irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jul 15, 2016 13:16:30 GMT
Some early thoughts;
-I think I have a bit of a mancrush on Misbah Ul Haq! What a superb innings given the situation his team was in - a proper captain's knock. Those sweeps of Moeen were just tremendously high quality and his celebration of his 100 was both highly entertaining and brilliantly self-deprecating. Comea across as a genuinely nice guy who is incredibly grateful for this surprising late chance at cricket stardom he's had. Best Captain Pakistan have had since Imran too and that really matters to them. -This 3rd/4th/5th coming of Woakes has been a bit of a revelation. -First time I've really seen Ball - I really like his action, you can see what England fancy about him. -At some point Moeen surely has to come under some pressure from his place from someone. It's not that he can't take wickets - if it spins he can be effective. But England really need a spinner who can hold up an end so their seamers can rest and be rotated and he just can't do that. Rashid can't either though so I guess that's what is keeping him in the team. He's in for a tough series - it's pretty clear Pakistan are going to show him no mercy and that's definitely the right tactic. -Good performance from England witht he ball this morning; might prove the crucial passage of play in this game. -As I write England are looking pretty comfortable with their best 2 batsmen at the crease and Amir's much touted comeback is falling a bit flat. But the test will be whether, once these two fall, the middle order holds up. Going well right now though and definitely seems like Pakistan score was underpar on a very flat batting deck. Oh, and there's the wildcard of whether or not England can play Yasir Shah and whether he can be effective in English conditions.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 15, 2016 13:58:01 GMT
Yes Cook and Root look very comfortable esp with Pakistan only having 4 bowlers. Mind you it would help Pakistan if they held their catches. Cook just being missed again, this time by the wicket keeper! It has been good to see a good Pakistan innings which should make this a competitive series. I think that's what England need. I don't know that they learnt too much from the Sri Lanka series apart from Compton not being the answer. I am sure Hayles will be given the series and I like Joe Root batting at 3. It's where I think your best batsman should bat. Woakes surprised me this morning with his speed. He really has started to bowl with urgency and accuracy. I seem to remember Trescothick being not too impressed with him and thinking there were easy runs to be had from him. But he really has improved and with what appears a good attitude, he looks to have a good future in the England team as a long term replacement for Anderson when it comes. Misbah Ul Haq seems a very level headed player and is an excellent captain. In the Imran mode not the Javed Miandad mode! With all the disadvantages Pakistan face in international cricket having him at the helm must be something that helps cement the whole team together. With the domestic situation, other teams' understandable reluctance to go there, their ability to self explode on occasions and the scandals with players I doubt if any other teams have had to compete under such poor conditions yet they manage to find very good cricket players who can compete against the best. Am really looking forwards to this series, think it could be very close. The weather being relatively wet this summer should produce some result wickets.
ps Root obviously didn't read this!!
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Post by lostinspace on Jul 15, 2016 19:49:21 GMT
i think joe root has become a little too cocksure of hisself.. last couple of inning where he has got in.... he has tried to do things that are not really him and paid for it with his give away wicket, almost getting in the Peterson mold, needs to take a little breather and take stock of whats going on and not get too carried away. Today was the prime example, the pair well on top , with the bowling looking short of ideas and bang silly shot , England struggle from there on
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 15, 2016 23:30:57 GMT
It was a poor response overall but as you say Roots wicket was sloppy. The problem for England is Root and Cook are so important for England that once they are gone the middle order still looks vulnerable. Root was out and it let the Pakistani bowlers get into our middle order and we then lost 4 wickets, a couple to bad shots. It looks like there will be a result and it should be pretty close.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 17, 2016 20:38:42 GMT
The second innings was almost a copy of the first innings. Get Root and Cook out it lets the bowlers into our middle orderwhich isn't very good at the moment! Today they let a leg spinner who wasn't spinning the ball get them out. It was a disappointing effort from the batsmen because Vince, Ballance and Bairstow got into their 40s but didn't turn them into 70s or 80s which in the context of the match would probably have won it. Moeen Ali and Bairstow had awful shots to give their wickets away. And this was against a team with only 4 bowlers! For the next match I wouldn't imagine there will be many changes, if any, as these players have to be given a chance. The silver lining is that it was a exciting match and I think the series will be similar and good to watch.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2016 20:57:04 GMT
Vince, Ballance and Bairstow all got into the 40s, this was a top order failure not a middle order one.
There will be two changes at least, Stokes and Anderson in for Finn and Ball. I think Ballance has justified his recall, so I'd be surprised if he wasn't given another go.
I gave up on it and went and watched Glos, who were excellent against Essex in the T20 and won easily.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jul 18, 2016 10:34:19 GMT
The truth is we weren't miles off in the game. Misbah was ultimately the difference - the only batsman in the whole game to go on and get a big score. The worry is that Pakistan won this Test without seam attack getting much help from the pitch or looking particularly dangerous. Old Trafford and Trent Bridge will suit them better (as it will our seamers too to be fair) - this could be a very low scoring series. Anderson for Finn seems like a decent call to me but this group of selectors appear to be quite conservative so they may well stick with Finn and drop Ball. I'd favour Stokes for Vince I think and I'd also be tempted to swtich in Rashid for Moeen who in a previous era would have been dropped for his appalling shot yesterday although he bowled quite well in the 2nd innings. I don't actually think England played all that badly - Pakistan just played very very well and Yasir looks like he may be the next great spin bowler.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 18, 2016 11:34:53 GMT
Strongest batters at 1 and 3 and I still think,it was a middle order failure. If they don't do it, the confidence drains out of the side. Vince got in but never looked assured. Bairstow is very good and after battling through the afternoon you could see the disappointment in the stroke he gave his wicket away. As you say Irish, little between the teams so it should be a good series and going to Old Trafford and Trent Bridge on what will be result wickets leaves a lot to play for still. Anderson will come in I would think but because it was close I hope the changes are minimal. It will be interesting with Anderson because I think he thought he was fit, Bayliss and Cook thought he was fit and it seems as if the selectors overruled them which is very strange. Usually it is left to the captain to choose team from the squad. However, I don't think we should be risking players following an injury, it is good to see players have a chance. As Cook said the loss was exactly the difference between the two first innings. Had Cook gone on to a century then the result could have been different. But hey that's cricket and all sport.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jul 18, 2016 11:52:32 GMT
Strongest batters at 1 and 3 and I still think,it was a middle order failure. If they don't do it, the confidence drains out of the side. Vince got in but never looked assured. Bairstow is very good and after battling through the afternoon you could see the disappointment in the stroke he gave his wicket away. As you say Irish, little between the teams so it should be a good series and going to Old Trafford and Trent Bridge on what will be result wickets leaves a lot to play for still. Anderson will come in I would think but because it was close I hope the changes are minimal. It will be interesting with Anderson because I think he thought he was fit, Bayliss and Cook thought he was fit and it seems as if the selectors overruled them which is very strange. Usually it is left to the captain to choose team from the squad. However, I don't think we should be risking players following an injury, it is good to see players have a chance. As Cook said the loss was exactly the difference between the two first innings. Had Cook gone on to a century then the result could have been different. But hey that's cricket and all sport. I agree that it was a middle order failure - one of them has to get a substantial score across the 2 innings, that is what they are there for ultimately.
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Jul 19, 2016 11:21:24 GMT
The whole batting unit was a let down. The top order have all got to 70 or 80 fairly consistently this summer but I can't remember a match winning score from any of them. The middle order lacks experience and with that consistency. They all look like they have technical deficiencies too. Vince plays across the line when it's straight and his foot goes down the pitch rather than to the ball when it's full and wide. Ballance is the same player he was last summer and Bairstow clearly finds it hard against spin (though to his credit he toughed it out second time around).
I don't know what the answer is but I think Ballance at 5 was a step in the right direction. We need some solidity and steel to bat with the dashers. I think we need a bit of experience and I wouldn't completely rule out bringing Bell back at 5. He has a great record in the lower middle order and only ended up losing his place whenever he batted up the order. Failing that maybe an old county pro like Hildrith wouldn't be a bad idea. Someone who knows his game inside out. Players like Rodgers and Voges made a real difference to Australia, although they both had more experience of playing overseas.
I too would pick Rashid. We have 4 seamers and so the need for a holding spinner is less important and I think Rashid would be more of a threat in this series as they have a lot of right handers. Moeen seems to have become obsessed with bowlin as quick as he can. I think it was Ian Bell who told he he needed to bowl quicker to succeed in tests but I think it's too flat and he doesn't get the ball above the batsmans eyeline enough.
Easy to be wise after the event but I've thought Woakes has been on the cusp of a breakthrough for a few years. I saw him bowl really well in T20 finals day the year before last and he handled the occasion really well. He never seemed to have much luck when he played for England but I always thought a run of 4 or 5 tests at the right time would do him the world of good.
Final point, our record on the relatively docile London pitches is dreadful. This does not bode well for next winter.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 19, 2016 12:07:20 GMT
I don't think adding Rashid and Stokes to the squad is far off the mark. I would be surprised if Bell was to return because I just feel his time has gone.it was interesting listening to Michael Vaughan earlier on this summer talking about the number 5 position. He mentioned everyone in county cricket but not James Hildreth! Again I think his time has gone and it was felt he was just below true test standard which as a Somerset CCC member I could argue but am also glad because without Mr. Reliable over the past 5 years we would have been relegated. I think Ballance should be given a chance, last year against Australia he was played at 3 I think when he was clearly not a number 3 so I feel he needs to be given a chance at his best position. With the return of Anderson the next match should be very close. I think both teams are fairly equal and with Old Trafford and Trent Bridge likely to be result pitches it should be close.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 23, 2016 21:19:04 GMT
With Root and Cook getting centuries and Woakes getting 3 wickets it just shows how important they are to England. It's good to see Woakes taking his chance and is a genuine all-rounder. It was good to see the fact that Root appears to have learnt his lesson from the first test and that all the team played Yasir so much better than at Lords. Although the pitch was better here it was, IMO, more their attitude and approach that made the difference. Should be a good day tomorrow.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jul 25, 2016 15:38:16 GMT
The whole batting unit was a let down. The top order have all got to 70 or 80 fairly consistently this summer but I can't remember a match winning score from any of them. The middle order lacks experience and with that consistency. They all look like they have technical deficiencies too. Vince plays across the line when it's straight and his foot goes down the pitch rather than to the ball when it's full and wide. Ballance is the same player he was last summer and Bairstow clearly finds it hard against spin (though to his credit he toughed it out second time around). I don't know what the answer is but I think Ballance at 5 was a step in the right direction. We need some solidity and steel to bat with the dashers. I think we need a bit of experience and I wouldn't completely rule out bringing Bell back at 5. He has a great record in the lower middle order and only ended up losing his place whenever he batted up the order. Failing that maybe an old county pro like Hildrith wouldn't be a bad idea. Someone who knows his game inside out. Players like Rodgers and Voges made a real difference to Australia, although they both had more experience of playing overseas. I too would pick Rashid. We have 4 seamers and so the need for a holding spinner is less important and I think Rashid would be more of a threat in this series as they have a lot of right handers. Moeen seems to have become obsessed with bowlin as quick as he can. I think it was Ian Bell who told he he needed to bowl quicker to succeed in tests but I think it's too flat and he doesn't get the ball above the batsmans eyeline enough. Easy to be wise after the event but I've thought Woakes has been on the cusp of a breakthrough for a few years. I saw him bowl really well in T20 finals day the year before last and he handled the occasion really well. He never seemed to have much luck when he played for England but I always thought a run of 4 or 5 tests at the right time would do him the world of good. Final point, our record on the relatively docile London pitches is dreadful. This does not bode well for next winter. Yes - you were talking about Woakes for most of last season and I was quite sceptical - looks like you were bang on, this has been his summer so far really. I was at Old Trafford on Friday and it was very good batting from England. Obviously it was a fantastic toss to win but there was a certain grim determination about Cook and Root - they seemed to be playing very much within themselves. I mean clearly Cook always does that but Root had the air of a man serving penance after his dismissals in the previous test. I've been fortunate to see some massive innings live before and I think you can pick up the vibe quite early on. It's something like form+utter determination. Root didn't bring his baklift past his shoulder until he'd passed 70 and didn't play a cross batted shot until into his 80's (when he swept Azhar Ali). It wasn't particularly flamboyant or as eye catching but it was as close to flawless as you will see. Cook's hundred at the other end looked fairly standard in comparison. I think it exposed the weakness of Pakistan in not having an extra bowling option. In the long run I think our versatility could win us this series as much as anything else. Yasir was massively overbowled - it can't be good that England's batsmen a)managed to get on top of him and b)were given a whole day of facing him to feel more comfortable with picking his variations. We should be able to take the momentum from this game to Trent Bridge and really put them under pressure.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 25, 2016 18:08:31 GMT
I might be proved wrong but unless the pitch is giving lots of help, I think Yasir will not be the threat he was in the first test. At Lords he bambooozled the batsmen who had visions of Warne and he got the wickets without spinning it much. For this test the England were given intense nets against similar bowling and given ways to play it. This test they didn't look like rabbits in headlights. If the pitch helps and spins then he will be a problem but I think the England players have done well. Losing Ben Stokes will be a loss but gives the chance to another player, I presume a bowler. Woakes and Moeen Ali are genuine all rounders so I would imagine Jake Ball to come back in.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2016 22:18:52 GMT
Who bowls legspin at them in the nets? I'd pick a bowler in place of Stokes, and I think Ball deserves another crack ahead of Finn, who needs to go away and find some form.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jul 26, 2016 13:39:42 GMT
Who bowls legspin at them in the nets? I'd pick a bowler in place of Stokes, and I think Ball deserves another crack ahead of Finn, who needs to go away and find some form. You'd assume Rashid does although apparently they have some kind of machine (called Merlin) for replicating the actions of opposing bowlers more prescisely. Rashid could well come in for the Oval Test but I think it's unlikely he'll play at Trent Bridge. England are usually quite conservative with these things so we'll probably just have Ball coming in for Stokes although I think there's a case for doing what you suggest. People seem to forget that Rashid can bat - I'm not saying he's an international top 6 but he can easily bat in the top 8. At some point it's going to be sink or swim time for Moeen - I honestly think they should give him a shot in Vince's spot for a series or so. He is after all supposed to be primarily a middle order batsmen and that is what he was originally selected to do. If he doesn't do it then you know that in the long run he's probably ever going to be our backup spin option. If he's a success then what a bonus that would potentially be.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 14:06:47 GMT
The Test is at Edgbaston rather than Trent Bridge. I think that makes Radish a little more likely?
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jul 26, 2016 14:23:02 GMT
The Test is at Edgbaston rather than Trent Bridge. I think that makes Radish a little more likely? Oh right you are - I was absolutely certain it was at Trent Bridge. Wonder how I managed to get that so lodged in my head. Yeah, I suppose that does make it marginally more likely they go with Rashid - still very much doubt they will though, it just doesn't seem to be in their nature to be that innovative. I think it's fair to say that a side who can't bring itself to enforce the follow on when it has just bowled the opposition out for less than 200 in 63 Overs and has a nearly 400 run lead is unlikely to pick an inexperienced leggy at a gruond that is, at best, 'neutral' for spinners. I certainly think they should though.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 27, 2016 22:13:01 GMT
Who bowls legspin at them in the nets? I'd pick a bowler in place of Stokes, and I think Ball deserves another crack ahead of Finn, who needs to go away and find some form. Bowling machine or Rashid. They used to bring in club cricketers back along, don't know if they still do. But they will have brought people in to replicate as close as possible Yasir. Agree Ball deserves another chance, not sure that Finn is even best choice for Middlesex at the moment!
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 27, 2016 22:27:47 GMT
The Test is at Edgbaston rather than Trent Bridge. I think that makes Radish a little more likely? Oh right you are - I was absolutely certain it was at Trent Bridge. Wonder how I managed to get that so lodged in my head. Yeah, I suppose that does make it marginally more likely they go with Rashid - still very much doubt they will though, it just doesn't seem to be in their nature to be that innovative. I think it's fair to say that a side who can't bring itself to enforce the follow on when it has just bowled the opposition out for less than 200 in 63 Overs and has a nearly 400 run lead is unlikely to pick an inexperienced leggy at a gruond that is, at best, 'neutral' for spinners. I certainly think they should though. I was sure it was Trent Bridge as well! The follow on one is a strange one, I wasn't surprised they didn't do it and I thought the decision was ok. Both Anderson and Stokes were just back from injury so they didn't want to rusk over bowling them, the weather was ok and such was their superiority that it really didn't matter. And they gave the crowd an entertaining evening and early morning. In the end Stokes got injured anyway. Rashid hasn't let England down yet so it would be good to give him a go but I suspect it might be the Oval before that happens so I think it will be Ball rather than anyone else.
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