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Post by alloutofgas on Jun 25, 2016 20:41:43 GMT
I'm concerned rather than miffed. First past the post won, but it was hardly a convincing majority on such a major decision. Two choices, both campaigns based on guesswork - no surprise that opinion was split down the middle. One is a majority in a democracy Angas. Over 1.2 million is a huge majority. Opinion wasn't split down the middle it was 52% to 48%. It's far more democratic than the unelected bureaucrats that were running us. It was a binary vote, yes or no. No Parliamentary constituencies, boundary changes, tactical voting. Pure Democracy and democracy won. All these people whining about the vote. Compared to three terms of Mrs T. and the Currie Shagger this is a walk in the park ffs!!!
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Post by manchestergas on Jun 25, 2016 20:54:09 GMT
One is a majority in a democracy Angas. Over 1.2 million is a huge majority. Opinion wasn't split down the middle it was 52% to 48%. It's far more democratic than the unelected bureaucrats that were running us. It was a binary vote, yes or no. No Parliamentary constituencies, boundary changes, tactical voting. Pure Democracy and democracy won. All these people whining about the vote. Compared to three terms of Mrs T. and the Currie Shagger this is a walk in the park ffs!!! So if the vote had been to Remain, would democracy had lost?
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Post by tanksfull on Jun 25, 2016 21:02:31 GMT
A comment on immigration:-
10 or 12 years ago I dealt with a manufacturing company in a fairly rural area. They employed around 400 people. Because they found it impossible to employ more local people, so that they could expand further, they took on around 40 Polish employees.
Their choice was simple: employ the 40 or so Polish (it may well be many more now) or send the majority of their production abroad - probably to China - and only retain short-run and high quality work which would have resulted in 350 redundancies.
In a nutshell employing those 40 people saved 350 jobs.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
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Post by eppinggas on Jun 25, 2016 21:04:27 GMT
A Referendum was probably not the way to settle the EU "problem". However, "Leave" won. If "Remain" had won - we would have had to abide by that.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,206
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Post by eppinggas on Jun 25, 2016 21:12:20 GMT
Open door EU immigration is a massive problem. That is why "Leave" won. Controlled immigration is something the political elite refused to contemplate (well they can't because they are bound by EU law / EU freedom of movement). Being opposed to open door EU immigration does not make anyone racist. At least we can continue to have that debate now without being called openly racist. I certainly am not. As a consequence of this Referendum - the Labour Party will get torn apart. Labour heartlands like Hartlepool (Mandelsons old constituency - excuse me while I P*ss myself) were the reason we voted out. Labour will get wiped out in England - just like they did in Scotland. I'm a right-winger. But the death of decent opposition to a Tory Government (whoever that may be) worries me.
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Peter Parker
Global Moderator
Richard Walker
You have been sentenced to DELETION!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,920
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Post by Peter Parker on Jun 25, 2016 21:14:19 GMT
One is a majority in a democracy Angas. Over 1.2 million is a huge majority. Opinion wasn't split down the middle it was 52% to 48%. It's far more democratic than the unelected bureaucrats that were running us. It was a binary vote, yes or no. No Parliamentary constituencies, boundary changes, tactical voting. Pure Democracy and democracy won. All these people whining about the vote. Compared to three terms of Mrs T. and the Currie Shagger this is a walk in the park ffs!!! What would be interesting would be the views of the 26/27% that didnt vote. Did they not know enough?, did they think it all bollox, did they think it should be left up to those we already elected?
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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 25, 2016 21:17:48 GMT
A comment on immigration:- 10 or 12 years ago I dealt with a manufacturing company in a fairly rural area. They employed around 400 people. Because they found it impossible to employ more local people, so that they could expand further, they took on around 40 Polish employees. Their choice was simple: employ the 40 or so Polish (it may well be many more now) or send the majority of their production abroad - probably to China - and only retain short-run and high quality work which would have resulted in 350 redundancies. In a nutshell employing those 40 people saved 350 jobs. And? When Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU but were denied free movement (oh yes the Remain never said that's the fact if Europe) the UK let a determined number of them to have work visas to work in the fields of Lincolnshire and that is how it will work in the future
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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 25, 2016 21:21:18 GMT
It was a binary vote, yes or no. No Parliamentary constituencies, boundary changes, tactical voting. Pure Democracy and democracy won. All these people whining about the vote. Compared to three terms of Mrs T. and the Currie Shagger this is a walk in the park ffs!!! What would be interesting would be the views of the 26/27% that didnt vote. Did they not know enough?, did they think it all bollox, did they think it should be left up to those we already elected? Why would it be interesting? People decided they couldn't be bothered to vote, in many ways it's like people not voting for or against the fans directors.
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Post by alloutofgas on Jun 25, 2016 21:26:16 GMT
It was a binary vote, yes or no. No Parliamentary constituencies, boundary changes, tactical voting. Pure Democracy and democracy won. All these people whining about the vote. Compared to three terms of Mrs T. and the Currie Shagger this is a walk in the park ffs!!! So if the vote had been to Remain, would democracy had lost? No mate, Remain would have won. However they didn't. Your point??
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Post by manchestergas on Jun 25, 2016 21:29:35 GMT
Open door EU immigration is a massive problem. That is why "Leave" won. Controlled immigration is something the political elite refused to contemplate (well they can't because they are bound by EU law / EU freedom of movement). Being opposed to open door EU immigration does not make anyone racist. At least we can continue to have that debate now without being called openly racist. I certainly am not. As a consequence of this Referendum - the Labour Party will get torn apart. Labour heartlands like Hartlepool (Mandelsons old constituency - excuse me while I P*ss myself) were the reason we voted out. Labour will get wiped out in England - just like they did in Scotland. I'm a right-winger. But the death of decent opposition to a Tory Government (whoever that may be) worries me. Indeed the one thing the Tory party are good at is staying in power. Labour are are finished as a party for the foreseeable future. We will have a right wing Tory government outside the EU. As I said many of people who voted Leave do not accord with that viewpoint and will be hit hard. Turkeys voting for Christmas. For the record my politics are free market economics and liberal on social policy.
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Post by tanksfull on Jun 25, 2016 21:29:53 GMT
Open door EU immigration is a massive problem. That is why "Leave" won. Controlled immigration is something the political elite refused to contemplate (well they can't because they are bound by EU law / EU freedom of movement). Being opposed to open door EU immigration does not make anyone racist. At least we can continue to have that debate now without being called openly racist. I certainly am not. As a consequence of this Referendum - the Labour Party will get torn apart. Labour heartlands like Hartlepool (Mandelsons old constituency - excuse me while I P*ss myself) were the reason we voted out. Labour will get wiped out in England - just like they did in Scotland. I'm a right-winger. But the death of decent opposition to a Tory Government (whoever that may be) worries me. Of course it is not racist. However, please explain your understanding of the difference between "open door immigration" and "controlled immigration" specifically where the EU is concerned? I'm referring to the actual/practical result not the theory. Will we have less people coming in to the country? Because we currently have the highest level of employment for many, many years we will still have the same amount of immigration and substantially increase the cost of administering it. Why do we "foreign" have doctors and nurses? In the UK we already have £1.8m workers from the EU and £2m workers from the "rest of the world". If we are to grow and become richer where do we get the extra employees from?
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Post by manchestergas on Jun 25, 2016 21:35:34 GMT
So if the vote had been to Remain, would democracy had lost? No mate, Remain would have won. However they didn't. Your point?? Alloutogas, although there is an argument referendums do not result in good government, look at California and the argument it is better to look at political decisions as a whole than concentrating on single issues one after another, I actually agree with your answer above. I think my worry was your view on whether democracy worked depended on the outcome of the vote, not the vote itself. Obviously that is not your view.
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Post by manchestergas on Jun 25, 2016 21:37:00 GMT
Open door EU immigration is a massive problem. That is why "Leave" won. Controlled immigration is something the political elite refused to contemplate (well they can't because they are bound by EU law / EU freedom of movement). Being opposed to open door EU immigration does not make anyone racist. At least we can continue to have that debate now without being called openly racist. I certainly am not. As a consequence of this Referendum - the Labour Party will get torn apart. Labour heartlands like Hartlepool (Mandelsons old constituency - excuse me while I P*ss myself) were the reason we voted out. Labour will get wiped out in England - just like they did in Scotland. I'm a right-winger. But the death of decent opposition to a Tory Government (whoever that may be) worries me. Of course it is not racist. However, please explain your understanding of the difference between "open door immigration" and "controlled immigration" specifically where the EU is concerned? I'm referring to the actual/practical result not the theory. Will we have less people coming in to the country? Because we currently have the highest level of employment for many, many years we will still have the same amount of immigration and substantially increase the cost of administering it. Why do we "foreign" have doctors and nurses? In the UK we already have £1.8m workers from the EU and £2m workers from the "rest of the world". If we are to grow and become richer where do we get the extra employees from? tankful there is the valid argument we can now control the level of EU immigration, however not sure that is what all who voted for Leave actually wanted. I think they may be disappointed if immigration levels do not fall. Farage admitted the numbers coming in may not fall.
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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 25, 2016 21:38:27 GMT
Open door EU immigration is a massive problem. That is why "Leave" won. Controlled immigration is something the political elite refused to contemplate (well they can't because they are bound by EU law / EU freedom of movement). Being opposed to open door EU immigration does not make anyone racist. At least we can continue to have that debate now without being called openly racist. I certainly am not. As a consequence of this Referendum - the Labour Party will get torn apart. Labour heartlands like Hartlepool (Mandelsons old constituency - excuse me while I P*ss myself) were the reason we voted out. Labour will get wiped out in England - just like they did in Scotland. I'm a right-winger. But the death of decent opposition to a Tory Government (whoever that may be) worries me. Of course it is not racist. However, please explain your understanding of the difference between "open door immigration" and "controlled immigration" specifically where the EU is concerned? I'm referring to the actual/practical result not the theory. Will we have less people coming in to the country? Because we currently have the highest level of employment for many, many years we will still have the same amount of immigration and substantially increase the cost of administering it. Why do we "foreign" have doctors and nurses? In the UK we already have £1.8m workers from the EU and £2m workers from the "rest of the world". If we are to grow and become richer where do we get the extra employees from? Well according to the Remain camp everything I'd doom and gloom after voting Leave so obviously immigration will fall as why would Europeans or non Europeans want to come to a failing economy? Oh you're saying we'll still be a successful economy and people will still want to come. Perhaps you should consider your views on the success of the UK
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Post by tanksfull on Jun 25, 2016 21:42:46 GMT
A comment on immigration:- 10 or 12 years ago I dealt with a manufacturing company in a fairly rural area. They employed around 400 people. Because they found it impossible to employ more local people, so that they could expand further, they took on around 40 Polish employees. Their choice was simple: employ the 40 or so Polish (it may well be many more now) or send the majority of their production abroad - probably to China - and only retain short-run and high quality work which would have resulted in 350 redundancies. In a nutshell employing those 40 people saved 350 jobs. And? When Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU but were denied free movement (oh yes the Remain never said that's the fact if Europe) the UK let a determined number of them to have work visas to work in the fields of Lincolnshire and that is how it will work in the future Sorry, I genuinly do not understand the question or the point (if there is one)? I gave a specific example of the positives of immigration. Do I want to see my environment changed with people and situations I'm not comfortable with? Who would? I feel deeply for those in Lincolnshire whose lives have been drastically changed. I do not think that is racist. The point is there are jobs which need to be carried out and those currently in the area either do not want to do them or they all have employment; otherwise the immigrants would not be there and not be needed. If they don't come in through free movement they would likely come in through a visa. I'm not quite sure what the difference is. I'm not sure how leaving the EU has changed anything on the immigration front? I would love to hear other people's views on what will change.
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Post by manchestergas on Jun 25, 2016 21:42:50 GMT
County, but is it not the result not how it is achieved. I suspect many on the Leave side (maybe not you) will be disappointed if migration levels do not fall. If they stay high for economic reasons i.e. we are successful outside the EU will that not disappoint some who voted Leave. I really hope we are.
There is the argument migrants, and I concentrate on EU migrants, we could always control non-EU migration, put pressure on social facilities, however crap social facilities is not the EUs fault, but the UK governments.
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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 25, 2016 21:50:01 GMT
And? When Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU but were denied free movement (oh yes the Remain never said that's the fact if Europe) the UK let a determined number of them to have work visas to work in the fields of Lincolnshire and that is how it will work in the future Sorry, I genuinly do not understand the question or the point (if there is one)? I gave a specific example of the positives of immigration. Do I want to see my environment changed with people and situations I'm not comfortable with? Who would? I feel deeply for those in Lincolnshire whose lives have been drastically changed. I do not think that is racist. The point is there are jobs which need to be carried out and those currently in the area either do not want to do them or they all have employment; otherwise the immigrants would not be there and not be needed. If they don't come in through free movement they would likely come in through a visa. I'm not quite sure what the difference is. I'm not sure how leaving the EU has changed anything on the immigration front? I would love to hear other people's views on what will change. Well obviously there is a difference that you can't understand. In the EU anyone can come here regardless whether we need them or not. Outside the Eu we can decide if we need people or not. Is that to complicated for you to understand?
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Post by tanksfull on Jun 25, 2016 21:51:41 GMT
Of course it is not racist. However, please explain your understanding of the difference between "open door immigration" and "controlled immigration" specifically where the EU is concerned? I'm referring to the actual/practical result not the theory. Will we have less people coming in to the country? Because we currently have the highest level of employment for many, many years we will still have the same amount of immigration and substantially increase the cost of administering it. Why do we "foreign" have doctors and nurses? In the UK we already have £1.8m workers from the EU and £2m workers from the "rest of the world". If we are to grow and become richer where do we get the extra employees from? tankful there is the valid argument we can now control the level of EU immigration, however not sure that is what all who voted for Leave actually wanted. I think they may be disappointed if immigration levels do not fall. Farage admitted the numbers coming in may not fall. Control the people who come in yes, maybe. However unless we suddenly find people to employ we need more immigration so the levels will still be exactly the same. Controlling immigration will not stop immigration. I spoke recently to an agent who specialises in bringing employees into the country. He is not the slightest bit concerned because there are so many jobs, in certain sectors, which cannot be filled. Care in the community is vastly undermanned. So much so that a client of his is looking to purchase houses and cars for immigrants to use.
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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 25, 2016 21:55:17 GMT
County, but is it not the result not how it is achieved. I suspect many on the Leave side (maybe not you) will be disappointed if migration levels do not fall. If they stay high for economic reasons i.e. we are successful outside the EU will that not disappoint some who voted Leave. I really hope we are. There is the argument migrants, and I concentrate on EU migrants, we could always control non-EU migration, put pressure on social facilities, however crap social facilities is not the EUs fault, but the UK governments. I can only speak for myself, if it economically worthwhile to have immigrants then great I'll be happy with that as for other people they have to speak for themselves that's the benefit of living in a democracy, and possible why some people leave where they live to come here. Perhaps people should try to spread the right to democracy and free speech in other countries. In honestly people haven't the balls to do that.
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Post by manchestergas on Jun 25, 2016 21:56:30 GMT
Indeed. Unless the UK government encourages more British born people to take those jobs, and they could have done that in the EU, nothing changes. Immigration levels stay the same, in or out the EU.
County I accept your point we have control of immigration but nothing changes in reality unless something changes at our end (not the EUs).
The alternative is just reduce immigration without sorting our the problems with our economy and just destroy value. An argument but not a very appealing one.
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