irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Aug 19, 2018 23:17:26 GMT
So I spent today at Trent Bridge - first time I have been for a few years but it remains by far my favourite Test Ground. It has been developed properly as a cricket ground and therefore retains intimacy and quirks that other grounds have been desperate to jettison in order to cram in an extra few bums on seats. It also tends to provide extremely compelling cricket as it did today for all the wrong reasons if you have sympathies towards England.
It was all very odd and maybe typical of modern Test Cricket where everything seems on permanent fast forward. So when I arrived at the ground to discover that play was put back half an hour it seemed as though the order of business would be something like 1)Will India get up to 400 and put some genuine pressure on England or will they get blown away giving us the edge 2)How many will England have by the close? Instead, what I witnessed was bizarre really. England duly blew a very poor Indian tail away. Firstly, their strategy of boring the youngster Pant out worked. They just bowled 2 feet outside the off-stump to him for 4 Overs eventually he cracked, had a go at a wide one and played on. India then crumbled. This left us a tricky 40 minutes session. Cook and Jennings looked like the out of form openers they are for the first 4/5 Overs - they were very jumpy and going for things they should have been leaving. But after that they calmed down and we were as good as 50 for 0 at lunch. It looked certain that an afternoon of steady accumulation was in store.
Instead what occurred was deeply pecuilar. Suddenly the innocuous Indian attack of the morning session became incredibly threatening. With remarkable consistency every batsman seemed to scramble their way unconvincingly to 10-15 runs and then get out prodding forward stuck on the crease with no foot movement. They just never looked 'in'. It's hard to understand how an up and down dobber like Pandya could cause so much damage but there's no doubt that England's batting was technically shocking. A lot has been made of India's failure to deal with English bowling conditions - well today showed that England aren't much better at dealing with those conditions! The phrase is 'positive defence' and it was completely lacking. It was just poking and prodding away from the body. Total lack of decisive forward movement towards the ball. It was genuniely embarassing and they should be doing some serious soul searching.
Of course then India came out with a 170 run lead and no scoreboard pressure at all and were able to get over their inhibitions in English conditions. Perfect situation to get over the psychlogical hump - we were pretty pummelled in the final session and I think Kohli et al. will pile them on tomorrow although it's largely irrelevant because they're already guaranteed a 350+ lead which will be more than enough, especially as the pitch will break up for Ashwin. I'm going back tomorrow and what annoys me is that I will probably be watching quite a lot of dead cricket now as India have the luxury of just eating up the time and have an interest in grinding down our bowling lineup for the next test.
Series is very much still live and, it is clear that for all the crowing about India's batting failings we seemed to have forgotten that England's current lineup is itself absurdly brittle in anything other than very favourable conditions and game situations. No evidence they can deal with pressure really and today showed that again.
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Captain Jayho
Andy Tillson
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Post by Captain Jayho on Aug 20, 2018 10:43:22 GMT
Good report IR, sorry you didn't pick a better day though! Got to agree with your last sentence, the hype after the second test was way over the top. You don't start giving it out until the series is in the bag.
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
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Post by jackthegas on Aug 20, 2018 16:15:41 GMT
Thanks for the write-up Irish. Trent Bridge is my least favourite ground. It’s a pain to get to from the my house and the only time I’ve been was that horrendous bore draw against India a few years ago. I watched India’s lower order bat most of the day very slowly. It has undoubtedly coloured my view!
England are a shambles. I’ve said before that I find their wins difficult to fully enjoy because as a side they are just not progressing. When they win it is almost always because their swing bowlers have outperformed their counterparts in helpful conditions and then we’ve managed to scramble together enough runs thanks to our lower – middle order to build an unassailable lead.
If the opposition manage to post a score of around 300 in the first innings we buckle. If we bat first, we buckle more often than not. If it’s not swinging we can’t bowl sides out. Even when we create chances, we can’t catch. We’re as bad now as we were in the 90s. The only differences are that cricket has drifted further from the public consciousness and that Australia aren’t very good anymore and so we manage to beat them at home.
There is no silver bullet here. England have some good players but they don’t have any balance in their side. I think they could pick a marginally better side, but I do not see a Strauss or a Trott or a Collingwood waiting in the wings. The ECB have chased money to the detriment of the performance of the test team. They’ve put almost all cricket behind a paywall and the only highlights available are on a channel that no one watches. The first class game has been pushed to the margins meaning we don’t produce bowlers who can be affective outside of England. Even Sky don’t cover First Class cricket, preferring to cover the CPL and IPL instead. The decision to incentivize young English players means that good county pros have drifted out of the game which has diluted the quality of County Cricket. Smaller counties can’t compete which means they are prioritizing List A squads. This has had a positive impact on England’s One Day team but I think it’s had the opposite impact on the Test Team. The integrity of the Championship has been eroded because of the decision to split the leagues in to 8 and 10 (again – to accommodate more T20 cricket). Relegating 25% of the top division promotes short termism from the big counties.
All of this needs to be addressed, but in the short term we need to pick some boring cricketers. I have agreed with a lot of Ed Smith’s picks but Pope was a stupid, high risk selection. The guy hasn’t batted above 6 for his county and is clearly a very dynamic cricketer. He is not what we need right now. Our openers are really struggling and we desperately need some solidity to the top of the order. I know averages aren’t everything but Rory Burns has consistently averaged 10 runs per innings more than the openers we have picked. He has the right kind of aptitude and he is a leader. Surely we’d be better picking him to bat at 3 and dropping Root back down to 4? I know Joe Clarke has been mentioned a lot and he is a good player but I have seen him a lot and I also think he is cut from the same cloth as the players we have at 3-7 in the side at the moment. If it’s swinging he swings too. The player at Worcester that I would consider is Daryl Mitchell. Another proven leader, a good catcher and a consistent run scorer over a number of years. He’d be a stop-gap but I think he’s capable of averaging 35+ at the top of the order, which would be considerably better than anyone else has managed. He’d definitely help the balance of the side. Even if the top 4 batted 50 overs and scored 100 runs that would be enough to set a platform for our biffers down the order. At the moment they are being exposed to the new ball too early when bowlers are fresh and the ball is swinging.
We need to consider an insurance policy at 5 too. This would mean a difficult decision but the best sides have a Thorpe, Collingwood, Waugh type cricketer coming in at 5 that can bat time if a side lose early wickets. Stokes has to play to balance the side and Bairstow has been one of our more reliable cricketers so that would probably mean Buttler missing out. I saw James Hildrith make a class hundred in tough conditions against Worcester last month and if we are looking for a stop-gap in the middle order, I would think that he would be a better bet at 5 that Ian Bell. Perhaps unfairly though he is also perceived to not necessarily be the man you want in a crisis although that isn’t an assessment I agree with.
Can I hijack this thread with a quick comment on the T20 too? Given that the sides that Irish, Wareham, and I watch regularly are all represented in the quarters. I have genuinely got split loyalties for the Worcester – Gloucester game which surprises me. I can’t work out which side I will find myself rooting for but I am looking forward to it. I think Glos have gone off the boil so Worcester will start as favourites but perhaps that will play into Gloucester’s hands? I like the look of the Somerset team, they have got most bases covered, but Notts have a really good side and seem to be hitting form at the right time.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Aug 21, 2018 11:59:49 GMT
To be honest I had a great time at the Test although yesterday was as predicted - pretty dull. There was a definite attempt by India to send a message that they can grind out runs and won't gift us easy wickets. From the point of view of the series this is great although both of these sides are wildly inconsistent and it could easily swing back the other way at Southampton. No doubt India currently have the momentum though. I saw Kohli hit a hundred so I can bank that one - although it was a very untypical innings with little fluency.
I agree with pretty everything Jack said about the current state of the England team. We are unbalanced and we are deeply flawed. The dreadful quality of the slip fielding is a particular bafflement and we are very lucky it didn't cost us the Edgbaston test. We clearly need some out fashioned grit in there somewhere although the options that you outline illustrate how relatiely empty the cupboard is.
Where I think you are perhaps slightly overstating it in comparing us with the 90s is that with Broad, Anderson and Root there is probably a floor effect for England's performances that we lacked back then - there was no limit to how low that England team could go because it just didn't have any quality to fall back on. However, there's no doubt the current England team are merrily bobbing a long that flaw and have shown no capacity to break out of the cycle of mediocrity they are currently in. I'm also probably a bit more positive about the bowling than you are. There is some depth (although it's hard to see who steps up when the big 2 retire) and variation in there and it feels like we're producing quite a lot of interesting young players who can contribute in different ways like Curran and Bess although it remains to be seen if any of those players can up their game to become regular match winners. What we're clearly not producing is batsmen and you are also correct that there is no obvious progression.
As for T20 - Glos desperately need something positive to happen around the club. A first finals day in a decade would be that. Worcestershire are the club they should aspire to be in my opinion - consistently produce good quality county players and have an excellent relationship with the recreational game in the area. Glos do neither of these things. Worcester should be favourites but Glos came agonisingly close to winning a Q-Final last year and their entire season rests on that game so motivation will not be a problem. I would like both Westcountry team to make it but I thought Notts looked ominously good in their 'playoff' against Yorkshire last week and I agree that they are hitting form at the right time. On paper they still look the best T20 team in the country. That should be a cracking game to be honest.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Aug 23, 2018 20:21:47 GMT
Glad you enjoyed the day irish. I was at the Somerset v Essex match so I didn’t see an over live just caught the highlights.i only missed the last hour on day three when I was travelling up for the Pompey match. Can’t disagree with either of your analyses. We got away with it in the first test this time we didn’t. I agree with so much of what’s been said so there’s no need to repeat it but some other observations...... Not only do we not have any balance in the test side we have little balance in how cricket is developing in this country. We do not have many batsmen who will bat throughout a session let alone bat for the day. I quite like the idea that Ed Smith has developed regarding selection in that we have people like Marcus Trescothick, James Taylor and others who watch or play county cricket out there looking at players. If the players are there they will select them. The big problem under the current schedule is that County players do not have the opportunity to impress the selectors. We have barely played any 4 day cricket since May, just one in June, one in July and we’ve just payed our first in August. There has to be a consequence of such mis-management of the schedule. One of the consequences is that we are developing some good one day and 20/20 players who can bat very well but they cannot bat for any length of time, with any concentration or patience. Watching Championship cricket you can see the bowlers build up the pressure and see bowlers keeping the score down and batsmen are happy to be quiet for a few overs but you can actually see the frustration building and you know that they will give their wicket away which they do. We seem to have lost the ability to develop players who can build an innings and score a century in difficult circumstances. Vince can as can Hildreth esp against spin. That’s why Hildreth would be a better bet to go to Sri Lanka in the winter but tbh I think his time has gone. He will have to accept that he will probably be the best player this century not to play for England. The best batsman I’ve seen this year is James Vince. Now he always scores well against Somerset so perhaps that isn’t the best gauge but I’m happy to see him back in the test team. I know he’s like marmite and several people I watch cricket with don’t think him an England player. I do, he has occupied the crease for some very long innings this year and most of his innings have been winning ones for Hampshire. Rory Burns I agree needs to be given the chance and really needed to play before Ollie Pope.
Ed Smith needs to be given time to develop his method of selection. At least the selectors are now watching Championship cricket, what there is of it. I’m a bit worried about the situation that occurred with Rashid and the spin option and the selection of Stokes over Curran. Rashid needed to play because in the end he is the best test spinner we have. The problem was with Rashid himself, he seems to be very selfish in refusing to help Yorkshire out when they needed a spinner. It gave completely the wrong message esp when it could have been avoided with some thought. The haste with which Stokes came back was wrong and Curran was sacrificed which again gave a completely wrong message. Stokes has to play because he is a world class player in all areas, batting, bowling and fielding but after the week he went through he needed to go away and spend some time with his wife and family before coming back for the 4th Test, not that his performance was responsible for England losing. Again the wrong message esp to Sam Curran.
Apart from the lack of batsmen who can build an innings or bat us to safety from a losing position the opening batsmen, or lack of them, are a real problem. Alistair Cook has earned the right to play but im not sure he will continue beyond this season. I’d like Jennings to secure a place but I’m not convinced he has the technique to do it. Rory Burns, Hameed and a guy called Trescothick at Somerset seem the best openers indivision 1. But Hameed can’t even get in the Lancs team who are near the foot of division 1, I hope he comes good again he seemed to have the ability to build an innings and be unconcerned at the run rate.
I hope that Worcestershire avoids relegation becaus elike Somerset they are producing home grown talent who have been given the chance to develop and grow. It’s good to have them in the top division. No short termism at either of those clubs which is good for cricket imo. Surrey have a lot of youngsters coming through so I think the depth of talent is growing it’s just the lack of batsmen who are defensively minded with a mindset to bat for a day and forget about the run rate.
As to the T20, Somerset do have most bases covered but I have been astonished at how poor Notts were in the group stage and fear they will do well on Sunday. They have th players and we lost both quarter finals last year to them. If we get through to finals day I think we will do well. Gloucestershire have lost a bit of form but with Klinger playing well they always have a chance but I think Worcestershire are just a better side at the moment though I’d love Gloucestershire to win. Sussex are running into form and with their bowlers teams will need to avoid chasing too many against them.
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
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Post by jackthegas on Aug 24, 2018 7:41:37 GMT
I think there is more to the Rashid situation than meets the eye. Something is clearly amiss at Yorkshire. They are losing or are rumored to be in the process of losing several senior players and frankly, their coach, Andrew Gale seems like a bit of a hot-head. I think relations between Rashid and Yorkshire have broken down and Ed Smith will have heard both sides versions of events before deciding to pick Rashid.
In terms of best openers in the Championship, Hammed is a real worry. He hasn't managed a score over 35 this season. I hope he comes good but he's struggling to hold down a place in Lancashire's best team at the moment. It will never happen but Daryl Mitchell has scored 800 runs at 46 in a struggling team. I am telling you, England could do a lot worse if they are looking for a Chris Rodgers type figure.
Vince is a good player and I think he could make it at the highest level but his selection doesn't do anything to help the balance of the team. To use a footballing parlance, it's like picking 5 attacking midfielders and wondering why you're getting overrun in the midfield.
I read an article by George Dobell on Cricinfo yesterday. He basically said that organized players like Nick Compton, Jaik Mickleburgh (who scores a lot of runs in minor counties cricket) and Andrew Umeed (who scored a very slow Championship hundred against a quality attack last season) don’t get a look in. They are seen as poor value for money because they are one dimensional and so can only play one form of cricket. Someone like Pope can obviously play in all three formats and so he represents better value for money, particularly for smaller counties. You can even see that at Gloucester where Tavare has arguably been shown less patience than some of Gloucester’s other younger players. I thought it was a prescient point. Even if it isn’t entirely true at the moment (Mickleburgh has a poor first class record over an extended period of time), you can see that it could be an argument County CEOs use when deciding who gets a contract in future.
I think you can apply the same logic to off-spinners. Would someone like Martin Ball come through the system at Gloucester now? I am not sure he would. Far more value for money to be had in investing in a Ryan Higgins style medium pace all-rounder or an erratic leg spinner that is likely to be an asset in limited overs cricket than an orthodox off-spinner whose strength is consistency. An off-spinner might only positively influence the two or three rounds that are held in July and August.
I wonder whether they might stumble across a solution over the next couple of tests anyway. If Bairstow can bat but not keep I would think they might push him up to 4 and Stokes to 5. I think Bairstow would average 45+ without the gloves and Stokes has been stoic in losing causes a couple of times in the past. I also think he is the England batsman that seems most able to work at his game. He was really poor against spin when he started but I think he has developed a method.
I watched the first quarter final last night. How good was Parkinson! I can’t imagine that Kent’s groundsman is very popular today though. If there is a side that you don’t want to play on a turning wicket it’s Lancashire.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Aug 24, 2018 11:22:54 GMT
You are right about there being more to the Rashid story than we know and the exits at Yorkshire show that all is not happy there. I wonder though if the current management there has just got fed up with providing th3 mainstays for England yet never see them put on a Yorkshire sweater. Even when they are not playing for England they rarely play for Yorkshire. Perhaps they are playing more hardball in an effort to get better value for money from them. Talking to their supporters at Taunton, they always bring a lot of very knowledgable fans, they are really jarred off seeing all their best players not do it for Yorkshire and I bet they let their committees know about their dissatisfaction. It might be a reaction to the England players not appearing to care for Yorkshire and some hide it better than others. Rashid in refusing to play the Roses match really didn’t hide his contempt did he?
I like your argument jack about the players counties go for and think you are right. Why would counties like Derbyshire, Northamptonshire, Leicestershire, Glamorgan even attempt to sign better red ball players because in Division 2 they will not do well enough to keep them, Nottinghamshire and Lancashire especially but most of the bigger counties in Division 1 treat those counties like their junior sides and wait to see if the players do well and then sign them up. Surrey, Nottinghamshire have all raided the smaller counties. So they will concentrate on one day cricket and hope they can make a success of that . Until this season Northamptonshire have been very successful in T20 and Kent until last night looked to be going strong this year. The one area I might question would be the players like Compton. I’m not sure there are many players like Compton now. Players coming in now are more attacking players who are looking to T20 as their main area. At Somerset we are bucking the trend insofar as youngsters like Byron, Barton, Bartlett, and even the captain Tom Abell are more 4 day players. But that is more about Somerset being a bit obsessed with their holy grail of th3 Championship. Our one day team is made up of many championship players and Corey Anderson and Jerome Taylor. I don’t think it’s a priority, more a pleasant by product of having some good home priduced players and being able to afford the two stars because we are profitable and well run.
As to James Vince I think his inclusion will balance the team. A genuine No.3 who will allow Root to go to 4 and although an attacking player he has accumulated lots of minutes in the middle this year. However what it won’t do is solve the openers problem and our No. 3 coming in to face the new ball. As to the problem in 4 day cricket of Gloucestershire it just comes over as a complete mess. It looks like they don’t compete for good youngsters against Somerset because the Somerset system is so far superior we don’t even take Gloucestershire’s best players like Surrey, Lancashire and Nottinghamshire do to their neighbouring counties. But they can compete in one day cricket. Get a few good players like Klinger and Higgens and Gloucestershire can compete. But it looks like they’ve given up in 4 day cricket, which is very sad.
Yes Lancashire were good bowling last night but what should have been a procession very nearly wasn’t so I’m not sure their batsmen are that good. I’m just glad we won’t have the prospect of playing Kent again, our bogey side! And if it is a spinning pitch we have that covered with Waller and de Merwe with Leach and Bess in reserve.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Aug 24, 2018 12:26:47 GMT
I thought the Kent-Lancs Quarter final highlighted the age old truth that English batsmen are just completely befuddled by spin! Parkinson Is the real dealt though - if he could bat I think he'd already be in the England frame. Very different type of leggy to what we normally produce in England. He's much more attacking in both flight and line and it leads to exciting cricket.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Aug 27, 2018 22:05:53 GMT
Shame that Gloucestershire didn’t make finals day but I’m obviously glad that Somerset did. Again a very good game today. It’s the only quarter final that lived up to expectations and we saw a really good game. Worcestershire, Lancs and Sussex won batting second fairly easily after their opponents didn’t score enough. I get the impression Gloucestershire, Kent and Durham all froze on the occasion.
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