irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 22, 2016 0:39:45 GMT
Anyone any views on our performances so far in India?
Two Tests in and I think we've done creditably on what is without doubt our toughest looking away tour. We've hung in there without ever really looking like we were likely to turn a game decisively in our favour - save a brief moment of India panic on the final day of the 1st Test. It certainly hasn't been the annihilation that was predicted so far - partly I think because India are always quite conservative and like to put on a batting show for their TV audience so tend to prepare quite dead wickets rather than the raging Bunsens that Bangladesh laid on for us. Having said that we've held up better than expected but still really clinging on against the spin. Hameed looks the business but Duckett has done little to convince me he's ever going to be anything more than a one day specialist (strange role he's being asked to play though - little evidence in his career of being a spin specialist yet asked to bat at 4, if our options are that limited I don't know why Bell isn't out there really). Bowling wise we've looked OK - the spinners have battled hard but obviously struggled to match India. Nice to see Rashid finally get something that looks a little bit like a moment in the sun. Also, we were always bound to get pegged by Kohli at some point - the guy is too good for his crap record against England to continue to stand up, especially in home conditions. I still think we will lose comfortably overall but I'm confident we will put up a decent fight, which I wasn't after the Bangladesh series at all.
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Nov 23, 2016 13:21:21 GMT
Really impressed with both Hameed's temperament and technique. I also like the balance of the side. I think Moeen is one of the 6 best batsmen in the Country and he has earned a run at 5. This would also give us the opportunity to keep 6 picking bowlers even in home series. Rashid is developing and the number of all-rounders we have allows us to pick a player who let's face it is a bit of a luxury.
Ansari on the other hand was an odd pick. I don't see that he has had any real experience of winning matches on turning pitches. He has never operated as the primary spinner. He's basically a batsman who bowls a bit of non turning slow left arm. I know there were reservations about Leach and I know the selectors are terrified of another Kerrigan situation but he is someone who has performed on turning pitches and has won Somerset matches. I think we're in danger of picking bits and pieces cricketers.
I think they should have changed the touring party after the Bangladesh series as soon as it became obvious that Ballance couldn't continue in the side. We've not got another middle order batsman in the squad and it was pretty clear after watching Duckett against the spinners in Bangladesh that he needs o work on his technique against spin.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 23, 2016 17:30:51 GMT
Really impressed with both Hameed's temperament and technique. I also like the balance of the side. I think Moeen is one of the 6 best batsmen in the Country and he has earned a run at 5. This would also give us the opportunity to keep 6 picking bowlers even in home series. Rashid is developing and the number of all-rounders we have allows us to pick a player who let's face it is a bit of a luxury. Ansari on the other hand was an odd pick. I don't see that he has had any real experience of winning matches on turning pitches. He has never operated as the primary spinner. He's basically a batsman who bowls a bit of non turning slow left arm. I know there were reservations about Leach and I know the selectors are terrified of another Kerrigan situation but he is someone who has performed on turning pitches and has won Somerset matches. I think we're in danger of picking bits and pieces cricketers. I think they should have changed the touring party after the Bangladesh series as soon as it became obvious that Ballance couldn't continue in the side. We've not got another middle order batsman in the squad and it was pretty clear after watching Duckett against the spinners in Bangladesh that he needs o work on his technique against spin. I think you're right on the need to replace Ballance - they may be a bit too fixated on the left-hand/right-hand balance of the side. I'm not necessarily Ian Bell's biggest fan but if we're at the point where Duckett (an inexperienced, naturally aggressive opening batsman) is batting 4 then there's a really strong case for him to be playing in this series.
On Leach - make of this what you will (nonsense scurrilous gossip that it may well be) but I heard from 'sources' that England selectors asked Somerset about Leach and were told that they were concerned he was not mature enough to get through a long tour of Asia. Now I don't know if that is an attitude/behaviour thing or a fitness matter but the person I was speaking to about this was strongly implying that it was Somerset themselves who strongly advised England against selecting him......Maybe Wareham can put me right on this.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 24, 2016 21:44:35 GMT
Overall so far I have been quite impressed by England in India. (Bangladesh different matter) The plus points have been Cook continuing to be an outstanding opener, Hameed has made a good start as partner for Cook and Stokes and Bairstow have batted well. Anderson had a good comeback and Broad bowled well. But there are some worries about the balance of the team. Rashid has done well and I thought Moeen was picked on by Michael Vaughan. I question whether Ansari is good enough yet to play test cricket. That he didn't bowl in India's second innings is a worry. I don't think he was injured. its very rare, though not so much in India, for 3 spinners to play. I just don't think the third spinner bowls that much if the other two are bowling. But in truth our spinners just aren't as good yet as the Indian spinners. Ashwin was a class act and put all our batsmen under pressure. To have 5 fielders surrounding the bat put all our batsmen under great pressure and our defensive approach just encouraged them. Duckett looks lost against the spinners and needs to be rested and the plan to play Buttler as a batsman looks sensible in the circumstances. But the biggest worry is how much depends on the top 3 because when Cook and Root are out we seem to collapse. I know they are good but the rest have to step up. In the England second innings it was good to see Cook and Hameed really look solid but because they were so cautious it meant that Kohli could place an attacking field knowing the openers were not going to risk hitting to parts of the field where there were no fielders. Another 50/60 runs would have had the Indians worried. It's a bit of an unfair criticism I know, but being so cautious meant that they dug themselves into a hole and when Hameed and Cook went in the last 15 minutes the result wasn't in question. If the remaining tests can be competitive then that will be good. It looks like batsmen at 1,2 and 3 are picked. We have 2 fast bowlers from Anderson, Broad and Woakes which together with Stokes gives a good pace attack. The problem being if Woakes is left out then out we have a very long tail. I think batsmen at 4 and 5 will be the weakest part of the team. Moeen isn't a number 5 IMO but at 7 and even 6 he is very good. I guess if nothing else but Hameed's place at number 2 comes out of the tour then it would still be positive. A greater mental toughness is needed and a bit of luck and winning the toss would be good!
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 24, 2016 22:16:00 GMT
On the point against Leach Irish you may be right. I'm not in the know but during the last few matches of the season the crowd at Somerset felt that Leach shouldn't go on the main tour but the A tour which he is. The thinking was with Rashid, Moeen and either Ansari or Batty Jack would only be the water carrier at most and would be better on the A tour. I suspect that the right choice was made and Leach wasn't ready for the main tour. At Somerset Jack L is surrounded by supporters who gee him on, encourage him and he's confident. And don't underestimate the impact Chris Rogers had on him. Rogers really helped him, made him the main man and Jack L responded well. Going into the England team without those supports and where he will be expected to produce would have been a step too far. Jack L, IMO, is almost too nice at the moment to fight for a place in that team. With a few Surrey players including two spinners in the squad I wonder how comfortable he would have felt. Somerset and Surrey have had several run ins over the past two seasons and Jack L would be without his Somerset support. Give him time and another season and he may be ready. Alistair Cook is a good man and I would imagine the kind of captain Jack L would do well under but he still has a hardness that makes him demand quite rightly as England captain. I am sure Somerset are also aware of the disaster poor Mark Lathwell faced 20 years ago when he was selected against Australia far too early and the poor guy never recovered, retiring at about 25. And as Jackthegas said, let's avoid a Simon Kerrigan situation. Personally if, and I mean if, Somerset did make that recommendation then I am glad someone is looking at the bigger picture. Kerrigan 2 years ago, Robson from Middlesex and possibly Duckett are all players that look as if they are not ready for test cricket and their selections have occurred in an age when selections are far more measured and usually correct. In the 90s and before when we were poor some selections were awful but now they are far better and the process appears to be much stronger. Afraid it doesn't shine any light on what you heard Irish but overall I and lots of people I sit with wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 25, 2016 16:48:13 GMT
On the point against Leach Irish you may be right. I'm not in the know but during the last few matches of the season the crowd at Somerset felt that Leach shouldn't go on the main tour but the A tour which he is. The thinking was with Rashid, Moeen and either Ansari or Batty Jack would only be the water carrier at most and would be better on the A tour. I suspect that the right choice was made and Leach wasn't ready for the main tour. At Somerset Jack L is surrounded by supporters who gee him on, encourage him and he's confident. And don't underestimate the impact Chris Rogers had on him. Rogers really helped him, made him the main man and Jack L responded well. Going into the England team without those supports and where he will be expected to produce would have been a step too far. Jack L, IMO, is almost too nice at the moment to fight for a place in that team. With a few Surrey players including two spinners in the squad I wonder how comfortable he would have felt. Somerset and Surrey have had several run ins over the past two seasons and Jack L would be without his Somerset support. Give him time and another season and he may be ready. Alistair Cook is a good man and I would imagine the kind of captain Jack L would do well under but he still has a hardness that makes him demand quite rightly as England captain. I am sure Somerset are also aware of the disaster poor Mark Lathwell faced 20 years ago when he was selected against Australia far too early and the poor guy never recovered, retiring at about 25. And as Jackthegas said, let's avoid a Simon Kerrigan situation. Personally if, and I mean if, Somerset did make that recommendation then I am glad someone is looking at the bigger picture. Kerrigan 2 years ago, Robson from Middlesex and possibly Duckett are all players that look as if they are not ready for test cricket and their selections have occurred in an age when selections are far more measured and usually correct. In the 90s and before when we were poor some selections were awful but now they are far better and the process appears to be much stronger. Afraid it doesn't shine any light on what you heard Irish but overall I and lots of people I sit with wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. Makes sense - it is interesting that Somerset supporters would be happy with Leach going on an A Tour too. County fans are normally only too keen to advocate their own players elevation to the England side. But with spinners I think we all worry about 'the spell' being broken. Given the issues that effected Lathwell, and subsequently Trescothick, Somerset may well be more sensitive than other counties to off field considerations related to support and context. On the one hand India represents a massive opportunity for a spinner - on the other hand prolonged exposure to high class Indian batting against spin could damage fledgling confidence. Despite all his success, he has only really established himself this season so I can see why Somerset may want to protect him a bit still as he should have his best days ahead of him. On the other points - the pace of Cook and Hameed as a partnership could be an issue and I think is the reason that England went with Duckett before trying Hameed. They are both rock solid opening batsmen but can be tied down. Hameed is getting a baptism of fire and what is impressive is the way he is playing and adapting to the spin barrage - that can only stand him in good stead for the future. I don't think he deserves to be properly judged until he's had a chance to play an English summer but the early signs are promising. I feel that Moeen could work at 5, but not with Duckett batting at 4. If you had a more balanced lineup, with someone who had more sticking power coming in at 4 then that would be fine. The problem is that we end up 60-3 too often and Moeen striding out and that isn't really what you want. 150-3 is another matter.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 25, 2016 19:33:26 GMT
Yes. The last point is important. I think Moeen at 5 is not the best, it could work out alright but unfortunately Duckett has been out very quickly so Moeen is coming in far too early. As you say at 150 it's ok, not at 60. With Cook and Hameed it's important to be solid but last week even bad balls were being flat batted back to the bowlers. But the partnership looks good. Win the toss for this match and it's a completely different context setting out your stall from needing 405 to save it. All the signs are good for him and at 19 he will only get better all things being well. The more I look at it the better it gets. Our big problems appear to be the lack of a solid batsman at number 4 and perhaps a number 5. Other areas of the team look ok. By comparison Australia look very poor and the South African batsmen don't seem much better. India do well in India but are poor tourists. Perhaps test playing countries are becoming closer, with the exception of the West Indies!
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 25, 2016 22:20:09 GMT
Another interesting point has been the use of the review system. I think it's the first time it's been used in India. India have been against using it but it looks like they have had the advantage of the reviews but I may be wrong there. I think they have usually used their reviews before England have and that might be due to being more confident. England have appeared more wary of using an appeal and I seem to think had they appealed at least 2 (I think Root was given out when he wasn't and another I can't recall who) they would have won them. I think it's interesting because it could have a big impact in the final tests.
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Nov 25, 2016 23:04:58 GMT
On the other points - the pace of Cook and Hameed as a partnership could be an issue and I think is the reason that England went with Duckett before trying Hameed. They are both rock solid opening batsmen but can be tied down. Hameed is getting a baptism of fire and what is impressive is the way he is playing and adapting to the spin barrage - that can only stand him in good stead for the future. The thing that impressed me most with Hameed was his ability to rotate the strike. Without exception, all of the post Strauss openers have blocked it or whacked it. Fine in County cricket where you get enough bad balls to score quickly but it's left even fluent openers like Hales and Lyth struggling for tempo in test cricket. I think Cook and Hameed did the right thing second time round. First innings was the killer.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 28, 2016 0:17:38 GMT
Yes, first innings was the killer and imy comment about slow scoring wasn't meant as a big criticism and had they managed to get through to the end they would have received, quite rightly, even more praise. But they didn't and perhaps they were unlucky not to do so. My point was that by being so negative the scoring rate almost stopped completely and it passed the initiative to Kohli. They had a mixed attack at the time, spinner and fast medium and the batsmen understandably were looking at the clock with an hour to go. Against Ashwin there were 5 fielders around the bat and for a 19 year old the pressure must have been enormous. Bowlers were bowling well but they knew the batsmen were making no attempt to score and at 80 odd without loss England had wrested back some initiative only to give it back to India. IMO! But you were correct, the first innings was the reason for the defeat. This current test looks a bit closer hopefully.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 28, 2016 18:07:21 GMT
Yes, first innings was the killer and imy comment about slow scoring wasn't meant as a big criticism and had they managed to get through to the end they would have received, quite rightly, even more praise. But they didn't and perhaps they were unlucky not to do so. My point was that by being so negative the scoring rate almost stopped completely and it passed the initiative to Kohli. They had a mixed attack at the time, spinner and fast medium and the batsmen understandably were looking at the clock with an hour to go. Against Ashwin there were 5 fielders around the bat and for a 19 year old the pressure must have been enormous. Bowlers were bowling well but they knew the batsmen were making no attempt to score and at 80 odd without loss England had wrested back some initiative only to give it back to India. IMO! But you were correct, the first innings was the reason for the defeat. This current test looks a bit closer hopefully. Well it was until today.... Our worst day of the series so far by a long chalk. But what did for us was the tail wag by India as much as our batting collapse. When we look back on this series (which looks to be drifting towards a defeat) then this will be the one that hurts. You win the toss on a batting friendly track and deny the Indians spinners final dibs on the wicket. Then you post up a below par score but bowl yourself back into the match only to let them off the hook. I feel the scoreboard pressure is probably as responsible for our predicament in the 2nd innings than anything else. Huge pressure on the batsmen - they know they have to bat for a long time and India can just pile men round the bat to make it tougher. We're not close enough to be able to hit out of this and one mistake.....Tough spot to bat in espeically for our naturally aggressive lineup.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 28, 2016 19:10:59 GMT
Well today India did to us what we have been doing to lots of others, scoring lots of runs in the latter part of the innings. To go from 204-6 to 417 all out will be the match winning part of the match. Moeen is a great number 7 or acceptable number 6. I don't think he's a number 5 and he is definitely not a number 4. (I know he came in at 3 in this innings but that was due to illness). He may bat there for Worcestershire but England and test cricket is a different proposition. And I think that at the moment the lack of a dependable number 4 is making the captain and coach look to play players where they are not comfortable. Watching it today I thought the England players looked a bit demoralised in the field as the 7th and 8th wicket partnerships grew and they are tired. Cook doesn't usually drop the chance he did near the end and it was generally a bit sloppy. But having said that there were lots of plus points. Rashid bowled well as did Stokes and they kept going so well done to them. Stokes increasingly looks to be a world class performer with bat and ball and that looks good for the future. We will lose this match and the series but there are enough positives to be fairly confident about this team. Most departments look ok. I know the spinners have come in for criticism but Rashid and Moeen have done well enough to be good in all conditions with the exception of India. The truth is Indias spinners are just better. Fast bowlers and batsmen are about OK although we miss a number 4. And Root is still there and he always has a 150 in him, hopefully! 2 things have struck me watching today. I've thought how much England are relying on Cook and Root. Yet India are even more reliable on Kohli. Take his runs away and they would probably not be winning this series. He is a very good player and I'm sure England must be aware of his weaknesses if he has any. It would be interesting to see how India cope with him failing. Everything, batting, fielding and leading depends upon him. Secondly the use of the review system seems to have gone Indias way. I have no problem with that but had this series been the same as others with no review system I think the results might have been closer.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 30, 2016 18:26:45 GMT
Good to see Keaton Jennings called up as replacement for Hameed. Apart from Hameed (and of course Marcus Trescothick) Jennings is probably the best opener to call on based on last season. Hope he does well. I would think he will play if they can get him out asap. Dawson seems like a call up for the one day series to come but he would be a good third spinner in the tests, if they play a third one, above Batty. He bats much better than Batty and would strengthen the batting and we need that at this moment. Dawson is an interesting choice, whenever I've seen him at Taunton he bowls very close to the wicket, similar to Ashwin in the last test.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Dec 7, 2016 20:16:31 GMT
Really impressed with both Hameed's temperament and technique. I also like the balance of the side. I think Moeen is one of the 6 best batsmen in the Country and he has earned a run at 5. This would also give us the opportunity to keep 6 picking bowlers even in home series. Rashid is developing and the number of all-rounders we have allows us to pick a player who let's face it is a bit of a luxury. Ansari on the other hand was an odd pick. I don't see that he has had any real experience of winning matches on turning pitches. He has never operated as the primary spinner. He's basically a batsman who bowls a bit of non turning slow left arm. I know there were reservations about Leach and I know the selectors are terrified of another Kerrigan situation but he is someone who has performed on turning pitches and has won Somerset matches. I think we're in danger of picking bits and pieces cricketers. I think they should have changed the touring party after the Bangladesh series as soon as it became obvious that Ballance couldn't continue in the side. We've not got another middle order batsman in the squad and it was pretty clear after watching Duckett against the spinners in Bangladesh that he needs o work on his technique against spin. I think you're right on the need to replace Ballance - they may be a bit too fixated on the left-hand/right-hand balance of the side. I'm not necessarily Ian Bell's biggest fan but if we're at the point where Duckett (an inexperienced, naturally aggressive opening batsman) is batting 4 then there's a really strong case for him to be playing in this series.
On Leach - make of this what you will (nonsense scurrilous gossip that it may well be) but I heard from 'sources' that England selectors asked Somerset about Leach and were told that they were concerned he was not mature enough to get through a long tour of Asia. Now I don't know if that is an attitude/behaviour thing or a fitness matter but the person I was speaking to about this was strongly implying that it was Somerset themselves who strongly advised England against selecting him......Maybe Wareham can put me right on this.
On this point Irish, I was in Taunton today and the lead story in the sports section of the Somerset County Gazette was Matt Maynard saying that Jack Leach should have been chosen instead of Liam Dawson to replace Ansari. He quoted all the statistics about JLs 65 wickets compared to the 20 Dawson got and made the point that England need to bowl teams out by getting 20 wickets and that JL was the man to do that. He said he should have gone originally and even more so now. First time I've seen that view expressed by Somerset. Whilst not conclusive seems to go against the idea that Somerset advised the ECB that he shouldn't go to India. Looking forward to tonight's/ tomorrow's test match, be interested to see how Keaton Jennings gets on, good luck to him.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Dec 8, 2016 11:31:03 GMT
And Keaton Jennings did very, very well. Without putting too much pressure on young men, although we will probably lose the series, to have found two young batsmen in Hameed and Jennings could prove to be a very good series in the long term. It could allow Root to fill the No. 4 spot which will give us a much better balance. We will see.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Dec 8, 2016 13:08:20 GMT
I think you're right on the need to replace Ballance - they may be a bit too fixated on the left-hand/right-hand balance of the side. I'm not necessarily Ian Bell's biggest fan but if we're at the point where Duckett (an inexperienced, naturally aggressive opening batsman) is batting 4 then there's a really strong case for him to be playing in this series.
On Leach - make of this what you will (nonsense scurrilous gossip that it may well be) but I heard from 'sources' that England selectors asked Somerset about Leach and were told that they were concerned he was not mature enough to get through a long tour of Asia. Now I don't know if that is an attitude/behaviour thing or a fitness matter but the person I was speaking to about this was strongly implying that it was Somerset themselves who strongly advised England against selecting him......Maybe Wareham can put me right on this.
On this point Irish, I was in Taunton today and the lead story in the sports section of the Somerset County Gazette was Matt Maynard saying that Jack Leach should have been chosen instead of Liam Dawson to replace Ansari. He quoted all the statistics about JLs 65 wickets compared to the 20 Dawson got and made the point that England need to bowl teams out by getting 20 wickets and that JL was the man to do that. He said he should have gone originally and even more so now. First time I've seen that view expressed by Somerset. Whilst not conclusive seems to go against the idea that Somerset advised the ECB that he shouldn't go to India. Looking forward to tonight's/ tomorrow's test match, be interested to see how Keaton Jennings gets on, good luck to him. Fair enough and it makes sense. I think England perhaps have an over obsession with the balance of the side - I've never understood why it is considered particularly important that spinners should be able to bat anymore than seamers. It all comes down to the same issue of balance but I don't feel seamers are discriminated against in selection due to batting ability than spinners are. Doesn't make much sense to me. Very promsising start by Jennings. This winter has definitely clarified some things about these young openers we have. Jennings and Hameeb look the business and should be in the side going forward - for Duckett the jury is still out. I'd have Hameed and Cook for the left-hand/right-hand partnership and Jennings at 3. Decent day for England although India will also be happy to take 5 wickets having lost the toss. The last wicket probably evens up the day - as is often the case, the first session of the 2nd day could well be the pivotal one and we need to get momentum back.
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RiversGas
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Post by RiversGas on Dec 13, 2016 0:40:54 GMT
A question for you. Many of you have said Moeen is better at either 6 or 7 but possibly OK at 5 if the score is 150 for 3. Given injury meant he had to go in at 3, would it be wiser to send in Broad at 3, 4, 5 or 6 to hold up an end, push the ball around a little, to give Moeen the 4, 5, 6 or 7 role?
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Dec 14, 2016 9:05:59 GMT
I understand the thinking behind that but I would be very surprised if it happened. It smacks too much of panic and England not knowing what to do and it's almost an admission that their batsmen don't know how to handle the Indian bowlers. And of course it would have made more sense 3/4 years ago when we didn't need to do it but Broad was a much better batsman then. He seems to have dropped a few levels in his batting since. At the moment we have to just man up and accept that the Indians are better bowlers and batsmen than us and hope that our batsmen can put up 400 in an innings and not collapse in the second innings. And I hope this stupid debate about Cook's captaincy can stop and let them get on with concentrating on their batting.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2016 12:58:46 GMT
Broad's a bona fide number 10 or 11 these days. Woakes would be a better candidate if you wanted to do it, but as Wareham says, its a shocking admission that the batsmen aren't up to the job!
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Dec 15, 2016 12:50:07 GMT
I understand the thinking behind that but I would be very surprised if it happened. It smacks too much of panic and England not knowing what to do and it's almost an admission that their batsmen don't know how to handle the Indian bowlers. And of course it would have made more sense 3/4 years ago when we didn't need to do it but Broad was a much better batsman then. He seems to have dropped a few levels in his batting since. At the moment we have to just man up and accept that the Indians are better bowlers and batsmen than us and hope that our batsmen can put up 400 in an innings and not collapse in the second innings. And I hope this stupid debate about Cook's captaincy can stop and let them get on with concentrating on their batting. Broad has never been the same since he was wacked on the head in a game -destroyed his confidence. Seems to be a nailed on tail ender these days. I think when Hameed comes back we actually have the makings of a good lineup - I only think we are 1 batsmen short but that makes a big difference because our players are so loose and similar in style. If you had a top 4 of Cook and Hameed (for the left hand/right hand combination), Jennings and Root then that has potential to be quite solid. The batsmen who come in 5-8 could hopefully bat in any order really because there's all that much between them really.
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