Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 20:46:52 GMT
All sorts of reasons, lack of a decent offer (in their view), ego, arrogance, greed, petulance, dislike of potential suitors, lack of willingness to take losses, fear, stupidity, lack of awareness of the seriousness of the situation, fear of letting go.... I have seen all sorts of reasons for mergers and takeovers failing. I am sure there are plenty more! Have you ever seen a company with a single asset worth £15m go into administration due to £2.6m external debt? Bristol Rugby Club went into administration when they owned half of The Mem.
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aghast
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Post by aghast on Sept 24, 2015 20:56:17 GMT
I've never understood where the mortgage on the Mem came from. I thought the agreement between us and Bristol Rugby was that if either club went bust, the other would then own the stadium for a neglible fee, and certainly nothing like the £900k mentioned previously.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 20:58:33 GMT
Have you ever seen a company with a single asset worth £15m go into administration due to £2.6m external debt? Bristol Rugby Club went into administration when they owned half of The Mem. The stadium wasn't worth anywhere near as much for development back then. What was the external debt?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 21:01:19 GMT
I've never understood where the mortgage on the Mem came from. I thought the agreement between us and Bristol Rugby was that if either club went bust, the other would then own the stadium for a neglible fee, and certainly nothing like the £900k mentioned previously. We paid 2m for half the stadium,900,000 is what we still had to pay on the 2m
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 22:16:37 GMT
Bristol Rugby Club went into administration when they owned half of The Mem. The stadium wasn't worth anywhere near as much for development back then. What was the external debt? I think that it was Arthur Holmes, their owner, who put them into administration to get his loans back.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 22:31:17 GMT
The stadium wasn't worth anywhere near as much for development back then. What was the external debt? I think that it was Arthur Holmes, their owner, who put them into administration to get his loans back. Different time, different situation. My point is that it would be utterly nutterly to hand over control of a £15m asset when you have the £2.6m in the bank to pay off Wonga.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 22:46:48 GMT
I think that it was Arthur Holmes, their owner, who put them into administration to get his loans back. Different time, different situation. My point is that it would be utterly nutterly to hand over control of a £15m asset when you have the £2.6m in the bank to pay off Wonga. Agreed. I still wonder why it was decided to pay so much interest to a third party rather than themselves unless they don't have the cash.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 23:13:50 GMT
Different time, different situation. My point is that it would be utterly nutterly to hand over control of a £15m asset when you have the £2.6m in the bank to pay off Wonga. Agreed. I still wonder why it was decided to pay so much interest to a third party rather than themselves unless they don't have the cash. I'm sure they could come up with £2.6m between them. Didn't someone say a few days back that the BoD were bickering about who was going to put money in to cover the Sainsbury's appeal costs, or did I imagine that?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2015 1:21:05 GMT
Ok, I'll ask this question again. If anyone was to buy BRFC1883 ltd what would they actually get? The ground, a 4th div football club and a shed load of debt. the ground is seperate to the club if im not mistaken
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Post by Henbury Gas on Sept 25, 2015 5:52:10 GMT
If we didn't raise the money from Wonga to pay Barclays, what do you think the outcome would have been? I don't know if the Woga loan is secured on the Mem or not but I suspect it is. If we didn't waste a million quid on a doomed court case we might not have needed to pay off Barclays at all. What would the outcome of that have been? We have not wasted a million quid on a court case because the case is still alive So if Shameburry settle out of court (which they will) is that still wasted money Lord Seth of BS3
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Peter Parker
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Richard Walker
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Post by Peter Parker on Sept 25, 2015 6:00:49 GMT
If we didn't waste a million quid on a doomed court case we might not have needed to pay off Barclays at all. What would the outcome of that have been? We have not wasted a million quid on a court case because the case is still alive So if Shameburry settle out of court (which they will) is that still wasted money Lord Seth of BS3 Why will they settle? And if we did i take it Rovers will lower their expectations
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2015 6:14:59 GMT
The ground, a 4th div football club and a shed load of debt. the ground is seperate to the club if im not mistaken Yes, owned by Bristol Rovers 1883 ltd which in turn owns the wholly owned subsidiary Bristol Rovers FC. So the answer to the question is correct.
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Post by droitwichgas on Sept 25, 2015 7:52:32 GMT
We have not wasted a million quid on a court case because the case is still alive So if Shameburry settle out of court (which they will) is that still wasted money Lord Seth of BS3 Why will they settle? And if we did i take it Rovers will lower their expectations Surely if we were going to settle out of court we would do so before handing over £375K in legal costs as an interim payment? Sainsbury's have a judgement so why would they want to settle now when independent observers on the case reckon we don't have any chance of overcoming the lapsed contract hurdle?
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faggotygas
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 25, 2015 8:01:19 GMT
All sorts of reasons, lack of a decent offer (in their view), ego, arrogance, greed, petulance, dislike of potential suitors, lack of willingness to take losses, fear, stupidity, lack of awareness of the seriousness of the situation, fear of letting go.... I have seen all sorts of reasons for mergers and takeovers failing. I am sure there are plenty more! Have you ever seen a company with a single asset worth £15m go into administration due to £2.6m external debt?
Administration is about liquidity, not necessary to have negative net asset value to be insolvent.
Cash flow insolvency
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Sept 25, 2015 8:33:16 GMT
All sorts of reasons, lack of a decent offer (in their view), ego, arrogance, greed, petulance, dislike of potential suitors, lack of willingness to take losses, fear, stupidity, lack of awareness of the seriousness of the situation, fear of letting go.... I have seen all sorts of reasons for mergers and takeovers failing. I am sure there are plenty more! Have you ever seen a company with a single asset worth £15m go into administration due to £2.6m external debt? Being pedantic ~ not those exact figures I have seen asset rich, cash poor companies fall over when a demand for repayment from a lender could not be met and the owners did not have the cash or were not prepared to hand over any more cash to prop up the company.. Also: 1) The value of the Mem is in the eye of the beholder. For a lender like MSP it is worth what they can get in a fire sale. 2) Lenders will usually look to lend at a percentage of the asset value. For example 60% loan to value. You could say then we could theoretically get to £9mln of debt to our £15mln of asset. However we do not know what MSP value the Mem at. The administrator will sell it as a brownfield site needing to be cleared and without current planning permission unless of course they decide to seek pp. I would bet MSP will expect to get far less than £15mln from any fire sale. 3) Don't forget there are other lenders including GoD and Preference Shareholders. Nicholas has I believe converted some of his debt into equity if "those in the know" are correct. There will also be expenses from the court case which if MSP are not being repaid will mean that we will have lost the case. 4) BRFC is insolvent. Its liabilities including previous losses outweigh its assets value. It only continues as a going concern because of the support of the directors. If again those "ITK" are correct only Nicholas is supporting the company now and the other directors are not prepared to put in any more finance. Any bidder will be well aware of all of this.
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Post by Nobbygas on Sept 25, 2015 8:53:47 GMT
Terry - You are part of the Consortium and I claim my five pounds !
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Post by a more piratey game on Sept 25, 2015 9:08:24 GMT
3) Don't forget there are other lenders including GoD and Preference Shareholders. Nicholas has I believe converted some of his debt into equity if "those in the know" are correct. There will also be expenses from the court case which if MSP are not being repaid will mean that we will have lost the case. 4) BRFC is insolvent. Its liabilities including previous losses outweigh its assets value. It only continues as a going concern because of the support of the directors. If again those "ITK" are correct only Nicholas is supporting the company now and the other directors are not prepared to put in any more finance. Any bidder will be well aware of all of this. Chesh, working on the basis that the above is true (I think its believed widely), I'm thinking.....
by turning NH's debt into equity he has lowered the amount of interest payable by the club/eased cash-flow, but probably not by a huge amount, and taken a bigger 'upside' in the event that the big rich sale happens - which hasn't really been on the cards, even under the Sainsbury's scenario (because the stadium cash was ring-fenced), at least in the short term
it might also have been a 'statement' by NH to the rest of the board, showing that he is prepared to put his money where his mouth is. This might have been after the others decided not to put more money in, maybe as a result of the court process, as a reaction to the split which meant that he was increasingly 'on his own'
the alleged consortium types, if aware of all this, will know that NH is being squeezed between the fans/fellow boardmembers/court case, so that having their offer leaked is intended to increase the pressure on him
I think he might be the sort of bloke who, under pressure, wants to tell them all to stick it and plough on with something that he thinks might make sense for the club long-term - UWE Lite, in this case. Because either that plan will work, or at worst it will encourage the consortium to up their offer (which as relayed by peeps on here contains only a 'marketing version' - 'putting money into the stadium and the team', and nothing else
is that how you read it - or if not how do you read it please?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2015 10:28:40 GMT
Have you ever seen a company with a single asset worth £15m go into administration due to £2.6m external debt?
Administration is about liquidity, not necessary to have negative net asset value to be insolvent.
Cash flow insolvency
Yes, of course, but I think it's fair to assume that Nick has £2.6m in the bank?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2015 10:42:05 GMT
Have you ever seen a company with a single asset worth £15m go into administration due to £2.6m external debt? Being pedantic ~ not those exact figures I have seen asset rich, cash poor companies fall over when a demand for repayment from a lender could not be met and the owners did not have the cash or were not prepared to hand over any more cash to prop up the company.. Also: 1) The value of the Mem is in the eye of the beholder. For a lender like MSP it is worth what they can get in a fire sale. 2) Lenders will usually look to lend at a percentage of the asset value. For example 60% loan to value. You could say then we could theoretically get to £9mln of debt to our £15mln of asset. However we do not know what MSP value the Mem at. The administrator will sell it as a brownfield site needing to be cleared and without current planning permission unless of course they decide to seek pp. I would bet MSP will expect to get far less than £15mln from any fire sale. 3) Don't forget there are other lenders including GoD and Preference Shareholders. Nicholas has I believe converted some of his debt into equity if "those in the know" are correct. There will also be expenses from the court case which if MSP are not being repaid will mean that we will have lost the case. 4) BRFC is insolvent. Its liabilities including previous losses outweigh its assets value. It only continues as a going concern because of the support of the directors. If again those "ITK" are correct only Nicholas is supporting the company now and the other directors are not prepared to put in any more finance. Any bidder will be well aware of all of this. All correct of course, but as just mentioned to Faggoty, I think that Nick could raise £2.6m. He won't see the site as £5m at auction with the liability of demolition of existing structures and without PP, today he thinks it's worth £30m, but if that doesn't work out for him he'll be looking at circa £10~15m with PP for residential development. With the government being under never ending pressure to build more affordable housing, the likes of Carstairs won't have much joy resisting that development. As far as I can see from what's been written on here, the Wonga money was used to cover our legal costs, not sure where the £375k lodged for Sainsbury's costs, or the other £375k when the appeal is thrown out will come from. Higgs will not allow administration to happen unless the debt rises significantly.
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Thatslife
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Post by Thatslife on Sept 25, 2015 10:42:42 GMT
Thanks Bamber. I had to google Sye Ten Bruggencate. To save time for others: "That's Life - That's cr*p". So its crap that if BRFC hadn't paid Barclays they would have said on no worries or would they have called in the administrators, put BRFC in liquidation, and sold the Mem to recoup their money. If you think the former is correct then can I have the number of whoever does that and I'll move my mortgage today. I don't appreciate being patronised to by you or Bamber. If you want that to be put in Latin then that can be arranged .
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