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Post by irenestoyboy on Dec 26, 2021 15:08:41 GMT
But going back to the PC, what can they do for the football club going forward? How are they going to assist supporters connect with the club to promote the family feel which is a concern for those who think it’s being lost? What kind of additional revenue or value can they bring to assist the professional running of the football club? I think that's it in a nutshell from the little reported about when knowall and John met Tom and Colonel Mustard, it seems that there was nothing useful in terms of a way forward which seems a shame, after the SC thing seems to have been very effectively refreshed I don’t think that it helped that the PC went in to that meeting and the question was asked of the FC, what exactly were the FC prepared to do for them? If they are still struggling with that then they may as well close it down now because the FC, under the current ownership owe them nothing, especially when they haven’t given anything financially for years. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2021 15:52:46 GMT
The main thing about what you say is that when clubs do something like swap Maine Rd for The Etihad and start to operate like a real business, and in so doing disrupt the personal nature of the relationship that some people have with their club, is that there's a quid pro quo, and it's that you sacrifice that personal relationship for success. Just surveying the landscape, 4th tier, Barton, huge losses, stadium disintegrating before our eyes. Hmmmm. It did help them being in the premier league at the time of their take over by one of the biggest investment companies in the world. That’s the gripe amongst most prem fans against them that Shiekh Mansour didn’t really have to build anything other that supply a gravy train of managers and players through unlimited wealth from Abu Dabi. Not exactly the private investment of one family. I think you're making a different point. Mine was that we've sacrificed our 'local, family club' status, and all we've been given in exchange for it so far is a manager who disgusts me, failure on the pitch, and a terrible return for the amount of money being spent. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2021 15:55:19 GMT
I think that's it in a nutshell from the little reported about when knowall and John met Tom and Colonel Mustard, it seems that there was nothing useful in terms of a way forward which seems a shame, after the SC thing seems to have been very effectively refreshed I don’t think that it helped that the PC went in to that meeting and the question was asked of the FC, what exactly were the FC prepared to do for them? If they are still struggling with that then they may as well close it down now because the FC, under the current ownership owe them nothing, especially when they haven’t given anything financially for years. Handing money over is no guarantee of a close relationship is it. Can you remind me please, what was the SC shareholding prior the the Share Scheme, how much cash has been handed over and what the share holding is today? |
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Post by swissgas on Dec 26, 2021 15:56:51 GMT
I agree that transparency is important because if there isn’t any it appears to be a closed shop with applicants only subject to approval if their face fits. Do you think Rovers carried out a formal recruitment process before appointing David Bright, Louise Smith and David Fear ? Are you saying they didn’t? I asked you first.  |
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Post by swissgas on Dec 26, 2021 16:10:30 GMT
I'm finding this thread quite informative It seems to me that the club is being led in a new and more professional direction, and that there are some vocal fans who have had their relationship with the club changed against their will. So they feel upset and disenfranchised. But things do change, and an ability to adapt and find a new role and relationship is required to thrive in life Many seem to me to see their club like a church - a timeless constant in a sea of change. But even churches change, usually after tumult of the type we've seen within some BRFC institutions Manure, Chelski, PSG etc have become global brands. Manure have become a huge source of dividends for the owning family. Man City have, I believe, helped regenerate a big chunk of their hood 82 have a posh stand and training centre. We've just got a less posh training centre - which is still a massive step forward Maybe some babies have gone out with the bathwater, but the need for change and more professionalism seems clear to me So apart from the Joeybag bit, which seems the definition of dilletante amateurism to me, I think like the direction of travel - it is more of a business, and less of a club, but I don't see any option if the team is to do well When do you think this greater professionalism started ? I thought it had started in February 2016 but that didn’t quite work out. Then we had Wael’s new vision in June 2020 which very quickly faded away. So I guess we’ll just have to believe the greater professionalism started earlier this month after Martyn Starnes, Tommy Widdrington, Shaun Roberts, Ben Rendle, Kerry Price, Nikki Parker and James Hayhoe had been shown the door. But it’s a bit early to say the greater professionalism is working isn’t it ? |
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Post by irenestoyboy on Dec 26, 2021 17:04:19 GMT
Are you saying they didn’t? I asked you first. I don’t know the definitive answer which is why I asked the question. I’ll make a fairly good assumption we won’t offer terms without a robust interview process. |
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Post by irenestoyboy on Dec 26, 2021 17:07:42 GMT
I'm finding this thread quite informative It seems to me that the club is being led in a new and more professional direction, and that there are some vocal fans who have had their relationship with the club changed against their will. So they feel upset and disenfranchised. But things do change, and an ability to adapt and find a new role and relationship is required to thrive in life Many seem to me to see their club like a church - a timeless constant in a sea of change. But even churches change, usually after tumult of the type we've seen within some BRFC institutions Manure, Chelski, PSG etc have become global brands. Manure have become a huge source of dividends for the owning family. Man City have, I believe, helped regenerate a big chunk of their hood 82 have a posh stand and training centre. We've just got a less posh training centre - which is still a massive step forward Maybe some babies have gone out with the bathwater, but the need for change and more professionalism seems clear to me So apart from the Joeybag bit, which seems the definition of dilletante amateurism to me, I think like the direction of travel - it is more of a business, and less of a club, but I don't see any option if the team is to do well When do you think this greater professionalism started ? I thought it had started in February 2016 but that didn’t quite work out. Then we had Wael’s new vision in June 2020 which very quickly faded away. So I guess we’ll just have to believe the greater professionalism started earlier this month after Martyn Starnes, Tommy Widdrington, Shaun Roberts, Ben Rendle, Kerry Price, Nikki Parker and James Hayhoe had been shown the door. But it’s a bit early to say the greater professionalism is working isn’t it ? I think we can all agree the club was let down by MS and TW appointments, WAQ included. It’s probably best they did depart. Kerry is still employed by the club as far as I’m aware but is currently on a leave of absence due to personal reasons which haven’t been instigated by the club. |
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Post by irenestoyboy on Dec 26, 2021 17:09:09 GMT
I don’t think that it helped that the PC went in to that meeting and the question was asked of the FC, what exactly were the FC prepared to do for them? If they are still struggling with that then they may as well close it down now because the FC, under the current ownership owe them nothing, especially when they haven’t given anything financially for years. Handing money over is no guarantee of a close relationship is it. Can you remind me please, what was the SC shareholding prior the the Share Scheme, how much cash has been handed over and what the share holding is today? I didn’t say it was, but you can’t really call the shots when the club exists to support the FC and you have done nothing but work against it since the Wael has owned/run it. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2021 17:17:31 GMT
Handing money over is no guarantee of a close relationship is it. Can you remind me please, what was the SC shareholding prior the the Share Scheme, how much cash has been handed over and what the share holding is today? I didn’t say it was, but you can’t really call the shots when the club exists to support the FC and you have done nothing but work against it since the Wael has owned/run it. I guess you would have to define what it means to support the FC. It doesn't always mean supporting what any of the management team, or even the owner is doing. If you believe that what's happening isn't in the best interests of the FC, then by definition, supporting the club sometimes could mean opposing the official line. Of course, you wouldn't play that card in public whenever there was a minor disagreement, but on a point of principle, or a major issue, you may find yourself compelled to. I mentioned the Share Scheme and how much it's put in to the FC as you've mentioned cash support a couple of times in recent posts. It doesn't appear that counts for much really, does it. Do you know the shareholding figures, or the Share Scheme total investment? |
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Post by a more piratey game on Dec 26, 2021 19:11:15 GMT
I'm finding this thread quite informative It seems to me that the club is being led in a new and more professional direction, and that there are some vocal fans who have had their relationship with the club changed against their will. So they feel upset and disenfranchised. But things do change, and an ability to adapt and find a new role and relationship is required to thrive in life Many seem to me to see their club like a church - a timeless constant in a sea of change. But even churches change, usually after tumult of the type we've seen within some BRFC institutions Manure, Chelski, PSG etc have become global brands. Manure have become a huge source of dividends for the owning family. Man City have, I believe, helped regenerate a big chunk of their hood 82 have a posh stand and training centre. We've just got a less posh training centre - which is still a massive step forward Maybe some babies have gone out with the bathwater, but the need for change and more professionalism seems clear to me So apart from the Joeybag bit, which seems the definition of dilletante amateurism to me, I think like the direction of travel - it is more of a business, and less of a club, but I don't see any option if the team is to do well When do you think this greater professionalism started ? I thought it had started in February 2016 but that didn’t quite work out. Then we had Wael’s new vision in June 2020 which very quickly faded away. So I guess we’ll just have to believe the greater professionalism started earlier this month after Martyn Starnes, Tommy Widdrington, Shaun Roberts, Ben Rendle, Kerry Price, Nikki Parker and James Hayhoe had been shown the door. But it’s a bit early to say the greater professionalism is working isn’t it ? I'd probably agree re Feb 16ish my take is Wael's 2020 vision was a continuation of same - but he had the independence to implement it now as to whether it's working, I'd say it's a bit of a curate's egg thus far |
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Post by swissgas on Dec 26, 2021 19:11:42 GMT
I asked you first. I don’t know the definitive answer which is why I asked the question. I’ll make a fairly good assumption we won’t offer terms without a robust interview process. Based upon past history I’d wager there was no formal recruitment process and no robust interviewing. You only have to look at how Tom Gorringe and Martyn Starnes came to be at the the club. |
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Post by swissgas on Dec 26, 2021 19:39:00 GMT
When do you think this greater professionalism started ? I thought it had started in February 2016 but that didn’t quite work out. Then we had Wael’s new vision in June 2020 which very quickly faded away. So I guess we’ll just have to believe the greater professionalism started earlier this month after Martyn Starnes, Tommy Widdrington, Shaun Roberts, Ben Rendle, Kerry Price, Nikki Parker and James Hayhoe had been shown the door. But it’s a bit early to say the greater professionalism is working isn’t it ? I think we can all agree the club was let down by MS and TW appointments, WAQ included. It’s probably best they did depart. Kerry is still employed by the club as far as I’m aware but is currently on a leave of absence due to personal reasons which haven’t been instigated by the club. I’m not trying to be confrontational ITB, because I’m sure you have the best interests of Rovers at heart, but you do seem to have flip flopped on JB and now Martyn Starnes. When Martyn was appointed I expressed reservations because I didn’t think he was the right person for the job. But the majority said it was a great appointment, he was an experienced football man and we had probably “headhunted” him from Plymouth because of his knowledge about the ground improvements they were undertaking at the time. Because this was the first paid CEO Rovers had employed I suggested it would be important for him to quickly set out exactly what his role was, the goals he had been set and how he intended to achieve them. If he did this I felt there was a chance he could succeed which would obviously be very good for Rovers. What we got was a muddled statement from Martyn which was mainly about him being excited about the role which the club could play in the community. And later on he admitted he had left Plymouth for personal reasons and was looking for a job so he called Wael, whom he had met previously at a football conference, and Wael said “ come and join us”. This is not the method a successful business uses to select its key personnel but I have a horrible feeling the three new people who have recently joined were recruited in a similar way. Because of the lack of transparency it wouldn’t surprise me if they were all previously known to Tom Gorringe and have been brought in to fill gaps because their face fits with him. Let’s hope I am wrong on this. |
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Post by a more piratey game on Dec 26, 2021 19:55:52 GMT
I think we can all agree the club was let down by MS and TW appointments, WAQ included. It’s probably best they did depart. Kerry is still employed by the club as far as I’m aware but is currently on a leave of absence due to personal reasons which haven’t been instigated by the club. Because this was the first paid CEO Rovers had employed I suggested it would be important for him to quickly set out exactly what his role was, the goals he had been set and how he intended to achieve them. If he did this I felt there was a chance he could succeed which would obviously be very good for Rovers. What we got was a muddled statement from Martyn which was mainly about him being excited about the role which the club could play in the community. I don't blame him for not speaking about what his role and goals are - he'd just arrived, needed to work it out for himself, and to have spoken would only have held himself out as a hostage to fortune so I think your expectation was unrealistic swiss (if you were his boss I think it might have been reasonable, but with 6k bosses every home game it made no sense at all) |
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Post by irenestoyboy on Dec 26, 2021 20:01:03 GMT
I don’t know the definitive answer which is why I asked the question. I’ll make a fairly good assumption we won’t offer terms without a robust interview process. Based upon past history I’d wager there was no formal recruitment process and no robust interviewing. You only have to look at how Tom Gorringe and Martyn Starnes came to be at the the club. Unless you were part of the recruitment process you aren’t in a position to comment specifically just make an assumption. I’ve interviewed and employed hundreds of people over the years and pretty much know and have employed every tactic under the sun when doing so. Some people I’ve employed have been absolute superstars, some are typical 9-5ers who take their wages for a fair days work and some do not live up to their interview skills in real time and can cause nothing but problems. My point is, you can grill and ask as many questions as you like but until you get anyone into the working environment you never will be able to truly judge or assume their performance. |
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Post by irenestoyboy on Dec 26, 2021 20:14:34 GMT
I think we can all agree the club was let down by MS and TW appointments, WAQ included. It’s probably best they did depart. Kerry is still employed by the club as far as I’m aware but is currently on a leave of absence due to personal reasons which haven’t been instigated by the club. I’m not trying to be confrontational ITB, because I’m sure you have the best interests of Rovers at heart, but you do seem to have flip flopped on JB and now Martyn Starnes. When Martyn was appointed I expressed reservations because I didn’t think he was the right person for the job. But the majority said it was a great appointment, he was an experienced football man and we had probably “headhunted” him from Plymouth because of his knowledge about the ground improvements they were undertaking at the time. Because this was the first paid CEO Rovers had employed I suggested it would be important for him to quickly set out exactly what his role was, the goals he had been set and how he intended to achieve them. If he did this I felt there was a chance he could succeed which would obviously be very good for Rovers. What we got was a muddled statement from Martyn which was mainly about him being excited about the role which the club could play in the community. And later on he admitted he had left Plymouth for personal reasons and was looking for a job so he called Wael, whom he had met previously at a football conference, and Wael said “ come and join us”. This is not the method a successful business uses to select its key personnel but I have a horrible feeling the three new people who have recently joined were recruited in a similar way. Because of the lack of transparency it wouldn’t surprise me if they were all previously known to Tom Gorringe and have been brought in to fill gaps because their face fits with him. Let’s hope I am wrong on this. I know you’re not Swiss, if anything I respect the manner of your posts. To clarify, I’ve not flip flopped on JB. My opinion has always been that I don’t like the guy as a human being, his morals or principals, he wouldn’t be my pick as a gaffer but it’s not my decision. However I support Rovers, managers will come and go, and I’ll be praiseworthy on performance when it’s due as much as I will be critical. Want I won’t do is join the Barton out brigade just because he’s JB, that does not help the club or serve in its best interests. Wael isn’t going to sack him because some fans don’t like him, he’ll get sacked when the time is right and the whole club don’t like him, probably for football under performance. Martyn is a lovely guy, I’ll admit I liked him, he was always very friendly to me and my son at games and on the odd time I popped up to the club on non match days we would have a coffee and a yarn if he was about. At the start he had a bit of a thankless task on his hands, cutting costs, dealing with Hamer, he had to handle the parting of ways with DC and probably a host of other things that we don’t know about from the early days of ALQ ownership that was fragmented under the chairmanship of the waffle man. As much as I like Martyn, it’s hard to defend some of the footballing decisions that were made under his reign, sacking Garner when they did, employing Tisdale, not being strategic enough in the Jan window. The chemistry just wasn’t right and whether he left under his own steam or he jumped because he knew he was going to be pushed we will never know but the wheels certainly came off post GC. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2021 21:05:51 GMT
Good Lord.
Criticism for appointing Tisdale but not for bringing in Barton.
Quite incredible.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2021 21:44:56 GMT
"...Wael isn’t going to sack him because some fans don’t like him, he’ll get sacked when the time is right and the whole club don’t like him, probably for football under performance..."
Would a relegation and 17th spot in Division 4 at Christmas qualify as football underperformance?
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Post by swissgas on Dec 26, 2021 21:50:23 GMT
Because this was the first paid CEO Rovers had employed I suggested it would be important for him to quickly set out exactly what his role was, the goals he had been set and how he intended to achieve them. If he did this I felt there was a chance he could succeed which would obviously be very good for Rovers. What we got was a muddled statement from Martyn which was mainly about him being excited about the role which the club could play in the community. I don't blame him for not speaking about what his role and goals are - he'd just arrived, needed to work it out for himself, and to have spoken would only have held himself out as a hostage to fortune so I think your expectation was unrealistic swiss (if you were his boss I think it might have been reasonable, but with 6k bosses every home game it made no sense at all) I couldn’t disagree more Piratey. A successful business has a strategy and recruits people to implement that strategy it doesn’t wait for someone to call up looking for a job, give them one, and then think about what that person is going to do. If Wael had seriously been looking for a CEO he would have gone into the market knowing exactly the role he needed that person to play and selected the candidate who had demonstrated he or she was best suited to fulfill the role. In which case it would be very easy for the appointee to explain their role and how they planned to go about fulfilling it. |
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Post by a more piratey game on Dec 26, 2021 21:54:54 GMT
I don't blame him for not speaking about what his role and goals are - he'd just arrived, needed to work it out for himself, and to have spoken would only have held himself out as a hostage to fortune so I think your expectation was unrealistic swiss (if you were his boss I think it might have been reasonable, but with 6k bosses every home game it made no sense at all) I couldn’t disagree more Piratey. A successful business has a strategy and recruits people to implement that strategy it doesn’t wait for someone to call up looking for a job, give them one, and then think about what that person is going to do. If Wael had seriously been looking for a CEO he would have gone into the market knowing exactly the role he needed that person to play and selected the candidate who had demonstrated he or she was best suited to fulfill the role. In which case it would be very easy for the appointee to explain their role and how they planned to go about fulfilling it. I'm disagreeing on to whom he should explain it |
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Post by irenestoyboy on Dec 26, 2021 22:07:11 GMT
Good Lord. Criticism for appointing Tisdale but not for bringing in Barton. Quite incredible. I’ve said I wouldn’t have appointed him and didn’t like him as manager, probably for all the same reasons as you. I sledged Tisdale for under performance and stupid team selection when he was in charge and I’ve done the same to Barton both on forums and on 20man RB programme as well. I couldn’t be any more critical of the bloke. But as long as he is the manager, come kick off on match days I’ll be behind the team. |
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