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Post by baselswh on Sept 3, 2024 13:04:21 GMT
Israel have every right to their country.
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Post by Nobbygas on Sept 3, 2024 13:17:23 GMT
Well, how far back would you go? The Jews could ( and probably do ) go back to the 2nd Century, when they themselves were forcibly expelled from this land that now causes so much contention. But I`ll throw a date into the mix. 2005. The year that Israeli settlers were dragged kicking and screaming out of Gaza, by Israeli soldiers acting on the orders of the Israeli government. The settlements were gone, the occupying soldiers were gone, it could have been the start of a new chapter for the people of Gaza. Was this an end to all of their grievances? Of course it wasn`t; I`m well aware of the limitations and restrictions that Israel still enforced on Gaza, nonetheless, wouldn`t most people agree that it was a step in the right direction? And how DID the Gazans react to these developments? The last Israeli soldier to leave, was promptly followed by the first Palestinian rocket fired into Israel. Thousands have followed. I think 2005 was the year that the people of Israel came to realise that no matter what concessions they made to the Palestinians, the Palestinians would still want to kill them all. I understand your logic (I think) But it's not logical. The Israelis kicking out the illegal settlers in 2005 did nothing to address the issues caused by the debacle, the tragedy, of 1948. Given what happened then it is more understandable the reactions of the Palestinians (not to be confused with sympathy for murder). No, in more modern history,1948 is the key date You keep mentioning 1948, the creation of Israel as a State. Are you suggesting that the State of Israel has no right to exist? |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,556
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Post by oldie on Sept 3, 2024 14:17:46 GMT
I understand your logic (I think) But it's not logical. The Israelis kicking out the illegal settlers in 2005 did nothing to address the issues caused by the debacle, the tragedy, of 1948. Given what happened then it is more understandable the reactions of the Palestinians (not to be confused with sympathy for murder). No, in more modern history,1948 is the key date You keep mentioning 1948, the creation of Israel as a State. Are you suggesting that the State of Israel has no right to exist? What I am stating, not suggesting, is that displacing a population that has resided in a given territory for centuries is only ever going to end up with conflict. Unless you kill them all. |
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Post by alftupper on Sept 4, 2024 6:43:57 GMT
Well, how far back would you go? The Jews could ( and probably do ) go back to the 2nd Century, when they themselves were forcibly expelled from this land that now causes so much contention. But I`ll throw a date into the mix. 2005. The year that Israeli settlers were dragged kicking and screaming out of Gaza, by Israeli soldiers acting on the orders of the Israeli government. The settlements were gone, the occupying soldiers were gone, it could have been the start of a new chapter for the people of Gaza. Was this an end to all of their grievances? Of course it wasn`t; I`m well aware of the limitations and restrictions that Israel still enforced on Gaza, nonetheless, wouldn`t most people agree that it was a step in the right direction? And how DID the Gazans react to these developments? The last Israeli soldier to leave, was promptly followed by the first Palestinian rocket fired into Israel. Thousands have followed. I think 2005 was the year that the people of Israel came to realise that no matter what concessions they made to the Palestinians, the Palestinians would still want to kill them all. I understand your logic (I think) But it's not logical. The Israelis kicking out the illegal settlers in 2005 did nothing to address the issues caused by the debacle, the tragedy, of 1948. Given what happened then it is more understandable the reactions of the Palestinians (not to be confused with sympathy for murder). No, in more modern history,1948 is the key date It did "nothing" to address the issues? You wouldn`t agree that removing the settlers and soldiers from Gaza, was a step in the right direction? You wouldn`t agree that Palestinians could have taken a more peaceful step in return? To me, 2005 was a better chance for peace in the area, than the pie in the sky Oslo Accords ever were. The Israeli settlers in Gaza, grew fruits and veggies that were exported all over the world. What have the Palestinians exported since 2005? Hatred and death, and their endless Katyusha rockets. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,556
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Post by oldie on Sept 4, 2024 8:51:00 GMT
I understand your logic (I think) But it's not logical. The Israelis kicking out the illegal settlers in 2005 did nothing to address the issues caused by the debacle, the tragedy, of 1948. Given what happened then it is more understandable the reactions of the Palestinians (not to be confused with sympathy for murder). No, in more modern history,1948 is the key date It did "nothing" to address the issues? You wouldn`t agree that removing the settlers and soldiers from Gaza, was a step in the right direction? You wouldn`t agree that Palestinians could have taken a more peaceful step in return? To me, 2005 was a better chance for peace in the area, than the pie in the sky Oslo Accords ever were. The Israeli settlers in Gaza, grew fruits and veggies that were exported all over the world. What have the Palestinians exported since 2005? Hatred and death, and their endless Katyusha rockets. "You wouldn`t agree that removing the settlers and soldiers from Gaza, was a step in the right direction? " Of course, but that's just one step forward after taking two steps back, it resolved nothing and does even less to address the real issue. However this "The Israeli settlers in Gaza, grew fruits and veggies that were exported all over the world. What have the Palestinians exported since 2005? " Betrays a disdain for the Palestinians, one that is a dog whistle to those that think Palestinians are somehow "inferior" I work for an organisation that has been trading with Palestinian producers for years through this organisation zaytoun.uk/20-years-of-zaytoun/Drill down to their product offer, they are delicious. The word "Zaytoun" if the same as Farsi means Olive. You are wide of the mark Alf |
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Cheshiregas
Global Moderator
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,979 
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Post by Cheshiregas on Sept 4, 2024 11:31:45 GMT
Fort many years I have lent money through a charity called Lend with care organised by Care International.
The charity helps microfinance lenders to assist groups or individuals in countries where finance may not be easy to come by, from Vietnam to Ecuador, Philippines to Malawi.
I had three loans to Palestinian farmers.
Not only have the charity lost contact with the Palestinians, they cannot even confirm they are still alive.
They were doing really well growing their farms, repaying loans, and now they have probably been obliterated.
My own Jewish friends, who I would willingly protect and defend as I know the sh** they have had over the years from anti-semites, are increasingly uneasy with Israel's actions.
They feel that it is a priority to have the hostages released and some form of peace brought about.
They know that is unlikely with a group like Hamas that wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth but also an increasingly belligerent Prime Minister trying to save his own job backed by right wing zealots, who encourages the stealing of land in areas of Palestinian lands where Hamas have no stronghold.
With all these elements it is unlikely peace will come any time soon.
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Sept 4, 2024 15:53:29 GMT
Fort many years I have lent money through a charity called Lend with care organised by Care International. The charity helps microfinance lenders to assist groups or individuals in countries where finance may not be easy to come by, from Vietnam to Ecuador, Philippines to Malawi. I had three loans to Palestinian farmers. Not only have the charity lost contact with the Palestinians, they cannot even confirm they are still alive. They were doing really well growing their farms, repaying loans, and now they have probably been obliterated. My own Jewish friends, who I would willingly protect and defend as I know the sh** they have had over the years from anti-semites, are increasingly uneasy with Israel's actions. They feel that it is a priority to have the hostages released and some form of peace brought about. They know that is unlikely with a group like Hamas that wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth but also an increasingly belligerent Prime Minister trying to save his own job backed by right wing zealots, who encourages the stealing of land in areas of Palestinian lands where Hamas have no stronghold. With all these elements it is unlikely peace will come any time soon. Exactly And I admire you |
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Post by alftupper on Sept 5, 2024 9:30:00 GMT
It did "nothing" to address the issues? You wouldn`t agree that removing the settlers and soldiers from Gaza, was a step in the right direction? You wouldn`t agree that Palestinians could have taken a more peaceful step in return? To me, 2005 was a better chance for peace in the area, than the pie in the sky Oslo Accords ever were. The Israeli settlers in Gaza, grew fruits and veggies that were exported all over the world. What have the Palestinians exported since 2005? Hatred and death, and their endless Katyusha rockets. "You wouldn`t agree that removing the settlers and soldiers from Gaza, was a step in the right direction? " Of course, but that's just one step forward after taking two steps back, it resolved nothing and does even less to address the real issue. However this "The Israeli settlers in Gaza, grew fruits and veggies that were exported all over the world. What have the Palestinians exported since 2005? " Betrays a disdain for the Palestinians, one that is a dog whistle to those that think Palestinians are somehow "inferior" I work for an organisation that has been trading with Palestinian producers for years through this organisation zaytoun.uk/20-years-of-zaytoun/Drill down to their product offer, they are delicious. The word "Zaytoun" if the same as Farsi means Olive. You are wide of the mark Alf I`m glad you finally agree that Israel removing all the settlers and the soldiers from Gaza, was a step in the right direction. I`ll ask you for a third time, should the Gazans not have responded with a similar step? Small steps, but positive ones. I don`t think the Palestinians are "inferior", although I do feel that their attitudes towards women could maybe be brought a little more into line with modern thinking. Homosexuals too. Not a lifestyle choice that much appeals to me, but don`t believe that their difference from the rest of us, means they should be thrown from the top of high buildings. Not that there`s many high buildings left to throw them from these days. I do personally feel that Israel`s attitude in these respects is superior to the Palestinian`s, but wouldn`t argue with you, and don`t "disdain" the Palestinians as a result. We all think differently. Might explain why most of the West instinctively sides with Israel though. I checked out the website that you posted. The produce does indeed look "delicious". Couldn`t argue with that. How much of it is grown in Gaza? And however much it may or not be, it begs the question, why did the Gazans not concentrate on producing it, when the Israelis no longer had a presence on the land? Would you not agree, that would have been a better way to proceed? Small steps. But no, not a bit of it. The moment the last Israeli soldier left the territory, Gazans were unwrapping the Christmas presents that Iran had sent them, and started firing them into Israel. And the wheels on the bus...... |
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Post by alftupper on Sept 5, 2024 9:39:19 GMT
Fort many years I have lent money through a charity called Lend with care organised by Care International. The charity helps microfinance lenders to assist groups or individuals in countries where finance may not be easy to come by, from Vietnam to Ecuador, Philippines to Malawi. I had three loans to Palestinian farmers. Not only have the charity lost contact with the Palestinians, they cannot even confirm they are still alive. They were doing really well growing their farms, repaying loans, and now they have probably been obliterated. My own Jewish friends, who I would willingly protect and defend as I know the sh** they have had over the years from anti-semites, are increasingly uneasy with Israel's actions. They feel that it is a priority to have the hostages released and some form of peace brought about. They know that is unlikely with a group like Hamas that wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth but also an increasingly belligerent Prime Minister trying to save his own job backed by right wing zealots, who encourages the stealing of land in areas of Palestinian lands where Hamas have no stronghold. With all these elements it is unlikely peace will come any time soon. Exactly And I admire you Well , that`s one thing we agree on. Cheshire may be relentlessly Pollyanna ish, but unquestionably one of the good guys. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Sept 5, 2024 10:07:46 GMT
"You wouldn`t agree that removing the settlers and soldiers from Gaza, was a step in the right direction? " Of course, but that's just one step forward after taking two steps back, it resolved nothing and does even less to address the real issue. However this "The Israeli settlers in Gaza, grew fruits and veggies that were exported all over the world. What have the Palestinians exported since 2005? " Betrays a disdain for the Palestinians, one that is a dog whistle to those that think Palestinians are somehow "inferior" I work for an organisation that has been trading with Palestinian producers for years through this organisation zaytoun.uk/20-years-of-zaytoun/Drill down to their product offer, they are delicious. The word "Zaytoun" if the same as Farsi means Olive. You are wide of the mark Alf I`m glad you finally agree that Israel removing all the settlers and the soldiers from Gaza, was a step in the right direction. I`ll ask you for a third time, should the Gazans not have responded with a similar step? Small steps, but positive ones. I don`t think the Palestinians are "inferior", although I do feel that their attitudes towards women could maybe be brought a little more into line with modern thinking. Homosexuals too. Not a lifestyle choice that much appeals to me, but don`t believe that their difference from the rest of us, means they should be thrown from the top of high buildings. Not that there`s many high buildings left to throw them from these days. I do personally feel that Israel`s attitude in these respects is superior to the Palestinian`s, but wouldn`t argue with you, and don`t "disdain" the Palestinians as a result. We all think differently. Might explain why most of the West instinctively sides with Israel though. I checked out the website that you posted. The produce does indeed look "delicious". Couldn`t argue with that. How much of it is grown in Gaza? And however much it may or not be, it begs the question, why did the Gazans not concentrate on producing it, when the Israelis no longer had a presence on the land? Would you not agree, that would have been a better way to proceed? Small steps. But no, not a bit of it. The moment the last Israeli soldier left the territory, Gazans were unwrapping the Christmas presents that Iran had sent them, and started firing them into Israel. And the wheels on the bus...... To the best of my knowledge all product sold by Zaytoun come from Palestine where indicated. The separation into "territories" is a 20th century construct and does not recognise what Palestine was before 1948. The history, the land the culture. A bit like the Indian sub continent during the same period. Should the Palestinians accept defeat? Accept "Nakba" as history and move on? Possibly, probably, it's not going to be "undone". This to me is the real issue and casual factor. Words here and there, a few "political" offerings do nothing to address the underlying cause. Add the actions of the Zionists rubbing salt into already deep wounds. Whilst there is no way I can support insanity of the violence perpetrated by the likes of HAMAS and the multitude of other insane Islamists groups who have hijacked the Palestinian issue, I can completely understand the anger and resentment felt by Palestinians born of what happened in 1948. You mentioned Iran, there equally I can completely understand the antipathy felt by Iranians towards us (UK) and the USA after what we did to that country in 1952. However it's an old argument predicated upon knowledge and to a degree interpretation of history. |
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Post by alftupper on Sept 6, 2024 10:53:47 GMT
I`m glad you finally agree that Israel removing all the settlers and the soldiers from Gaza, was a step in the right direction. I`ll ask you for a third time, should the Gazans not have responded with a similar step? Small steps, but positive ones. I don`t think the Palestinians are "inferior", although I do feel that their attitudes towards women could maybe be brought a little more into line with modern thinking. Homosexuals too. Not a lifestyle choice that much appeals to me, but don`t believe that their difference from the rest of us, means they should be thrown from the top of high buildings. Not that there`s many high buildings left to throw them from these days. I do personally feel that Israel`s attitude in these respects is superior to the Palestinian`s, but wouldn`t argue with you, and don`t "disdain" the Palestinians as a result. We all think differently. Might explain why most of the West instinctively sides with Israel though. I checked out the website that you posted. The produce does indeed look "delicious". Couldn`t argue with that. How much of it is grown in Gaza? And however much it may or not be, it begs the question, why did the Gazans not concentrate on producing it, when the Israelis no longer had a presence on the land? Would you not agree, that would have been a better way to proceed? Small steps. But no, not a bit of it. The moment the last Israeli soldier left the territory, Gazans were unwrapping the Christmas presents that Iran had sent them, and started firing them into Israel. And the wheels on the bus...... a few political To the best of my knowledge all product sold by Zaytoun come from Palestine where indicated. The separation into "territories" is a 20th century construct and does not recognise what Palestine was before 1948. The history, the land the culture. A bit like the Indian sub continent during the same period. Should the Palestinians accept defeat? Accept "Nakba" as history and move on? Possibly, probably, it's not going to be "undone". This to me is the real issue and casual factor. Words here and there, a few "political" offerings do nothing to address the underlying cause. Add the actions of the Zionists rubbing salt into already deep wounds. Whilst there is no way I can support insanity of the violence perpetrated by the likes of HAMAS and the multitude of other insane Islamists groups who have hijacked the Palestinian issue, I can completely understand the anger and resentment felt by Palestinians born of what happened in 1948. You mentioned Iran, there equally I can completely understand the antipathy felt by Iranians towards us (UK) and the USA after what we did to that country in 1952. However it's an old argument predicated upon knowledge and to a degree interpretation of history. I sent my old mate Bibi in Jerusalem an email, saying that you regarded the forcible removal of all Israeli settlers and the withdrawal of all Israeli soldiers from Gaza, as being nothing more than "a few political offerings which do nothing to address the underlying cause". He said that, if that`s the case, he`ll leave everything in the West Bank as it is. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,556
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Post by oldie on Sept 6, 2024 11:43:04 GMT
To the best of my knowledge all product sold by Zaytoun come from Palestine where indicated. The separation into "territories" is a 20th century construct and does not recognise what Palestine was before 1948. The history, the land the culture. A bit like the Indian sub continent during the same period. Should the Palestinians accept defeat? Accept "Nakba" as history and move on? Possibly, probably, it's not going to be "undone". This to me is the real issue and casual factor. Words here and there, a few "political" offerings do nothing to address the underlying cause. Add the actions of the Zionists rubbing salt into already deep wounds. Whilst there is no way I can support insanity of the violence perpetrated by the likes of HAMAS and the multitude of other insane Islamists groups who have hijacked the Palestinian issue, I can completely understand the anger and resentment felt by Palestinians born of what happened in 1948. You mentioned Iran, there equally I can completely understand the antipathy felt by Iranians towards us (UK) and the USA after what we did to that country in 1952. However it's an old argument predicated upon knowledge and to a degree interpretation of history. I sent my old mate Bibi in Jerusalem an email, saying that you regarded the forcible removal of all Israeli settlers and the withdrawal of all Israeli soldiers from Gaza, as being nothing more than "a few political offerings which do nothing to address the underlying cause". He said that, if that`s the case, he`ll leave everything in the West Bank as it is. He is already doing more than that isn't he. There are more than a few documented incidents of Zionist zealots attacking Palestinians in their villages in the West Bank, whilst the Israeli Army and police force look on. I wonder, if young Palestinians took up arms to defend their families and homes, would they be terrorists? Anyway as I said it's an old argument |
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Post by francegas on Sept 17, 2024 16:18:33 GMT
Being reported that 8 people are dead and 2750 injured following exploding pagers across Lebanon [including members of Hezbollah].
The devices apparently received a message and exploded when viewed.
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Post by alftupper on Sept 17, 2024 19:34:53 GMT
Being reported that 8 people are dead and 2750 injured following exploding pagers across Lebanon [including members of Hezbollah]. The devices apparently received a message and exploded when viewed. It gets very hot in sub-Saharan Africa. Probably, the batteries exploded. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,556
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Post by oldie on Sept 17, 2024 20:16:01 GMT
Being reported that 8 people are dead and 2750 injured following exploding pagers across Lebanon [including members of Hezbollah]. The devices apparently received a message and exploded when viewed. It gets very hot in sub-Saharan Africa. Probably, the batteries exploded. Is Lebanon located in Sub-Saharan Africa? Who knew |
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baldrick
Joined: July 2024
Posts: 1,356
Member is Online
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Post by baldrick on Sept 17, 2024 20:30:12 GMT
It gets very hot in sub-Saharan Africa. Probably, the batteries exploded. Is Lebanon located in Sub-Saharan Africa? Who knew Alf's fishing. |
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Post by alftupper on Sept 18, 2024 6:06:55 GMT
Maybe time for a Lebanese rethink?
You don`t read about Egyptians being blown up by their microwaves.
Or Jordanians being blown up by their pop up toasters.
Make nice with Israel.
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,556
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Post by oldie on Sept 18, 2024 7:14:38 GMT
Maybe time for a Lebanese rethink? You don`t read about Egyptians being blown up by their microwaves. Or Jordanians being blown up by their pop up toasters. Make nice with Israel. In Egypt their own government locks them up and "disappears" them. In Jordan "The government has restricted the freedom of peaceful assembly and association through overly restrictive laws on civil society organizations and non governmental organizations. Jordan has seen extensive gender-based violence, including domestic violence, sexual violence, and other harmful practices." With governments like that no time to worry about Israel, even though they, the Israelis, killed another kid in Lebanon yesterday |
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bluetornados
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 15,759
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Post by bluetornados on Sept 18, 2024 17:33:17 GMT
Exploding walkie-talkies kill nine and injure at least 300 in new attacks across Lebanon..by Sam Hancock and Jacqueline Howardichef.bbci.co.uk/ace/standard/1024/cpsprodpb/229a/live/1d9fd150-75dd-11ef-b282-4535eb84fe4b.jpgExploding walkie-talkies have killed nine and injured at least 300 people across Lebanon, the country's health ministry says The blasts come a day after exploding pagers killed 12 people, including two children, and left almost 3,000 in hospital Multiple sources say Mossad, the Israeli spy agency, was targeting Hezbollah fighters in Tuesday's explosions - Israel declined to comment However, Israel's defence minister says they are "opening a new phase in the war", and the "centre of gravity is shifting to the north" Hezbollah used pagers after banning mobile phones earlier this year, saying they were too easy to track
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,556
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Post by oldie on Sept 18, 2024 18:48:19 GMT
Exploding walkie-talkies kill nine and injure at least 300 in new attacks across Lebanon..by Sam Hancock and Jacqueline Howardichef.bbci.co.uk/ace/standard/1024/cpsprodpb/229a/live/1d9fd150-75dd-11ef-b282-4535eb84fe4b.jpgExploding walkie-talkies have killed nine and injured at least 300 people across Lebanon, the country's health ministry says The blasts come a day after exploding pagers killed 12 people, including two children, and left almost 3,000 in hospital Multiple sources say Mossad, the Israeli spy agency, was targeting Hezbollah fighters in Tuesday's explosions - Israel declined to comment However, Israel's defence minister says they are "opening a new phase in the war", and the "centre of gravity is shifting to the north" Hezbollah used pagers after banning mobile phones earlier this year, saying they were too easy to track Who knew? It's been all over the news across all outlets...where is the underpinning opinion to justify duplication on here? Without comment? |
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