irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Aug 21, 2017 13:57:39 GMT
If anyone can be bothered with this one.....
Personally I don't think we learnt anything very important from the Edgbaston Test. It just reconfirmed that a full strength England Test XI will completely wipe the floor with West Indies B side which is what this is. I'm confident we'd easily beat Windies anyway but I was watching some games in the Carribean T20 and I'm pretty sure I could construct 2 whole Windies XI's that would be better than this one - it's bloody sad. Like I said on the match report thread I put up on the Bury game, I was at Radcliffe CC on Saturday and they had a whole row of pictures of all the pros they've had over the years. Frank Worrell, Gary Sobers, Sonny Ramadhin, Malcolm Marshall, Eldine Baptiste. It was ridiculous - Sobers actually played there when he had just broken the Test record for highest innings. It would be like Pele winning the World Cup in 62 and then signing for Paulton Rovers. It should have been pleased to be somewhere like that but instead I was just sad - firstly about the current state of that club but mainly because I can't see Windies having players of that quality anymore.
The pink ball thing was alright but I don't think we found much out about how our players will react to it when the going gets a bit tough under lights down under. It was so one sided it didn't really matter what we did. Again, we found ourselves 40 odd for 2 with the new guys struggling. Westley looks fundamentally flawed technically to me. It's all very well saying 'I'm a legside' player but if your bat comes down constantly at an angle, world class bowlers will exploit that. I don't think I want him at 3 for the Ashes at this stage. Malan remains a fairly uninspiring choice I feel. Stoneman was just plain unlucky though - got an unplayable ball on a day when it looked like Windies could bowl till Christmas and not produce anything like that.
So it was all too easy really and I think it will probably get easier too at Headingley. |
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
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Post by jackthegas on Aug 21, 2017 16:07:26 GMT
I went to Edgbaston on Friday. It was pretty miserable all round. The weather was awful and there was just no suspense to the days play. It was obvious to everyone that, weather depending, we’d score 550 and they’d be 60/3 at best by the close.
The pink duke ball played pretty well I thought, although I found it harder to see from 3rd man than the red one. I couldn’t even see it when the spinners were on. There is definitely a case for replacing the white ball with it with immediate effect though as it holds its colour much better than the white one and would mean that you could use one ball per innings. There was even a hint of reverse swing under the lights on day one. I was pleasantly surprised in that regard. Of course, in Australia we’ll be using the Kookaburra which has a much smaller seem and swings less so I doubt it helped us acclimatize much.
The ICC need to do something to help the Windies I think. Either their board need to be allocated more money so players can actually make a decent living out of test cricket or they need to bring in two tier test cricket so they can learn by playing against teams like Ireland, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and Zimbabwe. Both might be needed and both would take time to have an impact.
I have seen a lot of Worcestershire this season and their bowling attack is better than the West Indies. I don’t think the batting is far behind either, in fact Clarke and Mitchell are better than anything the Windies had on display. I genuinely think they would be contenders for the wooden spoon if they were a first class county. It’s very sad.
We went into this summer with 4 issues and one has been resolved. Moeen has proven me wrong. He has bowled beautifully. Much more loop to his action, his pace and control is better and he is threatening both edges. The 3 batting positions though continue to worry. I think I’d give Ballance a run at 5 on the basis that we need someone with some grit to balance the stroke-makers we have.
I know others will disagree, but to me Root looks a natural number 3 and we have a better chance of finding a number 4. If he doesn’t want to move though I see no option other than to stick with Westley. He has a technical flaw for sure but there is no one else putting their hand up that bats in that position. We need to find the best coach we can and work with him between now and the first Ashes test.
I do think we’ve discarded players too quickly. Once it becomes apparent that there are no better options then why not stick with them and find a coach to improve technique and mentality? Moeen is a good example of this approach working. Someone like Compton may have flourished if he hadn’t been crippled by fear with our revolving door policy.
Personally, I prefer Rory Burns of the two Surrey openers but having picked Stoneman he is a shoe-in for the first test isn’t he? How can you drop someone after 3 innings – which is all he is likely to get this summer.
As a footnote, I did laugh a lot when Sibley moved to Warwickshire last month. Surrey had no right to complain after they signed two players last winter to block up 2 of the top 3 batting spots.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Aug 23, 2017 13:08:03 GMT
I went to Edgbaston on Friday. It was pretty miserable all round. The weather was awful and there was just no suspense to the days play. It was obvious to everyone that, weather depending, we’d score 550 and they’d be 60/3 at best by the close. The pink duke ball played pretty well I thought, although I found it harder to see from 3rd man than the red one. I couldn’t even see it when the spinners were on. There is definitely a case for replacing the white ball with it with immediate effect though as it holds its colour much better than the white one and would mean that you could use one ball per innings. There was even a hint of reverse swing under the lights on day one. I was pleasantly surprised in that regard. Of course, in Australia we’ll be using the Kookaburra which has a much smaller seem and swings less so I doubt it helped us acclimatize much. The ICC need to do something to help the Windies I think. Either their board need to be allocated more money so players can actually make a decent living out of test cricket or they need to bring in two tier test cricket so they can learn by playing against teams like Ireland, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and Zimbabwe. Both might be needed and both would take time to have an impact. I have seen a lot of Worcestershire this season and their bowling attack is better than the West Indies. I don’t think the batting is far behind either, in fact Clarke and Mitchell are better than anything the Windies had on display. I genuinely think they would be contenders for the wooden spoon if they were a first class county. It’s very sad. We went into this summer with 4 issues and one has been resolved. Moeen has proven me wrong. He has bowled beautifully. Much more loop to his action, his pace and control is better and he is threatening both edges. The 3 batting positions though continue to worry. I think I’d give Ballance a run at 5 on the basis that we need someone with some grit to balance the stroke-makers we have. I know others will disagree, but to me Root looks a natural number 3 and we have a better chance of finding a number 4. If he doesn’t want to move though I see no option other than to stick with Westley. He has a technical flaw for sure but there is no one else putting their hand up that bats in that position. We need to find the best coach we can and work with him between now and the first Ashes test. I do think we’ve discarded players too quickly. Once it becomes apparent that there are no better options then why not stick with them and find a coach to improve technique and mentality? Moeen is a good example of this approach working. Someone like Compton may have flourished if he hadn’t been crippled by fear with our revolving door policy. Personally, I prefer Rory Burns of the two Surrey openers but having picked Stoneman he is a shoe-in for the first test isn’t he? How can you drop someone after 3 innings – which is all he is likely to get this summer. As a footnote, I did laugh a lot when Sibley moved to Warwickshire last month. Surrey had no right to complain after they signed two players last winter to block up 2 of the top 3 batting spots. Thanks for that - nice to get a report from someone who was there. And it is that opening line that is critical right? Day-Night Test, City based T20. All of these held up as potential salvations for English cricket and yet all rather reliant on people being willing to sit out in the cold en masse! My own feeling is that there will be a quick buzz for this and the franchise thing coming in the next year - it will produce a boost in crowd number and self-interested organisers will no doubt proclaim it all a great success. However, there will then be a steady decline from an early peak and it will then end up attracting the same kind of crowds we currently get for lesser Test nations and T20 Blast games. I went to the first ever T20 and Bristol when they weren't even sure what they were doing with it. In a few years it was a roaring success and everyone was saying how it had saved county cricket. But, as time has gone on, and the novelty worn off and it has failed to really grab a noticeable slot in the national sporting calender all that has really occurred is that the crowds that used to go to 40/50 Over county one day games now go to T20 ones plus a few additional corporate hangers on. That's it - the end result is that instead of developing a new audience all I think they have really done is move an old audience around. I can see the same thing happening again. Maybe we need to stop the 'woe and alas' English cricket narratives that have been in existence ever since I've been following the game. English cricket seems unique in its constant insecurity and existential angst. There's actually never been more money in the game and it's never been better supported at matches. The classic line of 'look at the crowds from cricket highlights from the 80s' makes you realise that we've actually gone forward in that respect hugely. That's not to say there aren't issues but I often think people at the top of organisations exaggerate the current state of things in order to justify short term change. As for the series itself - hard to disagree with any of that. Windies are a poor side - I think you're right that they would struggle against most county teams. But we have to keep in mind that this is isn't close to their real best XI - that's what is tragic. I think the point about ICC is bang on - some kind of system of redistribution is going to have to come in or Test Cricket is just going to die. Windies, New Zealand, South Africa all struggle to keep their players playing internationally because they pay them very little - it's not even IPL teams stealing these players, English counties have been able to outmuscle those boards financially. I think we have gotten to the point with the holes in the batting order that we don't really know what we are doing anymore. I believe we are just throwing things at the board now and hoping they stick while waiting for Hameed to mature into the international class batsmen he should become. The good news is that it doesn't seem to hurt us all that often as we've traded off top end quality for lower order depth which against most seems to work pretty well. Australia in Australia is a different kettle of fish entirely though. |
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Aug 23, 2017 17:15:25 GMT
Thanks for that - nice to get a report from someone who was there. And it is that opening line that is critical right? Day-Night Test, City based T20. All of these held up as potential salvations for English cricket and yet all rather reliant on people being willing to sit out in the cold en masse! My own feeling is that there will be a quick buzz for this and the franchise thing coming in the next year - it will produce a boost in crowd number and self-interested organisers will no doubt proclaim it all a great success. However, there will then be a steady decline from an early peak and it will then end up attracting the same kind of crowds we currently get for lesser Test nations and T20 Blast games. I went to the first ever T20 and Bristol when they weren't even sure what they were doing with it. In a few years it was a roaring success and everyone was saying how it had saved county cricket. But, as time has gone on, and the novelty worn off and it has failed to really grab a noticeable slot in the national sporting calender all that has really occurred is that the crowds that used to go to 40/50 Over county one day games now go to T20 ones plus a few additional corporate hangers on. That's it - the end result is that instead of developing a new audience all I think they have really done is move an old audience around. I can see the same thing happening again. Maybe we need to stop the 'woe and alas' English cricket narratives that have been in existence ever since I've been following the game. English cricket seems unique in its constant insecurity and existential angst. There's actually never been more money in the game and it's never been better supported at matches. The classic line of 'look at the crowds from cricket highlights from the 80s' makes you realise that we've actually gone forward in that respect hugely. That's not to say there aren't issues but I often think people at the top of organisations exaggerate the current state of things in order to justify short term change. As for the series itself - hard to disagree with any of that. Windies are a poor side - I think you're right that they would struggle against most county teams. But we have to keep in mind that this is isn't close to their real best XI - that's what is tragic. I think the point about ICC is bang on - some kind of system of redistribution is going to have to come in or Test Cricket is just going to die. Windies, New Zealand, South Africa all struggle to keep their players playing internationally because they pay them very little - it's not even IPL teams stealing these players, English counties have been able to outmuscle those boards financially. I think we have gotten to the point with the holes in the batting order that we don't really know what we are doing anymore. I believe we are just throwing things at the board now and hoping they stick while waiting for Hameed to mature into the international class batsmen he should become. The good news is that it doesn't seem to hurt us all that often as we've traded off top end quality for lower order depth which against most seems to work pretty well. Australia in Australia is a different kettle of fish entirely though. I hate the idea of a T20 franchise but, based on Friday, one day cricket works better under lights than test cricket. It just felt much later than it actually was on Friday by the time the rain came. We got home at about 9.30 and it felt like the middle of the night! T20s start later and you have more excitement. Test cricket can be attritional and that is less likely to keep your average punter warm compared to shorter, more explosive formats. I suspect you're right about the initial excitement and subsequent decline to the mean though when it comes to the new tournament. The planned exposure on terestrial tv and massive marketing budget may even have lead to an even bigger increase in attendance for the Blast had they invested in the existing structure. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Aug 23, 2017 17:34:23 GMT
Thanks for that - nice to get a report from someone who was there. And it is that opening line that is critical right? Day-Night Test, City based T20. All of these held up as potential salvations for English cricket and yet all rather reliant on people being willing to sit out in the cold en masse! My own feeling is that there will be a quick buzz for this and the franchise thing coming in the next year - it will produce a boost in crowd number and self-interested organisers will no doubt proclaim it all a great success. However, there will then be a steady decline from an early peak and it will then end up attracting the same kind of crowds we currently get for lesser Test nations and T20 Blast games. I went to the first ever T20 and Bristol when they weren't even sure what they were doing with it. In a few years it was a roaring success and everyone was saying how it had saved county cricket. But, as time has gone on, and the novelty worn off and it has failed to really grab a noticeable slot in the national sporting calender all that has really occurred is that the crowds that used to go to 40/50 Over county one day games now go to T20 ones plus a few additional corporate hangers on. That's it - the end result is that instead of developing a new audience all I think they have really done is move an old audience around. I can see the same thing happening again. Maybe we need to stop the 'woe and alas' English cricket narratives that have been in existence ever since I've been following the game. English cricket seems unique in its constant insecurity and existential angst. There's actually never been more money in the game and it's never been better supported at matches. The classic line of 'look at the crowds from cricket highlights from the 80s' makes you realise that we've actually gone forward in that respect hugely. That's not to say there aren't issues but I often think people at the top of organisations exaggerate the current state of things in order to justify short term change. As for the series itself - hard to disagree with any of that. Windies are a poor side - I think you're right that they would struggle against most county teams. But we have to keep in mind that this is isn't close to their real best XI - that's what is tragic. I think the point about ICC is bang on - some kind of system of redistribution is going to have to come in or Test Cricket is just going to die. Windies, New Zealand, South Africa all struggle to keep their players playing internationally because they pay them very little - it's not even IPL teams stealing these players, English counties have been able to outmuscle those boards financially. I think we have gotten to the point with the holes in the batting order that we don't really know what we are doing anymore. I believe we are just throwing things at the board now and hoping they stick while waiting for Hameed to mature into the international class batsmen he should become. The good news is that it doesn't seem to hurt us all that often as we've traded off top end quality for lower order depth which against most seems to work pretty well. Australia in Australia is a different kettle of fish entirely though. I hate the idea of a T20 franchise but, based on Friday, one day cricket works better under lights than test cricket. It just felt much later than it actually was on Friday by the time the rain came. We got home at about 9.30 and it felt like the middle of the night! T20s start later and you have more excitement. Test cricket can be attritional and that is less likely to keep your average punter warm compared to shorter, more explosive formats. I suspect you're right about the initial excitement and subsequent decline to the mean though when it comes to the new tournament. The planned exposure on terestrial tv and massive marketing budget may even have lead to an even bigger increase in attendance for the Blast had they invested in the existing structure. The thing is I'm not against them trying things - it's the throw the baby out with the bathwater tendency that annoys me. So we set-up T20 and needlessly lost the previously pretty successful one day knock out. Now we have a relatively successful T20 competition which gets good crowds and generates much needed interest in unfashionable countries - and that will now be undermined by an attempt to ape the IPL/Big Bash model which is ultimately a slippery slope towards semi-professional country cricket for those outside the test grounds. In other words - reducing 18 centre to 6-8. Have they even announced which 8 grounds are getting teams yet? Rose Bowl, Bristol and Cardiff can't all get teams if they put 2 in London. |
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Aug 23, 2017 21:08:17 GMT
I've come to this thread a bit late but here goes.
The WI are a poor side and everyone knew that the England batsmen were going to fill their boots with runs. But whilst they are poor and their bowlers bowled poorly it was the efforts of Cook and Root which made the big difference. Stoneman and Westley did ok and Malan did better but all three batsmen have question marks over them for the opening test match in Australia which this series should be resolving. I thought that before the SA series we had to decide on an opening partner for Cook, a number 3, although I would move Root up to 3, and a number 5. We also needed to find a second spinner and a fourth fast bowler. I think jack is right, I would put Root at 3 and look to play Ballance at 4 or 5 and obviously give Malan a chance. The extra fast bowler looks to have resolved itself with Roland-Jones seizing his opportunity. Mark Wood will be in the squad and if he can come good we will be strong in that department. Chris Woakes is unlucky but may get a chance in the remaining tests. Hameed will go and may well start the first test.
I don't know if they are as bad as we all think. In the warm up matches against Essex and Leics they did alright, nothing special but ok. Watching Sky and listening to the TMS does give a very bad narrative of WI cricket. Michael Holding was so grumpy and everyone took their lead from him and on TMS Boycott was so critical that it seemed once the match started badly it just got worse. Their batsmen were poor, I can't remember when a test team lost 19 wickets in a day. They are playing for pride now and they should improve, hopefully. Like you jack I see a lot of Championship cricket and have seen most of Somerset's home matches this season except the first and like you I can say that our bowling attack of the Overtons, Groenewald and Gregory with Leach and Bess to spin are far superior than what I saw in the first test. I would have said the Somerset batsmen were better but after some awful displays this year I don't know if I can truthfully say that!! But the point made by Irish puts it into context, this is their second or third team. All their best players are not playing, preferring the 20/20 back home at the moment. What an inept Board of Control to timetable this competition at the same time as agreeing to tour England. The WI B of C seem to seek out conflict with their best players, it seems very strange. As was said it might need to divide test cricket into two divisions and allow the WI to learn test cricket against the lower ranked teams. Sounds a good idea but I wonder if they would agree to that, pride might stop them. From the little I know about the WI cricketers and their B of C appears to show that they are very stubborn people who talk themselves into a corner with little chance of compromise so I don't know if a two tier test competition would work for them. One of the problems is the finance of international cricket. With the ICC now dominated by India, England and Australia esp India money seems to be going to where it has been generated, mainly those three nations, leaving much less for the rest including the WI. The ICC are not going to interfere with an independent Board of Control and it is up to them to choose their best team. If they won't do that and pay accordingly then I can't see any way to climb back, it's a real shame. I remember seeing the WI in 1966 and 1969 at Taunton, what great teams they were esp the 66 team. Even in 1969 though a bit weaker they had great players. They are but a shadow now and you are right they do need help.
The day night match at Edgbaston was done I presume to give England experience in readiness for Australia. We're not going to get any in the next two years so it will be 2020 before the next one or the possibility of one. India won't agree to it next summer because of timing issues. I can't say I saw too much of the evening sessions because whilst I will watch for periods during the morning and afternoon there's family stuff to do in the evening so I tend not to see as much then. I saw the recorded hour but not much more of the last session. So it was interesting to hear jack that you went so it's good to get your view. But as we've said before Irish, England isn't Australia or India and watching in the evening isn't always comfortable and the weather isn't reliable.
And that may be the serious drawback to the new 20 over competition as well. But I think people might be more prepared to watch a quick bash for an evening rather than the chess-like tactics that a test match generates. Test cricket Is a style of cricket more suited to the cricket enthusiast but whether they will watch it when it's getting chilly I don't know. I think the excitement of 20 over cricket will be exciting enough to overcome the chillier weather and the audience will probably stand for it, but I'm not sure! The TV rights on terrestrial should make it a wider audience. Deciding upon the teams will be a fight in itself. Presuming there are 2 teams in London, 1 in Birmingham, 1 in Manchester, 1 in Leeds and 1 in Nottingham that will leave 2 teams from Cardiff, Bristol, Durham and Southampton. That will be a fight and argument in itself. Durham in view of their probems may decide not to apply for a franchise but I would expect the ECB to want a team in the NE/Newcastle area and Mr Bransgrove in Southampton will be demanding a franchise as will Cardiff. Will that mean no franchise for Bristol and the south west? I can't believe that Taunton who completely sell out for the 20 over won't be involved but we haven't got a large stadium to play cricket so it's likely we won't be involved. I hope Bristol can develop a south west franchise but I'm not sure.
Incidentally, related to the point about money for the smaller test playing countries is the case of Kyle Abbot of Hampshire and South Africa. I've seen him several times this season and he is the best fast bowler I've seen this season more accurate than the Overtons and faster than the Currans at Surrey. He was a truly fast, accurate fast bowler with a great action. It was a better financial package to sign a 4 year contract with Hampshire than remain in test cricket and that with a team 2nd in the world! Confirms what you've both said about county cricket in this country being fairly strong financially. Mind you I'm not sure Derbyshire, Leicestershire would be able to afford it. Hampshire like Surrey seem to be able to afford stuff other counties can't.
Im looking forward to tomorrow's 20/20 quarter final for Somerset v Nottingham. If it's anything like our quarter final in the 50 over competition then it will be a great match. Our bowlers against their batsmen will decide it I think but as it's Somerset I suspect it will be either a gallant defeat after grasping defeat from the jaws of victory or a big defeat after chasing a big score!
Sometimes supporting Somerset is like supporting Rovers, you're always hopeful but you know it will end in failure and tears!!
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Aug 23, 2017 23:27:32 GMT
Hope it's a better game than the first 2 quarter final and that Somerset win it. I mean Afridi's knock was amazing obviously but neither have been proper contest which is what knock out cricket should be all about. Would have liked one of Derby or Leicester to make it - nice to see an unfashionable county do well.
Point about Kyle Abbott is well made but English county is clearly also becoming more and more unequal.
On T20 - have you met many people who have said to you something along the lines off 'I didn't use to like cricket but I got dragged to T20 and now I'm really into it'. I just suspect that the ECB narrative of T20 as a kind of entry drug for cricket doesn't quite reflect reality. Looking around at audiences I feel that it is more a case of consolidating existing fans by putting cricket on at a time they can go - I look forward to being proven wrong though.
It's difficult not to just feel sad about Windies cricket. But in some way it might be crocodile. After all this is a team whose sides did a T20 double at the men's and women's World Cup and churn out IPL stars at a fair lick. They just don't do Test cricket anymore. I mean seriously a Windies of Gayle, Darren Bravo, Dwayne Smith, Dwayne Bravo, Hope, Pollard, Ramdhin, Russell, Sammy, Gabriel and Narine would be an OK team. We'd still win a series but they'd compete. |
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Aug 24, 2017 21:54:24 GMT
Your point about not meeting people who say they've been attracted to cricket through 20/20 is well made. No, neither have I, most of the people I meet at cricket are cricket fans and have been attracted to it through cricket, through family links and not 20/20. A further point to be made is that several of the people I sit with at Championship matches I attend don't go to 20/20 matches. I don't go to many 20/20 matches because I have to travel and I do that for a four day match and stay over but not for a match which may be over in 10 minutes! The people I sit with do and I will go to the one day, 50 overs matches but not 20/20 because they just don't like it. That's quite unusual at Taunton and I see that Somerset have announced today that all their home matches this season were complete sell-outs, making it 20 consecutive sell outs which is astounding when you consider gates at most of the other counties have dropping attendances. And a time when Somerset have been comparitively poor over the past three campaigns. Obviously this years gates aren't in but I think only Somerset and Surrey were getting sell outs before this season. When I read that today on the SCCC website I wondered if they were placing themselves politically to make a bid for one of the franchises that will be coming, I can't imagine it really but today's announcement made me think.
The quarter final went pretty match as I thought. Our batsmen weren't strong enough and we were 30/40 runs short and despite good early overs and middle overs Notts batsmen batted sensibly and just got over the line. Mind you the catch Trego made got the fans going and Hales not going (back to the pavilion that is!) and livened it up. Hales acted like a 5 year old who didn't get what he wanted and started to behave petulantly esp after the umpires all said he was out. Anyway good luck to Notts in finals day, they look a strong one day team and must be favourites.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2017 12:40:12 GMT
I find myself in the peculiar position of hoping England lose a Test match. I don't think they will, but its been good to see WI bounce back strongly from their embarrassment at Edgbaston regardless of the result.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Aug 29, 2017 16:41:12 GMT
I find myself in the peculiar position of hoping England lose a Test match. I don't think they will, but its been good to see WI bounce back strongly from their embarrassment at Edgbaston regardless of the result. Yes - their resilience has been incredible here. It's not been a particularly high quality Test Match but Windies have shown immense guts and definitely deserve something against a flat England side who are still paying on the 5th Day for a poor batting performance on the 1st Day. Still, you can never argue with a Test Match that goes into the final session of the 5th day with all 4 results possible. I think I make them ever so slight favourites over the draw at this stage (they need 66 with New Ball due) with England win the third most likely. However, if England nip one out before they are within 50 then I think that order completely flips around - it's pretty good! |
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Aug 29, 2017 18:34:48 GMT
I find myself in the peculiar position of hoping England lose a Test match. I don't think they will, but its been good to see WI bounce back strongly from their embarrassment at Edgbaston regardless of the result. It has been good to see WI bounce back and watching the afternoon play showed how cool the WI middle order has been. Also, seeing Joe Root talk after he had lost the match, come out and talk very sensibly about the match when he must be feeling very disappointed was impressive. I still think England will win the series with a win at Lords but this result will create far more interest. And it's always good to see the underdog fight back after they had been thrashed at Edgbaston. They deserve great credit. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Aug 29, 2017 18:47:18 GMT
I find myself in the peculiar position of hoping England lose a Test match. I don't think they will, but its been good to see WI bounce back strongly from their embarrassment at Edgbaston regardless of the result. It has been good to see WI bounce back and watching the afternoon play showed how cool the WI middle order has been. Also, seeing Joe Root talk after he had lost the match, come out and talk very sensibly about the match when he must be feeling very disappointed was impressive. I still think England will win the series with a win at Lords but this result will create far more interest. And it's always good to see the underdog fight back after they had been thrashed at Edgbaston. They deserve great credit. Yes - hopefully this won't push Root into a conservative shell that has afflicted recent England captain's. Declaring was absolutely the right decision but his bowlers were a bit under par, the fielding unusual ragged and Hope and Brathwaite batted extraordinarily well. Everything definitely ran WI's way but sometimes you do just have to hold your hand up and say you got beat. I'm looking forward to the final test now and I don't think a bit of competitive pressure will do this England side any harm at all - they're not that good or that complete a side and to win they still need to give it everything; if they have off days they can lose to anyone and they have in general in the last 18 months. However, you have to say the big problems are still there. 2/3/5 all very much unsettled in the batting order and, unfortunately, this game probably re-opens the debate about Moeen's effectiveness as our only spinner. One bad game at a ground that isn't well known for being spinning friendly is hardly the end of the world but I'm sure that general issue will raise itself now with Australia looming. |
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Aug 29, 2017 19:16:44 GMT
Interesting few weeks I'm sure. I guess Stoneman and Malan have questions over them because they need to do more and get some runs. Westley, I just don't think he's test standard. It was always a strange selection anyway because he wasn't being mentioned before a very good first half of the season. He seems to struggle on the off stump, which isn't unusual, and I think if the WI bowlers have been able to work him out then the Australian bowlers will as well. Moeen Ali can be criticised but I think it's a bit tough because Headingly has never helped spin bowlers and batting at 8 meant England were able to declare. Still, not all bad, Stokes has cemented his place as one of the best all rounders in the world and he proved that he can also grind out a good score when all depended on him. It was also an example of test cricket at its best. The pendulum swung several ways and I just thought it was great cricket. The main two worries for me are numbers 3 and 5. Malan has done ok and should get a place for Oz. Stoneman similar but we need a 3, I'd go for Root moving up and bringing Balance back but that's only papering over the cracks tbh.Hameed need s to go but I just hope he gets some runs. The other worry is fast bowling. Anderson and Broad are shoe ins but then it's Woakes, Roland-Jones, Wood for the third bowling spot and I don't think even Baylis knows his preference let alone the rest of us. Today was an example of a helpful pitch, helpful conditions in the morning yet neither Anderson nor Broad bowled very well. They were ok and it would be tough to say they were anything less than ok but it wasn't their day and Woakes didn't threaten.
We look at England but that's a bit unfair on the WI because it was their day and they deserve the plaudits.
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Aug 30, 2017 9:23:28 GMT
I wrote the West Indies obituary after the last test so I am both flabbergasted and really pleased for them. I can't believe how composed they were during the run chase yesterday. If they come out of this series with a core of players they can build a side around over the next 5 to 10 years then that is progress for them. If they could reconcile their differences with Bravo and add him to Hope and Brathwaite then they have the makings of a decent batting line up. Holder is a decent 3rd seamer and lower order batsman and of they can keep Gabriel and Roach fit then maybe they can become a bit more competitive.
Well done to the umpires too as it looked far darker yesterday that it did when the umpires took England off for bad light at the Oval against the Aussies a few years ago. England bowled their overs very slowly yesterday and had they been pressing for victory I don't think it would have been unreasonable for the umpires to take them off. As it was, the West Indies were not complicit in the slow over rate so I think it was reasonable that they stayed on. I hope the ICC fine Root too. Slow over rates are more of an issue than swearing in the proximity of a stump-mic in my opinion.
Moeen had a bad day yesterday and I think he tends to bowl better when the pressure is off. He has the ability he just has to learn to deal with the pressure. I think in Saqlain they seem to have the right mentor but it might be worth playing a second spinner in the interim when conditions dictate. I thought the interview the coach gave afterwards was interesting. He basically confirmed that the reason they picked him as the second spinner at the start of the summer is that they don't feel he is mentally tough enough to bowl England to victory. Truthful perhaps but can't do much for Moeen's confidence.
Still questions over 2, 3 and 5 but Stoneman and Malan (despite my reservations) both showed signs that they are getting to grips with test cricket. Westley looks terrified of getting out in the same way again but the coach suggested he'd get another couple of tests. There aren't many other options for the top 3 so that is probably wise although I wonder if they will consider going back to Sam Robson. He's in decent form, was very young when he was picked last time and was bought up in Australia.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Aug 30, 2017 11:15:02 GMT
I wrote the West Indies obituary after the last test so I am both flabbergasted and really pleased for them. I can't believe how composed they were during the run chase yesterday. If they come out of this series with a core of players they can build a side around over the next 5 to 10 years then that is progress for them. If they could reconcile their differences with Bravo and add him to Hope and Brathwaite then they have the makings of a decent batting line up. Holder is a decent 3rd seamer and lower order batsman and of they can keep Gabriel and Roach fit then maybe they can become a bit more competitive. Well done to the umpires too as it looked far darker yesterday that it did when the umpires took England off for bad light at the Oval against the Aussies a few years ago. England bowled their overs very slowly yesterday and had they been pressing for victory I don't think it would have been unreasonable for the umpires to take them off. As it was, the West Indies were not complicit in the slow over rate so I think it was reasonable that they stayed on. I hope the ICC fine Root too. Slow over rates are more of an issue than swearing in the proximity of a stump-mic in my opinion. Moeen had a bad day yesterday and I think he tends to bowl better when the pressure is off. He has the ability he just has to learn to deal with the pressure. I think in Saqlain they seem to have the right mentor but it might be worth playing a second spinner in the interim when conditions dictate. I thought the interview the coach gave afterwards was interesting. He basically confirmed that the reason they picked him as the second spinner at the start of the summer is that they don't feel he is mentally tough enough to bowl England to victory. Truthful perhaps but can't do much for Moeen's confidence. Still questions over 2, 3 and 5 but Stoneman and Malan (despite my reservations) both showed signs that they are getting to grips with test cricket. Westley looks terrified of getting out in the same way again but the coach suggested he'd get another couple of tests. There aren't many other options for the top 3 so that is probably wise although I wonder if they will consider going back to Sam Robson. He's in decent form, was very young when he was picked last time and was bought up in Australia. Yes - the Windies performance cannot be praised enough. I'm not sure I've seen such a turn around in approach - they showed real character for such a young tean. At Edgbaston they just looked like rabbits in floodlights (see what I did there!) but in this Test they showed real grit. Yes, quite a lot went their way yesterday but they'd earned every one of those breaks. I thought Gabriel made a real difference to their attack - seemed to genuinely beat a few of the English batsmen for pace on the 1st day and that may have given them a lift. It's really tough to play in a struggling side so Hope and Brathwaite have had proper baptisms of fire in their test careers. But there's clearly quality there and even Blackwood's innings at the end showed a certain amount of guts. I mean West Indies could in theory have a team of Brathwaite, Gayle, Hope, Dwayne Bravo, Samuels, Blackwood/Pollard, Ramdin, Holder, Taylor, Gabriel, Narine. Now that would be a decent outfit - sadly never going to happen. Agree with the umpires - I felt England were trying it on a bit at times. Although I'm not sure they went the whole hog as they were rightly concerned that the press would have absolutely slaughtered if they'd engineered a draw for the light. Moeen did have a bad day but I also feel like the pitch really didn't do as much for him as it did the previous day which was a bit odd. We are running out of options batting wise with the Ashes right around the corner. It's going to be difficult job selecting that squad. You could made a positive or negative case for pretty much anyone England have tried over the last 18 months (I'd have another look at Lyth for example) but the bottom line is nobody has stuck in those positions and I don't think we can be very confident about any of them. If Bell was in any kind of form I would probably advocated taking him at 5 for the experience factor and he tends to do quite well in Australia. As it is we don't even have the fallback veteran option. Tricky. I don't want to be too harsh on Root though because it was refreshing to see a declaration like that. |
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bluetornados
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Post by bluetornados on Sept 10, 2017 1:18:41 GMT
England thrash the West Indies to win the series 2-1..not a good advert for test cricket 2 tests all over in 3 days.
England stuffed them by an inns & mega runs in 3 days, they won the 2nd test which was a cracking match.
How many people have had their sunday day out at lords ruined, booking hotels and many other costs.
I agree you can't tell how any game is going to pan out, but test cricket just ain't cricket any more.
It has made us look better than we are and will the Aussie's be quaking in their boots..i think not.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Sept 10, 2017 17:56:13 GMT
Yes blue tornado you are correct on many things. With two of the tests over in 3 days it does appear one-side and as you say people who've booked hotels etc.etc. will be disappointed. The WI are certainly not the test team they were but let's face it apart from Brathwait and Hope and their bowlers Roach, Gabriel and Holder who I thought bowled well we weren't even playing their second Xl, more their third team. Australia won't be quaking in their boots but then after they've just shared a test series with Bangladesh 1-1 neither will we. I guess the truth is both teams are beatable and the bowling of both teams will be their strongest part. The Australian bowlers will probably hold the advantage in Australian conditions but I also think in Cook and Root England have the best two batsmen. All in all I think both teams are pretty close and we can expect some very close matches.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Sept 11, 2017 15:03:32 GMT
Yes blue tornado you are correct on many things. With two of the tests over in 3 days it does appear one-side and as you say people who've booked hotels etc.etc. will be disappointed. The WI are certainly not the test team they were but let's face it apart from Brathwait and Hope and their bowlers Roach, Gabriel and Holder who I thought bowled well we weren't even playing their second Xl, more their third team. Australia won't be quaking in their boots but then after they've just shared a test series with Bangladesh 1-1 neither will we. I guess the truth is both teams are beatable and the bowling of both teams will be their strongest part. The Australian bowlers will probably hold the advantage in Australian conditions but I also think in Cook and Root England have the best two batsmen. All in all I think both teams are pretty close and we can expect some very close matches. I think they made a poor decision to bat first in this one. I'm sure they wanted to build on the previous game so it was understandable but exposing yourself to England's attack in those conditions was always going to be tough. On the other hand this one was not the one sided thrashing Edgbaston was at all. There were moments where the game swung back the other way. Windies could easily have knocked us over for 120-150 first innings. My feeling is that this is probably what you get if you play Test Match cricket at Lords in September more than anything else (I mean look at the County scores last week-batting was flipping difficult everywhere). So I blame administrators for the fact it ended in 3 days rather than it being a Windies capitulation - I think that is quite a harsh assessment of the Lords Test. We were clearly the better team but they still gave us some trouble - it wasn't a walk over, Edgbaston was just an embarrasment. Ashes looks like a battle between 2 teams with big questions over the batting and, yes, you would expect that to benefit Australia more than us in Aussie conditions. I'm kind of surprised that Bayliss kicked off the war of words, it seems a bit out of character (normally very low key) for him too - if anything I'd have thought England would be downplaying their expectations. |
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Sept 11, 2017 15:21:52 GMT
All good points Irish. We said earlier in the Summer about the ECB and their scheduling dilemma. Yes it was a poor decision to bat first. I don't know the statistics but I wonder when the last test match had all four innings totalling less than 200 was, I can't think of one. Certainly not in this country. Yes it is strange to play test cricket in September but it's because of all the other time problems. And now the ECB have said that English test cricketers will be allowed to play in the IPL then expect even more attempts to squeeze in matches or stretch out the season. What do you reckon a day or two of first class cricket in March or even October?
The WI were unlucky but they have the basis for a better test team with their bowlers and a couple of decent batsmen. Only 11.5 days if test cricket in this series, not good as an advert for test cricket although the second test was a very good advert?
The next three rounds of championship cricket will be very interesting. Will Lancs put Somerset into bat tomorrow at 10.30 start now we're in September? Could be 17-3 by 11.00!! I don't really mind the matches in September because weather wise I don't think we've lost any more days than previously it's just the weather will help the bowlers and with contrived tosses some will have a distinct disadvantage. Whatever, I'm looking forward to it for the next few days. I also think it's the first time Jos Buttler will have played in a championship match for Lancs at Taunton since joining Lancs. He should get a generally warm welcome although a few ironic cheers if he does well or other! Whatever it should be a good match with both teams needing to win.
Regarding the Australian series I was surprised at Bayliss' comments as well. So it appears likely that Westley, Malan and Stoneman will go. Think in Stonemans case that's pretty fair and probably Malan but I have doubts over Westley like most others. With the test match ending early Sky had to fill their schedules and had an hour if discussion about the team to take to Australia. I found it interesting to hear Warne come out strongly for Mason Crane to go as second spinner but that Atherton thought he would probably go because the selectors had decided he was the future. Nasser H said he should only go if he plays, making the sensible point that at his age he needs to bowl and not just carry the drinks. Only Ian Botham made the point what does Jack Leach need to do having been the top spinner last season for wickets taken and similar this year. In actual fact both Leach and Dom Bess have taken more wickets than Crane and Dawson but I still reckon Crane will go.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Sept 11, 2017 17:53:15 GMT
All good points Irish. We said earlier in the Summer about the ECB and their scheduling dilemma. Yes it was a poor decision to bat first. I don't know the statistics but I wonder when the last test match had all four innings totalling less than 200 was, I can't think of one. Certainly not in this country. Yes it is strange to play test cricket in September but it's because of all the other time problems. And now the ECB have said that English test cricketers will be allowed to play in the IPL then expect even more attempts to squeeze in matches or stretch out the season. What do you reckon a day or two of first class cricket in March or even October? The WI were unlucky but they have the basis for a better test team with their bowlers and a couple of decent batsmen. Only 11.5 days if test cricket in this series, not good as an advert for test cricket although the second test was a very good advert? The next three rounds of championship cricket will be very interesting. Will Lancs put Somerset into bat tomorrow at 10.30 start now we're in September? Could be 17-3 by 11.00!! I don't really mind the matches in September because weather wise I don't think we've lost any more days than previously it's just the weather will help the bowlers and with contrived tosses some will have a distinct disadvantage. Whatever, I'm looking forward to it for the next few days. I also think it's the first time Jos Buttler will have played in a championship match for Lancs at Taunton since joining Lancs. He should get a generally warm welcome although a few ironic cheers if he does well or other! Whatever it should be a good match with both teams needing to win. Regarding the Australian series I was surprised at Bayliss' comments as well. So it appears likely that Westley, Malan and Stoneman will go. Think in Stonemans case that's pretty fair and probably Malan but I have doubts over Westley like most others. With the test match ending early Sky had to fill their schedules and had an hour if discussion about the team to take to Australia. I found it interesting to hear Warne come out strongly for Mason Crane to go as second spinner but that Atherton thought he would probably go because the selectors had decided he was the future. Nasser H said he should only go if he plays, making the sensible point that at his age he needs to bowl and not just carry the drinks. Only Ian Botham made the point what does Jack Leach need to do having been the top spinner last season for wickets taken and similar this year. In actual fact both Leach and Dom Bess have taken more wickets than Crane and Dawson but I still reckon Crane will go. Oh you can definitely get matches in through September I'm confident but I'm pretty sure that the ball dominates the bat more often than not in them. I have nothing particularly against that though as it tends to produce more exciting games overall. If Lancs bowl first then if you can survive that first hour or so you can make hay because their backup seam attack looks fairly vulnerable - they're pretty reliant on Jarvis. On the other hand if Somerset then they have to get past the brick wall of Hameed!
No doubt Boycott will be banging on his favourite hobby horse of 4 day tests again with stats like the above. Maybe but only if they get overrates under control and I think people misunderstand how the psychology of it works to. The fact it could go to 5 days is part of the reason sides crumble went faced with having to bat it out. If they didn't have that I actually think you'd get many more draws. I'm not sure I quite get the fuss about Mason Crane at this point - seems to be flavour of the month though so maybe I have missed something.
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