dagnogo
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 872
|
Post by dagnogo on Feb 13, 2015 9:38:15 GMT
Why do posters come out with such rubbish about LL & PT, it looks like we are still struggling to pay off the debts LL ran up and PT was useless without LL. Just think if LL/PT/NH had never got involved in Rovers we might be still playing league football at a refurb Mem without massive debts. Funniest post I've read all year. Geoff and friends, who brought in Nick as they needed extra money to run the club, who needed a fans bailout because of the money they pissed up the wall beforehand, who picked Thompson, Francis 2, and Graydon, they'd have seen us right wouldn't they?
|
|
faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
|
Post by faggotygas on Feb 13, 2015 9:50:26 GMT
Rovers always have to have an enemy. Poor Blizzard was plagued by injury and is a villain. Brunt is plagued by injuries and is a hero. What does that make Jamie shore? I want his baby's and yet didn't he play like 3 games? His baby's what?
|
|
LJG
Peter Beadle
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 969
|
Post by LJG on Feb 13, 2015 10:46:49 GMT
Rovers always have to have an enemy. Poor Blizzard was plagued by injury and is a villain. Brunt is plagued by injuries and is a hero. Blizzard was really poor when he played. Brunt did well initially. Jamie Shore was brilliant for a very short period. He'd have been a legend if his knee was up to it, but then he wouldn't have played for us if his knee was up to it. I think that's overly hard on Blizzard. He looked good prior to injury and dropped off after - its just people remember the after period probably because it was the majority of his time.
|
|
irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
|
Post by irishrover on Feb 13, 2015 11:03:33 GMT
Trollope gave us a stability we've not had in 20 years. 4 solid seasons of improvement - no one has matched that. Either side of Trollope has been utter chaos. It's really hard to argue with a promotion, an FA Cup Quarter Final and a JPT Trophy final no matter how often people just brush over these things in order to build a case against. With the history our club that represents almost unparalleled success for such a short period.
I'd say he is a professional football lifer just like his dad was; he's completely steeped in the game. He's not going to win any charisma awards which some seemed to hold against him but his teams were always hard working, difficult to beat and he was someone who managed to get quite a lot out of younger players in my view. Chris Lines, Byron Anthony, Andy Sandell and Lewis Haldane while never being world beaters all became decent players under Trollope. He knew how to set a team up that didn't shirk.
He set his teams up to play a counter-attacking style of football which didn't go down well with people who wanted to watch a side throw caution to the wind a bit more but it was basically successful and won more games than it lost. He got accused of playing 'hoofball' which was absolutely ridiculous compared with what came before and after but he did tend to favour a narrow set-up and his sides rarely played with much width which again cost him something on the aesthetic side in the eyes of quite a few.
Trollope's major blind spot wasn't tactics or talent spotting - it was man management. Most of the players he bought in were technically good players who had done well elsewhere or went on to do well elsewhere. If you have an overview of the careers of Andy Williams (by far his biggest cock up in terms of man management), Mark Wright, Jeff Hughes, Carl Regan, Jo Kuffour, Dominc Blizzard (who'd just been named Stockport's player of the year in League 1), Darryl Duffy etc you wouldn't say these guys were bad players and you'd think it would be an asset to have them in your side at League 1 level. Like a lot of young manager he could spot a player but not the make up of the player (Holloway made exactly the same mistake when he was given money to spend with us - he assumed he could motivate anyone; it's a tough lesson to learn) and he signed a load of guys who were just not the kind of battling committed players you needed for his type of football; too many luxury players. That was his undoing. Maybe it was as simple as introducing new players into quite a tight core that had been together for a while that was the problem or maybe after 4 years you just run out of steam (that's a lifetime compared with what most managers get to these days) but come the end it definitely wasn't working and we were dysfunctional and the opposite to the very functional competitive team that he had generally put out. I don't think he'd have kept us up - the players simply weren't responding to him anymore; that wasn't the mistake it was what we did afterwards that was poor decision making. The fact he's been happy to stay an assistant probably suggests that he has had a good think about his strengths and weaknesses, and where he has respect in the game, though I don't think it would be completely shocking to see him step up somewhere again.
|
|
faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
|
Post by faggotygas on Feb 13, 2015 12:14:33 GMT
Trollope gave us a stability we've not had in 20 years. 4 solid seasons of improvement - no one has matched that. Either side of Trollope has been utter chaos. It's really hard to argue with a promotion, an FA Cup Quarter Final and a JPT Trophy final no matter how often people just brush over these things in order to build a case against. With the history our club that represents almost unparalleled success for such a short period. I'd say he is a professional football lifer just like his dad was; he's completely steeped in the game. He's not going to win any charisma awards which some seemed to hold against him but his teams were always hard working, difficult to beat and he was someone who managed to get quite a lot out of younger players in my view. Chris Lines, Byron Anthony, Andy Sandell and Lewis Haldane while never being world beaters all became decent players under Trollope. He knew how to set a team up that didn't shirk. He set his teams up to play a counter-attacking style of football which didn't go down well with people who wanted to watch a side throw caution to the wind a bit more but it was basically successful and won more games than it lost. He got accused of playing 'hoofball' which was absolutely ridiculous compared with what came before and after but he did tend to favour a narrow set-up and his sides rarely played with much width which again cost him something on the aesthetic side in the eyes of quite a few. Trollope's major blind spot wasn't tactics or talent spotting - it was man management. Most of the players he bought in were technically good players who had done well elsewhere or went on to do well elsewhere. If you have an overview of the careers of Andy Williams (by far his biggest cock up in terms of man management), Mark Wright, Jeff Hughes, Carl Regan, Jo Kuffour, Dominc Blizzard (who'd just been named Stockport's player of the year in League 1), Darryl Duffy etc you wouldn't say these guys were bad players and you'd think it would be an asset to have them in your side at League 1 level. Like a lot of young manager he could spot a player but not the make up of the player (Holloway made exactly the same mistake when he was given money to spend with us - he assumed he could motivate anyone; it's a tough lesson to learn) and he signed a load of guys who were just not the kind of battling committed players you needed for his type of football; too many luxury players. That was his undoing. Maybe it was as simple as introducing new players into quite a tight core that had been together for a while that was the problem or maybe after 4 years you just run out of steam (that's a lifetime compared with what most managers get to these days) but come the end it definitely wasn't working and we were dysfunctional and the opposite to the very functional competitive team that he had generally put out. I don't think he'd have kept us up - the players simply weren't responding to him anymore; that wasn't the mistake it was what we did afterwards that was poor decision making. The fact he's been happy to stay an assistant probably suggests that he has had a good think about his strengths and weaknesses, and where he has respect in the game, though I don't think it would be completely shocking to see him step up somewhere again.
Great analysis as always Irish.
My feelings at the time were Paul, I respect you, but its probably time for a change. The change however was brutal, badly managed, and lacked any semblance of planning. Not how you get the best out of people.
|
|
|
Post by Topper Gas on Feb 13, 2015 20:01:35 GMT
Why do posters come out with such rubbish about LL & PT, it looks like we are still struggling to pay off the debts LL ran up and PT was useless without LL. Just think if LL/PT/NH had never got involved in Rovers we might be still playing league football at a refurb Mem without massive debts. Funniest post I've read all year. Geoff and friends, who brought in Nick as they needed extra money to run the club, who needed a fans bailout because of the money they pissed up the wall beforehand, who picked Thompson, Francis 2, and Graydon, they'd have seen us right wouldn't they? Problem is our saviour somehow managed to virtually bankrupt us to the extent our only hope of survival appears to be to successfully sue one of the biggest retailers in the country with virtually unlimited resources at their disposal to fight the case. As far as the Trollope love is concerned did he just strike lucky when he inherited Atkins squad then was given a future England international by the Board? If he such a great manager why hasn't he ever tried his hand at management since, that surely tells it own story? NH has made some shocking appointments, Penney, Buckle, McGhee & Ward, now he seems to have finally got a seemingly decent manager he rewards him by telling him he'll get the boot if he doesn't deliver promotion!
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 20:13:07 GMT
Trollope Out!
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 20:55:17 GMT
Funniest post I've read all year. Geoff and friends, who brought in Nick as they needed extra money to run the club, who needed a fans bailout because of the money they pissed up the wall beforehand, who picked Thompson, Francis 2, and Graydon, they'd have seen us right wouldn't they? Problem is our saviour somehow managed to virtually bankrupt us to the extent our only hope of survival appears to be to successfully sue one of the biggest retailers in the country with virtually unlimited resources at their disposal to fight the case. As far as the Trollope love is concerned did he just strike lucky when he inherited Atkins squad then was given a future England international by the Board? If he such a great manager why hasn't he ever tried his hand at management since, that surely tells it own story? NH has made some shocking appointments, Penney, Buckle, McGhee & Ward, now he seems to have finally got a seemingly decent manager he rewards him by telling him he'll get the boot if he doesn't deliver promotion! That may be a bit too close to the bone for some but I agree with you there. It really is hard to argue against it. As far as striking it lucky, that is quite ironic really when you think of it. Along with jon Anderson, he was being shown the door when Rovers reverted to the `cheap option` again. This time it paid off big time but also was the start of Rovers troubles. Escalating out of control when Trollope became sole manager and failed badly. This isn't a dig at him because, along with Lennie, he achieved only the third Rovers promotion in my lifetime so some really good memories.
|
|
|
Post by mehewmagic on Feb 13, 2015 20:55:51 GMT
i tried to get a trollope out once, but that's another story.
|
|
Bridgeman
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,549
|
Post by Bridgeman on Feb 13, 2015 22:15:20 GMT
Anyway, it was good while it lasted.....
|
|
dagnogo
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 872
|
Post by dagnogo on Feb 14, 2015 9:32:01 GMT
Funniest post I've read all year. Geoff and friends, who brought in Nick as they needed extra money to run the club, who needed a fans bailout because of the money they pissed up the wall beforehand, who picked Thompson, Francis 2, and Graydon, they'd have seen us right wouldn't they? Problem is our saviour somehow managed to virtually bankrupt us to the extent our only hope of survival appears to be to successfully sue one of the biggest retailers in the country with virtually unlimited resources at their disposal to fight the case. As far as the Trollope love is concerned did he just strike lucky when he inherited Atkins squad then was given a future England international by the Board? If he such a great manager why hasn't he ever tried his hand at management since, that surely tells it own story? NH has made some shocking appointments, Penney, Buckle, McGhee & Ward, now he seems to have finally got a seemingly decent manager he rewards him by telling him he'll get the boot if he doesn't deliver promotion! Did he sleep with your Mrs or something? Obviously he wasn't perfect, his man management style didn't always work, and results really tailed off after Lennie left. But "virtually bankrupted the club"? Think of the prize money and TV money and gate money from Wembley, Cardiff, the FA Cup run, playing teams like Leeds and Norwich in the league... Also, you have to ask who allowed such wages to be paid. Nick, Geoff, Barry, Toni or any of them could have said no - they didn't. Maybe he doesn't manage becausr he knows he's a better coach than he is a manager - you said he inherited Atkins' team - Atkins wasn't coaching them to promotion so maybe PT is a good coach?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2015 10:42:08 GMT
Problem is our saviour somehow managed to virtually bankrupt us to the extent our only hope of survival appears to be to successfully sue one of the biggest retailers in the country with virtually unlimited resources at their disposal to fight the case. As far as the Trollope love is concerned did he just strike lucky when he inherited Atkins squad then was given a future England international by the Board? If he such a great manager why hasn't he ever tried his hand at management since, that surely tells it own story? NH has made some shocking appointments, Penney, Buckle, McGhee & Ward, now he seems to have finally got a seemingly decent manager he rewards him by telling him he'll get the boot if he doesn't deliver promotion! Did he sleep with your Mrs or something? Obviously he wasn't perfect, his man management style didn't always work, and results really tailed off after Lennie left. But "virtually bankrupted the club"? Think of the prize money and TV money and gate money from Wembley, Cardiff, the FA Cup run, playing teams like Leeds and Norwich in the league... Also, you have to ask who allowed such wages to be paid. Nick, Geoff, Barry, Toni or any of them could have said no - they didn't. Maybe he doesn't manage becausr he knows he's a better coach than he is a manager - you said he inherited Atkins' team - Atkins wasn't coaching them to promotion so maybe PT is a good coach? Spot on. Trollope was originally appointed as a coach because that is what he his. Yet another of Higgs's amazingly successful decisions propelled him to manager, something he never was and never has been since. The fact that he has coached in the top two divisions since he left us and we have dropped two levels and into non league football is an endorsement of how good he is.
|
|
irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
|
Post by irishrover on Feb 14, 2015 12:24:52 GMT
Problem is our saviour somehow managed to virtually bankrupt us to the extent our only hope of survival appears to be to successfully sue one of the biggest retailers in the country with virtually unlimited resources at their disposal to fight the case. As far as the Trollope love is concerned did he just strike lucky when he inherited Atkins squad then was given a future England international by the Board? If he such a great manager why hasn't he ever tried his hand at management since, that surely tells it own story? NH has made some shocking appointments, Penney, Buckle, McGhee & Ward, now he seems to have finally got a seemingly decent manager he rewards him by telling him he'll get the boot if he doesn't deliver promotion! Did he sleep with your Mrs or something? Obviously he wasn't perfect, his man management style didn't always work, and results really tailed off after Lennie left. But "virtually bankrupted the club"? Think of the prize money and TV money and gate money from Wembley, Cardiff, the FA Cup run, playing teams like Leeds and Norwich in the league... Also, you have to ask who allowed such wages to be paid. Nick, Geoff, Barry, Toni or any of them could have said no - they didn't. Maybe he doesn't manage becausr he knows he's a better coach than he is a manager - you said he inherited Atkins' team - Atkins wasn't coaching them to promotion so maybe PT is a good coach? Yes - it's absolutely ridiculous to twist things so that everything positive that happened under Trollope becomes 'luck' and all the negatives become his fault including apparently half of what's happened since. That is bizaarly one eyed argument that ends up giving more credit to Ian bloody Atkiins for our promotion than the people who were actually at the helm for 18 months beforehand. It just doesn't make any sense. Trollope didn't come remotely close to bankrupting the club - subsequent managers had some of the highest wage bills in League 2. It wasn't like the aftermath of the Ollie era when Ray Graydon had to work with no hardly any money at all at that level. Definitely not beyond criticism (where did anyone call him a saviour?) but the idea that you can overlook all the things that were achieved under him while castigating for everything else is peculiar; to make him in any way culpable for the Sainsbury's situation is in the range of conspiracy theories.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2015 13:08:17 GMT
i can only go on what an ex players now wife told me (used to work with her) at the time it was happening and the man was a Bully to the younger players and a bum kisser to the "in crowd"
That player now has gone onto greater success at a much higher league
It was good to watch at the time but now is the time to move on
|
|
Bridgeman
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,549
|
Post by Bridgeman on Feb 14, 2015 23:41:11 GMT
i can only go on what an ex players now wife told me (used to work with her) at the time it was happening and the man was a Bully to the younger players and a bum kisser to the "in crowd"That player now has gone onto greater success at a much higher league It was good to watch at the time but now is the time to move on So that's why all our subsequent managers have failed so miserably........
|
|
aghast
David Williams
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 395
|
Post by aghast on Feb 15, 2015 0:10:16 GMT
i can only go on what an ex players now wife told me (used to work with her) at the time it was happening and the man was a Bully to the younger players and a bum kisser to the "in crowd"That player now has gone onto greater success at a much higher league It was good to watch at the time but now is the time to move on So that's why all our subsequent managers have failed so miserably........ If I ever met Mr Trollope in the street, I'd shake him by the hand for the glorious seasons we had with an FA Cup quarter final, a Wembley final, a promotion, and three seasons in League 1, and then throttle him by the neck for being the man responsible for Penney and Buckle, Ward being asked to stay on when he didn't want to, Clarke being told to take over a dying team 8 games from the end of the season, and the £1M spent on legal fees for a stadium we have been trying to build for so long that it now costs £5M more tha we planned. Bl**dy Trollope. You've ruined us. But still - good luck at Cardiff.
|
|
dagnogo
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 872
|
Post by dagnogo on Feb 15, 2015 10:45:02 GMT
Except he's not responsible for who they replaced him with, the Mem redevelopment going tits up, or the UWE going the same way.
People need to remember that the board allowing £3.5m annual wage bills for a club that was getting 7,000 through the door is a chief reason why the club lost money on football operations.
No-one was moaning at the time, of course, because we see it as "ambition" but unless we're in the Championship, Rovers shouldn't be paying players £4k a week. Lennie may have bought the players but Nick and co set the budgets.
Aside from the 2 years under PT and LL when we won promotion and got to the last 8 of the FA Cup, I'd imagine the club hasn't made money since Ollie's day, selling players for over £1m.
Edit - Just noticed you may have been posting sarcastically!
|
|
|
Post by Topper Gas on Feb 15, 2015 19:24:25 GMT
Did he sleep with your Mrs or something? Obviously he wasn't perfect, his man management style didn't always work, and results really tailed off after Lennie left. But "virtually bankrupted the club"? Think of the prize money and TV money and gate money from Wembley, Cardiff, the FA Cup run, playing teams like Leeds and Norwich in the league... Also, you have to ask who allowed such wages to be paid. Nick, Geoff, Barry, Toni or any of them could have said no - they didn't. Maybe he doesn't manage becausr he knows he's a better coach than he is a manager - you said he inherited Atkins' team - Atkins wasn't coaching them to promotion so maybe PT is a good coach? Yes - it's absolutely ridiculous to twist things so that everything positive that happened under Trollope becomes 'luck' and all the negatives become his fault including apparently half of what's happened since. That is bizaarly one eyed argument that ends up giving more credit to Ian bloody Atkiins for our promotion than the people who were actually at the helm for 18 months beforehand. It just doesn't make any sense. Trollope didn't come remotely close to bankrupting the club - subsequent managers had some of the highest wage bills in League 2. It wasn't like the aftermath of the Ollie era when Ray Graydon had to work with no hardly any money at all at that level. Definitely not beyond criticism (where did anyone call him a saviour?) but the idea that you can overlook all the things that were achieved under him while castigating for everything else is peculiar; to make him in any way culpable for the Sainsbury's situation is in the range of conspiracy theories. That's NH's words not mine, it was him who, suggested LL's spending was beyond our means. It seems simple to me the LL/PT partnership worked giving us our best seasons since Ollie's, it then somehow ran out of steam but PT on his own sadly failed. Not sure how that makes PT a fantastic manager for Rovers, as he clearly failed when put in sole charge. PT seems to accept his own failings as he now appears happy as a No 2, and he's probably making a nice living without all the media hassle.
|
|
dagnogo
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 872
|
Post by dagnogo on Feb 15, 2015 20:44:51 GMT
NH was in charge of the spending. NH was also trying to cover his ass and blame everyone bit himself for our relegation out of league football.
PT probably does know he's better suited as a coach, hence not taking management jobs.
|
|
|
Post by Topper Gas on Feb 15, 2015 21:42:23 GMT
Overall charge perhaps but LL was DOF so surely in control of player recruitment?
|
|