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Post by swissgas on Sept 15, 2021 17:21:45 GMT
Basel had said he thought Wael's ambitions were limited to Rovers being a League 1/ League 2 club and he had no intention of building a new stadium. Droitwich Gas replied and said he thought Wael spending £20 million on Rovers and starting to build a training ground showed he had the ambition for Rovers to be a Championship club. I disagree with both of them and think Wael wants to make Rovers as successful as he can but has little idea of how to do it. And spending £30 million doesn't show ambition it just shows how costly his mistakes have been. The training ground was only started because no plans had been made for when the Cribbs lease ended and after Wael inherited a lot of money he was desperate to spend it and plunged into this project with very little forethought. I posted a video of the Stevenage training ground to illustrate a number of points. Firstly that engaging MJ Abbott to build pitches is not as special as many Gasheads seem to think it is because many clubs, even in the lower leagues, have used them. Secondly, looking at the video and seeing the way the place is set up you get the feel of an owner managing his business and putting a personal stamp on it. Thirdly, if you do the research you will see that Stevenage invested in this facility on the back of an upward wave where they had graduated from non-league to League 1 in a short space of time and they must have looked at alternatives and felt this would be a good move to sustain their momentum. Unfortunately, after one season at the training ground they were relegated to League 2 and have stayed there ever since which may ring a few bells. It is difficult to understand why you don't see my putting forward alternative strategies and ideas for bringing about business and football success as a positive. Being negative is accepting failure, constantly seeking false positives and waiting around hoping one day something better will turn up. Swiss. How is that £30m arrived at please? Roughly speaking. £ 18 million capitalised £ 1 million still owing to Dwane at 30.06.20 £ 3 million estimated trading losses 20/21 £ 3 million the club said would be extra losses in 20/21 due to Covid £ 1 million estimated trading losses first quarter of 21/22 £ 1 million acquisition of land at Almondsbury £ 2 million estimated 20/21 construction costs at Almondsbury £ 1 million dropped in reservoir by mistake * * I made that one up but you could argue that having no financial return on such large sums of money over five years amounts to an even greater financial loss |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 17:23:59 GMT
'Everybody' eh? I think not - but there you go. Again, you've let your bias cloud your ability to stop and think for a second. I didn't claim that 'everybody' is engaging in any one act. What I said was that everybody who is making a comparison between the 2 developments appears to be setting what Stevenage have as a benchmark to aspire towards. Thanks. What I would advise in future would perhaps be to say "the two or three people" rather than "everybody".
Much clearer, and certainly more accurate.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 17:33:25 GMT
Swiss. How is that £30m arrived at please? Stand by, this should be fun..
Whilist at it perhaps we can obtain a similar breakdown of Lansdowns mistakes (losses) and lack of ambition that led to the new Ashton Gate
Or even go a stage further and get a breakdown of Abramovich's £billions of mistakes and lack of ambition that led to them being European champions
I think Steve Lansdown was guilty of being naive when he lost the chance of building at Ashton Vale. An experienced developer would have fenced off the site before the locals even knew what was going on. Higgs did this at UWE but we know that nothing came next. At least Steve Lansdown had a plan b and although I've only been to the new Ashton Gate for a concert I was very impressed with what I saw. Apparently the hospitality areas are exceptional so he hasn't done too badly. I know Steve and he takes great delight saying that he never spends more than what he earns each year so his billions and his family are safe from the losses that football can bring. As for Abramovich, we all know that Russian money is bent money even the UK government revoked his passport but he has got in through the back door by obtaining Channel Islands citizenship although nobody has ever seen him at his Jersey home. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 17:34:11 GMT
Swiss. How is that £30m arrived at please? Roughly speaking. £ 18 million capitalised £ 1 million still owing to Dwane at 30.06.20 £ 3 million estimated trading losses 20/21 £ 3 million the club said would be extra losses in 20/21 due to Covid £ 1 million estimated trading losses first quarter of 21/22 £ 1 million acquisition of land at Almondsbury £ 2 million estimated 20/21 construction costs at Almondsbury £ 1 million dropped in reservoir by mistake * * I made that one up but you could argue that having no financial return on such large sums of money over five years amounts to an even greater financial loss So, all total guesswork then. I'm glad you dont do my tax return thats for sure. (the last one did make me smile though)
The big question is can we deduct £18 million because "it wasnt new money" 
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 17:45:43 GMT
That's usually my party piece!  In hindsight, it would have been clearer if I'd written stadium instead of ground. Would be interesting to know what level of rent they pay Nope, it's not your fault, what you wrote was perfectly clear, I just didn't read the post properly. Sorry. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 17:49:58 GMT
Stand by, this should be fun..
Whilist at it perhaps we can obtain a similar breakdown of Lansdowns mistakes (losses) and lack of ambition that led to the new Ashton Gate
Or even go a stage further and get a breakdown of Abramovich's £billions of mistakes and lack of ambition that led to them being European champions
I think Steve Lansdown was guilty of being naive when he lost the chance of building at Ashton Vale. An experienced developer would have fenced off the site before the locals even knew what was going on. Higgs did this at UWE but we know that nothing came next. At least Steve Lansdown had a plan b and although I've only been to the new Ashton Gate for a concert I was very impressed with what I saw. Apparently the hospitality areas are exceptional so he hasn't done too badly. I know Steve and he takes great delight saying that he never spends more than what he earns each year so his billions and his family are safe from the losses that football can bring. As for Abramovich, we all know that Russian money is bent money even the UK government revoked his passport but he has got in through the back door by obtaining Channel Islands citizenship although nobody has ever seen him at his Jersey home. As a complete aside from the main topic under discussion here, the top field adjacent to the Civil Service club on Muller Rd has been fenced off since spring. They said that dog walkers were allowing their animals to toilet on the pitches, but we all know what's coming next, another 300 houses. Amazed that none of the Horfield Rose lot seem to have noticed, yet... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 17:53:54 GMT
Swiss. How is that £30m arrived at please? Roughly speaking. £ 18 million capitalised £ 1 million still owing to Dwane at 30.06.20 £ 3 million estimated trading losses 20/21 £ 3 million the club said would be extra losses in 20/21 due to Covid £ 1 million estimated trading losses first quarter of 21/22 £ 1 million acquisition of land at Almondsbury £ 2 million estimated 20/21 construction costs at Almondsbury £ 1 million dropped in reservoir by mistake * * I made that one up but you could argue that having no financial return on such large sums of money over five years amounts to an even greater financial loss 2 things; 1. I thought that the 'takeover' money had been looked at and was probably nearer £12m? You can start at £18m, but Wael isn't to blame for all of that, there were others involved in decision making up to a point. 2. If I was handed £15m for 5 years and didn't make more than £1m on it I would literally give everything I own, everything, the entire lot, to a charity of your choosing. Send me £15m, let's see how we go. |
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Post by swissgas on Sept 15, 2021 17:55:18 GMT
Swiss. How is that £30m arrived at please? Stand by, this should be fun..
Whilist at it perhaps we can obtain a similar breakdown of Lansdowns mistakes (losses) and lack of ambition that led to the new Ashton Gate
Or even go a stage further and get a breakdown of Abramovich's £billions of mistakes and lack of ambition that led to them being European champions
Credit where credit is due. Wael has not splashed out $ 40 million he has limited it to £ 30 million. "He appears to have big ambitions for the club. But right from the get-go, he made it clear that success will be achieved through “evolution not revolution.” So he won’t be throwing millions of dollars around as some might (somewhat stereotypically) expect a wealthy Middle Eastern owner to do. “It’s not about spending cash to buy Ronaldo or Messi. It doesn’t work. It’s about getting the infrastructure right, it’s about getting the environment correct, making sure all the necessities and ingredients are there for the players to perform better.” Thankfully, he said everyone connected to the club, including its fans, understand this. “They don’t want anyone splashing the cash for short-term success. They know it doesn’t work. It’s about building something sustainable,” he said." |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 17:59:39 GMT
I think Steve Lansdown was guilty of being naive when he lost the chance of building at Ashton Vale. An experienced developer would have fenced off the site before the locals even knew what was going on. Higgs did this at UWE but we know that nothing came next. At least Steve Lansdown had a plan b and although I've only been to the new Ashton Gate for a concert I was very impressed with what I saw. Apparently the hospitality areas are exceptional so he hasn't done too badly. I know Steve and he takes great delight saying that he never spends more than what he earns each year so his billions and his family are safe from the losses that football can bring. As for Abramovich, we all know that Russian money is bent money even the UK government revoked his passport but he has got in through the back door by obtaining Channel Islands citizenship although nobody has ever seen him at his Jersey home. As a complete aside from the main topic under discussion here, the top field adjacent to the Civil Service club on Muller Rd has been fenced off since spring. They said that dog walkers were allowing their animals to toilet on the pitches, but we all know what's coming next, another 300 houses. Amazed that none of the Horfield Rose lot seem to have noticed, yet... Ed Ware was always attracted to that site and he did suggest that it would make a brilliant land swap for BRFC. Who knows. |
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Post by swissgas on Sept 15, 2021 18:20:07 GMT
Roughly speaking. £ 18 million capitalised £ 1 million still owing to Dwane at 30.06.20 £ 3 million estimated trading losses 20/21 £ 3 million the club said would be extra losses in 20/21 due to Covid £ 1 million estimated trading losses first quarter of 21/22 £ 1 million acquisition of land at Almondsbury £ 2 million estimated 20/21 construction costs at Almondsbury £ 1 million dropped in reservoir by mistake * * I made that one up but you could argue that having no financial return on such large sums of money over five years amounts to an even greater financial loss So, all total guesswork then. I'm glad you dont do my tax return thats for sure. (the last one did make me smile though)
The big question is can we deduct £18 million because "it wasnt new money"
Only the construction cost figure is guesswork All the rest is based on the audited accounts, land registry data and club statements. |
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Post by swissgas on Sept 15, 2021 18:31:12 GMT
Roughly speaking. £ 18 million capitalised £ 1 million still owing to Dwane at 30.06.20 £ 3 million estimated trading losses 20/21 £ 3 million the club said would be extra losses in 20/21 due to Covid £ 1 million estimated trading losses first quarter of 21/22 £ 1 million acquisition of land at Almondsbury £ 2 million estimated 20/21 construction costs at Almondsbury £ 1 million dropped in reservoir by mistake * * I made that one up but you could argue that having no financial return on such large sums of money over five years amounts to an even greater financial loss 2 things; 1. I thought that the 'takeover' money had been looked at and was probably nearer £12m? You can start at £18m, but Wael isn't to blame for all of that, there were others involved in decision making up to a point. 2. If I was handed £15m for 5 years and didn't make more than £1m on it I would literally give everything I own, everything, the entire lot, to a charity of your choosing. Send me £15m, let's see how we go. The initial takeover money in 2016 was £ 7.2 million of which £ 2.7 million was used to repay MSP Capital and £ 4.5 million to repay Nick Higgs & Co their loans and bonds. By 30.06.20 the amount owing to Dwane Sports was £ 19 million ( which included the initial £7.2 million) and I calculated that when the £18 million was capitalised Wael would have had to transfer £10.4 million in some shape or form to Hani and Samer after which he would own 90% of Dwane Sports and Samer 10%. So if you want to look at it that way Wael is responsible for Rovers needing about £ 20 million of the £ 30 million which has had to be put in. But if there is any point to this discussion it's to talk about how ways can be found so that Wael doesn't need to keep putting these extraordinary amounts in, that Rovers have a successful football team and that we at least have plans for a stadium including some knowledge of the way in which it will be financed. Being provoked into sarcastically posting quotes from Wael six months after he had taken over the club isn't very satisfying to me. We were all caught up in his infectious enthusiasm and what seemed to be a very sensible business approach. But since then he has wandered badly off course and is showing the same signs of irrationality and irritability which we saw with Nick Higgs once he had painted himself into a corner. But Nick eventually did the right thing so I just hope Wael will do the same and not make his next step getting into bed with Harry Redknapp, Robbie Fowler or another of Barton's mates. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 18:42:25 GMT
2 things; 1. I thought that the 'takeover' money had been looked at and was probably nearer £12m? You can start at £18m, but Wael isn't to blame for all of that, there were others involved in decision making up to a point. 2. If I was handed £15m for 5 years and didn't make more than £1m on it I would literally give everything I own, everything, the entire lot, to a charity of your choosing. Send me £15m, let's see how we go. The initial takeover money in 2016 was £ 7.2 million of which £ 2.7 million was used to repay MSP Capital and £ 4.5 million to repay Nick Higgs & Co their loans and bonds. By 30.06.20 the amount owing to Dwane Sports was £ 19 million ( which included the initial £7.2 million) and I calculated that when the £18 million was capitalised Wael would have had to transfer £10.4 million in some shape or form to Hani and Samer after which he would own 90% of Dwane Sports and Samer 10%. So if you want to look at it that way Wael is responsible for Rovers needing about £ 20 million of the £ 30 million which has had to be put in. But if there is any point to this discussion it's to talk about how ways can be found so that Wael doesn't need to keep putting these extraordinary amounts in, that Rovers have a successful football team and that we at least have plans for a stadium including some knowledge of the way in which it will be financed. Being provoked into sarcastically posting quotes from Wael six months after he had taken over the club isn't very satisfying to me. We were all caught up in his infectious enthusiasm and what seemed to be a very sensible business approach. But since then he has wandered badly off course and is showing the same signs of irrationality and irritability which we saw with Nick Higgs once he had painted himself into a corner. But Nick eventually did the right thing so I just hope Wael will do the same and not make his next step getting into bed with Harry Redknapp, Robbie Fowler or another of Barton's mates. To be honest Swiss, right now I would be happy to forget the 2nd tier and a new stadium in exchange for a business plan that looked as if it gave the club sustainability in L1. Back to this £15m, will PM some acc details shortly, give a nudge in late 2026 for your £16m. |
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womble
Arthur Cartlidge
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Post by womble on Sept 15, 2021 18:45:15 GMT
Swiss. How is that £30m arrived at please? Roughly speaking. £ 18 million capitalised £ 1 million still owing to Dwane at 30.06.20 £ 3 million estimated trading losses 20/21 £ 3 million the club said would be extra losses in 20/21 due to Covid £ 1 million estimated trading losses first quarter of 21/22 £ 1 million acquisition of land at Almondsbury £ 2 million estimated 20/21 construction costs at Almondsbury £ 1 million dropped in reservoir by mistake * * I made that one up but you could argue that having no financial return on such large sums of money over five years amounts to an even greater financial loss Swiss, where did the purchase price of £1m for The Quarters come from? If that is accurate, the previous owner did rather well for 27 acres of relatively poor quality ex-grazing land with few alternative uses. I think your estimate of £2m for the build cost, may be on the conservative side. |
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gasprom
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Post by gasprom on Sept 15, 2021 19:00:15 GMT
Thing is, we can point at evidence of progress here and there over the last 5 years, but there’s real investment going into clubs at the lower end of the pyramid. We can applaud the number of fans we take to Hartlepool, but the top two are currently FGR and Harrogate. With their new stadium and potential promotion, this year could be the last time for a long time we play FGR in the league.
The fact is, progress is only progress if it’s faster than your competitors. If you’re not progressing fast enough you’re effectively going backwards.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 19:08:46 GMT
But there are many reasons for that, and I don’t think the training ground is one of them. I do think so axegas and posted my concerns on here on the day last year that the players moved to the training ground. Disruption is an ugly word and every business tries to avoid it but Rovers chose to actively invite it by failing to make plans for when the Cribbs lease ended and then not making a longer term agreement to use the Coombe Dingle Sports Centre for the whole 20/21 season. Ben Garner made some strange comments at the time of the move about uprooting the players and after he had left, in one of his interviews, he said "something changed in October" which might have referred something else but I think he meant the training ground move and he didn't last long after that. When Paul Tisdale came he said we were "in a pickle" and now Pop Harris has confirmed that he was unhappy with the facilities he was forced to work with. At the start of his tenure Barton talked about Rovers "cutting corners" and recently he has compared our training facilities with other clubs and said it's not ideal to have players eating food out of plastic containers or having to go to Bisham Abbey for a week in June because the place was not ready. In my view the disruption caused to training and morale by the ill thought through move to Almondsbury last October was one of the reasons for the poor performances which led to Rovers being relegated. And the excuses about having no alternatives because of Covid guidelines were just that, excuses ! Well that certainly is from left field.
There we were thinking it was down to strikers who couldnt score goals, defenders who couldnt defend and kept falling over, midfielders who couldnt tackle, a captain who went missing, a mixture of different tactics confusing the players, a Head of Recruitment who recruited a load of rubbish.......but all along it was really down to that nasty new training ground.
If only we'd twigged.
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Post by swissgas on Sept 15, 2021 19:36:01 GMT
Roughly speaking. £ 18 million capitalised £ 1 million still owing to Dwane at 30.06.20 £ 3 million estimated trading losses 20/21 £ 3 million the club said would be extra losses in 20/21 due to Covid £ 1 million estimated trading losses first quarter of 21/22 £ 1 million acquisition of land at Almondsbury £ 2 million estimated 20/21 construction costs at Almondsbury £ 1 million dropped in reservoir by mistake * * I made that one up but you could argue that having no financial return on such large sums of money over five years amounts to an even greater financial loss Swiss, where did the purchase price of £1m for The Quarters come from? If that is accurate, the previous owner did rather well for 27 acres of relatively poor quality ex-grazing land with few alternative uses. I think your estimate of £2m for the build cost, may be on the conservative side. The land registry states the purchase price was £ 1, 183,119 You will have more knowledge than me on construction costs but perhaps you can comment on something that happened at the start of the project but which seemed to fade away very quickly as if it didn't matter. We were told that when work began on preparing the bases for the pitches some geological feature had caused a re-think and a lot of extra work had to be done to change the levels. I've not been involved with a lot of groundwork but from the little I know this sort of thing can be a major headache, eat up contingencies and even send a project over budget before it has started. But when this happened at Almondsbury there didn't seem to be any concerns at all in fact the reaction from fans, media and the club was "oh well, not to worry, we'll just have to get on with it". Do you know anything about that problem and how much it may have cost to rectify ? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 19:41:40 GMT
Roughly speaking. £ 18 million capitalised £ 1 million still owing to Dwane at 30.06.20 £ 3 million estimated trading losses 20/21 £ 3 million the club said would be extra losses in 20/21 due to Covid £ 1 million estimated trading losses first quarter of 21/22 £ 1 million acquisition of land at Almondsbury £ 2 million estimated 20/21 construction costs at Almondsbury £ 1 million dropped in reservoir by mistake * * I made that one up but you could argue that having no financial return on such large sums of money over five years amounts to an even greater financial loss Swiss, where did the purchase price of £1m for The Quarters come from? If that is accurate, the previous owner did rather well for 27 acres of relatively poor quality ex-grazing land with few alternative uses. I think your estimate of £2m for the build cost, may be on the conservative side. I had been told by a commercial land agent that the figure was in the region of £1.1m. |
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Post by swissgas on Sept 15, 2021 19:47:37 GMT
I do think so axegas and posted my concerns on here on the day last year that the players moved to the training ground. Disruption is an ugly word and every business tries to avoid it but Rovers chose to actively invite it by failing to make plans for when the Cribbs lease ended and then not making a longer term agreement to use the Coombe Dingle Sports Centre for the whole 20/21 season. Ben Garner made some strange comments at the time of the move about uprooting the players and after he had left, in one of his interviews, he said "something changed in October" which might have referred something else but I think he meant the training ground move and he didn't last long after that. When Paul Tisdale came he said we were "in a pickle" and now Pop Harris has confirmed that he was unhappy with the facilities he was forced to work with. At the start of his tenure Barton talked about Rovers "cutting corners" and recently he has compared our training facilities with other clubs and said it's not ideal to have players eating food out of plastic containers or having to go to Bisham Abbey for a week in June because the place was not ready. In my view the disruption caused to training and morale by the ill thought through move to Almondsbury last October was one of the reasons for the poor performances which led to Rovers being relegated. And the excuses about having no alternatives because of Covid guidelines were just that, excuses ! Well that certainly is from left field.
There we were thinking it was down to strikers who couldnt score goals, defenders who couldnt defend and kept falling over, midfielders who couldnt tackle, a captain who went missing, a mixture of different tactics confusing the players, a Head of Recruitment who recruited a load of rubbish.......but all along it was really down to that nasty new training ground.
If only we'd twigged.
Blinkered thinking is one of the reasons we are where we are. |
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Post by richmace on Sept 15, 2021 22:10:03 GMT
From reading this thread, it would seem that the general opinion of the training ground is:
1. It caused disruption during the relegation season which may or may not have contributed to relegation (sounds like an excuse to me seeing as Rovers have never had decent training facilites).
2. It is only now starting to become an positive asset to the playing side of the football club.
3. Long term it is a good thing.
4. The facilities that are there (pitches, gym, etc) are good quality.
5. The facility is not yet complete.
I am prepared to give the Training Ground the benefit of the doubt and judge it a few years after the project is complete. Having a training facility has to be good for the long term future of the club. If only to prevent us being kicked out and having to move again.
I agree 100% that the stadium decision has to be made in order to allow us to plan. It has been hanging over this football club for far too long.
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womble
Arthur Cartlidge
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Post by womble on Sept 15, 2021 22:10:40 GMT
Swiss, where did the purchase price of £1m for The Quarters come from? If that is accurate, the previous owner did rather well for 27 acres of relatively poor quality ex-grazing land with few alternative uses. I think your estimate of £2m for the build cost, may be on the conservative side. The land registry states the purchase price was £ 1, 183,119 You will have more knowledge than me on construction costs but perhaps you can comment on something that happened at the start of the project but which seemed to fade away very quickly as if it didn't matter. We were told that when work began on preparing the bases for the pitches some geological feature had caused a re-think and a lot of extra work had to be done to change the levels. I've not been involved with a lot of groundwork but from the little I know this sort of thing can be a major headache, eat up contingencies and even send a project over budget before it has started. But when this happened at Almondsbury there didn't seem to be any concerns at all in fact the reaction from fans, media and the club was "oh well, not to worry, we'll just have to get on with it". Do you know anything about that problem and how much it may have cost to rectify ? When the topsoil was removed at the beginning of the process, a lot of rock was found relatively near the surface. Rather than remove it (which would be very expensive over an area of 2.5 pitches), they decided to raise the level of the pitches rather than excavate. So the gravel bed and sand/topsoil layers are higher than originally planned. The height difference is clear when you look at any picture taken looking down the entrance driveway. I assume that didn’t add much to the cost, but Stuart1974 from the other forum (I think he posts on here as Stuu) is likely to have a much better idea than me, as I think he is associated with the construction industry. At one point during the building of the pitches, a worker told a gaschat forum member that the cost of the fibre sand pitches was £1.2m. That sounds about right given the internet gives a figure of around £0.5m for one pitch. As there is also a reservoir, a barn conversion and a clubhouse to build and fit out in addition, I can quite easily imagine the spend so far exceeding £2m. |
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In hindsight, it would have been clearer if I'd written stadium instead of ground. Would be interesting to know what level of rent they pay 