Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Apr 24, 2023 10:54:04 GMT
www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/24/uk-evacuation-sudan-british-nationalsBritish nationals still in Sudan cannot be given any assurances about evacuations, the UK development minister has said, as a storm gathers over the UK’s decision to rescue only its diplomats over the weekend, when other countries were evacuating diplomats and nationals. Andrew Mitchell said about 2,000 Britons in Sudan had registered with the Foreign Office, and the government was “exploring every single possible way of getting them out”. But he warned: “I simply cannot give any assurances and [it] wouldn’t be responsible to do so.” The Conservative chair of the foreign affairs select committee, Alicia Kearns, said the Foreign Office did not appear to have learned lessons from the evacuation from Afghanistan, judging by its communications with British nationals in Sudan. Kearns estimated there could be “3,000, 4,000-plus” British nationals stuck in Sudan. She said if the UK decided it could not attempt to rescue the remaining nationals, it needed to communicate that decision to them so they were not left waiting for an operation that would not happen. “We have a moral obligation to tell British nationals as soon as possible that is the judgment that has been made, because they then need to make their own decisions,” Kearns told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme. She agreed it was unacceptable that British nationals who had registered with the Foreign Office had received just two computer-generated messages in the past week.... At least, unlike Dominic Raab, with Afghanistan, the Minister doesn't appear to be on holiday this time, but sadly just as ineffective. For balance, other outlets - Sky News - There are understood to be around 4,000 British passport holders in Sudan - as foreign secretary James Cleverly warned the UK government is "severely limited" in its ability to help British nationals until the conflict there ends. Independent - Sudan war – live: British citizens stuck in Khartoum accuse UK of abandoning them. The Independent has spoken to a father-of-two who claimed that the British embassy has fled despite advising British nationals in the war-torn country to stay put after fierce clashes erupted between the country’s two top generals. The man, who asked for his name to be withheld for his safety, said the embassy “cut and run” leaving British nationals behind and “ignoring their own advice to stay put”. Daily Express - British nationals in Sudan have accused Rishi Sunak and the Government of not doing anything to get them out as they remain trapped and fighting intensifies. Rishi Sunak held two Cobra meetings on Saturday to draw up plans to evacuate those in Sudan, saying the Government is "doing everything possible". But a teacher in Sudan accused the Government of "ridiculous" and "farcical" attempts. William, a teacher, told the Times it took five days for the embassy to contact them with information. He had been given a number to register with the Foreign Office, but was then unable to get through and was forced to ask family back in the UK to call the number. Daily Mail - The SAS led a dramatic rescue of British diplomats from war-torn Khartoum yesterday – but fears remain for UK nationals trapped in the Sudanese capital. While Foreign Office officials and their families were escorted to safety, terrified Britons hunkering down in the city were told to rely on a telephone hotline for updates as street battles raged around them. It comes as hundreds of other British nationals in Khartoum face an uncertain fate, with many complaining of feeling 'abandoned' after the Government told them to seek shelter while embassy staff were rescued. Other outlets behind payment firewall
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 4,401
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Post by oldie on Apr 24, 2023 12:05:35 GMT
It's never ending. One fiasco after another it seems
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Apr 24, 2023 12:44:58 GMT
In fairness this one is more difficult than Afghanistan (challenging in itself) because we do not have the boots on the ground there.
Will be interesting to see how we respond. My guess is that there will be an Ops centre already up and running and planning interventions. Lack of comms to affected people is not good enough and no doubt ministers will be quick to accuse woke lefty civil servants of obstructing them rather than any error or lack of decisions on their part.
Id also guess that we don’t have the capacity for a mass emergency evacuation. Perhaps we could work with with our new best mates on the trade front (eg Brunei or Peru) to pool resources and intelligence to effect a joint rescue mission?
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 4,401
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Post by oldie on Apr 24, 2023 12:51:58 GMT
"Perhaps we could work with with our new best mates on the trade front (eg Brunei or Peru) to pool resources and intelligence to effect a joint rescue mission"
Oooh...biting
🤭🤭🤭🤭
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Post by baselswh on Apr 24, 2023 13:18:53 GMT
Apparently the Americans are in the same boat as us and they have far more resources.
Too dangerous at the moment.
Why did'nt they (UK and USA) start getting nationals out sooner?
I don't know.
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Post by Nobbygas on Apr 24, 2023 13:45:24 GMT
It takes time to get assets in place (ie. ships, planes, troops etc) to facilitate an emergency evacuation like this. Unfortunately, the British public have only recently been made aware of the drastic draw down of the armed forces. The UK just doesn't have these assets sat on their arses waiting for something to happen in the world.
Personally, if I were working in an area that I considered 'dodgy' I would have prepared a full evacuation plan myself. People just cannot sit there and moan that the government is not doing enough to get them out. The government didn't send them. Military personal may have to risk their lives rescuing people.
I was in Port Sudan about 13 years ago. Not a place that I would consider safe.
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Apr 24, 2023 22:10:47 GMT
Absolutely, and so would I.
There will be some deluded individuals who still live in the days of Empire though who will expect us to send a Battleship despite the fact thatse haven't had one for over 70 years
Interesting to see that our European friends have managed to evacuate several hundred people including Brits. If our RW media even notice this it will soon be forgotten when they pander to the common British xenophobe
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Post by Nobbygas on Apr 25, 2023 8:01:01 GMT
Let's try and put some realism into the nonsense being spouted in the media, and on here.
Everyone is shouting for the government to get their fingers out and execute a mass evacuation of UK nationals from Sudan. Practically everyone shouting this has no idea of what is involved.
First off, these 4,000 people are not all located in one place just waiting to be taken out. They are spread far and wide over a great distance, The first problem is identifying who are there and where they are. Next, how do the forces get to them? There is not a Helicopter Carrier sat off the coast that can supply twenty helicopters for this mission. As I mentioned earlier, the UK just does not have these assets available. If there are a couple located in a remote spot, do we send ten Royal Marines in a vehicle to pick them up? Are the logistics and support in place to support those ten Marines in a war zone? Is it wise to risk another ten lives to save two? So, it's not wise to send small units far and wide in a war zone. Multiply that by a factor of fifty, and you can see the problems being faced by the troops on the ground. What will happen is that the UK forces will establish secure locations and it will be up to the people to make their way there. In a few extreme cases troops may 'go out' to bring some people to the secure location. A mass evacuation is a complex event and not something you can do in a day or two.
Don't forget that British troops are paid below the minimum wage, they don't get a single penny extra for this work and the guys on the ground in Sudan are basically on duty 24 hours a day. They also want to come home to their families at some point.
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Apr 25, 2023 8:45:23 GMT
The complaint was about the response, and those who are in the capital Khartoum are feeling abandoned as the diplomats pull out.
No one expects the UK to get all 3/4000 out and yes, they should have their own plans.
But to be told to call a number which isn't answered, and to get automated responses to emails and no updates on the situation is farcical.
And because this Government fails to react or listen, troops are more likely to be put in danger.
You of all people should know how disastrous the failure to plan can be.
This Government can't even get the basics right.
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Cheshiregas
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Joined: May 2014
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Post by Cheshiregas on Apr 25, 2023 9:00:44 GMT
Looks like the US and Saudi Arabia have brokered a ceasefire.
The French are coordinating the EU response and over 500 evacuated already having secured an airfield and is coordinating with Germany
UK has landed a Hercules C160 with another in the air from Akrotiri
Uk says it will call people and tell them what to do.....
Foreign Secretary - “We have established contact with a number of British nationals and we are talking directly with them, although we recognise the ability to maintain consistent communications is difficult,
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Post by Nobbygas on Apr 25, 2023 9:23:40 GMT
The complaint was about the response, and those who are in the capital Khartoum are feeling abandoned as the diplomats pull out. No one expects the UK to get all 3/4000 out and yes, they should have their own plans. But to be told to call a number which isn't answered, and to get automated responses to emails and no updates on the situation is farcical. And because this Government fails to react or listen, troops are more likely to be put in danger. You of all people should know how disastrous the failure to plan can be. This Government can't even get the basics right. I think the problem is not so much with the government, but with the Foreign Office, as was shown during the Afghan debacle. Contingency plans for events like this should be drawn up and in place. The FO would be responsible for this, not government ministers who are probably only in the job for a couple of years. The MoD should be responsible for the military side of it, but both plans should have been drawn up in tandem. It's precisely for this reason that the Civil Service exists. The diplomats were easy to pull out as they were all in one place. As for other countries getting people out, as I said earlier, it's all about having the assets available and at hand. |
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Apr 25, 2023 10:27:05 GMT
The complaint was about the response, and those who are in the capital Khartoum are feeling abandoned as the diplomats pull out. No one expects the UK to get all 3/4000 out and yes, they should have their own plans. But to be told to call a number which isn't answered, and to get automated responses to emails and no updates on the situation is farcical. And because this Government fails to react or listen, troops are more likely to be put in danger. You of all people should know how disastrous the failure to plan can be. This Government can't even get the basics right. I think the problem is not so much with the government, but with the Foreign Office, as was shown during the Afghan debacle. Contingency plans for events like this should be drawn up and in place. The FO would be responsible for this, not government ministers who are probably only in the job for a couple of years. The MoD should be responsible for the military side of it, but both plans should have been drawn up in tandem. It's precisely for this reason that the Civil Service exists. The diplomats were easy to pull out as they were all in one place. As for other countries getting people out, as I said earlier, it's all about having the assets available and at hand. Totally agree Nobby, but the attitude is led by the politicians. The hardline attitude by Government departments towards benefit claimants, asylum seekers, care and health was brought in with Theresa May to grab headlines. Civil servants have a duty to the Government of the day hence Raab losing his sh!t over the response he got. They are supposed to be politically neutral but he insisted on full on following what he wanted. Appreciate what you say about MoD but when have they ever been efficient? At least in Sudan those who work for the UK won't be sought out and killed as they were in Afghanistan. |
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Apr 25, 2023 12:42:17 GMT
The complaint was about the response, and those who are in the capital Khartoum are feeling abandoned as the diplomats pull out. No one expects the UK to get all 3/4000 out and yes, they should have their own plans. But to be told to call a number which isn't answered, and to get automated responses to emails and no updates on the situation is farcical. And because this Government fails to react or listen, troops are more likely to be put in danger. You of all people should know how disastrous the failure to plan can be. This Government can't even get the basics right. I think the problem is not so much with the government, but with the Foreign Office, as was shown during the Afghan debacle. Contingency plans for events like this should be drawn up and in place. The FO would be responsible for this, not government ministers who are probably only in the job for a couple of years. The MoD should be responsible for the military side of it, but both plans should have been drawn up in tandem. It's precisely for this reason that the Civil Service exists. The diplomats were easy to pull out as they were all in one place. As for other countries getting people out, as I said earlier, it's all about having the assets available and at hand. The foreign office is of course headed up by Government Ministers who will approve key decisions and significant plans of action such as a mass evacuation. The civil servants in that Department do not have the authority to and will not take such wide ranging action without this being approved by the Government. If those Government ministers are not available eg because they are floating around the Med on a lilo, then action will stall. For all crises like this there will be a cross Government Ops centre set up in a lead Government department - likely MOD in this case - and there will be contingency plans in place that will be dusted off and followed. Once key ministerial decisions are made then action plans will be implemented swiftly afterward. It is a pretty well oiled machine and I know this from first hand experience Where things usually go wrong are when Ministers either will not make those decisions or make politically expedient ones based on their own perceptions and biases rather than on the advice they have been given from a range of experts including the Military and Civil Servants. The more competent the Minister then the better the chance of a successful outcome which is why Dominic Raab was so disastrous with the Afghan debacle. Again I know this from personal experience. Operations also tend to fail when they are run within a climate of fear which promotes group think shere alternative views and opinions are dismissed out of hand. Read the Chilcott report if you want evidence of this You are correct that we do not have the resources sat around to do this so it will take time to get everything in place to effect any sort of rescue mission, and it is going to be challenging for all the reasons you say. If Ben Wallace has the lead on the Operation then I’d say there is a reasonable chance of it succeeding. If it is Braverman then it is f**ked before it starts. Two questions that will need to be answered in due course are why do we appear to have been caught on the hop (possible intelligence failure) and why has the FO comms been so woeful. The answer to the latter one could well be linked to the competence of our Foreign Secretary if decisions have not been made and there is no meaningful info to communicate ( and I know this is speculation on my part). |
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Apr 25, 2023 13:19:30 GMT
Bloody leftie papers spreading negative news..... oh, it's the Telegraph!
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Apr 26, 2023 13:18:48 GMT
Planes now bringing people out albeit things are described as chaotic. Actually think they’ve done OK to achieve this although behind our European neighbours. Pretty certain Wallace must be leading operations rather than Cruella as things are happening and we are not trying to break the law or human rights legislation and international agreements we have signed up to.
Good work from the Military and the woke lefty civil servants who oppose Government decisions
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