irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Feb 24, 2016 14:47:50 GMT
www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/feb/24/twenty20-cricket-melbourne-renegades-big-bash-mike-selveyIf anyone has the time this will reward it - very long though. A very well written piece about T20 in the context of T20 skeptic Mike Selvey embedding himself in a Big Bash Franchise. Some good points - not sure I entirely agree with the sentiment. But there it does perhaps caputure a feel of traditionalists being Canute trying to hold back the tide here when maybe we should be seeing T20 for what it is. Still not convinced a British version of the Big Bash is really viable - cricket simply has a different place in our sporting culture than it does in Aus. Thought the interview with Gayle was very interesting. Kind of belies the stereotype of Gayle being a mercenary who just rocks up on the day, casually smashes a few 6's, picks up a massive paycheck and moves onto the next place. The guy clearly works very, very hard to be as good as he is both on technique and tactics.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 9, 2016 19:39:46 GMT
Yes you were correct it is a long article but very interesting. The franchising idea is not something I feel very comfortable with and as a Somerset CCC member of over 50 years know that we would never get the 20000 crowd even if we had a stadium to do so. If the franchise idea comes to pass then I think Somerset and the other smaller non-urban counties will be sacrificed. If it is for the good of English cricket overall then I guess we will have to put up with it. I still feel that Australia and how the populations and cricket is already based around the large cities was perfect for a franchise-big city organisation. It will be interesting to see how the women's cricket 20/20 goes this year with the 6 franchises. But even if it goes well it's starting from a much lower base and should do well. If it comes to the big city franchise then in the west it will be Bristol and Somerset will be consumed into that. But I don't think many Devon, Dorset or Somerset based fans would want to have the hassle of transport in Bristol to watch let alone support what has been our traditional rivals. But I would imagine if it was marketed correctly you would get 10-15k from Bristol and surrounds so our fan base wouldn't be needed. I could easily support Gloucestershire (or Bristol as it's more likely to be called) as I'm a Bristolian by birth. But others aren't. If it comes to pass then I would imagine that there would still be a county-based 20/20 in some form or other as a kind of nursery/starter /division 2 competition.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Apr 10, 2016 15:48:24 GMT
Yes you were correct it is a long article but very interesting. The franchising idea is not something I feel very comfortable with and as a Somerset CCC member of over 50 years know that we would never get the 20000 crowd even if we had a stadium to do so. If the franchise idea comes to pass then I think Somerset and the other smaller non-urban counties will be sacrificed. If it is for the good of English cricket overall then I guess we will have to put up with it. I still feel that Australia and how the populations and cricket is already based around the large cities was perfect for a franchise-big city organisation. It will be interesting to see how the women's cricket 20/20 goes this year with the 6 franchises. But even if it goes well it's starting from a much lower base and should do well. If it comes to the big city franchise then in the west it will be Bristol and Somerset will be consumed into that. But I don't think many Devon, Dorset or Somerset based fans would want to have the hassle of transport in Bristol to watch let alone support what has been our traditional rivals. But I would imagine if it was marketed correctly you would get 10-15k from Bristol and surrounds so our fan base wouldn't be needed. I could easily support Gloucestershire (or Bristol as it's more likely to be called) as I'm a Bristolian by birth. But others aren't. If it comes to pass then I would imagine that there would still be a county-based 20/20 in some form or other as a kind of nursery/starter /division 2 competition. I also don't like the franchise system - we have 18 professional cricket in this country that cover a good geographical spread, it makes sense to build out of that. I do think that if franchises did emerge then it would be completely new teams. So it wouldn't be 'Gloucestershire' - it would be a new Bristol based side. Doesn't change the basic criticism though. One option might be to split the clubs over multiple grounds and bigger regional identities. So you'd have 'West Country insert silly nicknames' that played at both Bristol and Taunton for example. The Birmingham based team could play games at Worcester as well. Sussex-Hampshire etc. Fall down a little bit when you get to London but you get the idea. You match a Test/International Ground with a non-Test international Ground and make sure they both get some games in the groups stages. Then the big ground hosts the knockouts. Either way, I'm not sure we can get away with putting our fingers in our ears and hoping T20 goes away anymore. One issue is that increasingly this is the format that young professionals want to play in. |
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 10, 2016 18:18:34 GMT
Yes you were correct it is a long article but very interesting. The franchising idea is not something I feel very comfortable with and as a Somerset CCC member of over 50 years know that we would never get the 20000 crowd even if we had a stadium to do so. If the franchise idea comes to pass then I think Somerset and the other smaller non-urban counties will be sacrificed. If it is for the good of English cricket overall then I guess we will have to put up with it. I still feel that Australia and how the populations and cricket is already based around the large cities was perfect for a franchise-big city organisation. It will be interesting to see how the women's cricket 20/20 goes this year with the 6 franchises. But even if it goes well it's starting from a much lower base and should do well. If it comes to the big city franchise then in the west it will be Bristol and Somerset will be consumed into that. But I don't think many Devon, Dorset or Somerset based fans would want to have the hassle of transport in Bristol to watch let alone support what has been our traditional rivals. But I would imagine if it was marketed correctly you would get 10-15k from Bristol and surrounds so our fan base wouldn't be needed. I could easily support Gloucestershire (or Bristol as it's more likely to be called) as I'm a Bristolian by birth. But others aren't. If it comes to pass then I would imagine that there would still be a county-based 20/20 in some form or other as a kind of nursery/starter /division 2 competition. I also don't like the franchise system - we have 18 professional cricket in this country that cover a good geographical spread, it makes sense to build out of that. I do think that if franchises did emerge then it would be completely new teams. So it wouldn't be 'Gloucestershire' - it would be a new Bristol based side. Doesn't change the basic criticism though. One option might be to split the clubs over multiple grounds and bigger regional identities. So you'd have 'West Country insert silly nicknames' that played at both Bristol and Taunton for example. The Birmingham based team could play games at Worcester as well. Sussex-Hampshire etc. Fall down a little bit when you get to London but you get the idea. You match a Test/International Ground with a non-Test international Ground and make sure they both get some games in the groups stages. Then the big ground hosts the knockouts. Either way, I'm not sure we can get away with putting our fingers in our ears and hoping T20 goes away anymore. One issue is that increasingly this is the format that young professionals want to play in. You are correct, we can't pretend it's not there. It will happen whatever we say. The thoughts you have about 20/20 is what I think will happen in some similar way. I don't have much confidence in the ECB after the way they have fiddled with the Championship for next season. With only 2 up from the second division it will be hard for anyone to break into the top division and with Somerset being the only non-test playing county in the top division if we do go down.....? So we are very vulnerable especially this season, we need to stay in div 1. I feel that the ECB are looking for the test counties and big city counties to make up the top division of the Championship and Somerset is almost an anomaly in that they are profitable without being test playing. The paying customer in cricket is definately being polarised between 20/20 and red ball cricket and I suspect there will be several changes that will make me as a traditional cricket fan feel uncomfortable in the years to come. But if 20/20 does change and it is a success then perhaps we do need to change. The recent World 20/20 was very exciting and full of good cricket and if any changes help make it better then the ECB has got to support that. I just know I won't want to sacrifice my love of Somerset to do so. But hey ho we have to adapt to change and always have done. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Apr 10, 2016 21:26:28 GMT
I also don't like the franchise system - we have 18 professional cricket in this country that cover a good geographical spread, it makes sense to build out of that. I do think that if franchises did emerge then it would be completely new teams. So it wouldn't be 'Gloucestershire' - it would be a new Bristol based side. Doesn't change the basic criticism though. One option might be to split the clubs over multiple grounds and bigger regional identities. So you'd have 'West Country insert silly nicknames' that played at both Bristol and Taunton for example. The Birmingham based team could play games at Worcester as well. Sussex-Hampshire etc. Fall down a little bit when you get to London but you get the idea. You match a Test/International Ground with a non-Test international Ground and make sure they both get some games in the groups stages. Then the big ground hosts the knockouts. Either way, I'm not sure we can get away with putting our fingers in our ears and hoping T20 goes away anymore. One issue is that increasingly this is the format that young professionals want to play in. You are correct, we can't pretend it's not there. It will happen whatever we say. The thoughts you have about 20/20 is what I think will happen in some similar way. I don't have much confidence in the ECB after the way they have fiddled with the Championship for next season. With only 2 up from the second division it will be hard for anyone to break into the top division and with Somerset being the only non-test playing county in the top division if we do go down.....? So we are very vulnerable especially this season, we need to stay in div 1. I feel that the ECB are looking for the test counties and big city counties to make up the top division of the Championship and Somerset is almost an anomaly in that they are profitable without being test playing. The paying customer in cricket is definately being polarised between 20/20 and red ball cricket and I suspect there will be several changes that will make me as a traditional cricket fan feel uncomfortable in the years to come. But if 20/20 does change and it is a success then perhaps we do need to change. The recent World 20/20 was very exciting and full of good cricket and if any changes help make it better then the ECB has got to support that. I just know I won't want to sacrifice my love of Somerset to do so. But hey ho we have to adapt to change and always have done. To be honest I think Somerset's continued relevance is an utter pain in the back side for the ECB. Being a successful, profitable non-City based county disproves quite a lot of their current theories about the future direction of the game. I wouldn't be too concerned - I like the look of Somerset this year. Assuming Tres can keep it going for another year that is as good a top 3 as there is in the country+ Hildreth and Allenby and there's some serious batting depth there. The bowling seems improved as well - lots of good young seamers who are maturing quickly. I think there'll go alright. Glos on the other hand must be cursing - I think they could have conceivably positioned themselves in the hunt with 2 places available but it's hard to make much of a case for them emerging as the promoted side really.
I think World T20 is a really excellent competition - much better than the interminable cricket world cup where you lose the will to live after a couple of week. The World T20 is short and snappy and full of relevant and exciting games. This is where I think there is room for innovative thinking on domestic T20. In that short, sharp tournament burst T20 works well - I also like the idea of finals day. I'd like to see them experiment with that on a regional level. You could have Gloucester, Somerset and Glamorgan all playing each other on the same day at a single ground - and then you rotate it. That kind of thing. Regional rivalries and short tournaments strike me as the way to go with T20 as far as possible - city franchises less so. We're always going to be limited by scheduling and weather though compared with the Aussies and the Indians. We have to always move the T20 tournament in order to avoid clashing it with major football tournament + you can always have a bad month of weather that turns it into a farce. They don't really have those problems - so I think T20 will always be limited on a domestic level in England really and that we should accept that - doesn't mean we give up but we need to be realistic. Grand schemes for tournaments that rival the big bash and IPL strike me as pie in the sky but it doesn't mean we can't create something better than we have that maximises the value of what we have. T20 with promotion and relegation would not be the worst idea would it? At least it would keep all counties interested.
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Bridgeman
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Post by Bridgeman on Apr 11, 2016 0:14:24 GMT
I know this is a cricket discussion but in Wales where they combined rugby clubs to eventually form 4 franchises (regions) it has totally destroyed the club game and its support base, I hope it doesn't do that to the cricket clubs if something similar happens.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 11, 2016 17:46:20 GMT
Yes Irish what you say about regional 20/20 makes sence. Something will happen and I just hope that good, well organised and financially sound counties are not excluded just because the ECB have big city tinted glasses about the future of cricket.
What you say Bridgeman about the comparison with rugby is interesting. I had never drawn the comparison but the idea of franchising is, as you say, very similar and like you, I would hate to see it go. But, and correct me if I'm wrong because I know very little about Welsh rugby, with these 4 franchises based around the 4 biggest areas of South Wales, hasn't the Welsh National team done well out of this. They seem to be stronger and have had a lot of success in world cups etc. That would be the justified reason for Welsh rugby going the way it has done and the smaller clubs that were there before are just the damage that comes out of it. I don't know but the Welsh team seems to be stronger because of this doesn't it? By the way that does not justify it to me because I am more of a traditionalist but I'm just presuming that that would be an argument in favour of the Ospreys, Blues, Dragons and Scarlets idea put forward by the Welsh board or whoever runs the area teams.
I guess that just like football and Premier league against the rest and cricket where the good of the national team is allowed to run roughshod over the counties in rugby it's just the same.....money rules!
Anyway Up the Gas and Somerset CCC.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Apr 11, 2016 20:18:31 GMT
I know this is a cricket discussion but in Wales where they combined rugby clubs to eventually form 4 franchises (regions) it has totally destroyed the club game and its support base, I hope it doesn't do that to the cricket clubs if something similar happens. I agree - and there are massive lessons to learn there. I am a big Welsh Rugby fan and many of my family were deeply involved in that club culture - something quite unique and special was destroyed there. It was a throwing the baby out with the bath water situation I believe. Welsh Rugby has done amazingly well in the last 10-12 year (better than I ever thought they would in my lifetime to be honest - I grew up in the 90s and the general feeling among everyone I spoke to was that Welsh success was in the past and they'd be lucky to cling on to 2nd class nation status) but I do wonder if the thriving culture that supported the enduring ability of Wales to punch above their weight in Rugby has been delivered a fatal blow in the long run. I have this permanent fear that what I've actually witnessed in the last decade is not the re-emergence of Welsh Rugby but the final Indian summer before its inevitable and permanent decline because the structure that supported it all has gone. I keep expecting Wales to 'do a West Indies' to be honest (mind you they've just won the Men's and Women's T20 so ho-hum!). |
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 12, 2016 8:30:37 GMT
I know this is a cricket discussion but in Wales where they combined rugby clubs to eventually form 4 franchises (regions) it has totally destroyed the club game and its support base, I hope it doesn't do that to the cricket clubs if something similar happens. I agree - and there are massive lessons to learn there. I am a big Welsh Rugby fan and many of my family were deeply involved in that club culture - something quite unique and special was destroyed there. It was a throwing the baby out with the bath water situation I believe. Welsh Rugby has done amazingly well in the last 10-12 year (better than I ever thought they would in my lifetime to be honest - I grew up in the 90s and the general feeling among everyone I spoke to was that Welsh success was in the past and they'd be lucky to cling on to 2nd class nation status) but I do wonder if the thriving culture that supported the enduring ability of Wales to punch above their weight in Rugby has been delivered a fatal blow in the long run. I have this permanent fear that what I've actually witnessed in the last decade is not the re-emergence of Welsh Rugby but the final Indian summer before its inevitable and permanent decline because the structure that supported it all has gone. I keep expecting Wales to 'do a West Indies' to be honest (mind you they've just won the Men's and Women's T20 so ho-hum!). Are the club sides still well supported eg Neath, Bridgend, Aberavon etc? Or is that support all going to the Blues, Scarlets, Dragons and Ospreys? I would have thought that rugby being quite partisan and club based in Wales the the 4 teams would get the support from Newport, LLanelli, Swansea and Cardiff but that the clubs in the towns would keep theirs but as I said I don't know too much about the politics of Welsh rugby. It does seem a shame because having spent 3 years in Wales in the 70s I remember all too well the great town teams they produced. |
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Bridgeman
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Post by Bridgeman on Apr 12, 2016 22:31:29 GMT
I agree - and there are massive lessons to learn there. I am a big Welsh Rugby fan and many of my family were deeply involved in that club culture - something quite unique and special was destroyed there. It was a throwing the baby out with the bath water situation I believe. Welsh Rugby has done amazingly well in the last 10-12 year (better than I ever thought they would in my lifetime to be honest - I grew up in the 90s and the general feeling among everyone I spoke to was that Welsh success was in the past and they'd be lucky to cling on to 2nd class nation status) but I do wonder if the thriving culture that supported the enduring ability of Wales to punch above their weight in Rugby has been delivered a fatal blow in the long run. I have this permanent fear that what I've actually witnessed in the last decade is not the re-emergence of Welsh Rugby but the final Indian summer before its inevitable and permanent decline because the structure that supported it all has gone. I keep expecting Wales to 'do a West Indies' to be honest (mind you they've just won the Men's and Women's T20 so ho-hum!). Are the club sides still well supported eg Neath, Bridgend, Aberavon etc? Or is that support all going to the Blues, Scarlets, Dragons and Ospreys? I would have thought that rugby being quite partisan and club based in Wales the the 4 teams would get the support from Newport, LLanelli, Swansea and Cardiff but that the clubs in the towns would keep theirs but as I said I don't know too much about the politics of Welsh rugby. It does seem a shame because having spent 3 years in Wales in the 70s I remember all too well the great town teams they produced. Unfortunately unless it's a derby game in the regions you'll get very little support. Because of the parochial nature of Welsh Rugby and the clubs, the regions don't really draw in the support from the area's they were supposed to cover. Certainly in the former Gwent area where you had established professional teams like Pontypool, Ebbw Vale, Newbridge, Cross Keys, Brymawr, Tredegar, Abertillery etc to base the regional team in Newport was like asking all those fans to dance with the devil, it was never going to happen. Newport are hated by all those fans so to base it and then call the team the Newport Gwent Dragons meant that few outside of Newport were ever going to support. Anyhow I digress.....but a lot of those clubs I mention struggle to put out a first team nowadays...... |
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 13, 2016 8:09:39 GMT
That sounds a real shame for those clubs. Is that the long term price clubs have to pay for the success of the national team? If that is the result then I do fear for the county cricket game if franchises come in. Suspect it will be more of a mix 'n match. 6/8 franchises in 20/20 with county championship being tinkered with around the edges. If the cricket boards have any sence they will see that in Australia, SA, WI, Pakistan and India the red-ball, first class game has all but collapsed and in regards to playing test cricket the English system is still regarded as the best, hence young cricketers overseas wanting to come here. Yes, we can learn from Big Bash and IPL in 20/20 but lead the way in first class game. There is not too much wrong with first class cricket except people unable to commit for 4 days to watch it start to finish. Old farts like me can and from watching most of Somersets home and a few away last season I can vouch for the high quality of each session in division 1. Can't say anything about division 2 where lots of questions are asked about quality.
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