brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
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Post by brizzle on Nov 11, 2015 12:56:10 GMT
From today's edition of The Guardian . . .
His leaving his position was always on the cards of course, but I believe that the decision for him to go was accelerated by the public ''bitching'' that has broken out between the World Cup squad members. I'll bet Sam Burgess is pleased to be so far away from it all, as quite a lot seems to revolve around him.
But the big question must be, who will it be?
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Post by Nobbygas on Nov 11, 2015 14:25:22 GMT
He had to go. We played a player who's heart wasn't in it, yet the European Player of the Year 2014 was left out of the squad because he plays in France !
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brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
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Post by brizzle on Nov 11, 2015 15:08:06 GMT
He had to go. We played a player who's heart wasn't in it, yet the European Player of the Year 2014 was left out of the squad because he plays in France ! I'm bound to agree that he had to go, I really don't think that the RFU had any real choice in the matter. It was always a case of when, and not if. The thought of him fulfilling the remainder of his extremely generous contract would fill most people with dread. Particularly so, now that the close harmony of the squad has been broken so publicly, and it's likely to get worse too I think. If my memory isn't playing tricks again Stuart Lancaster was appointed on the back of pressure from the England squad, which should tell us all quite a bit. But he seems to be a decent man mind you, highly principled but essentially over-promoted. With the resources, facilities and players at his disposal he really should have achieved much more than he did, England's record in the Six Nations is proof of that . . . never mind the World Cup. It's a pity that the RFU don't take a little inwards look as a part of their review, but I can't help but recall what Lawrence Dallaglio is quoted as saying recently . . . that English rugby has been rotting for a number of years now, long before Lancaster's appointment. It seems that Will Carling's description of the ruling hierarchy at the RFU all those years ago, may still be a valid one. But looking to the future now, with the Six Nations just around the corner, I'm intrigued to see what (and who) comes next. |
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Rex
Predictions League
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Post by Rex on Nov 12, 2015 17:23:21 GMT
He had to go. We played a player who's heart wasn't in it, yet the European Player of the Year 2014 was left out of the squad because he plays in France ! I agree he should go, but to be fair to him , leaving out the 2014 (and 2015) player of the year was out of his hands. on another note, when he left these shores who'd have thought Abendanon would have been such a success?
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Bridgeman
Alfie Biggs
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Post by Bridgeman on Nov 12, 2015 23:28:53 GMT
He had to go. We played a player who's heart wasn't in it, yet the European Player of the Year 2014 was left out of the squad because he plays in France ! I agree he should go, but to be fair to him , leaving out the 2014 (and 2015) player of the year was out of his hands. on another note, when he left these shores who'd have thought Abendanon would have been such a success?
I certainly didn't, he was always very hit and miss when playing for Bath and seemed rather very fragile with it. I was very surprised he was chosen as European Player of the Year. |
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Post by Nobbygas on Nov 13, 2015 6:59:55 GMT
He had to go. We played a player who's heart wasn't in it, yet the European Player of the Year 2014 was left out of the squad because he plays in France ! I agree he should go, but to be fair to him , leaving out the 2014 (and 2015) player of the year was out of his hands. on another note, when he left these shores who'd have thought Abendanon would have been such a success?
The crazyness of the situation is that now England are looking at picking a 'foreign' coach ! |
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Rex
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Post by Rex on Nov 13, 2015 11:32:44 GMT
I agree he should go, but to be fair to him , leaving out the 2014 (and 2015) player of the year was out of his hands. on another note, when he left these shores who'd have thought Abendanon would have been such a success?
The crazyness of the situation is that now England are looking at picking a 'foreign' coach ! I do understand the reasoning behind picking home based players only, but I don't think it's practical if you want to be in with a fighting chance of winning things.
It also seems a bit of a nonsense to be trying to protect, in our case the Aviva Premiership, for the 'good of English rugby' and then pick players who aren't actually English! I really do think to play for a country, being resident in it for a few years isn't enough. I know every country- including the best- do it, but I still don't think it's right.
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brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
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Joined: May 2014
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Post by brizzle on Nov 13, 2015 13:04:46 GMT
It's quite possible that should the RFU appoint a foreign coach, then he might have a more sympathetic approach to selecting English players that are currently playing abroad.
In any event I think that the new coach (foreign or not) will have to reconsider the policy as a matter of necessity, if England are to progress. We can't continue with a policy which deprives us of real talent.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 13, 2015 13:28:31 GMT
Surely this is one of the issues that whole Northern Hemisphere has. By having 3 Leagues competing for players and status the focus is going to be taken away from what is best for the National teams. The franchise system for the Southern hemisphere where is just one League clearly benefits the coherence of international teams and the exposure of those players to World Class Rugby week in week out especially now Argentina basically gets to puts its own team in. I'm not advocating a franchise system for the Northern Hemisphere but I do think it makes a big difference. Imagine if you had say one 20 Team European Superleague with the 3 Irish sides, Cardiff, Swansea and Llanelli, Glasgow and Edinburgh and 6 teams from England and France (possibly take 1 team off the Welsh and Irish in order to work in an Italian side). The quality of that League would be so much higher than even the European Cup because all the talent would go to those teams. You could have a couple of teams representing the South West, a couple of London teams, an East Midlands team and a side based up North somewhere. I'm not suggesting mergers here - just new entities representing specific regions. It's never going to happen and it probably should never happen but I do think to some extent there is a club v country trade off.
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Rex
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Post by Rex on Nov 13, 2015 14:43:10 GMT
It's quite possible that should the RFU appoint a foreign coach, then he might have a more sympathetic approach to selecting English players that are currently playing abroad. In any event I think that the new coach (foreign or not) will have to reconsider the policy as a matter of necessity, if England are to progress. We can't continue with a policy which deprives us of real talent. I thought it was the RFUs decision and not the coaches to not pick players outwith our own league- although I do stand to be corrected on that. |
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brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
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Post by brizzle on Nov 13, 2015 16:06:47 GMT
It's quite possible that should the RFU appoint a foreign coach, then he might have a more sympathetic approach to selecting English players that are currently playing abroad. In any event I think that the new coach (foreign or not) will have to reconsider the policy as a matter of necessity, if England are to progress. We can't continue with a policy which deprives us of real talent. I thought it was the RFUs decision and not the coaches to not pick players outwith our own league- although I do stand to be corrected on that. I see what you're saying there, but for the purposes of discussion I was working on the assumption that when the new coach was finally appointed, that he would have the full backing of the RFU as he had just been appointed by them. And that if it was his preferred choice to use overseas players then the RFU would go along with that on the basis that he was their own recently appointed man. And that if they did still not agree with the policy then they would not have engaged him in the first place . . . if you can follow my mazy logic (and assumptions) that is.  But I suppose that what I'm attempting to say is that all of this (and much more I'm certain) will form part of the interview process, what the coach wants and what the RFU requires etc, so it would be no use to anyone to appoint someone whose policies do not conform to your ideals, and vice versa of course. Stay tuned.   |
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Bridgeman
Alfie Biggs
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Post by Bridgeman on Nov 14, 2015 23:10:48 GMT
Surely this is one of the issues that whole Northern Hemisphere has. By having 3 Leagues competing for players and status the focus is going to be taken away from what is best for the National teams. The franchise system for the Southern hemisphere where is just one League clearly benefits the coherence of international teams and the exposure of those players to World Class Rugby week in week out especially now Argentina basically gets to puts its own team in. I'm not advocating a franchise system for the Northern Hemisphere but I do think it makes a big difference. Imagine if you had say one 20 Team European Superleague with the 3 Irish sides, Cardiff, Swansea and Llanelli, Glasgow and Edinburgh and 6 teams from England and France (possibly take 1 team off the Welsh and Irish in order to work in an Italian side). The quality of that League would be so much higher than even the European Cup because all the talent would go to those teams. You could have a couple of teams representing the South West, a couple of London teams, an East Midlands team and a side based up North somewhere. I'm not suggesting mergers here - just new entities representing specific regions. It's never going to happen and it probably should never happen but I do think to some extent there is a club v country trade off. Support for club rugby in Wales since the introduction of regional sides has gone down the pan, some of the old club sides are struggling to put out first teams let alone 2nd or 3rd teams as used to be the norm In fact even the regional sides are poorly supported, I'd be very surprised if the English RFU and clubs would be supportive of regional teams. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 14, 2015 23:37:38 GMT
Surely this is one of the issues that whole Northern Hemisphere has. By having 3 Leagues competing for players and status the focus is going to be taken away from what is best for the National teams. The franchise system for the Southern hemisphere where is just one League clearly benefits the coherence of international teams and the exposure of those players to World Class Rugby week in week out especially now Argentina basically gets to puts its own team in. I'm not advocating a franchise system for the Northern Hemisphere but I do think it makes a big difference. Imagine if you had say one 20 Team European Superleague with the 3 Irish sides, Cardiff, Swansea and Llanelli, Glasgow and Edinburgh and 6 teams from England and France (possibly take 1 team off the Welsh and Irish in order to work in an Italian side). The quality of that League would be so much higher than even the European Cup because all the talent would go to those teams. You could have a couple of teams representing the South West, a couple of London teams, an East Midlands team and a side based up North somewhere. I'm not suggesting mergers here - just new entities representing specific regions. It's never going to happen and it probably should never happen but I do think to some extent there is a club v country trade off. Support for club rugby in Wales since the introduction of regional sides has gone down the pan, some of the old club sides are struggling to put out first teams let alone 2nd or 3rd teams as used to be the norm In fact even the regional sides are poorly supported, I'd be very surprised if the English RFU and clubs would be supportive of regional teams. I know - it's absolutely killed the old club Rugby culture in Wales and that's a genuine tragedy. I'm not really supportive of the idea at all - but the club v country thing is clearly a big deal. The Union's protecting their patch and their clubs/regions clearly prevents an elite competition equivalent to the Southern Hemisphere emerging. I think that's a fair trade off but I think Rugby is deluding itself if it doesn't recognise that it is a trade off and that the way club Rugby is set up is not designed to ensure national teams are as competitive as they could be. |
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Bridgeman
Alfie Biggs
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Posts: 3,549
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Post by Bridgeman on Nov 15, 2015 10:56:34 GMT
Support for club rugby in Wales since the introduction of regional sides has gone down the pan, some of the old club sides are struggling to put out first teams let alone 2nd or 3rd teams as used to be the norm In fact even the regional sides are poorly supported, I'd be very surprised if the English RFU and clubs would be supportive of regional teams. . I'm not really supportive of the idea at all - but the club v country thing is clearly a big deal. The Union's protecting their patch and their clubs/regions clearly prevents an elite competition equivalent to the Southern Hemisphere emerging. I think that's a fair trade off but I think Rugby is deluding itself if it doesn't recognise that it is a trade off and that the way club Rugby is set up is not designed to ensure national teams are as competitive as they could be. Living in Wales as I do it spoilt what of course was a very parochial approach to who you supported but none the less when the bigger of the clubs were successful the local towns or villages went to support them. Regional teams killed that off almost overnight and money became king and players went to wherever they could pick up the most money. There are of course semi professional teams and a league to match it but why would people like me (and a lot of others) travel 25/30 miles to watch those teams when you can travel around the same miles and watch a fully professional team like Gloucester/Worcester/Bristol ? People in the valleys as I've said are very parochial and won't travel to Cardiff/Newport/Swansea/Llanelli as they don't represent them, people from Cwmbran/Pontypool don't like people from Newport so they aren't going to go and watch 'their' regional side. As you say it's a tragedy but one which the WRU are going to have to live with. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 15, 2015 14:20:56 GMT
I know - it's absolutely killed the old club Rugby culture in Wales and that's a genuine tragedy. I'm not really supportive of the idea at all - but the club v country thing is clearly a big deal. The Union's protecting their patch and their clubs/regions clearly prevents an elite competition equivalent to the Southern Hemisphere emerging. I think that's a fair trade off but I think Rugby is deluding itself if it doesn't recognise that it is a trade off and that the way club Rugby is set up is not designed to ensure national teams are as competitive as they could be. Living in Wales as I do it spoilt what of course was a very parochial approach to who you supported but none the less when the bigger of the clubs were successful the local towns or villages went to support them. Regional teams killed that off almost overnight and money became king and players went to wherever they could pick up the most money. There are of course semi professional teams and a league to match it but why would people like me (and a lot of others) travel 25/30 miles to watch those teams when you can travel around the same miles and watch a fully professional team like Gloucester/Worcester/Bristol ? People in the valleys as I've said are very parochial and won't travel to Cardiff/Newport/Swansea/Llanelli as they don't represent them, people from Cwmbran/Pontypool don't like people from Newport so they aren't going to go and watch 'their' regional side. As you say it's a tragedy but one which the WRU are going to have to live with. I know and they did it in such a brainless way too. The definition of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You had something that was unique and special that connected communities up and down the country with the national game - it was a proper thriving culture but it wasn't a professional one which was an issue when revenue became everything. But instead of thinking how can we build on the positives of this within the context of a professional game they just ripped it up and started again and destroyed something that was quite precious replacing it with something that is at the same time soulless and unsuccessful on its own terms. We're so crap at this in this country. Whenever we're winning we just ignore any underlying problems that may be building and when we lose we just rip everything up and start again copying somebody else's MBA handbook which might not be appropriate to the sporting culture in the UK. It's bizarre - it's like there's only ever 2 modes; complacency or crisis. The most successful sporting countries are constantly tinkering and adding in an organic way to what works - not lurching from one re-organisation to the next without stopping to think about the relative merits. Taking 'bold' action becomes an end in itself irrespective of what that action actually is. See the ridiculous notion of T20 franchise for county cricket rearing it's head again. We have 18 separate bases for cricket in this country - that depth of community coverage should be a good thing and something to build on - instead it's seen as a problem that needs solving by people who think that if you send out players wearing gold helmets the public will flock in their 10's of thousands to freezing cold test stadiums on Tuesday nights in June. They don't understand the underlying value of sporting culture and that if you break that link you actually lose everything. |
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