently. I see no reason why he won't have a strong comeback though. He was doing the business very well up to a year ago particularly in England and he has owned Windies and Pakistan in the past. I'm fairly confident he will have a strong 2nd act to his Test career but it is a big moment for him.
Bracey is an interesting case. I'd not really thought of him as either a)a potential England Wicket Keeper or b)a potential England opener. I'd be tempted to say that if he's comfortable opening then that might be the more likely route in the short-mid term. He's had a fairly meteoric rise in the last 2 years and time is on his side. Glos might be thankful that there's not a full county season this year because I'm sure if they were to go back down he would look to leave although I was actually quietly optimistic that we might do OK. I'm sort of thinking that if there is some sort of mini-championship played then it would be bloody typical of either Glos or Somerset to finally win it in a year when no one really thinks it properly counts!
England look relatively set for next Wednesday. It's the Windies who look like the more intriguing team with some wildcard options. I'm really hopeful the seam attack lives up to the hype and the batting holds up enough to make this a proper series. Maybe I've been watching too much of the classic Windies v England contests that they've been showing. But I like Jason Holder and the side seems to have some underdog fight about it. We know how brittle England can be so I'm hoping for a proper contest especially since I'm off work till August and this is kind of my holiday this year!
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Jul 3, 2020 9:36:58 GMT
Well I think Bess has probably put himself in pole position for the spinners spot come the first test. Leach looked rusty and Moeen hardly bowled in the first innings, so I think it's clear that he is not going to play in the first test. He'll get back in the test side in India though. I would have thought that Mo, Leach and Bess will all play if the pitches take spin. You could even make a case for going back to 6 bowlers if the pitches are flat. I can see the value of Denley in England where seeing off the new ball by consistently scoring 30 off 100 balls is valuable but, there are times in the subcontinent where it's easiest to score against the new ball and so his role is diminished. I really don't think his bowling is good enough with a red ball to be a factor either. In those conditions, surely Root or Pope at 3 with Moeen at 6 or 7 would be a better option? Couple of interesting Gloucestershire related developments I've noticed this week. The first is that Roderick is off to Worcester for the start of the 2021 season. Worcester really need some stability at the top of the order, so my guess is that they have signed Roderick to bat in the top 3 and deputise for Ben Cox if needed. I hope so anyway. Cox barely scored a FC run last season but his keeping is probably the best on the circuit at the moment. I'd hate to see his opportunities limited to white ball cricket. Equally, Gloucestershire must be confident that they can keep hold of Bracey for the foreseeable future. The second thing I've noticed is that Gloucestershire have installed additional cameras around Nevil Road. They will be controlled remotely and will allow viewers to actually see things like catches, and where the ball is once it's hit off the square! Their coverage will be synced with BBC Commentary and will be available free of charge by the sound of it. That could be a terrific innovation and has the potential to be a complete game changer for county cricket. It will be really interesting to see how it works. I can see clubs charging non members for this in the future but I hope that if it does go behind a paywall there is an option to purchase a subscription centrally. One of the bits that is really tantalising about this is that you could ground hop to follow an exciting passage of play. Being able to pay a subscription annually that would allow me to chose which match I watch hour by hour would appeal more to me than paying a fee to a county to allow me to follow a days play. On the other hand, perhaps the ECB could be a bit more long sighted on this. Whilst I think plenty of die-hards would pay for coverage, if it was subsidised by the ECB and kept available online for free (like the BBC Commentary) then perhaps it has the potential to grow the game. It could also open the door for a weekly highlights show on the BBC. www.thecricketer.com/Topics/news/gloucestershire_install_additional_cameras_county_coverage_cricket_returns_covid.html |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jul 3, 2020 11:41:33 GMT
Well I think Bess has probably put himself in pole position for the spinners spot come the first test. Leach looked rusty and Moeen hardly bowled in the first innings, so I think it's clear that he is not going to play in the first test. He'll get back in the test side in India though. I would have thought that Mo, Leach and Bess will all play if the pitches take spin. You could even make a case for going back to 6 bowlers if the pitches are flat. I can see the value of Denley in England where seeing off the new ball by consistently scoring 30 off 100 balls is valuable but, there are times in the subcontinent where it's easiest to score against the new ball and so his role is diminished. I really don't think his bowling is good enough with a red ball to be a factor either. In those conditions, surely Root or Pope at 3 with Moeen at 6 or 7 would be a better option? Couple of interesting Gloucestershire related developments I've noticed this week. The first is that Roderick is off to Worcester for the start of the 2021 season. Worcester really need some stability at the top of the order, so my guess is that they have signed Roderick to bat in the top 3 and deputise for Ben Cox if needed. I hope so anyway. Cox barely scored a FC run last season but his keeping is probably the best on the circuit at the moment. I'd hate to see his opportunities limited to white ball cricket. Equally, Gloucestershire must be confident that they can keep hold of Bracey for the foreseeable future. The second thing I've noticed is that Gloucestershire have installed additional cameras around Nevil Road. They will be controlled remotely and will allow viewers to actually see things like catches, and where the ball is once it's hit off the square! Their coverage will be synced with BBC Commentary and will be available free of charge by the sound of it. That could be a terrific innovation and has the potential to be a complete game changer for county cricket. It will be really interesting to see how it works. I can see clubs charging non members for this in the future but I hope that if it does go behind a paywall there is an option to purchase a subscription centrally. One of the bits that is really tantalising about this is that you could ground hop to follow an exciting passage of play. Being able to pay a subscription annually that would allow me to chose which match I watch hour by hour would appeal more to me than paying a fee to a county to allow me to follow a days play. On the other hand, perhaps the ECB could be a bit more long sighted on this. Whilst I think plenty of die-hards would pay for coverage, if it was subsidised by the ECB and kept available online for free (like the BBC Commentary) then perhaps it has the potential to grow the game. It could also open the door for a weekly highlights show on the BBC. www.thecricketer.com/Topics/news/gloucestershire_install_additional_cameras_county_coverage_cricket_returns_covid.htmlI missed both of those Glos stories. The one about the streaming and the cameras is particularly interesting. Agreed that there is a potential game changer there. Personally I don't mind paying provided that it's a reasonable service and not a rip off. A central one off fee would be good I agree. Look at how US Sports package up their rights. It's a much better and fairer way of doing it and you get a much better deal as the consumer. We're beginning to go that way in this country but it's been very slow going. I'm pretty sure we get more ripped off than anyone else on this if you compare to how other countries do these things.
Roderick feels like a good pick up for Worcester. I'm a bit surprised Glos didn't fight harder to hold onto him. Worcester definitely needed to solidify that batting lineup. It really suffered last year with the loss of Joe Clarke. Bracey being a Bristolian must hopefully make it easier for Glos to hold onto him. But if he's ambitious he won't want to be playing Div 2 cricket and while I think Glos are a better side than many will claim they are clearly not a secure Div 1 side. Somerset could well come sniffing for Bracey I think.
That's an interesting summary of our spinner depth chart. My view is that Denly as 3rd spinner option would be OK in India. Just used as an Overs eater - not any kind of wicket taking threat. I can see the value in that. He's also a reasonable play of spin which would appeal.Interesting if Bess emerges from the pack in this series. I suppose pitches have to come into a bit as well. England might be temped to pick Moeen at Old Trafford even if he's down the current pecking order.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 4, 2020 13:26:00 GMT
Coming into this thread a little later I won’t do any quoting just pick up on what you’ve said.
I’ve learnt a lot reading the bits on umpires and umpiring. You’ve both probably played at a higher level than me in the leagues and I’ve probably got at least 20 years, if not more, on you both so my experience goes back to the 70s and 80s. Apart from a season in a Somerset age level squad and a winters coaching under Tom Cartwright in the County Ground my cricket was mainly in the south and west Somerset areas around village cricket. I just preferred playing with my friends than some of the players, usually from public schools in the age level squads. I played in the Taunton area in the Somerset League for a season where we did have appointed umpires but my experience of umpiring in the village scene was that each team provide an umpire and if you didn’t have one then a couple of players would take turns for a few overs at a time. What I do remember is that it was all very friendly, you avoided controversial decisions and I guess the batsman got the benefit of the doubt when it was 50/50. My season in the Somerset League was very different with organised umpires and decisions contested far more.
It will be good to have some cricket from Wednesday and I’m looking forward to some firm decisions about fixtures in the domestic game. One of the things to come out of this lockdown is the sense that this England team and the very large squad it’s been drawn from has become a County in its own way. Although being part of the Lions Bracey and Lawrence being in the squad have assumed higher levels of opportunity than might have been the case. I have to agree with your comments about Plunkett being very unlucky t9 be omitted completely but the way that Morgan and the coaches decided upon a four year policy after the previous World Cup failures has meant maintaining and looking at players who will be around in 2023. Plunkett definitely won’t be so he has gone. Mind you not a bad last game to have.
In the practice game last week I was surprised to see that Bess’s economy was better than Jack Leach, that rarely happens but I’m pleased for Bess. He looks to be a player that seems to rise to the occasion and doesn’t let England down. And after a good series in S Africa he is the man in possession so he deserves it, I think. He also has the chance to show he could be a serious all rounder despite Jack Leach’s heroics with the bat last Summer he isn’t. But Leach is the better bowler although one who may find pushing his way into the team less likely than a more extrovert Bess. Not overly important but my experience over the years is that certain characters find it harder to find a him ein the competitive world of test cricket. For certain positions in the team spin bowlers, wicketkeeper, batsmen good performances should guarantee players some continuity. With so little cricket to be played players not in the team will find it hard to dislodge players in form. It’s only in the fast bowling department that I would expect some kind of rota system to keep them fit and not over-bowled. So I expect the fast bowlers to all get a chance and I would expect Archer, Broad and Anderson to have the Southampton places for the first test. After that I hope they rotate.
Anyway good to be back talking about cricket. In a way Football meh!! But cricket in the summer I have missed. And I also feel that cricket has allowed itself to be bullied off the back pages by football which is unusual in a non - Workd Cup year.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 8, 2020 12:54:36 GMT
Well, that about sums it up. We’ve been waiting since April for cricket and on the first scheduled day it rains! It is dull down here and there’s rain in the air but fingers crossed for 2.00.
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Jul 9, 2020 9:45:22 GMT
Well that was frustrating wasn't it. Let's hope the weather is kinder today.
Couple of taking points. Batting first was brave given the forecast for the first couple of days. Probably a good toss to lose and I am sure England will be pleased that play was significantly curtailed yesterday.
I understand why they have picked Denley. He does chew up a lot of deliveries and given how tough batting has been recently, an average of 30 is not a disaster. Tough to bring in Lawrence for one test as well. I don't always agree with Ed Smith but he is a good orator, and it's hard to disagree with his logic.
No broad was a surprise to me though. I am a bit conflicted. Broad has an incredible record and is unlucky to miss out. I don't agree with those who say you don't need pace to win in England. This is true, but, England have won consistently in this country. We have to do something different to win in all conditions. This attack looks like one that could be good in Australia.
What does worry me is who will do the donkey work. That attack in 05 had real pace but Hoggard could bowl long spells and Giles was good at holding up an end. 5 years ago, Jimmy could have bowled long spells, but I don't think his body will hold up to that. I think you don't want that pace attack bowling much more than 60 overs a day, which means Bess will have a lot of bowling to do. Longer term, I wonder whether they've got an eye on Craig Overton for that role?
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jul 9, 2020 16:23:31 GMT
Well I think the 'brave' decision to bat first has now been somewhat exposed! It did seem bizarre to me when the forecast for the 1st two days was so poor. Apart from anything else, why wouldn't you want to have a crack at that dicey Windies top order? I think we gave a golden chance for their bowlers to get them into the game and they took it very well. Holder is a seriously impressive cricketer. It was fun to watch both him and Gabriel bowl a really nagging length. That's what did for England more than anything else I think. There was some early season foot movement going on, particularly from Denly and Burns at the top, but generally there were some absolute jaffas in there. Windies now putting England under a bit of pressure on the other side with some cagey but busy batting. I think Stokes has a bit of a problem here. We're going to need a big spell from someone to get back into this game. Windies generally look a bit more focused and match ready than we do. Not sure there's much excuse for that really.
Denly is probably in the last chance saloon in the 2nd innings I think, Sky did a good piece on his technical deficiencies and failure to adapt - that's not normally a good sign!It was also a bit worrying that the 3 youngsters all struggled a bit. The batting does look light on experience without Root in there and Roach, Gabrel and Holder are proper wiley pros these days. Every chance Windies fragile batting will fold at some point but we're right up against it at the moment.
Good that counties are going with red and white ball. Hopefully the rumours about spectators being allowed back as a trial in September are true. Maybe too much to hope that these will be Championship games but you never know. At least we will get something and I actually think the plan is quite sensible. Should get Glos v Somerset as well which will be nice. Not sure I'll be able to go to anything anyway as I assume Old Trafford will be out of commission for Lancs given the number of international games they are playing there. But if opportunities present I'm happy to travel to other Lancs grounds or Headingly or Durham etc. Cricket starvation will make you do odd things!
Speaking of which we finally received the green light for recreational cricket this week. In typically decisive fashion the government ruled out its return last Friday morning before then announcing that it we could get going again on Friday afternoon! Up here we are going to be playing a 10 week season from 25th July going till the end of the September. Games are being played in regional groups of 6. 40 Over cricket with not too many rule alterations. You have to stop every 6 Overs to sanitise the ball and batsmen must wipe down their bats. Batsmen have to run a yard wide on opposite sides of the wicket and lots of other little rules. But it is basically cricket which is good news. Plus we've been able to open our bar now so that will keep me going for a bit.....
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Jul 9, 2020 18:02:51 GMT
Jason Holder is a magnificent cricketer and a good leader too. One of my favourites. He is so relentless and he seems to be able to bowl long spells, which makes him difficult to just see off. It is astonishing though, how inept our batsmen are at playing English type bowlers.
Not sure the decision to leave out Broad looks too clever either. Difficult to find the balance between future planning and winning in the here and now though.
Good to have some cricket back though and it could be a decent series. I also think the freshen up sky have had has been good. Rob Key is an especially adept broadcaster. Still plenty of commentators on their roster who are happy to let the pictures speak for themselves from time to time which is becoming increasingly rare.
I hear Gloucestershire are one of the four counties who have serious reservations about covering the cost of playing 4 day cricket. I even read that there is a possibility that some counties might choose to try a bit less hard than they could do to meet the safety protocols so they could pull out without losing face and jeopardising their longer term participation. If they can't make the numbers stack up then I'm not sure you can blame them. Certainly the attitude from bigger clubs which is basically play or else you're uninvited next season is unhelpful. Pretty typical of professional sport though. The big boys are happy to look after themselves but of course, failure to look after smaller sides effects competition in the long run.
Do you have a sense yet Irish whether you've lost any players to things like golf? I am contemplating offering my services to my local club and coming out of retirement at the grand old age of 33!
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jul 9, 2020 18:41:00 GMT
Jason Holder is a magnificent cricketer and a good leader too. One of my favourites. He is so relentless and he seems to be able to bowl long spells, which makes him difficult to just see off. It is astonishing though, how inept our batsmen are at playing English type bowlers. Not sure the decision to leave out Broad looks too clever either. Difficult to find the balance between future planning and winning in the here and now though. Good to have some cricket back though and it could be a decent series. I also think the freshen up sky have had has been good. Rob Key is an especially adept broadcaster. Still plenty of commentators on their roster who are happy to let the pictures speak for themselves from time to time which is becoming increasingly rare. I hear Gloucestershire are one of the four counties who have serious reservations about covering the cost of playing 4 day cricket. I even read that there is a possibility that some counties might choose to try a bit less hard than they could do to meet the safety protocols so they could pull out without losing face and jeopardising their longer term participation. If they can't make the numbers stack up then I'm not sure you can blame them. Certainly the attitude from bigger clubs which is basically play or else you're uninvited next season is unhelpful. Pretty typical of professional sport though. The big boys are happy to look after themselves but of course, failure to look after smaller sides effects competition in the long run. Do you have a sense yet Irish whether you've lost any players to things like golf? I am contemplating offering my services to my local club and coming out of retirement at the grand old age of 33! England need a good session tomorrow morning of this game could get away from them quite fast. Hopefully a night to regroup will do them good. I thought they looked shellshocked coming off the field. Windies now have to deal with the pressure of being favourites but they've been pretty relentless so far. Apart from the dropped catch off Stokes they've been very sharp. England haven't been. We've looked a lot more rusty with bat and ball. Certainly Windies performance today makes you hopeful this will be a good series but England definitely deserve some criticism here. They look undercooked to me.
I don't understand why the sudden consensus came from that Archer and Wood were going to play together in this game. Given the demands on them this summer it surely would make more sense to split the workload and also go with a diverse attack, especially as the Rose Bowl tends to be slow anyway. To me there was a strong case for picking Woakes or Broad simply based on the conditions. Joseph's relative struggles made me doubt whether Wood and Archer would be that effective. They may yet be but found it odd, and a bit gung ho, that this suddenly became the conventional wisdom. I think both Wood and Archer could have massive impact for England but the great value is surely that we can rotate them and not burn them out. For me that's 2 big decisions (toss and bowling selection) that Stokes has whiffed badly on debut.
Hardly surprising that Glos would be in the group that would be concerned about financial impact of playing. Take away the Cheltenham festival and they struggle to get the attendance figures. Short term thinking from the big counties really. With the Hundred looming the future of county cricket itself looks dicey so they'd be better off showing solidarity and presenting a strong front. If counties start folding it will justify some of the more penny pinching instincts of the ECB.
I'm not convinced about the golf argument really. I know Michael Vaughan has been very vocal on that. I suspect that he is probably just of an age where his mates who play club cricket have started peeling off to play golf anyway! Not an issue at my club but we have a majority South Asian playing membership anyway so cricket is always the priority there. We're also quite a young club (I'm 4th oldest Senior player at 36!). I suspect cricket club lose a fair few senior players every year to golf anyway and this might have accelerated that process in some place. But I don't get the impression it's a systematic issue. If anything we've gained local players who were desperate do a bit of netting but normally play for clubs further afield. Definitely get down to your local club though - perfect timing! I've played at some very nice grounds in Worcestershire - when I played for Blagdon we went on tour there every year. Birlingham is particularly nice.
Wareham - I thought that was a really interesting point you made about the England team almost being like a County squad this summer and how that might effect selection decisions and performance criteria. It's certainly may open things up for some of the fringe players. Even more so after today I'd have thought.
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