irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Sept 23, 2016 18:47:28 GMT
didn't roland jones play for Somerset at one time ? I don't think so unless it was on loan. Are you confusing him with Stefan Jones? I think there may also have been another Jones who was a young fast bowler that didn't quite make it at Taunton a few years ago too. |
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Sept 24, 2016 7:45:05 GMT
didn't roland jones play for Somerset at one time ? No, that was Stefan Jones. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 9:05:30 GMT
Although I felt the declaration was poorly timed (I was wrong), I think all the fuss about the contrived result is a bit contrived. I presume it comes from people who aren't really used to how County Championship cricket works, because its pretty common in my limited experience!
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Sept 24, 2016 9:43:58 GMT
Don't disagree with anything people have posted. But listening to it yesterday when the final session was unraveling I had a horrible foreboding of what was about to happen. And when it did I was just angry. For the what it's worth Jackthegas Yorkshire were never going to block even if they had no chance, according to Gale they had agreed that they would keep going for the runs whatever. Astaf, yes it was an outrageous declaration (IMO) but what made it to even more outrageous was that Gale had obviously agreed to go for it whatever, there would be no blocking, which was why it was such a generous declaration. Irish, have to disagree that it was ever going for Somerset, Gale made a big point that he had given his word that Yorks would keep going for it so it was always going to be either Yorks or Middx.
In other words I don't think we ever had a chance of the draw happening and Somerset were never going to win it. Gale and Franklin had obviously agreed that the winner would come from them. From what has been reported on cricinfo and BBC the declaration was a long negotiation. I guess what upsets us Somerset fans is the fact that the first three days were pointless. It only started when Middx equalled Yorks before lunch then it became a 40 over game. What did Somerset was winning so easily in 3 days, it gave them time to work out a declaration. I thought it fishy in the morning when Middx were slow and commentators were saying that there seemed to be no plan. In fact there was one and it was a very clever one, if Middx had scored too quickly they might have has too many and would have had to give Yorks more time to get it.
After a whole season of closely faught and contested action I just feel the integrity of the competition was undermined by what happened at the end. It came down to a negotiated declaration that gave no respect to cricket or what had taken place before. And I bet if Rovers had been denied promotion through similar circumstances we would all be bl**** angry.
But, Middx have been the best team throughout the season. Yorkshire came to the party later and we came even later, so fair do to them and they were unbeaten so in a sense they are deserving champions. And to get a hat trick, well done Middx. (Said through gritted teeth!)
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Sept 25, 2016 0:41:12 GMT
Don't disagree with anything people have posted. But listening to it yesterday when the final session was unraveling I had a horrible foreboding of what was about to happen. And when it did I was just angry. For the what it's worth Jackthegas Yorkshire were never going to block even if they had no chance, according to Gale they had agreed that they would keep going for the runs whatever. Astaf, yes it was an outrageous declaration (IMO) but what made it to even more outrageous was that Gale had obviously agreed to go for it whatever, there would be no blocking, which was why it was such a generous declaration. Irish, have to disagree that it was ever going for Somerset, Gale made a big point that he had given his word that Yorks would keep going for it so it was always going to be either Yorks or Middx. In other words I don't think we ever had a chance of the draw happening and Somerset were never going to win it. Gale and Franklin had obviously agreed that the winner would come from them. From what has been reported on cricinfo and BBC the declaration was a long negotiation. I guess what upsets us Somerset fans is the fact that the first three days were pointless. It only started when Middx equalled Yorks before lunch then it became a 40 over game. What did Somerset was winning so easily in 3 days, it gave them time to work out a declaration. I thought it fishy in the morning when Middx were slow and commentators were saying that there seemed to be no plan. In fact there was one and it was a very clever one, if Middx had scored too quickly they might have has too many and would have had to give Yorks more time to get it. After a whole season of closely faught and contested action I just feel the integrity of the competition was undermined by what happened at the end. It came down to a negotiated declaration that gave no respect to cricket or what had taken place before. And I bet if Rovers had been denied promotion through similar circumstances we would all be bl**** angry. But, Middx have been the best team throughout the season. Yorkshire came to the party later and we came even later, so fair do to them and they were unbeaten so in a sense they are deserving champions. And to get a hat trick, well done Middx. (Said through gritted teeth!) Well I kind of felt there was briefly a chance of the draw. It wasn't that I thought Yorkshire would shut up shop - they had no incentive to do that. It was more that with 8 Overs left the run rate had crept up to over 10 an over and there were still 4/5 wickets needed. I didn't think it was inconceivable that Yorkshire could keep swinging, keep not finding the fences and not get out. It was a better chance at the draw than I thought likely when the target was originally set.
I can understand Somerset anger and frustration but I think even Maynard and Rogers said they'd have done the same thing. I suppose you can argue that Middlesex had essentially earned the right to dictate terms based on prior performances throughout the year putting them in that position. I don't think it's entirely right to say the previous 3 days hadn't mattered because if Gubbins and Compton had not batted them out of the hole the day before then there's no way they would have been in a position to dictate a finish to Yorkshire - in fact Yorks would have spent the day going for the kill and Middlesex may not have been given a sniff. So they did play their way into that position - as we said last week the contrived finish was always going to be Somerset's main achilles heal here. Might motivate them big time for next season though and they appear to have uncovered the number 1 thing you need for a consistent Championship challenge - wicket taking spinners.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Sept 25, 2016 6:40:59 GMT
As you said Maynard and Rogers would have done the same and the third wicket partnership was crucial to the match as you said. But it was the frustration of listening to it and realising that it would not be a draw. Perhaps those first three days weren't pointless but once Somerset had won convincingly on day three I thought the draw became increasingly unlikely. Apart from that last day which was frustrating I think that Middlesex winning the championship was well-deserved. They were the best team from April to September, they were unbeaten and they had some very good young batsmen and a host of fast bowlers who did the business. That they were able to leave out James Harris and Fuller shows the depth they have so well done to them. I'd like to think this will motivate them but I also know Somerset will not be serial winners but rely upon that one good year! And I dreamt that this was it!!
Still the good news was Rovers won and moved up to ninth. That's got to be good!
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Sept 25, 2016 13:19:33 GMT
As you said Maynard and Rogers would have done the same and the third wicket partnership was crucial to the match as you said. But it was the frustration of listening to it and realising that it would not be a draw. Perhaps those first three days weren't pointless but once Somerset had won convincingly on day three I thought the draw became increasingly unlikely. Apart from that last day which was frustrating I think that Middlesex winning the championship was well-deserved. They were the best team from April to September, they were unbeaten and they had some very good young batsmen and a host of fast bowlers who did the business. That they were able to leave out James Harris and Fuller shows the depth they have so well done to them. I'd like to think this will motivate them but I also know Somerset will not be serial winners but rely upon that one good year! And I dreamt that this was it!! Still the good news was Rovers won and moved up to ninth. That's got to be good! Yes - I thought that was the reason Somerset batted on for as long as they did - so that the game did not finish too early and they kept the teams at Lords in a state of uncertainty about which way to go for as long as possible. The irony is that when Yorkshire took the extra batting point they needed and then took a couple of quick wickets I thought they were going to be the ones to ease to victory. It was the Gubbins/Malan partnership that turned the tide definitively in Middlesex's favour. The dynamics all week were fascinating and frustrating in about equal measure. |
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Sept 26, 2016 11:59:38 GMT
On reflection, and I don't just mean mine but also those incredible writers on Cricinfo, the quality of cricket this season has been extremely high. I have attended all matches at Taunton and most for 2/3 days and the quality from Somerset and their opponents has been very high. Fast bowlers at Somerset always have to earn their wickets and the Durham, Lancashire bowlers in the first match, Warwickshire bowlers and Jake Ball all performed really well. Groenwald, both Overtons for us and our spinners have done equally well and for the first time in a long while the feats of the bowlers outweigh what the batsmen have achieved overall at Taunton. Some innings will remain in the memory, Rogers two centuries in the last match and his, what was in the end a match-winning innings of 59 against Warwickshire are notable as were Trescothicks knocks all season. I thought he would achieve his record century in one of the last three matches and that he failed to do so shouldn't detract from his wonderful record. I am sure he would have got it if we hadn't been chasing the championship because every time he went in we seemed to be chasing quick runs and Tres always played for the team not individual records. He will have a long time to consider that record in the months ahead and hopefully it will happen and warm all Somerset fans in April! Hildreth again produced the goods when needed and to have batted so long with a broken bone in his ankle was a heroic effort and will give all Somerset fans an even bigger excuse to support his testimonial season in 2017.
I hope the ECB will have a re-think over the 8/10 split of teams because if they are wanting English players to develop, increasing the number of matches in the much poorer 2nd Division (other people's opinions not just mine) and decreasing them in the far more competitive first division is just plain bonkers. For any other major changes that they intend I hope they will go to the members of the counties and people who go to cricket and get the views of real cricket fans, those who go and see it not just those who follow Sky or emerge from their armchairs occasionally to watch a 20/20 match. However, I am not confident that they will do that.
And finally congratulations to Middlesex, deserved winners of the county championship. I didn't like the way it happened but I've seen enough cricket and third and fourth day declarations to know it was always likely to happen this way. They were the best team overall from April to September, they were unbeaten and they finished with more points than anyone else and that usually means they are better than anyone else.
ps Thanks to everyone who has joined in with this thread over the cricket season. I have enjoyed reading all opinions and it has been good to have people prepared to spend time writing and sharing their views. There have been some really high quality posts so thank you.
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Sept 27, 2016 12:07:32 GMT
On reflection, and I don't just mean mine but also those incredible writers on Cricinfo, the quality of cricket this season has been extremely high. I have attended all matches at Taunton and most for 2/3 days and the quality from Somerset and their opponents has been very high. Fast bowlers at Somerset always have to earn their wickets and the Durham, Lancashire bowlers in the first match, Warwickshire bowlers and Jake Ball all performed really well. Groenwald, both Overtons for us and our spinners have done equally well and for the first time in a long while the feats of the bowlers outweigh what the batsmen have achieved overall at Taunton. Some innings will remain in the memory, Rogers two centuries in the last match and his, what was in the end a match-winning innings of 59 against Warwickshire are notable as were Trescothicks knocks all season. I thought he would achieve his record century in one of the last three matches and that he failed to do so shouldn't detract from his wonderful record. I am sure he would have got it if we hadn't been chasing the championship because every time he went in we seemed to be chasing quick runs and Tres always played for the team not individual records. He will have a long time to consider that record in the months ahead and hopefully it will happen and warm all Somerset fans in April! Hildreth again produced the goods when needed and to have batted so long with a broken bone in his ankle was a heroic effort and will give all Somerset fans an even bigger excuse to support his testimonial season in 2017. I hope the ECB will have a re-think over the 8/10 split of teams because if they are wanting English players to develop, increasing the number of matches in the much poorer 2nd Division (other people's opinions not just mine) and decreasing them in the far more competitive first division is just plain bonkers. For any other major changes that they intend I hope they will go to the members of the counties and people who go to cricket and get the views of real cricket fans, those who go and see it not just those who follow Sky or emerge from their armchairs occasionally to watch a 20/20 match. However, I am not confident that they will do that. And finally congratulations to Middlesex, deserved winners of the county championship. I didn't like the way it happened but I've seen enough cricket and third and fourth day declarations to know it was always likely to happen this way. They were the best team overall from April to September, they were unbeaten and they finished with more points than anyone else and that usually means they are better than anyone else. ps Thanks to everyone who has joined in with this thread over the cricket season. I have enjoyed reading all opinions and it has been good to have people prepared to spend time writing and sharing their views. There have been some really high quality posts so thank you. I agree with most that you say Wareham, just a couple of points I wanted to pick up on. The first is that I think the number of games are reducing in both divisions not just Division One. Sides in Division two won't play each side twice which will damage the integrity of the league and two down from 8 in division one will make it too hard to plan too I think. Sides can stay up when they are in transition at the moment. I think that might become too hard in future leading to short term-ism. It's a crap idea and I hope they go back to two equal divisions too. I completely agree that members need to be consulted but I also think it's really important that arm chair fans who go occasionally are canvased too. People work and going to Championship matches regularly is hard for this reason. Getting these people to attend more often is key to growing the game. Last time everyone was canvased the current set-up was agreed on and I think it's been successful. T20 attendances are up and England have improved in both formats. The quality in division 1 is also really high. What they need is to get some kind of cricket back on free to air TV. I'm not naive enough to think that we'll ever go back to pre 2005 levels of coverage but even a T20 highlights programme on a Saturday morning would be a step forward. The Championship needs more televised cricket too although that could be achieved through low budget, single camera online only coverage in conjunction with the BBC commentary. If that means losing some money through decreased broadcasting deals then so be it. The ECB have reserves of £70m anyway. I do not agree that city based T20 competitions are the way to go. Who in Bristol or Somerset is going to support a team called Cardiff and no one from my neck of the woods in Worcester is going to support Birmingham (no one from Birmingham supports Birmingham anyway)! It's a terrible idea. |
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Sept 27, 2016 12:46:12 GMT
The point about number of matches in div 2. I had forgotten so thanks for reminding me, and where you don't play your opponents home and away means that the competition, as you say, loses integrity. Members and people who actually watch Championship cricket need to be consulted because they are the ones that keep it alive. I don't disagree about canvassing armchair fans but I feel that the balance has gone awry over the years and the needs of armchair fans seem to be paramount over those who actually watch it live. Yes Jack you are right about some kind of live cricket coverage. It will be interesting to see the figures for the live 4 day match last week and a packages programme of 20/20 or even mixed with championship might be good. However when you see some of the dross churned out in daytime TV you wonder whether live championship cricket on ITV 3 or 4 or a Sky channel or even BT channel as parts of them getting live test matches might be an option. I don't know exactly but I would have thought some programme of sorts could be possible. As to what you've said about franchise 20/20 couldn't agree more. Somerset are unlikely to feature but I would imagine Bristol / Gloucs in some form might do. Somerset could be part of that but not as Bristol. My fear has always been and still is that the ECB would like to have a Division 1 of the county championship being contested by the test ground counties which are predominantly urban, larger counties. Somerset have always been a thorn to them and last season when Sussex and Worcs got relegated and Surrey coming back I think they felt they were nearer to it. The last week with Essex replacing Notts and Hants has messed that up for them. I've always felt that the ECB have not done what they really want to do re Franchise in 20/20 to get a Big Bash style competition and they have messed about with the Championship instead when it didn't need messing about with. Despite being poor in 20/20 Somerset crowds were excellent with most home matches completely full. But when we are full it's 6000, the TCB want 20000 Big Bash style and we have no venues that could do that. Interesting times ahead methinks!
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Sept 28, 2016 1:26:13 GMT
On reflection, and I don't just mean mine but also those incredible writers on Cricinfo, the quality of cricket this season has been extremely high. I have attended all matches at Taunton and most for 2/3 days and the quality from Somerset and their opponents has been very high. Fast bowlers at Somerset always have to earn their wickets and the Durham, Lancashire bowlers in the first match, Warwickshire bowlers and Jake Ball all performed really well. Groenwald, both Overtons for us and our spinners have done equally well and for the first time in a long while the feats of the bowlers outweigh what the batsmen have achieved overall at Taunton. Some innings will remain in the memory, Rogers two centuries in the last match and his, what was in the end a match-winning innings of 59 against Warwickshire are notable as were Trescothicks knocks all season. I thought he would achieve his record century in one of the last three matches and that he failed to do so shouldn't detract from his wonderful record. I am sure he would have got it if we hadn't been chasing the championship because every time he went in we seemed to be chasing quick runs and Tres always played for the team not individual records. He will have a long time to consider that record in the months ahead and hopefully it will happen and warm all Somerset fans in April! Hildreth again produced the goods when needed and to have batted so long with a broken bone in his ankle was a heroic effort and will give all Somerset fans an even bigger excuse to support his testimonial season in 2017. I hope the ECB will have a re-think over the 8/10 split of teams because if they are wanting English players to develop, increasing the number of matches in the much poorer 2nd Division (other people's opinions not just mine) and decreasing them in the far more competitive first division is just plain bonkers. For any other major changes that they intend I hope they will go to the members of the counties and people who go to cricket and get the views of real cricket fans, those who go and see it not just those who follow Sky or emerge from their armchairs occasionally to watch a 20/20 match. However, I am not confident that they will do that. And finally congratulations to Middlesex, deserved winners of the county championship. I didn't like the way it happened but I've seen enough cricket and third and fourth day declarations to know it was always likely to happen this way. They were the best team overall from April to September, they were unbeaten and they finished with more points than anyone else and that usually means they are better than anyone else. ps Thanks to everyone who has joined in with this thread over the cricket season. I have enjoyed reading all opinions and it has been good to have people prepared to spend time writing and sharing their views. There have been some really high quality posts so thank you. I agree with most that you say Wareham, just a couple of points I wanted to pick up on. The first is that I think the number of games are reducing in both divisions not just Division One. Sides in Division two won't play each side twice which will damage the integrity of the league and two down from 8 in division one will make it too hard to plan too I think. Sides can stay up when they are in transition at the moment. I think that might become too hard in future leading to short term-ism. It's a crap idea and I hope they go back to two equal divisions too. I completely agree that members need to be consulted but I also think it's really important that arm chair fans who go occasionally are canvased too. People work and going to Championship matches regularly is hard for this reason. Getting these people to attend more often is key to growing the game. Last time everyone was canvased the current set-up was agreed on and I think it's been successful. T20 attendances are up and England have improved in both formats. The quality in division 1 is also really high. What they need is to get some kind of cricket back on free to air TV. I'm not naive enough to think that we'll ever go back to pre 2005 levels of coverage but even a T20 highlights programme on a Saturday morning would be a step forward. The Championship needs more televised cricket too although that could be achieved through low budget, single camera online only coverage in conjunction with the BBC commentary. If that means losing some money through decreased broadcasting deals then so be it. The ECB have reserves of £70m anyway. I do not agree that city based T20 competitions are the way to go. Who in Bristol or Somerset is going to support a team called Cardiff and no one from my neck of the woods in Worcester is going to support Birmingham (no one from Birmingham supports Birmingham anyway)! It's a terrible idea. Agree completely with all the key points from both of you here.
It has been a vintage season in many ways. I am a massive county cricket fan anyway but the last few years I haven't been particularly incentivised to go all that much as I have no great attachment to Lancashire. I think I probably trebled (at least) the number of days I went to this year across all competitions and I see myself keeping up the habit next year so I'm quite grateful for being motivated and reminded (not that I should need it) that there are few better ways to spend summer days than sat on the boundary watching Championship cricket. Anything that threatens that should be fought tooth and nail by cricket fans. That's not the same as being resistant to all change though - I'd like to see positive attempts (as opposed to transparent smokescreens to justify reducing in the number of games) made to broaden the support base for Championship cricket in order to boost its long term survival. Primarily that involves giving it the TV coverage it deserves but I know I sound like a broken record on that one. I would also favour a return to more out-ground cricket I think if it is properly marketed and targeted clearly. Like Lancs new ticketing policy of walk ups where you pay a different price for the whole day, 2 sessions or 1 session. That sort of thing should be publicised. There's a big latent support for Championship cricket that the ECB makes no real effort to tap into. I think a lot of people like the fact that it sits in defiant contrast to the way a lot of sport (and to a degree society in general) are going. I think you could market it as a positive image of a slower, more gentle pace of life. That's not to undermine the competitiveness but I think it would have legs but then I am horribly biased!
The other hobbyhorse - I'll repeat that I think the fatal flaw of T20 Franchise cricket as mechanism for attracting casual fans is a simple one; even in high summer it generally gets bloody cold in the evenings in England once the sun goes down! Those tournaments need to be done intensively to work in that way, get the stars involved and fit into the wider cricketing schedule. Evening cricket in England has always been an underwhelming dud in the long run for this reason - I don't see that changing much. That's before you even get to the nature of support for cricket in this county or it's place in the sporting hierarchy. I just don't think that outside of cricket fans there are enough famous 'names' to produce a massive boost in attendance through a franchise system. The whole point is that they rely on the 'star' appeal and (sadly really) I don't think cricket has a sufficiently important place in the national psyche anymore that big name cricketers are automatically going to spark interest. Maybe Chris Gayle? But is there really superstar cricketers who are going to draw 'casual' fans to the grounds in mass numbers as happens in India and Australia - I just think cricket has a different potential audience than in those countries and, if it's no the superstars who are going to attract people then it's asking the competition itself to do an awful lot of that marketing legwork and I'm not convinced it's that attractive an idea. But, again, I'm hopelessly biased against it! I don't really want to see the arguments in favour as it is just a bad thing as far as I'm concerned.......
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