faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Feb 12, 2015 15:51:51 GMT
In the right hands a potential money making machineWe have heard this talk for 4 years and Nick Higgs once described it as a cash cow but no one has ever been willing to provide any detail. I guess what you are saying is that there are people "in the know" who have all the details and are anxiously waiting for the stadium to be built so they can jump in and milk the cow ? But, as we've debated many times before, what is so special about this development which makes it so attractive ? The UWE already have their own facilities at the heart of the campus which are well established, well run and on the face of it bigger and better than anything included in the stadium plans ? Is anyone able to say why the Rovers facilities, within a football stadium on the edge of the campus, are so appealing ? I have very little idea of commercial property lease rates in South Gloucestershire but if the plan was to lease out the facilities what revenue would they yield ? Convenience store 5000 sq ft Gymnasium 13700 sq ft Teaching space 22750 sq ft The banqueting area could not be leased out because presumably the club would need it on match days and I'm unsure of what non match day revenue could be expected given the competing facilities nearby and the lack of experience in running conferences or other non-football related events in this market ? What actual net return will these facilities make, in hard cash, which enables them to be described as a money making machine ? Your concerns are perfectly valid, but it would surely be more than we currently get for not having those things. City seem to do ok out of their conference facilities too, and they are within a football stadium that's hardly central (and isn't as close to a major rail station as UWE).
Just as an example, the company I work for is moving to Emersons Green soon - we would want to make use of local conference facilities for user group meetings, and there's dozens of small to medium companies like us in the new Emersons Green business park and science park. None of this is quantitative I know, but it is an up and coming area for businesses.
I guess there's also the shape of the income. Football clubs have such variable earnings, some lower risk regular income would be invaluable for cashflow. Personally if I were in charge, on top of the above I would contract out as much as possible to concentrate on the core business - banqueting, catering, superstore, bars ('spoons would be perfect for the bar).
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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Feb 12, 2015 16:09:05 GMT
In the right hands a potential money making machineWe have heard this talk for 4 years and Nick Higgs once described it as a cash cow but no one has ever been willing to provide any detail. I guess what you are saying is that there are people "in the know" who have all the details and are anxiously waiting for the stadium to be built so they can jump in and milk the cow ? But, as we've debated many times before, what is so special about this development which makes it so attractive ? The UWE already have their own facilities at the heart of the campus which are well established, well run and on the face of it bigger and better than anything included in the stadium plans ? Is anyone able to say why the Rovers facilities, within a football stadium on the edge of the campus, are so appealing ? I have very little idea of commercial property lease rates in South Gloucestershire but if the plan was to lease out the facilities what revenue would they yield ? Convenience store 5000 sq ft Gymnasium 13700 sq ft Teaching space 22750 sq ft The banqueting area could not be leased out because presumably the club would need it on match days and I'm unsure of what non match day revenue could be expected given the competing facilities nearby and the lack of experience in running conferences or other non-football related events in this market ? What actual net return will these facilities make, in hard cash, which enables them to be described as a money making machine ? Your concerns are perfectly valid, but it would surely be more than we currently get for not having those things. City seem to do ok out of their conference facilities too, and they are within a football stadium that's hardly central (and isn't as close to a major rail station as UWE).
Just as an example, the company I work for is moving to Emersons Green soon - we would want to make use of local conference facilities for user group meetings, and there's dozens of small to medium companies like us in the new Emersons Green business park and science park. None of this is quantitative I know, but it is an up and coming area for businesses.
I guess there's also the shape of the income. Football clubs have such variable earnings, some lower risk regular income would be invaluable for cashflow. Personally if I were in charge, on top of the above I would contract out as much as possible to concentrate on the core business - banqueting, catering, superstore, bars ('spoons would be perfect for the bar).
I could suggest some conference facilities in the Emersons Green are but won't as I detest the people running it
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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Feb 12, 2015 16:13:07 GMT
In the right hands a potential money making machineWe have heard this talk for 4 years and Nick Higgs once described it as a cash cow but no one has ever been willing to provide any detail. I guess what you are saying is that there are people "in the know" who have all the details and are anxiously waiting for the stadium to be built so they can jump in and milk the cow ? But, as we've debated many times before, what is so special about this development which makes it so attractive ? The UWE already have their own facilities at the heart of the campus which are well established, well run and on the face of it bigger and better than anything included in the stadium plans ? Is anyone able to say why the Rovers facilities, within a football stadium on the edge of the campus, are so appealing ? I have very little idea of commercial property lease rates in South Gloucestershire but if the plan was to lease out the facilities what revenue would they yield ? Convenience store 5000 sq ft Gymnasium 13700 sq ft Teaching space 22750 sq ft The banqueting area could not be leased out because presumably the club would need it on match days and I'm unsure of what non match day revenue could be expected given the competing facilities nearby and the lack of experience in running conferences or other non-football related events in this market ? What actual net return will these facilities make, in hard cash, which enables them to be described as a money making machine ? I'm guessing Walsall had no experience of running conference facilities when they left Fellows Park (?) I guess you would've advised them never to have moved to the Bescot Stadium then?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 16:17:21 GMT
I've often wondered why the new stadium is viewed as such a Golden Ticket that makes the club so hugely attractive to investors who would flock to buy out the existing Directors, but sort of assumed there must be something I'm missing and / or that it was their conundrum. To my mind it would make the company the owners of a good stadium, with associated but not unique facilities, and an underperforming football club. Revenue stream wise, other than a restricted number of concerts per year, the stadium, as a sports ground, would largely be tied into hosting the football club. As a money generating development, per se, on that site, it's suboptimal (all that grass taking up space). For a football club, it's a huge improvement on the Mem, both in attracting people in, having the potential for bigger crowds should we ever have a team to attract them, and generating more (but probably not goldmine proportions) from non-football use of the facilities. If it's potential that would be for sale, we've already got that. For a start, fill the Mem: you run events, make sure you fill the venue. Also, regarding the product, try to run core activity such that we're at least in the football league. Flog that on, with or without development of a new stadium, and the company would be worth a damn site more than it is today. Not being tied in to a just built and option closing new facility might almost be seen as a benefit in the marketing. Revenue streams from a gym and convenience store et al are surely marginal. I know a family of 5 who no longer got to the Mem as in the dads words it is expensive to go and stand and probably get wet. We're (I'm) potentially going off topic here, but for a marginal increase on the spend to stand and probably get wet at the Mem, they could sit and stay dry at the Mem - potentially no more (maybe less) than it would cost to sit and stay dry at UWE. Is he then likely to say it's a lot of money to watch non-league football? Will the venue make that much difference to his decision? Would marketing, both publicity and pricing, help change his mind? I've never bought in to 'build it and they will come'. We've got miraculous attendances, but still a half empty stadium. Use it to practice filling a stadium, and we might know how to fill one twice the size when (if) we get one. It would also be all round beneficial financially and to general support and buy-in to a 'community club' in the meantime, whether we ever move or not. I've no doubt going to UWE would be a more attractive proposition than going to the Mem and it would be a far better facility for the club, but it's this all our troubles will vanish stance that I question. That's on top of what Swiss commented on re non-football activity (not necessarily) flooding the coffers: better than now, but as good as seems to be presumed?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 16:29:38 GMT
You're being silly now, have you learned nothing over the last 2 years. Debt free yes, assets none, either FL status or Conference plus invitation to invest how much, £20/30/40million to get an out of town stadium, who with enough money would be so totally dense!? The dream deal is, Sainsburys lose, we get compo max £5-£10million but my take is towards the lower end and we retain the Mem, pay off the finance company and hopefully someone pays NH some money for his shares and o/s loans to **** off into the sunset. Then we build a club to be proud of and hopefully we achieve success organically without loading ourselves up with debt...again; or we sell the Mem and enter into a ground share with Bath and invest the cash in the team. No you are going to have to explain how we will be asset less if we win the case against Sainsburys? We would then be entitled to approximately £30m, are you saying the debts to be repaid are £30m? That's before you get into the contract detail that will give x time to build the new stadium before vacating the Mem. I think we will win, but we'll get compensation and it won't be £30 million but it may be enough to leave us debt free...but you're right we will have an asset, the Mem. So we'll still be a non league or Div 4 outfit and who but a madman would invest anything like enough money to build a stadium.
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Alveston Gas
Brucie Bannister
Once a Gashead always a Gashead
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 746
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Post by Alveston Gas on Feb 12, 2015 16:30:22 GMT
Cobblers - you obviously don't know much about Steve Lansdown - that's not the way he operates. If he could own 2 clubs he would already have us in the Bristol Sports "Club" as he cant he just isn't interested in us.
Sometimes its really difficult to find the strength to reply .... but on this occasion ...
Where do I say he runs us as a club ..... ? He wouldn't and I haven't suggested it
I suggest he would sell us off piece by piece and get great delight in doing it..... i'm not sure the pieces would amount to much which is sad in itself.
Thank you for your insight though on the way Steve Lansdown operates .... and indeed his inner thought process. Good to know that there is a Gas head so close to him, we may need you one day.
Pleasant!
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Post by gasheadnaboo on Feb 12, 2015 16:32:22 GMT
I know a family of 5 who no longer got to the Mem as in the dads words it is expensive to go and stand and probably get wet. We're (I'm) potentially going off topic here, but for a marginal increase on the spend to stand and probably get wet at the Mem, they could sit and stay dry at the Mem - potentially no more (maybe less) than it would cost to sit and stay dry at UWE. Is he then likely to say it's a lot of money to watch non-league football? Will the venue make that much difference to his decision? Would marketing, both publicity and pricing, help change his mind? I've never bought in to 'build it and they will come'. We've got miraculous attendances, but still a half empty stadium. Use it to practice filling a stadium, and we might know how to fill one twice the size when (if) we get one. It would also be all round beneficial financially and to general support and buy-in to a 'community club' in the meantime, whether we ever move or not. I've no doubt going to UWE would be a more attractive proposition than going to the Mem and it would be a far better facility for the club, but it's this all our troubles will vanish stance that I question. That's on top of what Swiss commented on re non-football activity (not necessarily) flooding the coffers: better than now, but as good as seems to be presumed? My mates old man, who's getting on a bit now, exact words to me a few weeks ago "I would like to go back to watching Rovers, but the Mem's rubbish isn't it; I don't want to go there!" seems some the away trips back in our football league days ruined the Mem a bit for him
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 16:40:00 GMT
You're being silly now, have you learned nothing over the last 2 years. Debt free yes, assets none, either FL status or Conference plus invitation to invest how much, £20/30/40million to get an out of town stadium, who with enough money would be so totally dense!? The dream deal is, Sainsburys lose, we get compo max £5-£10million but my take is towards the lower end and we retain the Mem, pay off the finance company and hopefully someone pays NH some money for his shares and o/s loans to **** off into the sunset. Then we build a club to be proud of and hopefully we achieve success organically without loading ourselves up with debt...again; or we sell the Mem and enter into a ground share with Bath and invest the cash in the team. I think you misunderstand the writ. Rovers are attempting to get enforcement of the contract, plus damages from Sainsbury's for unnecessarily delaying fulfilment of the contract. So if successful, Rovers would receive approx. £30m plus damages and Sainsburys would become de facto owners of the Mem. We'll receive what the judge awards...if it's more than £5million we'll have something left over once we've paid off the debts.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 17:00:38 GMT
You're being silly now, have you learned nothing over the last 2 years. Debt free yes, assets none, either FL status or Conference plus invitation to invest how much, £20/30/40million to get an out of town stadium, who with enough money would be so totally dense!? The dream deal is, Sainsburys lose, we get compo max £5-£10million but my take is towards the lower end and we retain the Mem, pay off the finance company and hopefully someone pays NH some money for his shares and o/s loans to **** off into the sunset. Then we build a club to be proud of and hopefully we achieve success organically without loading ourselves up with debt...again; or we sell the Mem and enter into a ground share with Bath and invest the cash in the team. as usual monstermouth - you speak before you read properly - 'new stadium and associated assets' meaning a new 'state of the art' stadium plus all the associated benefits (look at the plans and see what comes with the stadium!) -and if you live in south glos - it is not out of town and with train and road network nearby a very well positioned 'stadium' (arena) with easy access to south wales and all of england. In the right hands a potential money making machine - believe me there are already several interested parties. I don't think anyone with money to invest in this hugely expensive scheme would share the information with you.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,263
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Post by kingswood Polak on Feb 12, 2015 17:33:49 GMT
Well I'd say IF that analysis is correct it just shows the massive logical error in the 'it's Nick Higgs club and he can do what he wants with it and therefore we should be grateful for him keeping it alive' argument. The problem there being that it ultimately isn't as we're mortgaged to the hilt in multiple directions and he hasn't because the club is now in an even more precarious position than it was before. Loading a club with more and more debt to it's directors and creditors is hardly keeping it alive - it's simply postponing the inevitable. Having excluded, marginalised and belittled alternative voices and taking a my way or the highway approach you can't then turn around and go 'help it's all gone wrong we all need to pull together'. That's my objection to the way the club has been run; according to a definition of leadership that says 'all hail the leader' and any dissenting voices should be crushed in a sea of paranoia. There is no alternative - except there is and has been consistently articulated; namely to run Bristol Rovers more like a club again not a malfunctioning business in an overcrowded market place. It was never a particularly easy way forward, nor always the most attractive one but the high risk approach we've pursued instead has always had the club's future dangling over a precipice. You can't have it all ways under the sun. If it's your club and you have decided to take a s*** or bust approach to it's future and you fail then surely it is only right that you are held accountable for that failure. On the other hand I truly hope this isn't a correct analysis and that everything works out because I quite like having a football club to support and I don't ultimately think Nick Higgs deserves to fail because I feel his heart is in the right place but his approach has been flawed. We have not cut our cloth; they have not attempted to run the club in any kind of sustainable way they've just launched a series of sustained gambles with ever decreasing odds of success. You can't then fall back on the fans if all that turns to dust having excluded so many in such a paranoid way. I don't believe NH heart is even in the right place. It's not so difficult to gamble with something you know you will get your stake money back on. Too many good people have been pushed away by the board and it will not sit well to turn to the fans yet again, not after the reissue of shares and too many other things to list.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,263
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Post by kingswood Polak on Feb 12, 2015 17:49:30 GMT
You're being silly now, have you learned nothing over the last 2 years. Debt free yes, assets none, either FL status or Conference plus invitation to invest how much, £20/30/40million to get an out of town stadium, who with enough money would be so totally dense!? The dream deal is, Sainsburys lose, we get compo max £5-£10million but my take is towards the lower end and we retain the Mem, pay off the finance company and hopefully someone pays NH some money for his shares and o/s loans to **** off into the sunset. Then we build a club to be proud of and hopefully we achieve success organically without loading ourselves up with debt...again; or we sell the Mem and enter into a ground share with Bath and invest the cash in the team. as usual monstermouth - you speak before you read properly - 'new stadium and associated assets' meaning a new 'state of the art' stadium plus all the associated benefits (look at the plans and see what comes with the stadium!) -and if you live in south glos - it is not out of town and with train and road network nearby a very well positioned 'stadium' (arena) with easy access to south wales and all of england. In the right hands a potential money making machine - believe me there are already several interested parties. It's too easy to say believe me. No one will say what they think they know. Then there is the disinformation placed by club mice who lurk on here.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,263
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Post by kingswood Polak on Feb 12, 2015 17:50:33 GMT
Does Geoff still have his shares? dinsdale as far as I am aware he hasn't sold his shares but we won't know until the next Annual Return (on directorships and shareholdings). In 2013 he transferred 50,000 shares each to Matthew and Peter Dunford. Oh good God. Heaven forbid more
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,263
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Post by kingswood Polak on Feb 12, 2015 17:54:05 GMT
1.2% per month seems an astounding rate of interest to be paying for a secured loan by a company owned by such wealthy businessmen. Are we absolutely sure the Dorset based people behind MSP Capital have no connection with Dorset based Harry Redknapp and the consortium he has been linked with which is seeking to buy a football club ? Is there not a possibility that a conversation went along the lines of "we can't determine exactly what we'll offer until you've sorted things out with Sainsburys but we'll loan you the money now to get you out of the sh*t if you agree to sell to us by the end of the year when the outcome is known and the price fixed" ? That might be described as a "waterboarded contract" That has my full attention. If only it were so. Please God
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Post by swissgas on Feb 12, 2015 21:53:30 GMT
In the right hands a potential money making machineWe have heard this talk for 4 years and Nick Higgs once described it as a cash cow but no one has ever been willing to provide any detail. I guess what you are saying is that there are people "in the know" who have all the details and are anxiously waiting for the stadium to be built so they can jump in and milk the cow ? But, as we've debated many times before, what is so special about this development which makes it so attractive ? The UWE already have their own facilities at the heart of the campus which are well established, well run and on the face of it bigger and better than anything included in the stadium plans ? Is anyone able to say why the Rovers facilities, within a football stadium on the edge of the campus, are so appealing ? I have very little idea of commercial property lease rates in South Gloucestershire but if the plan was to lease out the facilities what revenue would they yield ? Convenience store 5000 sq ft Gymnasium 13700 sq ft Teaching space 22750 sq ft The banqueting area could not be leased out because presumably the club would need it on match days and I'm unsure of what non match day revenue could be expected given the competing facilities nearby and the lack of experience in running conferences or other non-football related events in this market ? What actual net return will these facilities make, in hard cash, which enables them to be described as a money making machine ? I'm guessing Walsall had no experience of running conference facilities when they left Fellows Park (?) I guess you would've advised them never to have moved to the Bescot Stadium then? They may not have had experience but I should imagine they investigated the demand for those facilities, considered what competition they would face and calculated the cost of bringing in suitable people to run the facilities before launching into the project. When Rovers were planning to regenerate the Mem they brought in Pan Leisure as consultants to help them assess the revenue streams to be expected from the development. Nick Higgs himself told me they knew from the consultants report exactly how much revenue each square foot of space at the revamped stadium should generate. We couldn't help laughing at Rovers2's joke about "down the pan leisure" when it all went wrong but on the face of it that project appeared to be properly researched.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Feb 13, 2015 9:42:33 GMT
I think you misunderstand the writ. Rovers are attempting to get enforcement of the contract, plus damages from Sainsbury's for unnecessarily delaying fulfilment of the contract. So if successful, Rovers would receive approx. £30m plus damages and Sainsburys would become de facto owners of the Mem. We'll receive what the judge awards...if it's more than £5million we'll have something left over once we've paid off the debts. Why would the judge say, yes, Rovers are right, the contract is valid, and then not enforce the contract? Or are you talking about the damages for delay?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 12:07:33 GMT
In the right hands a potential money making machine - believe me there are already several interested parties. Then why is Higgs still hawking the investment opportunity in a middle eastern version of The Observer? Or do you mean that Rovers' directors are interested in taking the revenue producing facilities?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 12:26:36 GMT
In the right hands a potential money making machine - believe me there are already several interested parties. Then why is Higgs still hawking the investment opportunity in a middle eastern version of The Observer? Or do you mean that Rovers' directors are interested in taking the revenue producing facilities? is that a recent publication ? or just a silly rag read by ex pat's during a visit to the toilet
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 12:56:38 GMT
Then why is Higgs still hawking the investment opportunity in a middle eastern version of The Observer? Or do you mean that Rovers' directors are interested in taking the revenue producing facilities? is that a recent publication ? or just a silly rag read by ex pat's during a visit to the toilet If it's the latter then Higgs would have to be desperate to associate himself with it, wouldn't he?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 13:00:10 GMT
Maybe he was not "privy" to the type of mag his telephone interview was for ?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 13:07:17 GMT
Maybe he was not "privy" to the type of mag his telephone interview was for ? Yeah right, the bloke who won't even discuss if tea or coffee is drunk at meetings with Sainsbury's, due to 'confidentiality clauses', suddenly thinks it's a good idea to open his heart to some geezer on the phone without even bothering to ask for a copy of the publication or investigate its target readership? Oh, hang on, I see what you did there, humour. Very good.
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