baselswh
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Post by baselswh on Sept 15, 2024 13:37:51 GMT
Today is "Battle of Britain" day.
A day to remember when our RAF beat the might of the German Luftwaffe and therefore stopped ,or at least postponed, the German invasion of our country.
An incredible battle and victory.
🇬🇧
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Post by baldrick on Sept 15, 2024 13:51:58 GMT
Worth a watch.
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baselswh
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Post by baselswh on Sept 15, 2024 14:01:52 GMT
Yes,agreed Balders. Whatshisname,the actor and game show host tells his experience of the battle if I recall.Perhaps one or two other celebrities too.Not sure. |
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Post by baldrick on Sept 15, 2024 14:03:18 GMT
Yes,agreed Balders. Whatshisname,the actor and game show host tells his experience of the battle if I recall.Perhaps one or two other celebrities too.Not sure. Nicolas Parsons? Yes, it has a few famous faces, mostly were children at the time. |
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baselswh
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Post by baselswh on Sept 15, 2024 14:06:47 GMT
Yes,agreed Balders. Whatshisname,the actor and game show host tells his experience of the battle if I recall.Perhaps one or two other celebrities too.Not sure. Nicolas Parsons? Yes, it has a few famous faces, mostly were children at the time. That's who I was thinking of.👍 |
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baselswh
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Post by baselswh on Sept 15, 2024 16:02:33 GMT
In the scenario we had lost the Battle,I suppose our Royal Navy would of been bombarded by the Luftwaffe and we would of been heading North to Scotland.
Perhaps negotiating a surrender that kept us in our place.
?
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Post by baldrick on Sept 15, 2024 16:11:33 GMT
In the scenario we had lost the Battle,I suppose our Royal Navy would of been bombarded by the Luftwaffe and we would of been heading North to Scotland. Perhaps negotiating a surrender that kept us in our place. ? No, the RN would have sank the barges carrying the Germans across, even the swell they created would have swamped the low lying vessels. The Luftwaffe would have made it costly but still unsuccessful. |
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trymer
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Post by trymer on Sept 15, 2024 17:40:10 GMT
In the scenario we had lost the Battle,I suppose our Royal Navy would of been bombarded by the Luftwaffe and we would of been heading North to Scotland. Perhaps negotiating a surrender that kept us in our place. ? Yes without air superiority the navy would have been donald ducked, you only have to read about what happened to Prince of Wales and Repulse when they were overwhelmed by Japanese aircraft,two capital ships sunk in no time. Some interesting footage of Operation Cerberus on Youtube,the Germans put an umbrella of aircraft over their fleet and sailed up the Channel in 1941, the navy needed air suppoert or as you say they would have had to head north to Scapa flow. I dont think that Operation Sea lion was ever a serious proposition but with air superiority and without the RN present who knows ? if migrants can get here in dinghy's maybe it was possible, with all the kit lost at Dunkirk the troops here were badly armed for a while. |
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baselswh
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Post by baselswh on Sept 15, 2024 17:43:40 GMT
That's interesting.
Baldrick and Trymer have different opinions on our chances if the Luftwaffe had beaten the RAF.
Over to you Nobby.👍
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trymer
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Post by trymer on Sept 15, 2024 18:00:16 GMT
That's interesting. Baldrick and Trymer have different opinions on our chances if the Luftwaffe had beaten the RAF. Over to you Nobby.👍 Plenty of ships sunk by aircraft in WW2 when they didnt have sufficient air cover, Dunkirk,Crete evacuation, Pearl Harbor, ships very vulnerable to air attack just look at the ships lost in the Falklands war. |
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baselswh
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Post by baselswh on Sept 15, 2024 18:05:29 GMT
That's interesting. Baldrick and Trymer have different opinions on our chances if the Luftwaffe had beaten the RAF. Over to you Nobby.👍 Plenty of ships sunk by aircraft in WW2 when they didnt have sufficient air cover, Dunkirk,Crete evacuation, Pearl Harbor, ships very vulnerable to air attack just look at the ships lost in the Falklands war. Yep,agreed Trymer. I did however read the Royal Navy may of been handy,as long as they had a good supply of anti aircraft shells. I don't know. |
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Post by baldrick on Sept 15, 2024 18:23:22 GMT
Plenty of ships sunk by aircraft in WW2 when they didnt have sufficient air cover, Dunkirk,Crete evacuation, Pearl Harbor, ships very vulnerable to air attack just look at the ships lost in the Falklands war. Yep,agreed Trymer. I did however read the Royal Navy may of been handy,as long as they had a good supply of anti aircraft shells. I don't know. It's an interesting 'What if', personally I don't think Germany had the capacity to land sufficient men, armour and assorted material, let alone keep them sustained. Japan had specialist torpedo bombers and experience which was a crucial aspect of the sinking of Prince of Wales. Germany lacked both and in Norway wasn't great, although it did succeed, and our own Malta runs shows it's not always easy to hit ships. The confined nature of the Channel and volume of aircraft would have helped Germany but it's not a given by any means. The most likely outcome imo, is a psychological one that may have caused the collapse of the government and the successor suing for peace, but the cost to the Germans would have been enormous. With Hitler looking east, I just can't see him committing to it, rather using it as a threat for peace talks. |
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Post by baselswh on Sept 15, 2024 19:04:28 GMT
I do think Adolf would of accepted a surrender deal, so he could take his ambitions East.
Did'nt he have a feeling of Saxon brotherhood towards England?
Would the German Navy U boats of been used.
I suppose yes,as long as the Luftwaffe did'nt inadvertently bomb them?U boat being a seriously good weapon at the time.
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Post by Nobbygas on Sept 16, 2024 9:24:07 GMT
That's interesting. Baldrick and Trymer have different opinions on our chances if the Luftwaffe had beaten the RAF. Over to you Nobby.👍 Just my opinion. The Battle of Britain was just the first stage in the defence of the UK. Operation Seelowe was in the forward stages of planning, so much so that the barges were in place in ports in France. Air Superiority was of course vital for that operation, but it wasn't the be-all and end-all of things. At this point in the war we did have a limited amount of aircraft, but production had been ramped up and we were beginning to mass produce aircraft. If we had 'lost' the Battle of Britain this would not have meant the end of the RAF. It would still have been there. For the Germans one of their main problems would have been logistics. How do they supply their troops once they have landed in the UK? This is where the Home Fleet would have come into play. I believe the RN would have played havoc with the German supply lines across the Channel. Not only that but Britain would have pulled ships back from various other places around the world. Also the Germans would have been made to pay a heavy price when conducting the first landings. Their losses would have been heavy. They just didn't have the infrastructure, resources, training or knowledge on how to conduct a mass seaborne invasion. Yes, the Prince of Wales and Repulse were sank from the air by the Japanese, but they were unsupported ships. They were on their own and sailing in the wrong place. In summary, even if we had lost the Battle of Britain it is my opinion that the Royal Navy would have prevailed. |
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Post by matealotblue on Sept 16, 2024 9:36:11 GMT
That's interesting. Baldrick and Trymer have different opinions on our chances if the Luftwaffe had beaten the RAF. Over to you Nobby.👍 Just my opinion. The Battle of Britain was just the first stage in the defence of the UK. Operation Seelowe was in the forward stages of planning, so much so that the barges were in place in ports in France. Air Superiority was of course vital for that operation, but it wasn't the be-all and end-all of things. At this point in the war we did have a limited amount of aircraft, but production had been ramped up and we were beginning to mass produce aircraft. If we had 'lost' the Battle of Britain this would not have meant the end of the RAF. It would still have been there. For the Germans one of their main problems would have been logistics. How do they supply their troops once they have landed in the UK? This is where the Home Fleet would have come into play. I believe the RN would have played havoc with the German supply lines across the Channel. Not only that but Britain would have pulled ships back from various other places around the world. Also the Germans would have been made to pay a heavy price when conducting the first landings. Their losses would have been heavy. They just didn't have the infrastructure, resources, training or knowledge on how to conduct a mass seaborne invasion. Yes, the Prince of Wales and Repulse were sank from the air by the Japanese, but they were unsupported ships. They were on their own and sailing in the wrong place. In summary, even if we had lost the Battle of Britain it is my opinion that the Royal Navy would have prevailed. The Royal Navy always prevails….😍. Well we did when we had ships/submarines to prevail with…..😢 |
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Sept 16, 2024 11:11:45 GMT
Just my opinion. The Battle of Britain was just the first stage in the defence of the UK. Operation Seelowe was in the forward stages of planning, so much so that the barges were in place in ports in France. Air Superiority was of course vital for that operation, but it wasn't the be-all and end-all of things. At this point in the war we did have a limited amount of aircraft, but production had been ramped up and we were beginning to mass produce aircraft. If we had 'lost' the Battle of Britain this would not have meant the end of the RAF. It would still have been there. For the Germans one of their main problems would have been logistics. How do they supply their troops once they have landed in the UK? This is where the Home Fleet would have come into play. I believe the RN would have played havoc with the German supply lines across the Channel. Not only that but Britain would have pulled ships back from various other places around the world. Also the Germans would have been made to pay a heavy price when conducting the first landings. Their losses would have been heavy. They just didn't have the infrastructure, resources, training or knowledge on how to conduct a mass seaborne invasion. Yes, the Prince of Wales and Repulse were sank from the air by the Japanese, but they were unsupported ships. They were on their own and sailing in the wrong place. In summary, even if we had lost the Battle of Britain it is my opinion that the Royal Navy would have prevailed. The Royal Navy always prevails….😍. Well we did when we had ships/submarines to prevail with…..😢 And of course aircraft carriers that worked occasionally...  |
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Post by matealotblue on Sept 16, 2024 11:28:32 GMT
The Royal Navy always prevails….😍. Well we did when we had ships/submarines to prevail with…..😢 And of course aircraft carriers that worked occasionally... With aircraft to go on them as well……would help… |
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Post by baldrick on Sept 16, 2024 12:05:30 GMT
And of course aircraft carriers that worked occasionally... With aircraft to go on them as well……would help… Don't ask about getting a USN submarine to patrol our waters due to ours being in dry dock or the Royal Fleet Auxiliary on strike. 🫣 |
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trymer
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Post by trymer on Sept 16, 2024 14:06:59 GMT
That's interesting. Baldrick and Trymer have different opinions on our chances if the Luftwaffe had beaten the RAF. Over to you Nobby.👍 Just my opinion. The Battle of Britain was just the first stage in the defence of the UK. Operation Seelowe was in the forward stages of planning, so much so that the barges were in place in ports in France. Air Superiority was of course vital for that operation, but it wasn't the be-all and end-all of things. At this point in the war we did have a limited amount of aircraft, but production had been ramped up and we were beginning to mass produce aircraft. If we had 'lost' the Battle of Britain this would not have meant the end of the RAF. It would still have been there. For the Germans one of their main problems would have been logistics. How do they supply their troops once they have landed in the UK? This is where the Home Fleet would have come into play. I believe the RN would have played havoc with the German supply lines across the Channel. Not only that but Britain would have pulled ships back from various other places around the world. Also the Germans would have been made to pay a heavy price when conducting the first landings. Their losses would have been heavy. They just didn't have the infrastructure, resources, training or knowledge on how to conduct a mass seaborne invasion. Yes, the Prince of Wales and Repulse were sank from the air by the Japanese, but they were unsupported ships. They were on their own and sailing in the wrong place. In summary, even if we had lost the Battle of Britain it is my opinion that the Royal Navy would have prevailed. There would of been more aircraft for the RAF but they were running out of pilots and those that they had must have been exhausted. I do agree though that there wouldnt have been total air superiority as the Japanese had when they sunk P.o.W and Repulse (or like the Germans and Italians had during the Crete evacuation when they sunk 3 cruisers and 6 destroyers) but if you look at the Dunkirk evacuation where the RAF was still in contention the allies lost 9 destroyers and 5 or 6 of those were to air attack,ships are very vulnerable. As I said I doubt that Sea Lion was a serious proposition, if it happened the RN would have taken huge losses trying to prevent it and the bigger ships would have been sent to Scapa Flow (imo) maybe destroyers and cruisers could have operated by night but U boats would have been present. Dieppe proved (especially to the allies and their planning for D day) that an amphibious landing needs air superiority to succeed thankfully that lesson was still remembered for the San Carlos landings look at what happened to Sir Galahad when there wasnt air superiority or AA defence. |
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Post by baldrick on Sept 16, 2024 15:12:07 GMT
Just my opinion. The Battle of Britain was just the first stage in the defence of the UK. Operation Seelowe was in the forward stages of planning, so much so that the barges were in place in ports in France. Air Superiority was of course vital for that operation, but it wasn't the be-all and end-all of things. At this point in the war we did have a limited amount of aircraft, but production had been ramped up and we were beginning to mass produce aircraft. If we had 'lost' the Battle of Britain this would not have meant the end of the RAF. It would still have been there. For the Germans one of their main problems would have been logistics. How do they supply their troops once they have landed in the UK? This is where the Home Fleet would have come into play. I believe the RN would have played havoc with the German supply lines across the Channel. Not only that but Britain would have pulled ships back from various other places around the world. Also the Germans would have been made to pay a heavy price when conducting the first landings. Their losses would have been heavy. They just didn't have the infrastructure, resources, training or knowledge on how to conduct a mass seaborne invasion. Yes, the Prince of Wales and Repulse were sank from the air by the Japanese, but they were unsupported ships. They were on their own and sailing in the wrong place. In summary, even if we had lost the Battle of Britain it is my opinion that the Royal Navy would have prevailed. There would of been more aircraft for the RAF but they were running out of pilots and those that they had must have been exhausted. I do agree though that there wouldnt have been total air superiority as the Japanese had when they sunk P.o.W and Repulse (or like the Germans and Italians had during the Crete evacuation when they sunk 3 cruisers and 6 destroyers) but if you look at the Dunkirk evacuation where the RAF was still in contention the allies lost 9 destroyers and 5 or 6 of those were to air attack,ships are very vulnerable. As I said I doubt that Sea Lion was a serious proposition, if it happened the RN would have taken huge losses trying to prevent it and the bigger ships would have been sent to Scapa Flow (imo) maybe destroyers and cruisers could have operated by night but U boats would have been present. Dieppe proved (especially to the allies and their planning for D day) that an amphibious landing needs air superiority to succeed thankfully that lesson was still remembered for the San Carlos landings look at what happened to Sir Galahad when there wasnt air superiority or AA defence. Those ships were static, in the event of Sealion proceeding, the navy would have been able to maneuver and we still lost ships in San Carlos. |
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