irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 24, 2017 11:42:35 GMT
This England team should always be happy to be around 200 with 5/6 wickets in hand because it is that lower middle order that is our main strength and you want to set them up to put us in a winning position. Survive the early New Ball blast and they have every chance of getting a 400+ score here. With Stokes in the side yes. With Moeen at 6, Woakes at 8 and then the bowlers I am not so sure. Positions 6-11, I think, 7 and Bairstow is the only position we have a clear edge. If you'd have said Stoneman, Vince and Malan will all get 50s and 9-11 score 15 between them I think most would have assumed we'd get 400 plus. Unfortunately our shoe-in's haven't really contributed and I think the balance is marginally with Australia at present. Along with the batting, the other question going into the series was whether we could take wickets with the old ball. The signs so far aren't too promising in that regard.# I think that was a golden missed opportunity to get 400+. I still think even without Stokes that is the area in which we should have a big advantage over Australia - the ability to reliably score big runs 6-8 in the order. The truth is they just batted poorly - we weren't done by good bowling - which is what is really disappointing. Moeen and Malan looked entirely comfortable and the Aussies were beginning to look a bit ragged and I was getting quite confidence that we'd get a good score. They'd done the hard work and then threw it away and we folded meekly having battled so hard the day before. It shows that you have to keep fighting in these situations - it doesn't suddenly become easy. Hard to be critical of Malan but it was a poor shot to get out that started the cascade, Moeen if you're being generous got a decent ball but Bairstow and Woakes dismissals were just dire and they looked like players who in that horrible modern batting parlance 'didn't have a plan'.
What it means is that whatever happens tomorrow (and I still think we could make this a close 1st innings score if we nip a couple out early on - especially as we're not miles away from a new ball) our batsmen are going to be under big pressure in the 2nd innings - and history shows that when England teams in Australia traditionally crumble. You need a decent first innings lead and we gave ourselves every chance of getting one on Day 1 and threw it away on Day 2. Australia clear favourites now although it's been a slow game so far by modern standards and the draw may start to come into play.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 24, 2017 11:50:40 GMT
I put the tv off when we were still only 4 down so it’s disappointing to only get 300. I thought that the first hour and surviving that which we did would be a good basis for 350+. Very poor not to get there. Tomorrow again will be an important first hour, get a couple of wickets the match changes, if the Aussies see it out then we could be in trouble. Difficult to draw many conclusions after two days but Bayliss was correct we need to turn 50, 69 or 70 into a big score for someone and failure to do that cost us. Also it looks as if the sides aren’t too different and that each session can be won with the right application and determination.
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Captain Jayho
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Post by Captain Jayho on Nov 25, 2017 6:03:02 GMT
Our inability to remove the tail end of an opposition innings never fails to amaze me!
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 25, 2017 9:30:47 GMT
Yes but perhaps their tails better than our tail. Went to bed when they were 7 down so missed the rest. More worryingly Cook failed again and we lost two top order batsmen. Need to stop there now and use up some minutes. Long way to go!
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Captain Jayho
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Post by Captain Jayho on Nov 26, 2017 6:34:46 GMT
Well yes, clearly it is better. But regardless of that we shouldn't be letting Pat Cummins get 40+ or letting Nathan Lyon support Smith to pile runs on. Our bowling attack really lacks depth and that has been shown up in both innings.
In fairness this has been a lot closer than I thought it would be at the outset so credit to the players for that. But it is very difficult to see how we can win a game when we have so many gaping holes in both our batting and our bowling line-ups. The Aussies aren't great by any stretch but they have a solid bowling attack with good depth and when they bat they can dig themselves out of a hole instead of simply throwing the bat and gifting wickets away throughout their innings.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 26, 2017 12:49:43 GMT
Frustrating but ultimately the game was settled by the one batsmen who was able to go on and get a good score. England have battled well here but we lost it on the 2nd morning where we failed to capitalise on a good start and get up to 400+ and a chance at a decent 1st innings. From then on we were behind in the game and even though our bowlers did pretty well in pulling it back the pressure on our batting lineup was just too high. Only Moeen really looked like taking the game to the Aussies and his dismissal was crucial to weather we gave them a score to chase or not - personally I'm in the 'benefit of the doubt' camp as I felt 2 of the camera angles suggested there was something behind the line. But, ho-hum he was typically phlegmatic about it and I can't say the Aussies didn't deserve it (superb bit of work by Paine there as well). The worrying thing for me is how effective Lyon has been - for all the talk about their pacemen that may well be a more crucial difference over these games. I feel that on the whole England have played pretty well here, but missed a couple of opportunities and clearly had the stuffing knocked out of us in that 2nd innings. We'll need to show we can bounce back quickly from this because in that deadly phrase there really are quite a lot of 'positives' to draw from this game.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 26, 2017 22:18:45 GMT
Agree irish. It was the lack of a big score and the collapse on day 2 that has caused the inevitable loss. Like you I am drawing some positives from what I’ve seen and think Steve Smiths innings is the big difference. Lyon has done well and deserved his success but where Smith and Warner, the senior players have filled in for their teams failure from some of the other players our batsmen lacked the big score although several looked as if they might go on to get one but didn’t. So overall not too different but a defeat by 9/10 wickets looks bad. Our coaches will need to do some building up now and I will look in tonight and listen to Boycott and Vaughan tell me where England have gone wrong. Strange but their analysis has been somewhat faulty imo. Boycotts mantra of telling everyone that England need to occupy the crease, although probably correct, is only correct if the run rate is good. The slow run rate in the first innings allowed Lyon to dominate and let Steve S use his fast bowlers sparingly. The slow run rate meant that the batsmen made some poor decisions later on in an attempt to force it. Unfortunately if our top order and even middle order are slow scoring we can’t expect our 8,9,10,11 to do it. Vaughan thought if we set Australia 190 odd it would be interesting. Mmm not too sure if it’s been too interesting! Anyway on to Adelaide.
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Captain Jayho
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Post by Captain Jayho on Nov 27, 2017 1:04:06 GMT
Vaughan thought if we set Australia 190 odd it would be interesting. Mmm not too sure if it’s been too interesting! Anyway on to Adelaide. It would have been a lot more interesting if our non-frontline bowlers were better quality. Broad and Anderson were unlucky not to make a breakthrough with the new ball but that obviously happens sometimes when things go against you. As soon as they came out of the attack the game was effectively over. The Australian batsmen simply milk the rest of our bowling attack with such ease. Moeen can be excused if he had a finger injury but Woakes and Ball were both pretty putrid, couldn't tie an end down and let the game slip away. Ho hum, on to the next test. What a hideous Summer this is going to be living over here. I've got tickets for day 2 at the G which I am seriously struggling to look forward to right now!
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 27, 2017 12:00:52 GMT
The next Test is obviously key - everyone is saying that under lights should suit our bowling attack more than the Aussies so we need a big performance from our bowlers there to get us back in the series. If not this will be a long few week I fear.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 27, 2017 15:41:02 GMT
Yes Jayho, having been in Sydney for 6 weeks recently I feel sorry for you, might have to develop a thick skin. But being a Rovers fan I guess you have one! All the best. 😉
Agree Irish, I think Adelaide is one of our better grounds isn’t it? Perhaps it’s worth bringing Overton in for Ball. But as a Somerset member I’m probably biased. Only two main problems to solve: 1. How can our batsmen turn scores over 50 into 100s. 2. How to get Steve Smith out. Solve those and it will still be very close.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 27, 2017 20:56:03 GMT
Yes Jayho, having been in Sydney for 6 weeks recently I feel sorry for you, might have to develop a thick skin. But being a Rovers fan I guess you have one! All the best. 😉 Agree Irish, I think Adelaide is one of our better grounds isn’t it? Perhaps it’s worth bringing Overton in for Ball. But as a Somerset member I’m probably biased. Only two main problems to solve: 1. How can our batsmen turn scores over 50 into 100s. 2. How to get Steve Smith out. Solve those and it will still be very close. Might as well give Overton a try - I've never particularly rated Ball to be honest. He's old fashioned, broad shouldered, hit the pitch seamer but I don't think he's ultimately quick enough or accurate enough to be consistently effective at this level on pitches that offer little help. I felt something about Bresnan and I don't think Ball is as good as Bresnan.
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Captain Jayho
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Post by Captain Jayho on Nov 28, 2017 9:42:25 GMT
I never really rated Bresnan until that 2010 series. He was huge for us in that series though. I still remember his 4 for 50 in the second innings on the 3rd day of the Melbourne test - I was sat in the stands with my dad. What a day that was. We made the back end of our 500+ with Prior smashing it all over the place and then Bresnan cleaned up Watson, Ponting and Hussey late in the day to set us up for a huge victory. happy days. And that was when we could get Steve Smith out as well!
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Captain Jayho
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Post by Captain Jayho on Dec 2, 2017 6:56:56 GMT
Looking ugly. Put them in to bat in a moist atmosphere then Bowl short at them until the shine goes off the ball. Great work lads. See what you've done there. Yet to take a genuine wicket in the last 75 overs we've bowled. Rugby league yet to come tonight. Someone wake me when the nightmare's over!
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Captain Jayho
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Post by Captain Jayho on Dec 3, 2017 7:43:33 GMT
Bit unlucky not to pick up more wickets today to be honest. Anderson particularly unlucky. A lot of brainless bowling again outside of that though. Good on Overton for getting Steve Smith out yesterday and toiling away today - he is the epitome of mediocre though and seems to lack any kind of pace. Our bowling stocks really look like they are at an all time low, worrying for the future when Jimmy retires and Broad is past his best.
England will lose this by an innings now. Money on a sub-200 score in the first innings, maybe 150?
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Dec 3, 2017 19:51:38 GMT
Doesn’t look good. The rain coming in the last hour helped out but it’s a big day for Alistair Cook, mess up again and the writing will be on the wall for him. It he scores a big score as does Root then we could survive this match and go to the Wacca only one down. The weather forecast is meant to be poor isn’t it so that may help! Bit harsh on Overton, thought he did ok for his first test on the biggest stage. Bowled the most overs, got the most wickets and at an economic rate, 3 per over. Wouldn’t want to make any excuses but with Wood, Finn and Roland-Jones all out with injury we have been badly hit and was the reason Overton got his chance in the first place. At the moment their batsmen from 7-11 are better than our 7-11 batsmen. Theirs make 150 ours make 30.
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Dec 4, 2017 10:38:50 GMT
It's going to be 5-0 again isn't it? Even if we bowl them out for 100 in this innings we aren't going to score 350 in the 4th innings.
We were competitive throughout the first 3 days at the Gabba but we've been third in a two horse race subsequently. If we'd managed to get 400 in our first innings of the first test, or had we managed to run through their tale and gained a 50+ first innings lead then perhaps we'd have gained some momentum and confidence and from then, who knows.
Despite some very obvious flaws in their batting line up, our bowling attack is too mundane and samey to trouble their batting line up. You have to have a bit of variety. Anderson, Broad and Woakes could all do well in Australia if they had a World Class 90mph+ bowler, leg spinner or even a left armer in the attack too. Plenty of Australian bowlers who operate in the 80 - 85mph bracket have done well in Australia over the years. The likes of McGrath, Clark, Harris and Hazzlewood aren't un-English in their approach, but they all a quality spinner and a genuine fast bowler or two to compliment them.
The other big difference is that they played in sides who's batsmen had the upper hand. I bet our bowlers would look better if we were scoring 500+. With the exception of Swann, our bowling attack in 2010/11 was pretty similar to this one but our batsmen had good records and were in form and as a result we were able to build scoreboard pressure. Even with the best bowlers in the World in your side you need to be able to score 450 or more in the first innings in Australia and I just cannot see us doing that.
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Captain Jayho
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Post by Captain Jayho on Dec 4, 2017 11:03:28 GMT
Maybe a little harsh on Overton but in reality he predominantly bowls mid-pace pies which simply isn't going to be good enough at this level going forward. Definitely an upgrade on Jake Ball though and I take your point that we have injuries to other players. Obviously Stokes would have been a very useful first change in an ideal world. In retrospect Woakes is probably more culpable in the bowling department given his test experience and current poor form with the ball. Woakes and Overton did bat well today though saving us from the dreaded sub-200 score.
It's been fascinating listening to Michael Clarke (amongst others) in the commentary box. I never liked him as a player but I do think he is a great tactician as a captain and he makes very perceptive comments regarding bowling plans and setting fields. As well as our wayward bowling (inability to pitch up consistently and make the batsmen play the ball when conditions favour bowling for example) the commentary team have certainly been getting into Joe Root's captaincy as well (field setting, bowling changes, reviews etc etc). I feel a bit sorry for Joe Root though as he's been utterly thrown in at the deep end and I do often wonder if we should just let our best batsmen bat rather than shoulder the burden of captaincy!
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Dec 5, 2017 11:44:15 GMT
Well we fought back today and, remarkably, we have given ourselves a sniff though I still maintain that we won't chase 360. Much like England, Australia have some huge holes in their side. Their bowling attack is terrific and they have two World Class batsmen. Other than that, much like England, you could pick the remaining five out of a hat and it would make bugger all difference. To be on the cusp of losing the Ashes 9 days in to the series is therefore, very frustrating.
Taking 4 wickets last night was lovely but it was this morning that was really encouraging. To take 6 wickets with an older ball in the best batting conditions of the day shows that we do have the bowling to challenge the Aussies (or their batting is substandard enough to be challenged by our bowling!)
I think it is becoming increasing clear that if we could score 400+ consistently, we would win the series and yet I still think we will lose the series 5-0 unless a couple of their bowlers to get injured.
Final point. I know Malan and Stoneman haven't scored hundreds of runs but I think there is something to work with there. They have both got through difficult spells and whilst I do think either of them will necessarily set the World on fire, I do think they have character and are the kind of players who will stand up and be counted when the teams backs are to the wall. Vince on the other hand probably has more natural ability than the other two combined but is too flashy to ever make a reliable test batsman in my opinion.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Dec 5, 2017 11:51:00 GMT
Well this has completely turned around inside a day and a half! What an extraordinary turn of events. I was definitely in the 'here we go again 5-0' crowd (which, to be clear, could very much still happen). I cannot understand why England Captain's are not locked in a room for a day before Ashes series in Australia with only a list of stats from games in which the away team has chosen to bowl first in Australia - that really was madness by England. However, that was then compounded by Smith evening things up with his own moment of madness by allowing England pretty much their only possibly route back into the match by not enforcing the follow-on. Completely baffling decision and surely just based on Australia bloody-mindedness that 'you never enforce the follow-on'. It is interesting under lights - throws a spanner in the works. Aussies should have looked to their own history and treated the floodlit period as a modern version of an old fashioned Australian 'sticky dog'. Bradman always argued that a sticky wicket in Australia was far worse to bat on than one in England (uncovered era) because the combination of rain and a churned up pitch then exposed to a hot Australian sun produced a more uneven surface - that dynamic produced some very strange declarations back in the day.
However, it hasn't half livened up a Test Match that was only going one way. In many ways England's bowling on the morning of Day 4 was more impressive than their exploiting of the conditions the night before. I actually thought we were a bit unlucky not to get them out for a target of 320 which would have really put it in the balance-those 40 more may well be the difference here. As it is we have battled like crazy and are definitely right in this. If you think about it as 3 partnerships of 60 then it seems very doable and the New Ball comes at a nice time too. In reality you can't help thinking it's probably all on Root. They are clearly favourties but Malan and Root very nearly got us to the tipping point where the pressure flipped over onto the Aussies before Cummins removed Malan with a beauty. If we can get to that point again but with a lower target it could get very interesting (I think promoting Woakes rather than sending in Moeen, or Anderson as canon fodder, was a terrific decision by England and I hope it pays dividends in Session 1 tomorrow) - Steve Smith will be the skipper whose struggling to sleep tonight; no doubt about that. The Ashes have suddenly sprung to life here - I thought that final session was the best couple of hours of Test Cricket I've seen in years. Really high quality stuff from both sides played in a high stakes environment.
First time I have really properly sat down and watched a day/night Test in this way. I have to say my feelings are quite positive - I like the way it has the potential to even up the balance between bat and ball and change the dynamic of a game in that way. I'm not sure it's as artificial in that sense as some claim either - as I pointed out above, wet/uncovered wickets did something similar. I'm not sure we should have something against the idea of playing conditions changing - that's supposed to be part of the game to a degree.
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Peter Parker
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Post by Peter Parker on Dec 5, 2017 17:01:18 GMT
Well this has completely turned around inside a day and a half! What an extraordinary turn of events. I was definitely in the 'here we go again 5-0' crowd (which, to be clear, could very much still happen). I cannot understand why England Captain's are not locked in a room for a day before Ashes series in Australia with only a list of stats from games in which the away team has chosen to bowl first in Australia - that really was madness by England. However, that was then compounded by Smith evening things up with his own moment of madness by allowing England pretty much their only possibly route back into the match by not enforcing the follow-on. Completely baffling decision and surely just based on Australia bloody-mindedness that 'you never enforce the follow-on'. It is interesting under lights - throws a spanner in the works. Aussies should have looked to their own history and treated the floodlit period as a modern version of an old fashioned Australian 'sticky dog'. Bradman always argued that a sticky wicket in Australia was far worse to bat on than one in England (uncovered era) because the combination of rain and a churned up pitch then exposed to a hot Australian sun produced a more uneven surface - that dynamic produced some very strange declarations back in the day.
However, it hasn't half livened up a Test Match that was only going one way. In many ways England's bowling on the morning of Day 4 was more impressive than their exploiting of the conditions the night before. I actually thought we were a bit unlucky not to get them out for a target of 320 which would have really put it in the balance-those 40 more may well be the difference here. As it is we have battled like crazy and are definitely right in this. If you think about it as 3 partnerships of 60 then it seems very doable and the New Ball comes at a nice time too. In reality you can't help thinking it's probably all on Root. They are clearly favourties but Malan and Root very nearly got us to the tipping point where the pressure flipped over onto the Aussies before Cummins removed Malan with a beauty. If we can get to that point again but with a lower target it could get very interesting (I think promoting Woakes rather than sending in Moeen, or Anderson as canon fodder, was a terrific decision by England and I hope it pays dividends in Session 1 tomorrow) - Steve Smith will be the skipper whose struggling to sleep tonight; no doubt about that. The Ashes have suddenly sprung to life here - I thought that final session was the best couple of hours of Test Cricket I've seen in years. Really high quality stuff from both sides played in a high stakes environment.
First time I have really properly sat down and watched a day/night Test in this way. I have to say my feelings are quite positive - I like the way it has the potential to even up the balance between bat and ball and change the dynamic of a game in that way. I'm not sure it's as artificial in that sense as some claim either - as I pointed out above, wet/uncovered wickets did something similar. I'm not sure we should have something against the idea of playing conditions changing - that's supposed to be part of the game to a degree. Indeed. At the end of the day it's a TEST Match. It's supposed to be the ultimate test of Bat and Ball in cricket and that means adapting and playing on worn surfaces, hard and soft pitches, atmospheric conditions like cloud, or blazing heat or humidity
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