GasMacc1
Les Bradd
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,423
|
Post by GasMacc1 on Feb 2, 2018 8:17:59 GMT
It's harder to change a winning side that's playing well, I surmise but when we were in the Conference and League 2 I don't think we made as many changes. Now, we are a middling team and sometimes won't be able to dictate the way games are played. We change our team to fit the opposition as opposed to keeping a team to force our style on the opposition. A perfect example of this was playing Sinclair as a number 10 against Swindon last season. It was the only time he played their last year but Clarke knew Swindon played out from the back. I don't think we kept the same side for consecutive games in the conference or leaguess 2 because this conversation kept coming up then or come to think of it the last 8 games of our relegation season We didn’t make quite as many changes in the Conference or in League 2, but the average changes per match were still up there at the high end of the spectrum (see table). Rovers Changes By Season | League 1 2017-18 | League 1 2016-17 | League 2 2015-16 | Conference 2014-15 | Matches Played | 29 | 46 | 46 | 46 | Total Changes | 76 | 129 | 92 | 93 | Changes per match | 2.62 | 2.87 | 2.04 | 2.07 | Unchanged Starting Line-ups | 3 | 4 | 8 | 5 | Ever-present Players | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | Starters in More than 39 matches | 2 | 3 | 2 | 5 | Different Starters | 21 | 31 | 24 | 28 |
|
|
GasMacc1
Les Bradd
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,423
|
Post by GasMacc1 on Feb 2, 2018 8:24:42 GMT
Great research GasMacc1. Your stuff always starts a good thread. My gut feeling is DC tinkers too much but you can’t really argue when you see what he has achieved for us. Being a more vintage gashead I always go back to our 73/74 season when Don M really knew his best team and stuck with it most of the time. Without checking I think 7/8 players would have played 38 games or more and I reckon it might even have been higher. But it’s a different age now with more competitions and games to play so it’s hard to compare different ages. The comparisons you use are good ones but as others have said the better teams have the better players and perhaps Parkinson and Wilder last season did know their best team. After 4 great years I’m still not sure if DC knows what his best team is or if he ever did know what it was. Did you look at how many changes were made after 23 games ( half way through the season) compared to the second half? I think that would be interesting because, and again it’s only a gut feeling, I bet there’s fewer changes from January onwards. DC has a pattern of better second halves of the season when he’s almost decided what team he wants to play. I know why he changes so often, because of the way he sees it. Listening to him after the Doncaster match it was strange to see that he was very proud of the fact that he played four different systems in the same match and that he reacted well to changing circumstances. He prides himself on the adaptability of his players. It all goes with what he says about his players over achieving, so he has to counter better players and perhaps better teams by being a better tactician. So I guess all those things make me unsurprised that he tinkers so much. UTG! ps. Just checked and 1973/74: 4 ever presents, 4 other players 42 games+ and 3 players in the 30s. Thanks Wareham! Even allowing for Chewbacca rightly pointing out that only 1 sub was permitted in the seventies, consistency of results ran alongside consistency of team selection in that promotion season. I understand your reasoning, expecting fewer changes in the second half of the season, but it didn’t actually pan out that clearly.
Season 2016-17 in Halves:
| Changes | Changes per Game | Unchanged Line-ups | First Half of Season | 65 | 2.9 | 3 | Second Half of Season | 64 | 2.8 | 1 |
However, if you divide the season into thirds, then we did see a slight dip in the rate of change. Maybe you could call the first third “Experimentation”, the second third “Transfer Window” and the final third “Strong and Stable”…unless you’re in a relegation fight, in which case it becomes “Desperation”. Season 2016-17 in Thirds:
| Changes | Changes per Game
| Unchanged Line-ups
| First Third of Season | 45 | 3 | 2 | Middle Third of Season | 45 | 3 | 1 | Final Third of Season | 39 | 2.6 | 1 |
|
|
GasMacc1
Les Bradd
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,423
|
Post by GasMacc1 on Feb 2, 2018 8:26:12 GMT
Very true and a good point chewy but my original point stands about the starting 11 stands, DM knew and chose his best team. Not sure if DC knows or even has a best 11. It depends on many things. UTG! Knowing your best 11 is from a bygone era, knowing the strengths of your squad and how to utilise them in different scenarios is what wins football matches now. No on rocks up with 4-4-2 every week now, you chop and change formations, personnel and tactics for each game. Scouting is through the roof now compared to the past, players know everything about the opposition before the match so you simply can't stick all the time. But the stats show that, for some clubs, playing a consistent starting eleven is alive and well in League One, even among the clubs with the most resources. That’s the main message of the OP. I agree with your “Now, we are a middling team and sometimes won't be able to dictate the way games are played. We change our team to fit the opposition as opposed to keeping a team to force our style on the opposition” and the example of Sinclair v Swindon. DC assesses the different scenarios and consequently adjusts his planning. We’ve heard many times from Rovers management and players that they are comfortable playing a number of different formations and styles, either from kick-off or adjusting the approach mid-match. As WarehamGas mentioned, according to DC, four times at Doncaster!. Differentiating our approach from those with the top-6 budgets - rather than using the same approach and falling short- might be viewed as a stroke of genius on the part of DC; again, as WarehamGas said, perhaps it’s one of the explanations for what DC calls “our over-achievement”
|
|
GasMacc1
Les Bradd
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,423
|
Post by GasMacc1 on Feb 2, 2018 8:27:01 GMT
Can’t work out how to post a picture on here, but link below takes you to further stats relating to the OPs. experimental361.com/2017/10/05/squad-usage-league-1-5-oct-2017/“Bury have already used 30 different players this season, starting 29 of them (which is five more than any other team), so it’s unsurprising that they’re one of two sides in the division (the other being Bristol Rovers) who have no ever-present players. While Rovers have been more restrained in the number of players they’ve called upon, they’ve been rotating the squad heavily. Darrell Clarke has been making an average of 3.7 changes to the starting line-up every match, which is the highest by some distance.” Edit. Have just realised that the link/text above relates to data up to October 17. There is a later update on their Facebook page which shows rovers as 2.8 changes per game now (up to 18 jan) the second highest in the league behind Bury. . We have now named unchanged sides 3 times. Thanks for the link. The author of experimental361 is even more of a Dwane Dibley than I am!
|
|
warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,442
|
Post by warehamgas on Feb 2, 2018 12:13:08 GMT
When you start to look at the detailed comparisons like you have done GasMacc1 then you do start to understand how DC, or any other manager, uses his team and how he manages in that respect. Having seen DC in three different leagues with us it’s clear that he is a very tactical manager who is comfortable to play different systems. That we have a manager who is able to do that with resources which don’t meet what the better teams have is a great advantage for us. I don’t see as many games as many on here do but I would say sometimes it doesn’t go as planned and sometimes it works a dream. Last season in opening match at Scunthorpe we were comfortable leading 1-0, they equalised with a great goal but one likely to be scored once out of every 6/7 attempts. At 1-1 DC made a sub choice trying to force a win and we lost 1-3! As others have mentioned, how DC used SS against Swindon last year meant that their midfield never touched it and we outplayed them even if it was only 1-0 (I think). Perhaps that’s why he’s fairly picky in the transfer market, players have to be intelligent enough to be able to adapt and be comfortable in different systems. UTG!
|
|
|
Post by Gregory Stevens on Feb 3, 2018 8:10:05 GMT
Another key point with rotating is morale. No player wants to feel like they are a “reserve”
I remember Dan L early this year was terrible. He then had 4 games when he ran the show on his side of the pitch.
Form is a real thing.
|
|
irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
|
Post by irishrover on Feb 6, 2018 15:19:14 GMT
Knowing your best 11 is from a bygone era, knowing the strengths of your squad and how to utilise them in different scenarios is what wins football matches now. No on rocks up with 4-4-2 every week now, you chop and change formations, personnel and tactics for each game. Scouting is through the roof now compared to the past, players know everything about the opposition before the match so you simply can't stick all the time. If you believe that scouts nowadays provide information on opposition that those in years gone by then you are sadly very mistaken. It was always part and parcel of a scouts job to watch future opponents and identify strengths and weaknesses. As for the old chestnut that keeps coming up about football is off a different era that's is absolute rubbish.managers have always experimented with different formations they just didn't yell it from the roof tops.there is nothing new in football just variations on a theme I don't think anyone's really saying that. But it's hard to argue that the parameters of the game and the possibilities of what you can do with your squad and tactics in-game haven't changed considerably. Just simply the introduction of a wider range of substitutes and bigger squads has clearly had an impact. It has made it more of a whole squad game rather than a 'Best XI' approach surely? And with that there is clearly more capacity to shift strategy within games than their used to be. I'd argue that's different even from when I started watching 25 years ago. I'm not sure the tactics themselves are necessarily all that different but the capacity to be flexible, change things up as you go and the range of options available to Managers on match day has surely increased considerably over the years.
|
|
warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,442
|
Post by warehamgas on Feb 6, 2018 19:27:34 GMT
Agree with that irish and your point about it being a more of a whole squad game is true. People seemed to think I was criticising DC when I said I didn’t think he knows his best 11, I wasn’t because its not a criticism. The game has changed and the ability of managers to field 3 subs has made a big difference not least the ability to change formations and strategies during a game, which is something DC does a lot. I suspect that we have many players who are quite equal in ability and that Gregory Stevens is right in saying DC doesn’t want to have “reserve” players who may feel that they are not first choice and that doing it his way keeps the squad happy. Good man management! I think DC wants his defence to defend with full backs supporting the attack and over-lapping. He wants his CHs to defend, bring the ball out when it’s safe to do so and pass it on and launch it when it’s not safe. Thinking that is the case in every match he plays I’m still not sure if DC knows which 4 or 3 or even 5 players would be his preferred choice in defence. No criticism just an opinion! In midfield I can understand him playing different options depending on his formation. This season lacking the wide players and seeming to play 433 more than 442 than in the past means he has been able to play OC, LS, CL, SS more than he might have done. In attack because TN hasn’t been scoring it has enabled (made?) DC to change the way he wants to attack. Had TN scored prolifically he would have made the decision for him but he hasn’t so DC has been forced to look at different ways. I’m sure some would say the formations haven’t helped him settle into a position. Chicken and egg situation I guess, score and TN makes the decision for DC, fail to score DC needs to look at others and change the formation making it harder for TN to get into a rhythm. UTG!
|
|
bs5
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 456
|
Post by bs5 on Feb 6, 2018 22:08:41 GMT
How many changes were made in 88/89 playoffs and then our promotion under Francis 89/90? Not many I reckon , skeleton squad
|
|
GasMacc1
Les Bradd
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,423
|
Post by GasMacc1 on Feb 6, 2018 23:57:10 GMT
How many changes were made in 88/89 playoffs and then our promotion under Francis 89/90? Not many I reckon , skeleton squad Couldn't resist a challenge. Data from "Bristol Rovers: The Official Definitive History". Rovers Changes | Third Tier 1988-89 | Third Tier 1989-90 | Matches Played | 46 | 46 | Total Changes | 24 | 24 | Changes Per Match | 0.53 | 0.53 | Unchanged Starting Line-ups | 25 | 28
| Ever-present Players | 2 | 4 | Starters in More Than 39 Matches | 7 | 8 | Different Starters | 19 | 19 |
The Ever-presents were Nigel Martyn and Geoff Twentyman in 1988-89. Then Twentyman again, Boris Mehew, Vaughan Jones and Ollie in 1989-90.
|
|
|
Post by Gregory Stevens on Feb 7, 2018 8:07:45 GMT
I don't think we kept the same side for consecutive games in the conference or leaguess 2 because this conversation kept coming up then or come to think of it the last 8 games of our relegation season We didn’t make quite as many changes in the Conference or in League 2, but the average changes per match were still up there at the high end of the spectrum (see table). Rovers Changes By Season | League 1 2017-18 | League 1 2016-17 | League 2 2015-16 | Conference 2014-15 | Matches Played | 29 | 46 | 46 | 46 | Total Changes | 76 | 129 | 92 | 93 | Changes per match | 2.62 | 2.87 | 2.04 | 2.07 | Unchanged Starting Line-ups | 3 | 4 | 8 | 5 | Ever-present Players | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | Starters in More than 39 matches | 2 | 3 | 2 | 5 | Different Starters | 21 | 31 | 24 | 28 |
“The spectrum” is a phrase I thought of when I read the OP.
|
|
irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
|
Post by irishrover on Feb 7, 2018 14:43:09 GMT
The other thing that matters here though is comparison.
While we know the figures related to Rovers we don't know whether this represents above average or below average numbers of changes for the division. My feeling is that the whole game has become increasingly based on this - although I suspect even in that context DC maybe something of an outlier.
|
|
Igitur
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 2,294
|
Post by Igitur on Feb 7, 2018 15:16:03 GMT
If DC sets up his team according to the opposition they will know this by now and so change their line ups subtly according to how they think DC will select his team. DC will not know what line up their team has until 1 hr before kick off.
|
|
|
Post by laughinggas on Feb 7, 2018 15:53:49 GMT
If DC sets up his team according to the opposition they will know this by now and so change their line ups subtly according to how they think DC will select his team. DC will not know what line up their team has until 1 hr before kick off. Bluff and double bluff
|
|
GasMacc1
Les Bradd
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,423
|
Post by GasMacc1 on Feb 22, 2018 17:11:42 GMT
When I saw this news today (having to name at least 10 outfield players from the previous game in matches from the end of March; see link), I thought it might cramp Darrell's style. Football League Define "Full Strength Team"On closer inspection, "Team Sheet" includes the bench, so it shouldn't be a problem. "Alongside voting in the changes to the transfer window, Clubs also adopted new policy guidance in regard to what constitutes a ‘full strength’ team.Following the widespread attention the matter of team selection received in the closing weeks of the 2016/17 season, it was agreed the EFL would work up a policy to determine what constitutes a ‘full strength’ team to remove any ambiguity and further potential reputational damage to the EFL and its competitions.Today, Clubs supported the implementation of guidance on the following basis: ‘for any League match played on or after the 4th Thursday in March (including Season 2017/18), any team sheet for a League game should include at least 10 outfield players who featured on the team sheet for the League match before.’In the event any Club breaches the threshold, they may be charged with a breach of Regulation 24 and the matter will be referred to a Disciplinary Commission".
|
|