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Post by onedaytheuwe on Sept 21, 2014 10:10:45 GMT
Bridgeman
I totally agree with most of your comments and the 'green light' from the S.O.S would strengthen our case. Perhaps Sainsburys are awaiting the final say from him which I understand could take up to 3 months. However: I don:t understand your comment ' we get to keep the mem". Surely if Sainsbury:s are forced to pay out in full. We will move to the UWE and they will re-sell the land at a knock down price.
Personally: I think a deal will be reached which will offer a fee in part. Not enough to fund the UWE but maybe enough to clear our debts and keep the board happy. Rebuilding the MEM in bits will be the next goal..
Realistically I think that is the fight now. A best possible outcome in a dire situation ( BUT NO UWE).
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Post by ellington on Sept 21, 2014 10:55:10 GMT
Bridgeman I totally agree with most of your comments and the 'green light' from the S.O.S would strengthen our case. Perhaps Sainsburys are awaiting the final say from him which I understand could take up to 3 months. However: I don:t understand your comment ' we get to keep the mem". Surely if Sainsbury:s are forced to pay out in full. We will move to the UWE and they will re-sell the land at a knock down price. Personally: I think a deal will be reached which will offer a fee in part. Not enough to fund the UWE but maybe enough to clear our debts and keep the board happy. Rebuilding the MEM in bits will be the next goal.. Realistically I think that is the fight now. A best possible outcome in a dire situation ( BUT NO UWE). The best possible outcome is a new stadium, this isn't dead in the water yet.
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dagnogo
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 872
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Post by dagnogo on Sept 21, 2014 11:07:16 GMT
I can see a out of court settlement comming on this one Would seem the likely outcome. 50% would do nicely Then who do we sell the Mem to? No supermarket would take a punt after that. Or is it that the board getting the money they wasted back and that's more important?
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GasHeadGaz
Vita Astafjevs
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 518
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Post by GasHeadGaz on Sept 21, 2014 11:13:10 GMT
Would seem the likely outcome. 50% would do nicely Then who do we sell the Mem to? No supermarket would take a punt after that. Or is it that the board getting the money they wasted back and that's more important? 50% of £38M I think it was, is £19M. More than enough to tidy up The Mem. We'll get nowhere near that though in compensation.
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Thatslife
"Decisions are made by those who turn up"
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 669
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Post by Thatslife on Sept 21, 2014 11:18:15 GMT
It's all or nothing. If we are right Sainsburys pay in full. If we are not we get nowt. What use is half, we still can't get the UWE, and we will die at the Mem. That's life, Sainsburys are not in court. What makes you think they are? Why isn't there a court case pending? Perhaps it's because it will not be fought. Sainsburys didn't expect us to take them on. They might, just might have decided the bad publicity etc that would be generated , is just not worth it. If we get half then all sorts of possibilities exist, we could find another buyer and use the money to give a large discount on the Mem, we could use it to re-furbish the Mem etc etc. A Writ is a legal order to make something happen, if Sainsburys are served with a writ, they cannot ignore it and must comply with or address the issue.
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dagnogo
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 872
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Post by dagnogo on Sept 21, 2014 11:18:49 GMT
Tidying up the Mem won't turn an annual loss into a profit, as the UWE was meant to. I agree, we're not going to get £19m in a month of Sundays.
That said, if they got just enough to pay back the debts they so helpfully accrued with their shocking mismanagement, and then let someone else take over a debt free club, I'd take that, because even with the UWE, these owners are a clear and present danger to BRFC.
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Thatslife
"Decisions are made by those who turn up"
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 669
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Post by Thatslife on Sept 21, 2014 11:32:31 GMT
Some legal information which may explain some things, or maybe confuse some things, a quote from a legal firm :-
"Situations change. Given the current economic climate – where strikes, bail-outs, insolvencies and defaults are seemingly rife – is there a way to extricate yourself from a contract which has turned sour?
As many people know, the law does not allow a party to revoke an agreement because it’s become a bad bargain and, generally, unanticipated events will not allow a party to avoid its contractual obligations. The first port of call, however, is to examine the detail of the contract to establish whether there are any provisions which may allow termination. In exceptional circumstances, there are two recognised escape routes: force majeure and frustration.
Force Majeure
External, unpredictable and irresistible is how force majeure is defined in the civil law country of France. It is designed to describe a situation whereby circumstances outside of either party’s control have changed so radically that it is impossible to perform their contractual obligations. Neither party is at fault, so neither party can be liable for the failure to perform.
Force majeure is an import, not a common law concept recognised in England and Wales, so an express written provision in the contract is required. The clause will need to be specific (a clause stating “the usual force majeure clauses shall apply” was held to be void due to lack of certainty), but not too cumbersome. It will need to be detailed, but not too exhaustive so as to exclude events not referred to. These are some common events listed as force majeure:
•War •Famine •Strike •Act of God •Explosion •Civil unrest •Terrorism •Tectonic activity •Changes in legislation (for example, if an element of the contract becomes illegal to perform) Often the question arises as to whether a change in economic or market circumstances would be an acceptable example of a force majeure event. The answer generally is no".
Frustrated?
A contract is frustrated (and automatically terminated) when an event:
•Occurs after the contract has been formed •Is so fundamental as to be regarded by the law both as striking at the root of the contract and as entirely beyond what was contemplated by the parties when they entered the contract •Is not due to the fault of either party •Renders further performance impossible, illegal or makes it radically different from that contemplated by the parties at the time of the contract Events which delay performance – such as strikes – rather than alter them cannot generally amount to frustration, although if the delay is particularly protracted or if it makes the performance of the contract impossible, frustration may exist. Whether the potential collapse of the euro would surmount to a frustrating event is uncertain.
The legal consequences of frustration are similar to force majeure above, however, frustration is a common law principle and therefore the parties may be able to terminate the contract without any express provisions so to do. As a general rule of thumb though, frustration is more difficult to establish.
In conclusion
It is not easy to extract oneself from a contract. However in extreme circumstances, depending on the terms of the contract, there may be costless methods. These will depend on what has been agreed.
Finally, a termination clause could be drafted into an agreement which gives an unfettered discretion to terminate, but care should be taken when exercising this option and legal advice should be sought. There are many hidden surprises waiting in the wings.
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GasHeadGaz
Vita Astafjevs
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 518
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Post by GasHeadGaz on Sept 21, 2014 11:37:31 GMT
Tidying up the Mem won't turn an annual loss into a profit, as the UWE was meant to. I agree, we're not going to get £19m in a month of Sundays. That said, if they got just enough to pay back the debts they so helpfully accrued with their shocking mismanagement, and then let someone else take over a debt free club, I'd take that, because even with the UWE, these owners are a clear and present danger to BRFC. "Tidying up the Mem won't turn an annual loss into a profit" You can't say that for sure. History has proved, build a decent stadium & the fans will come. Also with the new stands come new hospitality & corporate chances. I think our debt is circa £8M. Most, if not all is owed to our directors, we have very little external debt. NH has said he would listen to offers.
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dagnogo
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 872
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Post by dagnogo on Sept 21, 2014 11:44:53 GMT
Tidying up the Mem won't turn an annual loss into a profit, as the UWE was meant to. I agree, we're not going to get £19m in a month of Sundays. That said, if they got just enough to pay back the debts they so helpfully accrued with their shocking mismanagement, and then let someone else take over a debt free club, I'd take that, because even with the UWE, these owners are a clear and present danger to BRFC. "Tidying up the Mem won't turn an annual loss into a profit" You can't say that for sure. History has proved, build a decent stadium & the fans will come. Also with the new stands come new hospitality & corporate chances. I think our debt is circa £8M. Most, if not all is owed to our directors, we have very little external debt. NH has said he would listen to offers. The issue is that the Mem site is too small. Not to mention the costs of another round of legal proceedings once the NIMBYs get their teeth into us again. I guess we could build a permanent South Stand, but the East and North ends aren't fit for purpose. That said, we're not getting £19m anyway. Plus, I'm not certain that the price was as high as £38m in the first place.
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GasHeadGaz
Vita Astafjevs
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 518
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Post by GasHeadGaz on Sept 21, 2014 11:48:16 GMT
"Tidying up the Mem won't turn an annual loss into a profit" You can't say that for sure. History has proved, build a decent stadium & the fans will come. Also with the new stands come new hospitality & corporate chances. I think our debt is circa £8M. Most, if not all is owed to our directors, we have very little external debt. NH has said he would listen to offers. The issue is that the Mem site is too small. Not to mention the costs of another round of legal proceedings once the NIMBYs get their teeth into us again. I guess we could build a permanent South Stand, but the East and North ends aren't fit for purpose. That said, we're not getting £19m anyway... "That said, we're not getting £19m anyway..." Nope, it's going to be £30M plus change...
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womble
Arthur Cartlidge
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 300
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Post by womble on Sept 21, 2014 11:57:05 GMT
It should be relatively straightforward, if required, to re-new the permission for redeveloping the Mem. There is still a massive demand for student accommodation in Bristol as both universities are still increasing their intakes.
While clearly.second best to UWE, our original plan A could still be a useful plan B. With safe standing at one end we could be looking at a capacity of around 20,000, but obviously without the possibility for expansion that UWE gives us.
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Thatslife
"Decisions are made by those who turn up"
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 669
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Post by Thatslife on Sept 21, 2014 12:10:56 GMT
The issue is that the Mem site is too small. Not to mention the costs of another round of legal proceedings once the NIMBYs get their teeth into us again. I guess we could build a permanent South Stand, but the East and North ends aren't fit for purpose. That said, we're not getting £19m anyway... "That said, we're not getting £19m anyway..." Nope, it's going to be £30M plus change... This figure comes from? ??
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GasHeadGaz
Vita Astafjevs
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 518
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Post by GasHeadGaz on Sept 21, 2014 12:13:53 GMT
"That said, we're not getting £19m anyway..." Nope, it's going to be £30M plus change... This figure comes from? ?? What Sainsbury were originally going to give us for The Mem site!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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dagnogo
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 872
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Post by dagnogo on Sept 21, 2014 12:19:26 GMT
Wasn't it nearer £20m?
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GasHeadGaz
Vita Astafjevs
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 518
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Post by GasHeadGaz on Sept 21, 2014 12:25:31 GMT
Could you then answer how Higgs has f**ked up RE:The UWE? With respect........ Check out the writ and the thread that explored the subject at some length. Seriously? I showed you up last night, I can't be arsed to do it again. Have fun though.
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Post by Topper Gas on Sept 21, 2014 13:01:04 GMT
If we can get say £15m compo from Sainsbury's could we then sell the Mem for £10m and still build the UWE? If so, everyone's a winner, Sainsbury's can walk away at half the cost of buying the Mem and we can still build the UWE.
Another solution is getting an investor to meet any shortfall.
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
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GasHeadGaz
Vita Astafjevs
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 518
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Post by GasHeadGaz on Sept 21, 2014 13:04:08 GMT
If we can get say £15m compo from Sainsbury's could we then sell the Mem for £10m and still build the UWE? If so, everyone's a winner, Sainsbury's can walk away at half the cost of buying the Mem and we can still build the UWE. Another solution is getting an investor to meet any shortfall. Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk Can't say Sainsbury is a winner. Splashing out £15M for nothing.
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brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
No Buy . . . No Sell!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,293
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Post by brizzle on Sept 21, 2014 15:29:35 GMT
If we can get say £15m compo from Sainsbury's could we then sell the Mem for £10m and still build the UWE? If so, everyone's a winner, Sainsbury's can walk away at half the cost of buying the Mem and we can still build the UWE. Another solution is getting an investor to meet any shortfall. Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk Can't say Sainsbury is a winner. Splashing out £15M for nothing. I think that we'll all just have to wait and see, and I post that as a supporter of BRFC. Once anything gets into the hands of the legal eagles, well who knows? But it's safe to say that all bets are off. But I remain quietly confident, and a trifle optimistic.
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Thatslife
"Decisions are made by those who turn up"
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 669
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Post by Thatslife on Sept 21, 2014 15:45:53 GMT
Can't say Sainsbury is a winner. Splashing out £15M for nothing. I think that we'll all just have to wait and see, and I post that as a supporter of BRFC. Once anything gets into the hands of the legal eagles, well who knows? But it's safe to say that all bets are off. But I remain quietly confident, and a trifle optimistic. So do I, foolish maybe but after supporting them for 57 years something MUST go right sometime !
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 16:11:20 GMT
I really cannot see any other supermarket chain now wanting to buy the Mem, why would they ? There would be constant harrassment from various pressure groups against the planning process. Our best hope is that the Government Inspector who will have to consider the appeal to prolong the delivery times to the proposed Sainsbury site upholds the appeal. That means Sainsbury's cannot withdraw their bid because of the onerous condition they want delivered. It's at that point Bristol Rovers 1883 Ltd can then say they have delivered the requirements necessary for the store to operate. The club can then say to Sainsbury's conditions have now been met for you to operate your store, hand over the money or we'll sue you for compensation for the exact amount you bid for the Memorial Stadium plus all the other costs that you have caused us to incur. So not only would we get the money we'd also get to keep the Mem too ! It all rests on the Government Inspector now......come on, come on....get into 'em ! On what grounds might the Planning Inspectorate uphold the appeal? If s/he does, there are two other onerous conditions that Sainsbury's have so far said they won't enforce, but are sitting in the contract like spanners available to be shoved in the works. Like you say, they don't want the site - and have said so - and have huge experience and expertise in this field. As for those convincing themselves that it's 'watertight', selecting the amount of compensation that is likely, and deciding what to spend it on.... the world must often seem a bewildering and disappointing place to them.
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