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Post by eppinggas on Jan 12, 2022 10:46:05 GMT
Thanks to all for the recommendations in this thread. A few more for me to dig out. I've just read the following:
The Turning Season - DDR Oberliga revisited, Michael Wagg.
A ground-hopping tour of the Clubs that made up the last season of top tier East German Football.
Football, politics, geography and history. Also references the East German national side.
Fun facts:
East Germany only played West Germany once. An historic 1-0 win in West Germany in the 1974 World Cup. Scorer, Jurgen Sparwasser.
The only winner of a European trophy by an East German side was 1. FC Magdeburg - beating AC Milan in 1974, 2-0 in the Cup-Winners Cup.
The Govt backed 'Stasi' team of FC Dynamo Berlin won (was allowed to win) 10 titles on the trot '79 - '88. Currently languishing in tier 4. No-one likes them.
The only East German team currently in the Bundesliga is Union Berlin. Union were actually in tier 2 in the final Oberliga season.
Note. No-one considers RB Leipzig as "East German". No-one likes them.
Of the final season 14 Oberliga sides as of 2019/2020: 5 are now in tier 4, 1 in tier 6 (FC Eissenhuttenstadt) and one in tier 7 (Stahl Brandenburg).
An interesting read. If you like German football.
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Post by eppinggas on Jan 13, 2022 12:08:55 GMT
Also finished "Punk Football - The Rise of Fan Ownership in English Football" (Jim Keoghan).
It traces the origins of football and the initial ownership models to the different systems we have today. Sadly the only print is from 2014.
Focuses on recent fan ownership and Football Trusts. From Northampton Town in 1992 to specifics on AFC Wimbledon, Exeter City, FC United, Portsmouth*.
Also looks at Spanish fan ownership (Barcelona, Real Madrid - and not much else) and the marvellous German model (50+1% voting rights. Note no necessarily ownership).
My own conclusion. A 100% fan owned Club in the lower leagues would lead to a 'lower' ceiling. With (say) 5-10k members a sustainable model just can't deliver championship football.
(Wycombe Wanderers had just the one season in tier 2 recently - WW Trust has a 25% minority stake).
A Football Trust can definitely help a Football Club where they have a minority stake. It needs the buy in of the owners and a close working relationship the Trust.
With regard to Rovers - The Gas Trust never took off. The Share Scheme is dis-credited. A Supporters Trust 'might' be an excellent way to help the Club - practically and financially.
However we would need (IMHO of course):
1. A unified fan base (not going to happen with Barton employed).
2. A winding up of the SC Share Scheme.
3. A good working relationship with the Supporters Club which would not threaten an Independent Trust. SC seems to be reforming, so that's a start.
4. An acceptance by Wael Al-Qadi that he should reduce his share of ownership. If he retains 51% - why not?
Invariably 100% Fan Ownership happens when the owner of a Club with debts departs, and a buyer can't be found.
Then the only interest in keeping the Club going comes from supporters.
Wael Al-Qadi won't fund losses of £2.5-£3mil per year forever.
* Pompey Supporters Trust (PST) kept the Club afloat. Sadly they sold out to The Tornante Company in 2017 - an investment company owned by former Disney CEO Michael Eisner.
So they went back to the "Rich Sugar Daddy Model".
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jan 13, 2022 20:59:49 GMT
Also finished "Punk Football - The Rise of Fan Ownership in English Football" (Jim Keoghan). It traces the origins of football and the initial ownership models to the different systems we have today. Sadly the only print is from 2014. Focuses on recent fan ownership and Football Trusts. From Northampton Town in 1992 to specifics on AFC Wimbledon, Exeter City, FC United, Portsmouth*. Also looks at Spanish fan ownership (Barcelona, Real Madrid - and not much else) and the marvellous German model (50+1% voting rights. Note no necessarily ownership). My own conclusion. A 100% fan owned Club in the lower leagues would lead to a 'lower' ceiling. With (say) 5-10k members a sustainable model just can't deliver championship football. (Wycombe Wanderers had just the one season in tier 2 recently - WW Trust has a 25% minority stake). A Football Trust can definitely help a Football Club where they have a minority stake. It needs the buy in of the owners and a close working relationship the Trust. With regard to Rovers - The Gas Trust never took off. The Share Scheme is dis-credited. A Supporters Trust 'might' be an excellent way to help the Club - practically and financially. However we would need (IMHO of course): 1. A unified fan base (not going to happen with Barton employed). 2. A winding up of the SC Share Scheme. 3. A good working relationship with the Supporters Club which would not threaten an Independent Trust. SC seems to be reforming, so that's a start. 4. An acceptance by Wael Al-Qadi that he should reduce his share of ownership. If he retains 51% - why not? Invariably 100% Fan Ownership happens when the owner of a Club with debts departs, and a buyer can't be found. Then the only interest in keeping the Club going comes from supporters. Wael Al-Qadi won't fund losses of £2.5-£3mil per year forever. * Pompey Supporters Trust (PST) kept the Club afloat. Sadly they sold out to The Tornante Company in 1917 - an investment company owned by former Disney CEO Michael Eisner.
So they went back to the "Rich Sugar Daddy Model".Good stuff Epping. But one of the main factors in Pompey in selling to Michael Eisner was an acceptance that using the Supporters Trust model of fans owning the club put a glass ceiling on what the club could achieve. Do well in Leagues 1 and 2 but would be seriously out-gunned if they ever got to the Championship and for a club like Portsmouth the Championship is at least the place they need to be. As you say, Fans-owned clubs would only succeed in the Championship if others were the same and that is not going to happen any time soon. Unfortunately, unless there are big, big changes in football governance this won’t happen. Sorry, going off on a bit of a tangent away from the book theme. I’ve just finished Harry Pearson’s follow up book, The Farther Corner. All about a season's ground-hopping in the north east in 2018/19. A great idea accomplished partly because of the great public transport links. If you liked A Far Corner you’ll like this as well. |
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Post by badhand on Jan 13, 2022 22:48:34 GMT
Generation Game by Charlie Morris
A personal memoir of how three generations of one family become Crewe Alexandra supporters, and what should a fan do when the club is tainted by a child abuse scandal? Remain loyal or sever all connections?
First published in 2019 prior to the FA's independent review report.
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Jan 14, 2022 0:30:50 GMT
* Pompey Supporters Trust (PST) kept the Club afloat. Sadly they sold out to The Tornante Company in 1917 - an investment company owned by former Disney CEO Michael Eisner.
So they went back to the "Rich Sugar Daddy Model".Good stuff Epping. But one of the main factors in Pompey in selling to Michael Eisner was an acceptance that using the Supporters Trust model of fans owning the club put a glass ceiling on what the club could achieve. Do well in Leagues 1 and 2 but would be seriously out-gunned if they ever got to the Championship and for a club like Portsmouth the Championship is at least the place they need to be. As you say, Fans-owned clubs would only succeed in the Championship if others were the same and that is not going to happen any time soon. Unfortunately, unless there are big, big changes in football governance this won’t happen. Sorry, going off on a bit of a tangent away from the book theme. I’ve just finished Harry Pearson’s follow up book, The Farther Corner. All about a season's ground-hopping in the north east in 2018/19. A great idea accomplished partly because of the great public transport links. If you liked A Far Corner you’ll like this as well. Portsmouth is an interesting one. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompey_Supporters_TrustThey were the 'biggest' Club to be 100% Fan Owned. However their model was a bit odd. 'Only' 2,300 members pledged £1000. However even with that limited membership they became debt free within 18 months! Well run, sustainable, but in tier 4. Perhaps a secondary scheme offering more membership at a lower cost could have propelled them further up the pyramid? They have averaged around 15,000 this season. So I think a lot of untapped potential to take the model higher. It's a moot point. The PST members backed the takeover. I can't find if they actually made money from selling their holding. Maybe they were given an offer from Disney that they couldn't refuse. I'd like to think a well-supported Club like Portsmouth could compete in the championship under 100% fan ownership. Maybe wishful and idealistic thinking on my part. As for Rovers (average gate around 7,300) - I concede that the championship would be out of reach. But if Exeter can be a 'decent League 2' side, then I don't see why Rovers couldn't get to League 1 with the same model. As for ground-hopping, I'm covering the area around Epping with some enthusiasm... and will try and track down Harry Pearson's books... |
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Post by eppinggas on Jan 17, 2022 10:19:57 GMT
In the Shadow of Giants: Leandro Vignoli (2021).
A ground hopping tour of Europe looking at the sides and supporters of perennial underdogs in cities with a major football presence. (Sadly becoming a bit like being a Gashead).
Espanyol, Rayo Vallacano, 1860 Munich, Union Berlin, St Pauli, Millwall, Queens Park, Fulham, Orient, Bedenenses, Red Star Paris, Sparta Rotterdam and Torino.
OK - I'm sure there are 'better' examples than say Fulham or Millwall - but you get the gist.
Union Berlin are twice perennial underdogs. In the East German Oberliga the Stasi/Govt backed Dynamo Berlin were totally dominant. After German unification Hertha Berlin had the Olymicstadion, the money, the Bundesliga status and the bulk of he local support. Currently Union Berlin are in the Bundesliga and in a Europa Cup position. Hertha are 13th. Ha!
Needless to say my sympathies are with the underdog sides. Quite a few of them are left-leaning / anarchist and despite my generally right wing views, I like that.
These Clubs have a strong "DNA". Maybe Starnes was on to something after all?
The passion of the supporters really comes through.
It reminded me of what I used to feel about Bristol Rovers. We had that "DNA" - backs to the wall, fighting the odds, unified, sh*t stadium, vocal support, RTID etc etc.
For me that feeling has pretty much gone. "What" exactly am I supposed to be supporting?
I guess my support was drifting after the disastrous years after Coughlan departed. That 2-0 away win at Ipswich in Dec 2019 seems like a lifetime ago.
The drift accelerated under the monumentally stupid appointment of Barton.
Rayo Vallecano currently 6th in La Liga! Hoorah!
Union Berlin currently 5th in the Bundesliga! Hoorah!
Bristol Rovers currently 16th in League 2. So what?
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kingswood Polak
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Post by kingswood Polak on Jan 20, 2022 13:30:24 GMT
"Saturday 3pm - 50 eternal delights of modern football." - Daniel Gray.
Football may well be 'The Beautiful Game', but cricket always had the poetry and prose. Cricket seemed to have the best writers: Arlott; Robertson-Glasgow; Cardus; Gibson; Swanton; James; Keating; Barnes, and so on. I think things started to change with the advent of Football Fanzines, and has been carried on in the age of Bloggers. "Saturday 3pm ... " is probably the best writing on football I've seen. It comprises 50 short essays on subjects such as 'Seeing a ground from the train' / 'Watching an away end erupt' / 'Getting the fixture list' / 'Listening to the results in the car' / 'The first day of the season' / 'Slide tackles in the mud' / 'Standing on a terrace' / 'When the ball goes in the crowd' / 'Outfield players in goal'. I found I could relate to every one of the 50 essays. Daniel Gray is a Middleborough fan, and one game he saw in the north east features Rovers in a chapter titled 'Singing'. It was Gateshead v Bristol Rovers, and here is a short extract: " One supporter starting singing, and before he had finished the first word, five or six more had joined him. By the second line of the song, hundreds were in on the round, most now standing, arms aloft. 'Irene, goodnight, Irene/Irene goodnight,' they sang in surprisingly arresting melody. 'Goodnight, Irene/Goodnight, Irene/I'll see you in my dreams.' A reprise followed, and by now it was impossible to spy a soul who hadn't joined in the chorus. On this habitually dull February afternoon they had sprinkled romance around an athletics stadium set in an industrial estate. It wasn't just the content of the song, or the whirring Bristol lilt, that conjured this rosy sheen, nor the unity and shared sense of purpose. It was the uncomplicated jubilation of strangers singing, of base affection expressed." If anyone else has a good football book to recommend, to help get through the close season, I would be most grateful! It was our vow to the team we support and i find it hard to hear it when at the speed they do now. I remember standing on a table, at the then Polish club and singing it to wind up the lads who were city. The norm was songs from the old country and i used to see a few of the old gentlemen with tears in their eyes, it must have given them some kind of memory of their own. A magical song when done right and its ours one ted said our song is drink upon thy cider and i just laughed and said its thee cider and it used to be sung on the Tote, before Adge died and the rest brought out that silly song, for them |
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kingswood Polak
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Post by kingswood Polak on Jan 20, 2022 13:35:16 GMT
music, fashion and local rivalry all in one - booted and suited by Chris Brown Yes, surprised it not being mentioned, i loved it and have re read it, twice. I would have enjoyed living in those days |
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kingswood Polak
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Post by kingswood Polak on Jan 20, 2022 13:46:09 GMT
In the Shadow of Giants: Leandro Vignoli (2021). A ground hopping tour of Europe looking at the sides and supporters of perennial underdogs in cities with a major football presence. (Sadly becoming a bit like being a Gashead). Espanyol, Rayo Vallacano, 1860 Munich, Union Berlin, St Pauli, Millwall, Queens Park, Fulham, Orient, Bedenenses, Red Star Paris, Sparta Rotterdam and Torino. OK - I'm sure there are 'better' examples than say Fulham or Millwall - but you get the gist. Union Berlin are twice perennial underdogs. In the East German Oberliga the Stasi/Govt backed Dynamo Berlin were totally dominant. After German unification Hertha Berlin had the Olymicstadion, the money, the Bundesliga status and the bulk of he local support. Currently Union Berlin are in the Bundesliga and in a Europa Cup position. Hertha are 13th. Ha! Needless to say my sympathies are with the underdog sides. Quite a few of them are left-leaning / anarchist and despite my generally right wing views, I like that. These Clubs have a strong "DNA". Maybe Starnes was on to something after all? The passion of the supporters really comes through. It reminded me of what I used to feel about Bristol Rovers. We had that "DNA" - backs to the wall, fighting the odds, unified, sh*t stadium, vocal support, RTID etc etc. For me that feeling has pretty much gone. "What" exactly am I supposed to be supporting? I guess my support was drifting after the disastrous years after Coughlan departed. That 2-0 away win at Ipswich in Dec 2019 seems like a lifetime ago. The drift accelerated under the monumentally stupid appointment of Barton. Rayo Vallecano currently 6th in La Liga! Hoorah! Union Berlin currently 5th in the Bundesliga! Hoorah! Bristol Rovers currently 16th in League 2. So what? That is, very much, how i feel sans the political views. I tend to leave that alone wrt football but it does seem many clubs have hard right support, would be interesting to have a truthful poll |
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Admin
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Post by Admin on Feb 4, 2022 13:39:23 GMT
Bit of a break to the next short review. I had to get through "A Farewell to Arms". Not a lot about football in that one.
Sing When You're Winning: Colin Irwin (2006). Irwin is a Woking fan who set off around the country to research chants, culture and atmosphere at football grounds. Not a huge amount in the book will come as much of a surprise. Better stadiums we have - better atmosphere, we do not. The drift from working class affordable entertainment to expensive all-seater stadiums and the awful culture of Sky / Premiership football. A lot has changed (for the worse) since 2006. Early on the author celebrates the culture at Brentford, in sharp contrast to his obvious loathing of chelski and the Abramovic millions. And what are Brentford now? Just a smaller version of chelski with their own millionaire benefactor. Special mentions to Stockport (yet to implode and destined for the National League north). Covers a lot of Clubs (Rovers only in passing as he sees them at Poxford) - from the likes of Man united, Liverpool and Newcastle down to Rochdale, Colchester (then Layer Road), TNS and Wick Academy in the Highland League. The book is 'kind of' searching for the soul of football. In 2006 the pulse was not as strong as it once was. I wonder what Irwin would make of it now? For me, the soul has departed. The top 5 divisions are ludicrously expensive to attend and it's a horrible industry squeezing money out of mug punters. Football in the Community? Family Clubs? Clubs demeaning themselves by hiring rapists and violent thugs because it's 'a results based industry'.
I'm in Covid isolation at the moment. No chance of me getting to the Essex Senior League this weekend. I'll miss it. For that seems to be where there is still a pulse.
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Post by eppinggas on Feb 7, 2022 18:45:02 GMT
Das ReBoot (How German Football Reinvented itself and Conquered the World): Raphael Honigstein (2015). A look back from the Brazil World Cup 2014 triumph and how Germany got there. Sadly German football didn't decide to re-invent itself after England thrashed them 1-5 in Munich, the history goes back further a little further than that. The starting point was putting a robust youth structure in place in the late 90's. They were able to realise that despite reaching the 2002 World Cup Final, they were papering over cracks. Something fundamental different had to happen before hosting the 2006 World Cup. Klinsmann came in and changed the culture. Better team discipline and professionalism, not relying on untouchable 'stars'. A fitter team. A creditable third place with a young side provided the springboard for what came next. Joachim Low as manager. However the father figure for the 'new style' of play - very fit, high pressing, dynamic, attacking sides with a strong team ethic was a certain Ralf Rangnick. Add to that incredibly detailed preparation, additional training, additional analysis, use of cutting edge SAP technology and you finally get to... Brazil 1 Germany 7. Germany admitted easing up in the second half as they didn't want to pile further humiliation on the hosts. Only Shurrle made any effort in the 2nd 45 minutes, scoring twice.
I wonder what happened to Ralf Rangnick? Two of his big proteges were Jurgen Klopp and Thomas Tuchtel.
Of course the structure in Germany helped the re-invention. They have strong governance. The Clubs are run with the 51% fan 'ownership' model. They put youth development and the national team as a priority. Supporters needs (Club and Country) are put above maximising commercial revenue from the TV companies.
The book gets a bit bogged down in detail. But it's worth a read. English football could learn a lot. I guess with the hiring of the likes of Rangnick, Klopp and Tuchel it is an indication that perhaps zee Germans know best. (I would note that Guardiola's approach at Bayern also adheres to a lot of the principles that the 'Rangnick' German football model employs).
Looks like English football will continue to use cash as a quick fix - buying in foreign mercenaries, ignoring youth development. Hey - we have Sky TV money - who gives a sh*t?
The England team looks... well... f*cked. Our losing final display in the 2021 Euros papered over the cracks. (Though ironically we beat Germany - they are going into a transitionary phase).
Anyhow - I reckon that puts us 20 years behind Germany. If we take note... don't hold your breath.
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Post by tenniscourtgas on Feb 9, 2022 19:35:49 GMT
I would recommend The Lost Babes by Jeff Connor, the story of Manchester United, and the forgotten victims of the Munich Air disaster.
I was 8 when this tragedy occurred, and is one of my earliest memories, I can remember coming home from school in Kingswood one afternoon, and the news of the plane crash was just being announced on the TV.
The impact on the country was obviously huge, and dominated newspapers for weeks, everyone closely following the club’s recovery, with a virtual reserve side reaching the FA Cup final at the end of that season, a footballing miracle.
Bobby Charlton, a 19 year old survivor, became a national hero, and also the public face of the team.
The book concentrates on the other survivors of the crash, whose lives were never the same, some who never played again, others had their careers shortened, suffering subsequent health repercussions, disabilities and often financial hardships.
It features interviews with relatives if the survivors, and one or two of the survivors themselves, during their lifetimes.
The clear theme is of these players and their families, feeling very bitter and resentful of their treatment by the club, in the years after the accident.
Even Charlton himself doesn’t escape criticism, he is now the one surviving member of the team.
The book was written in 2007, with Manchester United by then a huge financial institution, but tainted by their actions towards players who had seemingly become pushed aside, with the result that many of them, and their families, had little, or no time, for their old employers.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Oct 3, 2022 11:12:54 GMT
To resurrect this thread.
Reading ‘The Longest Winter’ by Mark Hodgkinson. All about Rochdale’s season in 1973-4. I think it was the worst record of any club in the Football League. They finished bottom of Division 3 the season we won promotion with Smash and Grab. It’s good esp for me remembering that season so well, my favourite of all time and the detail is great if you enjoy reading about post-industrial towns that have collapsed and reading more about social history than perhaps football.
Despite them being awful they still managed a 1-1 at Eastville though we did beat them 1-0 at their place in front of under 1000 people.
UTG!
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bluetornados
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Post by bluetornados on Oct 3, 2022 11:24:59 GMT
I recommend Kevin Keegan's book 'My Life in Football: The Autobiography' - a great read about one of my childhood heroes KK.
Just finished the book and have to say there is a lot of stuff on our very own Mr Joey Barton.
KK was his manager at both Newcastle and Manchester City, he doesn't mince his words or feelings about JB.
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Post by eppinggas on Oct 3, 2022 13:21:13 GMT
To resurrect this thread. Reading ‘The Longest Winter’ by Mark Hodgkinson. All about Rochdale’s season in 1973-4. I think it was the worst record of any club in the Football League. They finished bottom of Division 3 the season we won promotion with Smash and Grab. It’s good esp for me remembering that season so well, my favourite of all time and the detail is great if you enjoy reading about post-industrial towns that have collapsed and reading more about social history than perhaps football. Despite them being awful they still managed a 1-1 at Eastville though we did beat them 1-0 at their place in front of under 1000 people. UTG! I'll see you "the Longest Winter" and raise you "Life Sentence" - also by Mark Hodgkinson (and of course, also about Rochdale). I used to read it to my son when he was little. Little realising I was preparing him for the next 20 years of chronic underachievement following Bristol Rovers. |
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Oct 3, 2022 15:57:30 GMT
To resurrect this thread. Reading ‘The Longest Winter’ by Mark Hodgkinson. All about Rochdale’s season in 1973-4. I think it was the worst record of any club in the Football League. They finished bottom of Division 3 the season we won promotion with Smash and Grab. It’s good esp for me remembering that season so well, my favourite of all time and the detail is great if you enjoy reading about post-industrial towns that have collapsed and reading more about social history than perhaps football. Despite them being awful they still managed a 1-1 at Eastville though we did beat them 1-0 at their place in front of under 1000 people. UTG! I'll see you "the Longest Winter" and raise you "Life Sentence" - also by Mark Hodgkinson (and of course, also about Rochdale). I used to read it to my son when he was little. Little realising I was preparing him for the next 20 years of chronic underachievement following Bristol Rovers. Don’t know that one epping. ‘Life Sentence’, specific to a time or just a general, supporting a lower league club? UTG! |
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Post by eppinggas on Oct 3, 2022 16:37:20 GMT
I'll see you "the Longest Winter" and raise you "Life Sentence" - also by Mark Hodgkinson (and of course, also about Rochdale). I used to read it to my son when he was little. Little realising I was preparing him for the next 20 years of chronic underachievement following Bristol Rovers. Don’t know that one epping. ‘Life Sentence’, specific to a time or just a general, supporting a lower league club? UTG! Specific to Rochdale from what I remember... But I guess it also reflects the mentality of supporting a perennial struggler. Rochdale were statistically the worst team in the league when the book came out - having spent 28 consecutive years in the bottom division. Looks like it was 35 years before they finally gained promotion to tier 3 in 2009-2010. |
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bluetornados
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Post by bluetornados on Oct 3, 2022 22:49:28 GMT
Don’t know that one epping. ‘Life Sentence’, specific to a time or just a general, supporting a lower league club? UTG! Specific to Rochdale from what I remember... But I guess it also reflects the mentality of supporting a perennial struggler. Rochdale were statistically the worst team in the league when the book came out - having spent 28 consecutive years in the bottom division. Looks like it was 35 years before they finally gained promotion to tier 3 in 2009-2010. My team when i was a kid and since the 1975 FA Cup run was and is West Ham, i also looked out for Rochdale (still do) as they were always finishing bottom-ish. Then i was taken to a football game in 1980 and have ever since then been a Gashead til i die. |
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Post by eppinggas on Nov 28, 2022 23:13:41 GMT
I recommend Kevin Keegan's book 'My Life in Football: The Autobiography' - a great read about one of my childhood heroes KK. Just finished the book and have to say there is a lot of stuff on our very own Mr Joey Barton. KK was his manager at both Newcastle and Manchester City, he doesn't mince his words or feelings about JB. Just looking at football books for Christmas presents and saw this comment. What does KK say about Barton? Cheers, Epping. |
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bluetornados
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Post by bluetornados on Nov 29, 2022 14:58:46 GMT
I recommend Kevin Keegan's book 'My Life in Football: The Autobiography' - a great read about one of my childhood heroes KK. Just finished the book and have to say there is a lot of stuff on our very own Mr Joey Barton. KK was his manager at both Newcastle and Manchester City, he doesn't mince his words or feelings about JB. Just looking at football books for Christmas presents and saw this comment. What does KK say about Barton? Cheers, Epping. He goes into detail about the cigarette incident he went to prison for, how he would not listen to orders from KK. His over zealous x-rated challenges, punch ups, scuffles with players and much more. |
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