Cheshiregas
Global Moderator
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,166 
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Post by Cheshiregas on Jun 22, 2023 21:38:03 GMT
BERLIN (Reuters) - Brexit has been an "economic disaster" for trade and investment ties between the United Kingdom and Germany, leading to a fall in German direct investment and seeing the UK decline in importance as a trading partner, German economists said.
Britain voted on June 23, 2016, to exit the European Union and it left the EU's single market at the start of 2021.
"Brexit is an economic disaster for both sides of the channel," Volker Treier, head of foreign trade at the German Chamber of Industry and Commerce (DIHK), told Reuters on Thursday.
Last year, Germany exported goods worth 73.8 billion euros ($80.57 billion) to the UK, 14.1% less than in 2016. The year of the referendum, the UK was Germany's third most important export market, but by 2022 the country had slipped to eighth place, Treier said.
As a trading partner - measuring combined exports and imports - the UK has lost even more importance since then, dropping from fifth to eleventh place, he added.
The volume of German direct investment in the UK has also declined. In 2021, it was around 140 billion euros, a decline of 16.1% compared with 2016.
According to the DIHK, some 2,163 German companies are now active in the UK, 5.2% fewer than in 2016.
Many British companies meanwhile have settled in Germany in recent years. Germany Trade and Invest (GTAI), an organisation that helps international companies set up business in Germany, has counted more than 1,000 new businesses from the UK since the Brexit vote.
Last year alone, there were 170 new businesses, a number surpassed only by companies from the U.S. and Germany's neighbour Switzerland.
"We expect inquiries from the UK to remain at a high level," said GTAI Managing Director Robert Hermann. "It is important for British companies to have a foothold in the EU."
Germany's size and central location are an advantage when it comes to attracting UK companies, he added.
"The UK's exit from the EU has made our close trade relations more difficult and there is still considerable planning and legal uncertainty in the UK business of German companies," said Treier.
($1 = 0.9160 euros)
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 4,401
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Post by oldie on Jun 23, 2023 4:50:01 GMT
BERLIN (Reuters) - Brexit has been an "economic disaster" for trade and investment ties between the United Kingdom and Germany, leading to a fall in German direct investment and seeing the UK decline in importance as a trading partner, German economists said. Britain voted on June 23, 2016, to exit the European Union and it left the EU's single market at the start of 2021. "Brexit is an economic disaster for both sides of the channel," Volker Treier, head of foreign trade at the German Chamber of Industry and Commerce (DIHK), told Reuters on Thursday. Last year, Germany exported goods worth 73.8 billion euros ($80.57 billion) to the UK, 14.1% less than in 2016. The year of the referendum, the UK was Germany's third most important export market, but by 2022 the country had slipped to eighth place, Treier said.
As a trading partner - measuring combined exports and imports - the UK has lost even more importance since then, dropping from fifth to eleventh place, he added. The volume of German direct investment in the UK has also declined. In 2021, it was around 140 billion euros, a decline of 16.1% compared with 2016. According to the DIHK, some 2,163 German companies are now active in the UK, 5.2% fewer than in 2016.Many British companies meanwhile have settled in Germany in recent years. Germany Trade and Invest (GTAI), an organisation that helps international companies set up business in Germany, has counted more than 1,000 new businesses from the UK since the Brexit vote.
Last year alone, there were 170 new businesses, a number surpassed only by companies from the U.S. and Germany's neighbour Switzerland.
"We expect inquiries from the UK to remain at a high level," said GTAI Managing Director Robert Hermann. "It is important for British companies to have a foothold in the EU." Germany's size and central location are an advantage when it comes to attracting UK companies, he added.
"The UK's exit from the EU has made our close trade relations more difficult and there is still considerable planning and legal uncertainty in the UK business of German companies," said Treier. ($1 = 0.9160 euros) Yeah But we regained control of our borders and keep all those nasty foreigners out....oh, hang on. |
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Post by Nobbygas on Jun 23, 2023 7:34:44 GMT
BERLIN (Reuters) - Brexit has been an "economic disaster" for trade and investment ties between the United Kingdom and Germany, leading to a fall in German direct investment and seeing the UK decline in importance as a trading partner, German economists said. Britain voted on June 23, 2016, to exit the European Union and it left the EU's single market at the start of 2021. "Brexit is an economic disaster for both sides of the channel," Volker Treier, head of foreign trade at the German Chamber of Industry and Commerce (DIHK), told Reuters on Thursday. Last year, Germany exported goods worth 73.8 billion euros ($80.57 billion) to the UK, 14.1% less than in 2016. The year of the referendum, the UK was Germany's third most important export market, but by 2022 the country had slipped to eighth place, Treier said.
As a trading partner - measuring combined exports and imports - the UK has lost even more importance since then, dropping from fifth to eleventh place, he added. The volume of German direct investment in the UK has also declined. In 2021, it was around 140 billion euros, a decline of 16.1% compared with 2016. According to the DIHK, some 2,163 German companies are now active in the UK, 5.2% fewer than in 2016.Many British companies meanwhile have settled in Germany in recent years. Germany Trade and Invest (GTAI), an organisation that helps international companies set up business in Germany, has counted more than 1,000 new businesses from the UK since the Brexit vote.
Last year alone, there were 170 new businesses, a number surpassed only by companies from the U.S. and Germany's neighbour Switzerland.
"We expect inquiries from the UK to remain at a high level," said GTAI Managing Director Robert Hermann. "It is important for British companies to have a foothold in the EU." Germany's size and central location are an advantage when it comes to attracting UK companies, he added.
"The UK's exit from the EU has made our close trade relations more difficult and there is still considerable planning and legal uncertainty in the UK business of German companies," said Treier. ($1 = 0.9160 euros) Let's ignore Oldies puerile response and try to talk sensibly. This is a bit one sided and doesn't go into any depth. For example, it looks at just 'trade figures' ie. the amount of trade moving between Germany and the UK. It doesn't talk about reality. Yes, the numbers have probably dropped, and there are reasons for that. The main reason is that many German and UK companies decided to set-up in both countries, or re-arrange their set-up's. As an example company A in Germany may have exported to the UK. Now Company A has set-up a UK arm of their company. Company A is still producing/selling in the UK but the numbers do not show up as 'exports from Germany'. This has happened with many companies on both sides, so yes, the numbers may appear to have dropped, but the reality is that the 'trade' is still ongoing. No trading company will allow politics to stand in the way of making a profit. Trade is trade, and traders will always find a way. Why are there more UK companies setting up in Germany than the other way round? Have you tried sending a simple parcel to relatives in the EU? The EU are the ones making trade difficult with the UK, this means that there will be a higher proportion of UK companies setting up offices in Germany to get around the political nonsense. It's still pretty easy for EU companies to operate in the UK. So, just looking at the numbers doesn't represent the reality of what is actually happening. As a very very small example, my German contract has been transferred to the London Office, so in effect I now work out of London. I have never been to the London Office and I have no intention of ever going there. Any money/profit/goods I generate are no longer considered as 'exports to the UK', but are now 'home produced'. I still do the same job as before though. Using just the numbers that would show up as a drop in exports to the UK when the reality is that it is not. |
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Post by Nobbygas on Jun 23, 2023 7:44:15 GMT
It's the politicians that are putting barriers in the way. Trade will always find a way around the politics. It's always been that way. Don't get blinkered by the basic numbers as they don't tell the true story.
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 4,401
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Post by oldie on Jun 23, 2023 9:10:21 GMT
It's the politicians that are putting barriers in the way. Trade will always find a way around the politics. It's always been that way. Don't get blinkered by the basic numbers as they don't tell the true story. Some truth in that, but that thought is more in hope than judgement. Take Northern Ireland and Eire. Remember when, in debate over leaving, the "border" was never going to be a problem? Well, with a foot in both camps businesses in NI are doing rather well, relatively. Figures released in Feb 2022 "Full-year figures from Ireland's Central Statistics Office show that imports to Ireland from Northern Ireland were up 65% to €3.9bn, a rise of €1.5bn compared with 2020. Exports from Ireland to Northern Ireland also rocketed, up 54% to €3.7bn, an increase of €1.3bn compared with 2020 – a total trade rise of €2.8bn" Funny what happens when you trade in a single market. And yes, my initial response could be labelled "puerile" but deliberately so. If we ignore the reasons why people living in areas where incomes have not grown in real terms, where public services have been cut, where housing is poor and difficult to acquire then it is unsurprising that they seek reasons, a scapegoat. Where no solutions are provided into that political vacuum steps chancers and charlatans. Hello Boris Johnson and his tribe and clowns like Nigel Farage. Personally I don't look at the people who were and are affected by the conditions I described but those that took advantage of the political opportunity (twice, 2016 and 2019) and worse those that should have known better. If we do not learn from these disasters then we are condemned to repeat them. No amount of scraping around to find some micro examples of hoped for trade strategies changes the macro picture. As the Irish show us. Ironic that the reunification of Ireland has been hastened as people there see through the politics. |
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Post by Nobbygas on Jun 23, 2023 10:23:32 GMT
When I give small examples these same things are happening on a much larger scale. Here's another small example for you. In every German city is a British Shop, selling stuff from the UK you can't normally get in German shops. Over the years, these shops have got together and they tend to order stuff in bulk. It arrives in Germany and then gets distributed. No problem. Now, I know the guy who runs the British Shop in Frankfurt and he used this story as an example of how things are now. He used Maynard's Wine Gums as his example. If he orders them from the UK, the pallet they are on will be held by German Customs for up to six weeks! It's because they contain Gelatine, which is considered an animal product. During that six weeks any perishable items will go off. To get around that they now order the very same Wine Gums from Eire and because of this they fly through German Customs without any delay. Those Wine Gums, whether from the UK or Eire are made in the same factory to the same specifications. One route takes six weeks, the other is instant. He used Wine Gums in his analogy but the same applies to sausages, bacon, pies, clotted cream etc etc. Now just extrapolate that across many many other products and ridiculous rules and laws and traders will move stuff from the UK, via Northern Ireland to Eire to enable easy access to the EU. This will explain the leap in exports to Eire. The reality is that traders will get around the barriers erected by politicians. Previously you were talking about the drop in exports to Germany, yet the exports to Eire have risen. Proves my points really doesn't it. Instead of going directly from the UK to Germany, many traders do the same by going via Eire. It will increase their costs, but while there is still a profit to be made the traders will do it.
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 4,401
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Post by oldie on Jun 23, 2023 12:03:31 GMT
When I give small examples these same things are happening on a much larger scale. Here's another small example for you. In every German city is a British Shop, selling stuff from the UK you can't normally get in German shops. Over the years, these shops have got together and they tend to order stuff in bulk. It arrives in Germany and then gets distributed. No problem. Now, I know the guy who runs the British Shop in Frankfurt and he used this story as an example of how things are now. He used Maynard's Wine Gums as his example. If he orders them from the UK, the pallet they are on will be held by German Customs for up to six weeks! It's because they contain Gelatine, which is considered an animal product. During that six weeks any perishable items will go off. To get around that they now order the very same Wine Gums from Eire and because of this they fly through German Customs without any delay. Those Wine Gums, whether from the UK or Eire are made in the same factory to the same specifications. One route takes six weeks, the other is instant. He used Wine Gums in his analogy but the same applies to sausages, bacon, pies, clotted cream etc etc. Now just extrapolate that across many many other products and ridiculous rules and laws and traders will move stuff from the UK, via Northern Ireland to Eire to enable easy access to the EU. This will explain the leap in exports to Eire. The reality is that traders will get around the barriers erected by politicians. Previously you were talking about the drop in exports to Germany, yet the exports to Eire have risen. Proves my points really doesn't it. Instead of going directly from the UK to Germany, many traders do the same by going via Eire. It will increase their costs, but while there is still a profit to be made the traders will do it. As Eire is in the EU I would presume the import/export rules are exactly the same as those applied in Germany? There wasa huge fuss made about the border in Northern Ireland being abused to get around the fact that the UK is no longer in the EU. You will recall the fuss about the labelling and documentation. Yours Nobby is purely anecdotal opinion and not cemented by evidence. As a counter, on your chosen basis, I listened to an interview yesterday with a guy from Northern Ireland who runs a garden centre business over there. He quoted direct experience of importing plants from the UK mainland. It is so time consuming, paper work, customs clearance, agricultural inspection, that it can take two months for an order to be delivered. So bad that he now orders two months in advance, arranges for all paperwork and clearances himself and then drives his own van over to pick up his order. There you go, a bit of actuality to counter your theoretical presumptions. You can nibble at the edges but the day to the actual reality is a disaster for unencumbered free trade. It was R4, if nobody believes me I try and find a link. |
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Post by Nobbygas on Jun 23, 2023 14:06:14 GMT
When I give small examples these same things are happening on a much larger scale. Here's another small example for you. In every German city is a British Shop, selling stuff from the UK you can't normally get in German shops. Over the years, these shops have got together and they tend to order stuff in bulk. It arrives in Germany and then gets distributed. No problem. Now, I know the guy who runs the British Shop in Frankfurt and he used this story as an example of how things are now. He used Maynard's Wine Gums as his example. If he orders them from the UK, the pallet they are on will be held by German Customs for up to six weeks! It's because they contain Gelatine, which is considered an animal product. During that six weeks any perishable items will go off. To get around that they now order the very same Wine Gums from Eire and because of this they fly through German Customs without any delay. Those Wine Gums, whether from the UK or Eire are made in the same factory to the same specifications. One route takes six weeks, the other is instant. He used Wine Gums in his analogy but the same applies to sausages, bacon, pies, clotted cream etc etc. Now just extrapolate that across many many other products and ridiculous rules and laws and traders will move stuff from the UK, via Northern Ireland to Eire to enable easy access to the EU. This will explain the leap in exports to Eire. The reality is that traders will get around the barriers erected by politicians. Previously you were talking about the drop in exports to Germany, yet the exports to Eire have risen. Proves my points really doesn't it. Instead of going directly from the UK to Germany, many traders do the same by going via Eire. It will increase their costs, but while there is still a profit to be made the traders will do it. As Eire is in the EU I would presume the import/export rules are exactly the same as those applied in Germany? There wasa huge fuss made about the border in Northern Ireland being abused to get around the fact that the UK is no longer in the EU. You will recall the fuss about the labelling and documentation. Yours Nobby is purely anecdotal opinion and not cemented by evidence. As a counter, on your chosen basis, I listened to an interview yesterday with a guy from Northern Ireland who runs a garden centre business over there. He quoted direct experience of importing plants from the UK mainland. It is so time consuming, paper work, customs clearance, agricultural inspection, that it can take two months for an order to be delivered. So bad that he now orders two months in advance, arranges for all paperwork and clearances himself and then drives his own van over to pick up his order. There you go, a bit of actuality to counter your theoretical presumptions. You can nibble at the edges but the day to the actual reality is a disaster for unencumbered free trade. It was R4, if nobody believes me I try and find a link. |
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Post by Nobbygas on Jun 23, 2023 14:19:34 GMT
Why is a real life conversation I had deemed as " purely anecdotal opinion and not cemented by evidence", whereas your radio interview is valid? You do know the rules regarding soil/plants and exporting to the EU? and this poor guy should even have to be doing this as it'd a goods transfer within the UK! The problems he is facing are caused by the EU.
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 4,401
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Post by oldie on Jun 23, 2023 14:20:46 GMT
As Eire is in the EU I would presume the import/export rules are exactly the same as those applied in Germany? There wasa huge fuss made about the border in Northern Ireland being abused to get around the fact that the UK is no longer in the EU. You will recall the fuss about the labelling and documentation. Yours Nobby is purely anecdotal opinion and not cemented by evidence. As a counter, on your chosen basis, I listened to an interview yesterday with a guy from Northern Ireland who runs a garden centre business over there. He quoted direct experience of importing plants from the UK mainland. It is so time consuming, paper work, customs clearance, agricultural inspection, that it can take two months for an order to be delivered. So bad that he now orders two months in advance, arranges for all paperwork and clearances himself and then drives his own van over to pick up his order. There you go, a bit of actuality to counter your theoretical presumptions. You can nibble at the edges but the day to the actual reality is a disaster for unencumbered free trade. It was R4, if nobody believes me I try and find a link. To quote a bygone era "No FT, no comment" 😉🤭 |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 4,401
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Post by oldie on Jun 23, 2023 14:37:38 GMT
Why is a real life conversation I had deemed as " purely anecdotal opinion and not cemented by evidence", whereas your radio interview is valid? You do know the rules regarding soil/plants and exporting to the EU? and this poor guy should even have to be doing this as it'd a goods transfer within the UK! The problems he is facing are caused by the EU. Why? Because you provide no evidence, where as I quoted the guy who gave an account live on R4 who is actually trading in NI, who quoted actual experience. Btw, he quoted his pre Brexit experience where he said, I paraphrase, "I used to just pick up the phone and days later my order arrived. Now some suppliers on the mainland find it so cumbersome they do not want to bother" He was not chatting to me down the pub, but speaking independently live on the BBC R4. Anyway, readers of this can choose which viewpoint has the most validity...all three of them😜🤣🤣 Pretty straightforward really. |
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Cheshiregas
Global Moderator
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,166
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Post by Cheshiregas on Jun 23, 2023 15:23:53 GMT
Why is a real life conversation I had deemed as " purely anecdotal opinion and not cemented by evidence", whereas your radio interview is valid? You do know the rules regarding soil/plants and exporting to the EU? and this poor guy should even have to be doing this as it'd a goods transfer within the UK! The problems he is facing are caused by the EU. Those rules are in place for a reason, to protect the quality of foodstuffs in the EU. It means all EU states have to agree to certain standards and countries outside the EU, like Britain, have to prove they can maintain those same standards. That requires a significant amount of paperwork. I would point out that the UK was the worst in negotiations for setting very high standards when we were in the EU - the same standards that are now hamstringing us. How do I know? I met the Belgian Ambassador to the UK when we were still in the EU. We were talking about trade and he said the UK were the toughest negotiators when setting high standards [at that time] in cross EU negotiations. But [again at that time] we would also be accepted as the people who would follow and maintain hose standards. I would ask you Nobby, why, when we are NOT a member of the EU, should we be exempt of rules made for ALL non EU countries, except those with trade agreements? Why should we be treated differently. We helped make the rules for third party countries, now we have to obey them. Secondly, above you give anecdotes as examples, as I just have. That's fine, but also you say 'So, just looking at the numbers doesn't represent the reality of what is actually happening.'Facts are reality. That is how future generations will judge this time. They won't look at Joe or Franz with their shops, they will look at the statistics and see that trade is falling, and that in many areas the UK has not recovered to pre pandemic trade levels, and that Brexit has damaged the UK for the long term Even Rees Smugg said it may take 50 years for the UK to benefit; AFTER the referendum you note and not before!!! By which time he and his Cayman Island companies will still have paid zero tax. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 4,401
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Post by oldie on Jun 23, 2023 20:47:27 GMT
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