baselswh
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Post by baselswh on Jun 22, 2022 10:58:28 GMT
Makes my East Terrace ST for next season look equally good value.
£315 ÷ 23 = £13.69 a game.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jun 22, 2022 13:00:13 GMT
Excellent - magnificent value!
I have a very belated couple of additions that occurred during my self-imposed forum exile before we close the book on this for the season.
Abbey Hey 5 AFC Bury 0 (which I think occurred some time in December). Abbey Hey in Gorton (most famous for being where Shameless is set) is my nearest pyramid club in Manchester. They play in the 2nd tier of the North West Counties League but had a very good season and made the playoffs. AFC Bury are obviously Bury's phoenix club and played at the same level (but in the parallel league as North West Counties is organised into a North and South division at that level) and easily won promotion. This was a very entertaining afternoon - it was an FA Vase game and this was the first game AFC Bury had ever lost and they got bang for thier buck in defeat! There were about 1000 Bury fans crammed into the small (but perfectly decent) Abbey Hey ground and they were utterly stunned as the homeside proceeded to completely play them off the park. I went with a mate who is a Bury fan and he was genuinely stunned. The quality of the football was fantastic though - it really made me think about how the quality of non-league football has improved so much in such a short space of time. I reckon £15 covered entry, a portion of chips and a couple of pints in the surprisingly nice Robinson's pub in Gorton on the way home. An excellent afternoon!
As a short follow-up. Something interesting is happening in local football up here. Obviously the stories of FC United and Salford are well-known for different reasons but obviously there's Bury now too, Abbey Hey are getting a reasonable crowds, West Didsbury and Chorlton have now taken up the hipster football mantle and are getting loads of fans down for craft beer/Chorltonista crowd and are really getting big numbers. They also got promoted this year and are definitely hiving off some of FC United's fanbase. Altrincham are attracting quite a similar kind of crowd. There is definitely a boom going on in non-league football in Greater Manchester among young people. I think part of it is just how distance United and City feel and people want to create something that feels more community orientated but it's really noticeable. I'd be interested to know if this is a national trend but, dare I say it, round here non-league football is becoming disturbingly trendy!
Speaking of FC United - they had an absolutely nothing season but had their first European success in winning the inaugral Fenix Trophy (as they absolutely should have done given the quality of the opposition). Details can be found here;
Basically it was a European competition between fan owned clubs with a finals day (involving all 8 sides) in Remini. Brilliant idea - even includes fans putting each other up for away trips. I briefly had a mad idea to go to the final but it didn't quite fit around work. However, it did give me my football highpoint of the year. FC played a side from Warsaw in February time and were 8-0 up after 15 minutes. Pretty sure I could have gotten a game for the Polish side - the striker was about 8 stone overweight and couldn't run and the goalie couldn't catch! However, they bought about 200-300 fans over and it was the weak of the Russian invasion of Ukraine so there were blue and yellow flare and mass singing of 'Putin is a w****r' as well as some very entertaining flags and banner. Plus, newsflash, Polish football fans like a beer so much fun was had well into the night! I think you're right Irish. Grass roots football appears to have increasing support and is becoming (somewhat embarrassingly) 'hipster'. From what I've witnessed this appears to be happening in Essex / north east London. I'll see you a West Didsbury and Chorlton (also attended by @chewbacca ) and raise you a Clapton Community FC! Cheaper. More fun. Your entrance fee and beer money helps support a community asset. I've really missed Saturday afternoons, a map, doing some research and seeking out a local match. Down in step 5 Essex Senior League, average attendance: Saffron Walden (fan owned) 309 Woodford Town 306 Walthamstow 239 Step 7 Clapton Community FC (fan owned) 316 "£15 covered entry, a portion of chips and a couple of pints". Or a trip to Arsenal / Spurs and not a lot of change out of £100. Yes - I'm familiar with Clapton. I know quite a few people who go regularly to watch them although I never made it myself.
Money is obviously a big part of it - it's really very difficult to watch a Premier League team week in week out unless you are pretty well off so it excludes quite a lot of young people who in previous generations would have been regular attendees at United and City. It's also clearly about the desire to form some kind of authentic feeling community. But I also think it's a backlash to how comically serious modern football has become. The fan culture I grew up with in the early 90s was quite irreverent and self-mocking. Ie. We accepted that what we were doing was a bit silly and a bit of a waste of time but that was part of the fun - there was a recognition that we were caring about something too much that ultimately didn't matter. There was a lot more irony and humour around being a football fan (Fanzines, Danny Baker's stuff, Fantasy Football etc - it mined the humour in the naffness of football first and foremost). Fan culture now is desperately humourless - everyone flies off the handle at the merest hint that 'their team' has somehow been wronged by referee/media/fans of other teams. Football fan culture comes across as so oversensitive. I head a phone-in the other day where the presenter would start virtually every point to a caller with 'no offence to Liverpool/United/Everton/Wolves but.....' etc because presumably they get such a backlash. Football has become an increasingly joyless world because the only joy that now seems valid is your team doing well and being respected for doing well. It never used to be like that.
So I think, for me and quite a lot of other people, non-league football is as much about making football fun again. The 'we're s**t and we know we are' attitude which seems to have vanished in the hyper-serious football world where football really has become too important to a lot of people's identity and people quote Shankly's life and death comment without understanding it was an ironic comment!
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baselswh
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Post by baselswh on Jun 22, 2022 15:43:43 GMT
I think this is a thing,although it's a feeling as much as known fact.
I'm getting the impression football may suffer a sort of 'segregation'.
Non league clubs picking up hipster fans eg.
Certain types being attracted to one club because someone grew a beard and claimed we are better at 'fun' than others.
Identity football.
Yuk!
God forbid we ever have a St Pauli or FC Leipzig.Unless we've already got a couple.
A couple of mates of mine went to a Clapton game.Came back smug.As if they had been drinking from the fountain of 'what football is'.
The pubs in Easton have different groups going to their group pub.Self-segregation.
Personally I prefer a pub that has a cross section of local regulars,from their political choices,to music taste etc etc.
Our football clubs are still 99% cross sections of people and long may it continue.
I'm no fan of FCs for gays only,or Lefties, or Righties (Italy) or Beardy happier people etc.Bloody awful.
Football should bring all sorts together and preferably on the same 11.
Our nation is divided enough without our football going the same way.
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Jun 23, 2022 8:43:30 GMT
I think this is a thing,although it's a feeling as much as known fact. I'm getting the impression football may suffer a sort of 'segregation'. Non league clubs picking up hipster fans eg. Certain types being attracted to one club because someone grew a beard and claimed we are better at 'fun' than others. Identity football. Yuk! God forbid we ever have a St Pauli or FC Leipzig.Unless we've already got a couple. A couple of mates of mine went to a Clapton game.Came back smug.As if they had been drinking from the fountain of 'what football is'. The pubs in Easton have different groups going to their group pub.Self-segregation. Personally I prefer a pub that has a cross section of local regulars,from their political choices,to music taste etc etc. Our football clubs are still 99% cross sections of people and long may it continue. I'm no fan of FCs for gays only,or Lefties, or Righties (Italy) or Beardy happier people etc.Bloody awful. Football should bring all sorts together and preferably on the same 11. Our nation is divided enough without our football going the same way. "God forbid we ever have a St Pauli or FC Leipzig" Do you mean "have a club like St Pauli or FC Leipzig in the EFL"? "Unless we've already got a couple". Who? And which Club in Leipzig are you referencing. RB Leipzig are hated as a plastic financially doped Club that has twisted German 'fan ownership' (51% rule) to the limit. FC Lokomotive Leipzig play in the Regionalliga Nordost in the 4th tier. Good to hear your mates enjoyed the Clapton game. Obviously this is nothing to do with Clapton Community FC which player in a lower division than Clapton, but with much bigger gates. I'd agree with your last sentence though. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jun 24, 2022 10:11:46 GMT
I think this is a thing,although it's a feeling as much as known fact. I'm getting the impression football may suffer a sort of 'segregation'. Non league clubs picking up hipster fans eg. Certain types being attracted to one club because someone grew a beard and claimed we are better at 'fun' than others. Identity football. Yuk! God forbid we ever have a St Pauli or FC Leipzig.Unless we've already got a couple. A couple of mates of mine went to a Clapton game.Came back smug.As if they had been drinking from the fountain of 'what football is'. The pubs in Easton have different groups going to their group pub.Self-segregation. Personally I prefer a pub that has a cross section of local regulars,from their political choices,to music taste etc etc. Our football clubs are still 99% cross sections of people and long may it continue. I'm no fan of FCs for gays only,or Lefties, or Righties (Italy) or Beardy happier people etc.Bloody awful. Football should bring all sorts together and preferably on the same 11. Our nation is divided enough without our football going the same way. Ultimately all football is identity football Bas. Football doesn't exist without people identifying with a club and that representing something more than themselves. We don't support Rovers for footballing reasons - we support them because they're part of how we identify ourselves. They represent something, that for one reason or another, we want to be attached to and it's often different to different people. The thing is that identities change (both among the clubs themselves, the individual people who follow them and the collective communities they represent). If you look at the history most clubs became successful because they were representatives of a certain segment of the community that wanted to have something to represent them in that sense. Sometimes it was local/regional but not always. Many clubs were religious or class based in origin and built out from there (or didn't in some cases). There's nothing particularly unusual about that process.
While I probably agree that in an ideal world football clubs would be unifying, the issue is more that many people are diassociating from the clubs themselves who they perceive as distant and fake. One of the main driving forces that has sustained FC United is older fans who were fed up with the lack of atmosphere at Old Trafford and wanted to recreate what they saw as an authentic atmosphere from the 70s/80s. There's a strong nostalgia about it all - the idea that football has changed for the worse for fans. That it's hard to form proper emotional connections with clubs that have become such plastic entities - that's the biggest driver of much of this. It's actually football clubs who have stopped caring about that community building role - not fans. It's been replaced by soulless generic branding.
I think the football hipster thing is a bit overrstated- it's not many people who fit the kind of Clapton bill but they're young and good at marketing and more often than not they're bringing in people who weren't previously going regularly so they tend to catch the attention. But attendances are rising at other types of non-league clubs as well - non-league football is booming. That's the more interesting thing from my point of view. To me the bigger issue is young people not getting into the habit of attending football. That's where the really massive problem lays for the future. EFL figures show that fanbases have been getting dramatically older over the last 10-15 years pretty much across the board. The habit is what sustains the game. It amazes me how few young people I know in Manchester go to watch anyone on any kind of regular basis. I know no one under the age of 40 who I would consider a 'regular' fan in the sense of attending game. Manchester is an extreme case I'll grant you but when I come back to Bristol and go and play cricket there are hardly any young people there going to watch City and Rovers regularly (15 years ago they nearly all did). That's a much bigger threat to the longer-term culture of football clubs than a few hipsters wanting to drink craft beer while watching their team because it's young people who drive the atmosphere and culture of clubs in the end.
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baselswh
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Post by baselswh on Jun 24, 2022 11:42:35 GMT
I think this is a thing,although it's a feeling as much as known fact. I'm getting the impression football may suffer a sort of 'segregation'. Non league clubs picking up hipster fans eg. Certain types being attracted to one club because someone grew a beard and claimed we are better at 'fun' than others. Identity football. Yuk! God forbid we ever have a St Pauli or FC Leipzig.Unless we've already got a couple. A couple of mates of mine went to a Clapton game.Came back smug.As if they had been drinking from the fountain of 'what football is'. The pubs in Easton have different groups going to their group pub.Self-segregation. Personally I prefer a pub that has a cross section of local regulars,from their political choices,to music taste etc etc. Our football clubs are still 99% cross sections of people and long may it continue. I'm no fan of FCs for gays only,or Lefties, or Righties (Italy) or Beardy happier people etc.Bloody awful. Football should bring all sorts together and preferably on the same 11. Our nation is divided enough without our football going the same way. Ultimately all football is identity football Bas. Football doesn't exist without people identifying with a club and that representing something more than themselves. We don't support Rovers for footballing reasons - we support them because they're part of how we identify ourselves. They represent something, that for one reason or another, we want to be attached to and it's often different to different people. The thing is that identities change (both among the clubs themselves, the individual people who follow them and the collective communities they represent). If you look at the history most clubs became successful because they were representatives of a certain segment of the community that wanted to have something to represent them in that sense. Sometimes it was local/regional but not always. Many clubs were religious or class based in origin and built out from there (or didn't in some cases). There's nothing particularly unusual about that process.
While I probably agree that in an ideal world football clubs would be unifying, the issue is more that many people are diassociating from the clubs themselves who they perceive as distant and fake. One of the main driving forces that has sustained FC United is older fans who were fed up with the lack of atmosphere at Old Trafford and wanted to recreate what they saw as an authentic atmosphere from the 70s/80s. There's a strong nostalgia about it all - the idea that football has changed for the worse for fans. That it's hard to form proper emotional connections with clubs that have become such plastic entities - that's the biggest driver of much of this. It's actually football clubs who have stopped caring about that community building role - not fans. It's been replaced by soulless generic branding.
I think the football hipster thing is a bit overrstated- it's not many people who fit the kind of Clapton bill but they're young and good at marketing and more often than not they're bringing in people who weren't previously going regularly so they tend to catch the attention. But attendances are rising at other types of non-league clubs as well - non-league football is booming. That's the more interesting thing from my point of view. To me the bigger issue is young people not getting into the habit of attending football. That's where the really massive problem lays for the future. EFL figures show that fanbases have been getting dramatically older over the last 10-15 years pretty much across the board. The habit is what sustains the game. It amazes me how few young people I know in Manchester go to watch anyone on any kind of regular basis. I know no one under the age of 40 who I would consider a 'regular' fan in the sense of attending game. Manchester is an extreme case I'll grant you but when I come back to Bristol and go and play cricket there are hardly any young people there going to watch City and Rovers regularly (15 years ago they nearly all did). That's a much bigger threat to the longer-term culture of football clubs than a few hipsters wanting to drink craft beer while watching their team because it's young people who drive the atmosphere and culture of clubs in the end.
Agreed on identifying with a fc Irish and yes it maybe for different reasons, for individuals. I get irritated and suspicious of the 'woke' phenomenon and would'nt want to see too much 'right on-ness' at Rovers.Just enough to be called sensible,but not the driving force seen eg in our UK comedy scene (fight back begun) or the disturbing nonsense at universities. It's interesting to hear about the "boom" in non EFL football.I would like to see a graph of say 5th to 10th tiers over the last ten years.Also and perhaps more so,the FCs that have seen the biggest gains and why they are on the up?Then the clubs struggling and why?It's been a frustration to me ,how efl attendances are almost a secret.You have to search them out nowadays but once upon a time they were always published next to the result.EFL or non EFL,it's fascinating to try and see why crowds are up or down,I'm very much into it. Your "boom" findings in non EFL.Was that mainly an average from say 100 fcs? How much difference to the average did eg Notts County,Stockport County,Wrexham and Macclesfield etc make? How many FCs that have never been EFL are enjoying a boom time eg? Yes,I think generally less youngsters play and attend football nowadays.Tis a concern. Although at Rovers,this last season did see more youngsters and families attend.It's the first time I've ever really noticed this and long may it continue.Tom Gorridge must take some credit for this.I think him and his team are trying to reach out to youngsters,families and ethnic minorities.Small steps,but if their success continues Rovers too may attract many more Gasheads. |
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Jun 25, 2022 7:32:36 GMT
I think this is a thing,although it's a feeling as much as known fact. I'm getting the impression football may suffer a sort of 'segregation'. Non league clubs picking up hipster fans eg. Certain types being attracted to one club because someone grew a beard and claimed we are better at 'fun' than others. Identity football. Yuk! God forbid we ever have a St Pauli or FC Leipzig.Unless we've already got a couple. A couple of mates of mine went to a Clapton game.Came back smug.As if they had been drinking from the fountain of 'what football is'. The pubs in Easton have different groups going to their group pub.Self-segregation. Personally I prefer a pub that has a cross section of local regulars,from their political choices,to music taste etc etc. Our football clubs are still 99% cross sections of people and long may it continue. I'm no fan of FCs for gays only,or Lefties, or Righties (Italy) or Beardy happier people etc.Bloody awful. Football should bring all sorts together and preferably on the same 11. Our nation is divided enough without our football going the same way. Ultimately all football is identity football Bas. Football doesn't exist without people identifying with a club and that representing something more than themselves. We don't support Rovers for footballing reasons - we support them because they're part of how we identify ourselves. They represent something, that for one reason or another, we want to be attached to and it's often different to different people. The thing is that identities change (both among the clubs themselves, the individual people who follow them and the collective communities they represent). If you look at the history most clubs became successful because they were representatives of a certain segment of the community that wanted to have something to represent them in that sense. Sometimes it was local/regional but not always. Many clubs were religious or class based in origin and built out from there (or didn't in some cases). There's nothing particularly unusual about that process.
While I probably agree that in an ideal world football clubs would be unifying, the issue is more that many people are diassociating from the clubs themselves who they perceive as distant and fake. One of the main driving forces that has sustained FC United is older fans who were fed up with the lack of atmosphere at Old Trafford and wanted to recreate what they saw as an authentic atmosphere from the 70s/80s. There's a strong nostalgia about it all - the idea that football has changed for the worse for fans. That it's hard to form proper emotional connections with clubs that have become such plastic entities - that's the biggest driver of much of this. It's actually football clubs who have stopped caring about that community building role - not fans. It's been replaced by soulless generic branding.
I think the football hipster thing is a bit overrstated- it's not many people who fit the kind of Clapton bill but they're young and good at marketing and more often than not they're bringing in people who weren't previously going regularly so they tend to catch the attention. But attendances are rising at other types of non-league clubs as well - non-league football is booming. That's the more interesting thing from my point of view. To me the bigger issue is young people not getting into the habit of attending football. That's where the really massive problem lays for the future. EFL figures show that fanbases have been getting dramatically older over the last 10-15 years pretty much across the board. The habit is what sustains the game. It amazes me how few young people I know in Manchester go to watch anyone on any kind of regular basis. I know no one under the age of 40 who I would consider a 'regular' fan in the sense of attending game. Manchester is an extreme case I'll grant you but when I come back to Bristol and go and play cricket there are hardly any young people there going to watch City and Rovers regularly (15 years ago they nearly all did). That's a much bigger threat to the longer-term culture of football clubs than a few hipsters wanting to drink craft beer while watching their team because it's young people who drive the atmosphere and culture of clubs in the end.
Great post Irish, I wish I'd written it. It also goes a long way to explaining my dis-association with Bristol Rovers FC at the moment. I think the identity, the soul of the Club has changed and I know I'm not alone in feeling that. Ironically the dilapidated Mem and the Blackthorn Terrace is one of the reasons the Club has kept it's identity. "Ragbag Rovers" is part of the DNA. To be more 'successful' we undoubtedly need a new stadium / totally refurbished Mem. Which paradoxically would make me less likely to go. Not that I'm going at the moment anyway. Not directly relevant but reminds me of Mark 8:36 “For how is a man benefited if he should gain the whole world and he should lose his soul?” |
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baselswh
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Post by baselswh on Jun 25, 2022 12:02:22 GMT
Ultimately all football is identity football Bas. Football doesn't exist without people identifying with a club and that representing something more than themselves. We don't support Rovers for footballing reasons - we support them because they're part of how we identify ourselves. They represent something, that for one reason or another, we want to be attached to and it's often different to different people. The thing is that identities change (both among the clubs themselves, the individual people who follow them and the collective communities they represent). If you look at the history most clubs became successful because they were representatives of a certain segment of the community that wanted to have something to represent them in that sense. Sometimes it was local/regional but not always. Many clubs were religious or class based in origin and built out from there (or didn't in some cases). There's nothing particularly unusual about that process.
While I probably agree that in an ideal world football clubs would be unifying, the issue is more that many people are diassociating from the clubs themselves who they perceive as distant and fake. One of the main driving forces that has sustained FC United is older fans who were fed up with the lack of atmosphere at Old Trafford and wanted to recreate what they saw as an authentic atmosphere from the 70s/80s. There's a strong nostalgia about it all - the idea that football has changed for the worse for fans. That it's hard to form proper emotional connections with clubs that have become such plastic entities - that's the biggest driver of much of this. It's actually football clubs who have stopped caring about that community building role - not fans. It's been replaced by soulless generic branding.
I think the football hipster thing is a bit overrstated- it's not many people who fit the kind of Clapton bill but they're young and good at marketing and more often than not they're bringing in people who weren't previously going regularly so they tend to catch the attention. But attendances are rising at other types of non-league clubs as well - non-league football is booming. That's the more interesting thing from my point of view. To me the bigger issue is young people not getting into the habit of attending football. That's where the really massive problem lays for the future. EFL figures show that fanbases have been getting dramatically older over the last 10-15 years pretty much across the board. The habit is what sustains the game. It amazes me how few young people I know in Manchester go to watch anyone on any kind of regular basis. I know no one under the age of 40 who I would consider a 'regular' fan in the sense of attending game. Manchester is an extreme case I'll grant you but when I come back to Bristol and go and play cricket there are hardly any young people there going to watch City and Rovers regularly (15 years ago they nearly all did). That's a much bigger threat to the longer-term culture of football clubs than a few hipsters wanting to drink craft beer while watching their team because it's young people who drive the atmosphere and culture of clubs in the end.
Great post Irish, I wish I'd written it. It also goes a long way to explaining my dis-association with Bristol Rovers FC at the moment. I think the identity, the soul of the Club has changed and I know I'm not alone in feeling that. Ironically the dilapidated Mem and the Blackthorn Terrace is one of the reasons the Club has kept it's identity. "Ragbag Rovers" is part of the DNA. To be more 'successful' we undoubtedly need a new stadium / totally refurbished Mem. Which paradoxically would make me less likely to go. Not that I'm going at the moment anyway. Not directly relevant but reminds me of Mark 8:36 “For how is a man benefited if he should gain the whole world and he should lose his soul?” I'm sure the Bible says things about forgiveness. New young fans and families attended last season. Joe's reign has seen good things happen at Rovers. |
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Jun 25, 2022 14:38:34 GMT
Great post Irish, I wish I'd written it. It also goes a long way to explaining my dis-association with Bristol Rovers FC at the moment. I think the identity, the soul of the Club has changed and I know I'm not alone in feeling that. Ironically the dilapidated Mem and the Blackthorn Terrace is one of the reasons the Club has kept it's identity. "Ragbag Rovers" is part of the DNA. To be more 'successful' we undoubtedly need a new stadium / totally refurbished Mem. Which paradoxically would make me less likely to go. Not that I'm going at the moment anyway. Not directly relevant but reminds me of Mark 8:36 “For how is a man benefited if he should gain the whole world and he should lose his soul?” I'm sure the Bible says things about forgiveness. New young fans and families attended last season. Joe's reign has seen good things happen at Rovers. The bible says a lot of things Basel, a lot of them self-contradictory. Some of the quotes (like the one I used) I find profound and enlightening. As for forgiveness. Wael for hiring a vicious thug as manager in the first place will take some doing. I don't see a mea culpa happening anytime soon. Barton - yes there is a path to forgiveness (not that he would give a s**t about what people like me think of him). An understanding of his own failings. Genuine remorse. Self awareness. An attempt to tackle his demons - anger management and his propensity for violence for starters. Sadly I haven't seen any evidence of this to date. Hey - maybe you are the better person for giving him a chance. |
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Post by baselswh on Jun 25, 2022 16:14:24 GMT
I'm sure the Bible says things about forgiveness. New young fans and families attended last season. Joe's reign has seen good things happen at Rovers. The bible says a lot of things Basel, a lot of them self-contradictory. Some of the quotes (like the one I used) I find profound and enlightening. As for forgiveness. Wael for hiring a vicious thug as manager in the first place will take some doing. I don't see a mea culpa happening anytime soon. Barton - yes there is a path to forgiveness (not that he would give a s**t about what people like me think of him). An understanding of his own failings. Genuine remorse. Self awareness. An attempt to tackle his demons - anger management and his propensity for violence for starters. Sadly I haven't seen any evidence of this to date. Hey - maybe you are the better person for giving him a chance. There are sinners everywhere Epping. Even in the non EFL game. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jun 28, 2022 11:08:53 GMT
Ultimately all football is identity football Bas. Football doesn't exist without people identifying with a club and that representing something more than themselves. We don't support Rovers for footballing reasons - we support them because they're part of how we identify ourselves. They represent something, that for one reason or another, we want to be attached to and it's often different to different people. The thing is that identities change (both among the clubs themselves, the individual people who follow them and the collective communities they represent). If you look at the history most clubs became successful because they were representatives of a certain segment of the community that wanted to have something to represent them in that sense. Sometimes it was local/regional but not always. Many clubs were religious or class based in origin and built out from there (or didn't in some cases). There's nothing particularly unusual about that process.
While I probably agree that in an ideal world football clubs would be unifying, the issue is more that many people are diassociating from the clubs themselves who they perceive as distant and fake. One of the main driving forces that has sustained FC United is older fans who were fed up with the lack of atmosphere at Old Trafford and wanted to recreate what they saw as an authentic atmosphere from the 70s/80s. There's a strong nostalgia about it all - the idea that football has changed for the worse for fans. That it's hard to form proper emotional connections with clubs that have become such plastic entities - that's the biggest driver of much of this. It's actually football clubs who have stopped caring about that community building role - not fans. It's been replaced by soulless generic branding.
I think the football hipster thing is a bit overrstated- it's not many people who fit the kind of Clapton bill but they're young and good at marketing and more often than not they're bringing in people who weren't previously going regularly so they tend to catch the attention. But attendances are rising at other types of non-league clubs as well - non-league football is booming. That's the more interesting thing from my point of view. To me the bigger issue is young people not getting into the habit of attending football. That's where the really massive problem lays for the future. EFL figures show that fanbases have been getting dramatically older over the last 10-15 years pretty much across the board. The habit is what sustains the game. It amazes me how few young people I know in Manchester go to watch anyone on any kind of regular basis. I know no one under the age of 40 who I would consider a 'regular' fan in the sense of attending game. Manchester is an extreme case I'll grant you but when I come back to Bristol and go and play cricket there are hardly any young people there going to watch City and Rovers regularly (15 years ago they nearly all did). That's a much bigger threat to the longer-term culture of football clubs than a few hipsters wanting to drink craft beer while watching their team because it's young people who drive the atmosphere and culture of clubs in the end.
Great post Irish, I wish I'd written it. It also goes a long way to explaining my dis-association with Bristol Rovers FC at the moment. I think the identity, the soul of the Club has changed and I know I'm not alone in feeling that. Ironically the dilapidated Mem and the Blackthorn Terrace is one of the reasons the Club has kept it's identity. "Ragbag Rovers" is part of the DNA. To be more 'successful' we undoubtedly need a new stadium / totally refurbished Mem. Which paradoxically would make me less likely to go. Not that I'm going at the moment anyway. Not directly relevant but reminds me of Mark 8:36 “For how is a man benefited if he should gain the whole world and he should lose his soul?” To me it's not really so much about Rovers (although inevitably it is a little bit). It's true I am currently disillusioned and disconnected over the Barton thing and am still struggling to care about the club at the moment but that's not really where this view comes from. It's bigger than that - it's to do with football culture and how it's evolved. Bas does have a point - when I talk about 'authenticity' it's easy to sound like a bit of a smug prat to people who don't buy into it to be honest and there is a fair criticism of football culture being taken over by a certain middle class aesthetic that's forever chasing 'the real thing' while not understanding how it's contributing to undermining it. I really do get that - I think that view is completely wrong for many reasons but I understand why people might feel that way.
However, from my experience it's the other way round. Football culture has gone from being about a certain self-knowing working class tribal stoicism and genuine wit (ie. WE know we're crap but don't YOU dare call us crap etc) to being infected by middle class entitlement and humourless tedious banter in which people get themselves in a raging lather over their football brand of choice being in any way 'disrespected'. It's like we've decided to double down on the worst, most narcisistic parts of being a football fan and discarded the fun stuff. That's what I find about modern football fandom - it's become increasingly joyless because only your team being successful is somehow allowed to bring you fun out of the game and there's an awful lot of the culture that's about rage, jealousy and contempt. A lot of fans don't even seem to really like footballers anymore - they seem to get their mains kicks out of hating the players (not just 1 or 2 pantomine villians but the majority of them) which I just can't get my head around. To use Bas's language, from my point of view it's actually mainstream football fan culture that's been infected by a humourless hypersensitive 'snowflake' identity mentality and it's because being a fan has increasingly become about 'my identity' rather than 'our identity' as a shared experience and everything about modern football reinforces that your football club allegiance is an extension of yourself. So when your team does badly/gets decisions go against it/is mocked by rival fans etc many fans feel personally attacked.
It's football clubs as brands - people have allegiances to brands because it's about them wanting to say something about themselves, it's about them as an individual and there's increasingly less 'us' involved. In that environment I don't think it's surprising that some people might want to try and get that idea of football supporting being more of a collective thing back - that's what I see these trends as being about and it varies enormously from club to club (Clapton are a very different entity to FC United for example). And it's not a particular dig at Rovers- Rovers are probably better than most in this respect but it's still the case that (like pretty much every other club in the league) we're a brand now more than a club. It's not about whether Wael is a good owner or not (I think he basically seems to be OK) it's that club football is now basically a rich man's play thing in which the fans are nothing more than customers like any other business. Therefore whether our club does well or not, whether it thrives or not, is entirely at the behest of the owner. I'm not saying there was some golden age of fan influence - there never was. But there is a tipping point and increasingly I feel like we are just 'cheering for laundry'. The Barton thing accelerated that feeling but I've felt like that for years. Anything that tries to counteract that trend strikes me as a good thing and is closer to the kind of football culture that I can relate to - that's appeals to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2022 19:03:24 GMT
I think this is a thing,although it's a feeling as much as known fact. I'm getting the impression football may suffer a sort of 'segregation'. Non league clubs picking up hipster fans eg. Certain types being attracted to one club because someone grew a beard and claimed we are better at 'fun' than others. Identity football. Yuk! God forbid we ever have a St Pauli or FC Leipzig.Unless we've already got a couple. A couple of mates of mine went to a Clapton game.Came back smug.As if they had been drinking from the fountain of 'what football is'. The pubs in Easton have different groups going to their group pub.Self-segregation. Personally I prefer a pub that has a cross section of local regulars,from their political choices,to music taste etc etc. Our football clubs are still 99% cross sections of people and long may it continue. I'm no fan of FCs for gays only,or Lefties, or Righties (Italy) or Beardy happier people etc.Bloody awful. Football should bring all sorts together and preferably on the same 11. Our nation is divided enough without our football going the same way. Complete nonsense |
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baselswh
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Post by baselswh on Jul 2, 2022 19:24:33 GMT
I think this is a thing,although it's a feeling as much as known fact. I'm getting the impression football may suffer a sort of 'segregation'. Non league clubs picking up hipster fans eg. Certain types being attracted to one club because someone grew a beard and claimed we are better at 'fun' than others. Identity football. Yuk! God forbid we ever have a St Pauli or FC Leipzig.Unless we've already got a couple. A couple of mates of mine went to a Clapton game.Came back smug.As if they had been drinking from the fountain of 'what football is'. The pubs in Easton have different groups going to their group pub.Self-segregation. Personally I prefer a pub that has a cross section of local regulars,from their political choices,to music taste etc etc. Our football clubs are still 99% cross sections of people and long may it continue. I'm no fan of FCs for gays only,or Lefties, or Righties (Italy) or Beardy happier people etc.Bloody awful. Football should bring all sorts together and preferably on the same 11. Our nation is divided enough without our football going the same way. Complete nonsense Fair enough, opinions and all that. Did you make it back to a Rovers game last season,or are you still burning on the cross of non attendance martyrdom? |
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Post by swissgas on Jul 2, 2022 19:41:54 GMT
Fair enough, opinions and all that. Did you make it back to a Rovers game last season,or are you still burning on the cross of non attendance martyrdom? He’s with me in the convent Bas. Had to prove I wasn’t pregnant before they’d let me in. ( I blame McDonalds)  |
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baselswh
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Post by baselswh on Jul 2, 2022 20:48:33 GMT
Fair enough, opinions and all that. Did you make it back to a Rovers game last season,or are you still burning on the cross of non attendance martyrdom? He’s with me in the convent Bas. Had to prove I wasn’t pregnant before they’d let me in. ( I blame McDonalds) 🙂 Old Mac,hes got alot to answer for Swiss! |
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Post by swissgas on Jul 3, 2022 0:12:03 GMT
He’s with me in the convent Bas. Had to prove I wasn’t pregnant before they’d let me in. ( I blame McDonalds)  🙂 Old Mac,hes got alot to answer for Swiss! I knew him when he only had a farm. |
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Post by swissgas on Jul 3, 2022 2:09:22 GMT
Great post Irish, I wish I'd written it. It also goes a long way to explaining my dis-association with Bristol Rovers FC at the moment. I think the identity, the soul of the Club has changed and I know I'm not alone in feeling that. Ironically the dilapidated Mem and the Blackthorn Terrace is one of the reasons the Club has kept it's identity. "Ragbag Rovers" is part of the DNA. To be more 'successful' we undoubtedly need a new stadium / totally refurbished Mem. Which paradoxically would make me less likely to go. Not that I'm going at the moment anyway. Not directly relevant but reminds me of Mark 8:36 “For how is a man benefited if he should gain the whole world and he should lose his soul?” To me it's not really so much about Rovers (although inevitably it is a little bit). It's true I am currently disillusioned and disconnected over the Barton thing and am still struggling to care about the club at the moment but that's not really where this view comes from. It's bigger than that - it's to do with football culture and how it's evolved. Bas does have a point - when I talk about 'authenticity' it's easy to sound like a bit of a smug prat to people who don't buy into it to be honest and there is a fair criticism of football culture being taken over by a certain middle class aesthetic that's forever chasing 'the real thing' while not understanding how it's contributing to undermining it. I really do get that - I think that view is completely wrong for many reasons but I understand why people might feel that way.
However, from my experience it's the other way round. Football culture has gone from being about a certain self-knowing working class tribal stoicism and genuine wit (ie. WE know we're crap but don't YOU dare call us crap etc) to being infected by middle class entitlement and humourless tedious banter in which people get themselves in a raging lather over their football brand of choice being in any way 'disrespected'. It's like we've decided to double down on the worst, most narcisistic parts of being a football fan and discarded the fun stuff. That's what I find about modern football fandom - it's become increasingly joyless because only your team being successful is somehow allowed to bring you fun out of the game and there's an awful lot of the culture that's about rage, jealousy and contempt. A lot of fans don't even seem to really like footballers anymore - they seem to get their mains kicks out of hating the players (not just 1 or 2 pantomine villians but the majority of them) which I just can't get my head around. To use Bas's language, from my point of view it's actually mainstream football fan culture that's been infected by a humourless hypersensitive 'snowflake' identity mentality and it's because being a fan has increasingly become about 'my identity' rather than 'our identity' as a shared experience and everything about modern football reinforces that your football club allegiance is an extension of yourself. So when your team does badly/gets decisions go against it/is mocked by rival fans etc many fans feel personally attacked.
It's football clubs as brands - people have allegiances to brands because it's about them wanting to say something about themselves, it's about them as an individual and there's increasingly less 'us' involved. In that environment I don't think it's surprising that some people might want to try and get that idea of football supporting being more of a collective thing back - that's what I see these trends as being about and it varies enormously from club to club (Clapton are a very different entity to FC United for example). And it's not a particular dig at Rovers- Rovers are probably better than most in this respect but it's still the case that (like pretty much every other club in the league) we're a brand now more than a club. It's not about whether Wael is a good owner or not (I think he basically seems to be OK) it's that club football is now basically a rich man's play thing in which the fans are nothing more than customers like any other business. Therefore whether our club does well or not, whether it thrives or not, is entirely at the behest of the owner. I'm not saying there was some golden age of fan influence - there never was. But there is a tipping point and increasingly I feel like we are just 'cheering for laundry'. The Barton thing accelerated that feeling but I've felt like that for years. Anything that tries to counteract that trend strikes me as a good thing and is closer to the kind of football culture that I can relate to - that's appeals to me.
One of my major disappointments at Rovers has been the gradual transfer of allegiance from the club itself to the individual owner so that for many Gasheads the classing of an owner as a custodian no longer applies. I don’t think use of the term “Brand” is a bad thing because in many ways the brand is synonymous with the club and not the person who happens to be the owner or manager at any particular time. To define the brand/club we need to consider Shared Experiences, Achievements and Traditions and every Rovers fan will have their own idea of what those constitute. For me the experiences include being in a crowd of 35000 at Eastville with my Dad and my Mum’s four surviving brothers at the Arsenal cup game in 1967 and being at Wembley in 2007 with my two sons. We must ensure that Rovers are still around so that future generations are able to enjoy similar experiences. The achievements include the game at Southend in 1974 when we clinched promotion to the second tier and the second promotion to the same level in 1990. We must work to better those achievements. The traditions were drummed into me as a kid and have remained ever since. We were an established second tier club in the 1950’s and one of our best players, Harry Bamford, was tragically killed but is remembered through a trophy awarded for sportsmanship. We must strive to maintain that tradition. The key word though is sharing and I think that is what is often missing in the game today. Too many owners treat it as a private fiefdom and operate with complete opacity. They demand absolute deference but, disappointingly, many supporters seem to enjoy this dictatorship model and are quick to defend it. But there is hope for change because some enlightened owners are realizing that they have a better chance of achieving their goals if they are transparent and willing to share their vision with stakeholders. I’m not talking about fan ownership but a concept where the major financial investors retain control and responsibility but also allow genuine participation. It seems the new Wycombe and Swindon owners are already working along these lines and in the US, outside the MLS, many privately controlled clubs are seriously pursuing community, sponsor and fan involvement as one of their top priorities. We are not going back to the cloth caps, the smoky haze, lukewarm tea, rock hard pies or fighting and brawling and there might never have been a golden age of fan influence. But for business reasons there could be one coming in the future and it might be something worth sharing. |
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baselswh
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Post by baselswh on Jul 3, 2022 7:58:01 GMT
Great post Irish, I wish I'd written it. It also goes a long way to explaining my dis-association with Bristol Rovers FC at the moment. I think the identity, the soul of the Club has changed and I know I'm not alone in feeling that. Ironically the dilapidated Mem and the Blackthorn Terrace is one of the reasons the Club has kept it's identity. "Ragbag Rovers" is part of the DNA. To be more 'successful' we undoubtedly need a new stadium / totally refurbished Mem. Which paradoxically would make me less likely to go. Not that I'm going at the moment anyway. Not directly relevant but reminds me of Mark 8:36 “For how is a man benefited if he should gain the whole world and he should lose his soul?” To me it's not really so much about Rovers (although inevitably it is a little bit). It's true I am currently disillusioned and disconnected over the Barton thing and am still struggling to care about the club at the moment but that's not really where this view comes from. It's bigger than that - it's to do with football culture and how it's evolved. Bas does have a point - when I talk about 'authenticity' it's easy to sound like a bit of a smug prat to people who don't buy into it to be honest and there is a fair criticism of football culture being taken over by a certain middle class aesthetic that's forever chasing 'the real thing' while not understanding how it's contributing to undermining it. I really do get that - I think that view is completely wrong for many reasons but I understand why people might feel that way.
However, from my experience it's the other way round. Football culture has gone from being about a certain self-knowing working class tribal stoicism and genuine wit (ie. WE know we're crap but don't YOU dare call us crap etc) to being infected by middle class entitlement and humourless tedious banter in which people get themselves in a raging lather over their football brand of choice being in any way 'disrespected'. It's like we've decided to double down on the worst, most narcisistic parts of being a football fan and discarded the fun stuff. That's what I find about modern football fandom - it's become increasingly joyless because only your team being successful is somehow allowed to bring you fun out of the game and there's an awful lot of the culture that's about rage, jealousy and contempt. A lot of fans don't even seem to really like footballers anymore - they seem to get their mains kicks out of hating the players (not just 1 or 2 pantomine villians but the majority of them) which I just can't get my head around. To use Bas's language, from my point of view it's actually mainstream football fan culture that's been infected by a humourless hypersensitive 'snowflake' identity mentality and it's because being a fan has increasingly become about 'my identity' rather than 'our identity' as a shared experience and everything about modern football reinforces that your football club allegiance is an extension of yourself. So when your team does badly/gets decisions go against it/is mocked by rival fans etc many fans feel personally attacked.
It's football clubs as brands - people have allegiances to brands because it's about them wanting to say something about themselves, it's about them as an individual and there's increasingly less 'us' involved. In that environment I don't think it's surprising that some people might want to try and get that idea of football supporting being more of a collective thing back - that's what I see these trends as being about and it varies enormously from club to club (Clapton are a very different entity to FC United for example). And it's not a particular dig at Rovers- Rovers are probably better than most in this respect but it's still the case that (like pretty much every other club in the league) we're a brand now more than a club. It's not about whether Wael is a good owner or not (I think he basically seems to be OK) it's that club football is now basically a rich man's play thing in which the fans are nothing more than customers like any other business. Therefore whether our club does well or not, whether it thrives or not, is entirely at the behest of the owner. I'm not saying there was some golden age of fan influence - there never was. But there is a tipping point and increasingly I feel like we are just 'cheering for laundry'. The Barton thing accelerated that feeling but I've felt like that for years. Anything that tries to counteract that trend strikes me as a good thing and is closer to the kind of football culture that I can relate to - that's appeals to me.
A "collective thing". I think we still have that at Rovers Irish. There's the loyal 6000 to 7000,plus the new and occasional. Quite a happy bunch. I think WAQ struck gold (eventually) with JB and now we're on a journey.The one man Boss (a dictatorship,see Swiss post). This journey has so far been the classic Rovers 'rollercoaster'. At the beginning it was bloody miserable,but then,it got worse. Relegation back to the 4th tier etc. Then a thoroughly disapointing start to the 4th tier season.Gasheads still turned up though,maybe 6000-ish. At last things turned around and we got better.Then we got better some more until from out of 'nowhere' ,Joe and Co gave Gasheads a most sensational end to a season.This final chapter of 2021/22 season goes down not only in Rovers history, but football history. Rovers made international news! I wonder if Joe would of got the job if a committee of Chairman, Directors and Fans Directors had made the decision? I think they would of sacked him after the Swindon Mem defeat, bitten his hand off after the offer of resignation was made! Wael made a great call,kept him on and Rovers made history. There was very much a togetherness at the Mem in the second half of the season.Usual of course,we were winning.🙂 "A collective". There's much to be positive about at the Gas right now. The middle class entitlement and boring humour you mention,I don't really see much of it at Rovers.I mean 7000 of them have been attending for decades.Old gallows humour jokes (score from a corner,we never score from a corner),yeh,but it's not the same as hearing sofa Sky dish fans discuss Liverpool, Man Utd and the rest of them.I find their chit chat often irritating and you see what a poor view they actually have from the sofa. I believe in a cross section of people attending,playing and coaching at a fc. It may be hard going at times and I appreciate people have differing levels of what they can take,but I hope FCs,unlike many pubs eg,remain largely public. All the public. To add,i think Gasheads are entitled to really want some success and after lifetimes of well,not even getting close,we can get somewhere near our potential. From what you've 'said',I don't think Rovers fit what disapoints you about the game,think you may of more or less pointed that out. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2022 8:03:01 GMT
Ah, so a thread about going different places to watch football has now been hijacked and turned into another Barton propaganda push.
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oldie
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Post by oldie on Jul 6, 2022 8:40:15 GMT
Ah, so a thread about going different places to watch football has now been hijacked and turned into another Barton propaganda push. Only from one man |
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