Peter Parker
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Richard Walker
You have been sentenced to DELETION!
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Post by Peter Parker on Apr 28, 2016 9:15:58 GMT
I commented somewhere else on the discussion of Hillsborough and worth repeating here.
There is obviously a lot of anger and a lot aimed at the Police and the authorities, however let us not forget not all the coppers were bad. There were honest honourable officers doing their job and helping the victims and it is a shame they are tarred by the same brust that has covered South Yorkshire Police
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Apr 28, 2016 10:25:32 GMT
I commented somewhere else on the discussion of Hillsborough and worth repeating here. There is obviously a lot of anger and a lot aimed at the Police and the authorities, however let us not forget not all the coppers were bad. There were honest honourable officers doing their job and helping the victims and it is a shame they are tarred by the same brust that has covered South Yorkshire Police I agree! The minority of good policing seems to not get mentioned at all.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
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Post by kingswood Polak on Apr 28, 2016 12:19:43 GMT
There is no justice. No one has or will be jailed and there are still people in government, such as Boris, who said awful things about Liverpudlians and yet they will be able to go about their lives unhindered. I would wager no one is jailed. 96 people died and were labelled as drunken scum. The truth may be out but there is no justice in this, not at all. Agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments, however I am unsure about blaming individual people about what they said about Liverpool fans because we do not know what lies they were fed. I was saying some not nice things about the fans at the time because of what we were told. The police, the press, yes they deserve all they get, we know they were to blame for the lies but we need further investigation to see how far up the pyramid this whole sorry saga of lies went and bring everybody responsible to justice. Agree with you though, it won`t happen. As an impressionable teenager one thing it taught me was to treat anything heard in the media with suspicion and to dig further to try to get the truth and they are still at it today as witnessed by the stupid stories about migrants. I have never bought any newspaper since those days - if I want to read stories I will buy the Beano. You are, of course, right but I was brought up on what many woukd call the wrong side of the lines and I had already experienced what Police, local police, could do and would do and the lengths that they could go to if they had it in for one person or a group of people. I had my own period of being arrested, courts and charges and I now feel quite ashamed at that & wish I had a second opportunity to put right the wrongs that I did do but I learned the hard way that there are some very rotten people who could make life so very difficult and just because of me having the same surname that drew attention from them. I try to research before I post, I try to back up any argument with at least some modicum of fact but I still feel sick to my eye teeth that Duckenfield has been allowed to retire, on an extremely generous pension, while his outright lies were besmirching those who died and their families. The press talk about 96 victims but that is just not true. You have the families of every single one who died, they are also victims and they carry a life sentence. I vividly remember those who said it was karmic in nature due to the Heysel disaster and that really made me angry at the time but people being what they are, often just repeat verbatim what they heard or read and without looking any further than their own noses. This really is the biggest & best opportunity to date, to get to the core of what really happened and bring to justice ALL of those that were a part of this conspiracy to paint an entire city as nothing better than drunken scum. I still remember the sneering looks and judgmental rhetoric spouted by Thatcher and her Acolytes. For me, I cannot forget seeing the events unfold on TV and then seeing the names and ages of those killed. For some reason the Hicks family were the ones who caught my eye and also my soul. How could anyone label 2 young girls as drunken and aggressive football hooligans ? I remember seeing their photos and tears streaming down my face. There are quite a few people who died along this road to justice and I hope they can now rest in peace. It's strange really as I thought I was past the anger but this has stirred it all up again but this time I truly hope that justice really is done and seen to be done. I salute those that carried on this battle and it really was a battle, one where they were railroaded in an attempt to stop them, at every juncture. Well done all of those family members and legal teams who never ever have given up. Personally, I will know that at least some justice will have been served when and if people are jailed for their perjury and the outright lies that were told. I didn't realise that this still made me feel so raw.
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LPGas
Stuart Taylor
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Post by LPGas on Apr 28, 2016 13:22:58 GMT
Anyone remember 24.01.1981 Southampton away in an FA Cup 4th round tie. The Dell had various sections (pens if you like) for the away fans. for this game they crammed in far more than they were designed to hold. This was by far the worst crush I've ever experienced. Yes I was there. It was very bad, at times you had to push your arms out just to get a deep breath
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LPGas
Stuart Taylor
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Post by LPGas on Apr 28, 2016 13:59:58 GMT
The whole of the Hillsborough was terrible, including the aftermath, the cover ups and the lies but we must not forget that this disaster doesn't mean that Liverpool fans at that time were angels. People forget about the 39 Italian fans that died at Heysel after being chased by them. Two years later 14 Liverpool fans were extradited and charged, tried and found guilty of involuntary murder Also lets remember why we had fences at the grounds then (including Eastville) for a reason; to stop fans getting on to the pitch and fighting and chasing players. ALA Luton and Millwall, and later with us at the Gate (Holloways first derby)
The other thing I don't understand on that day was that lots of fans could see what was happening and yet still more and more piled in, especially to the middle of the stand. Yes there was a total lack of any direction by the police, but those poor people were crushed by their own fellow supporters. This is the bit I don't understand why it appears that no one was stopping more and more of them coming in.
I also think that Bradford was another, and in some ways worse disaster; those fans were burnt to death. One person throws a cigarette away and that's it. Wooden stand and rubbish underneath it. We often forget about Bradford, they were not a Prem club then, and that is why it is probably fading in to history.
Likewise can be said of the disaster at Rangers (Glasgow) who remembers that? 66 people died and 140 injured. This was 1971.
This is why most clubs have modern all seater stadia, to try and eliminate these things.
Meanwhile at the Mem I believe there are occasions when the Blackthorn could be classed as "unsafe" especially when it is full to bursting and about 2.58 t a group of our supporters who come straight from the pub; some tanked up; push and shove their way to the place where they want to stand.
We need a new all seater stadium
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Post by badbloodash on Apr 28, 2016 15:31:14 GMT
The whole of the Hillsborough was terrible, including the aftermath, the cover ups and the lies but we must not forget that this disaster doesn't mean that Liverpool fans at that time were angels. People forget about the 39 Italian fans that died at Heysel after being chased by them. Two years later 14 Liverpool fans were extradited and charged, tried and found guilty of involuntary murder Also lets remember why we had fences at the grounds then (including Eastville) for a reason; to stop fans getting on to the pitch and fighting and chasing players. ALA Luton and Millwall, and later with us at the Gate (Holloways first derby) The other thing I don't understand on that day was that lots of fans could see what was happening and yet still more and more piled in, especially to the middle of the stand. Yes there was a total lack of any direction by the police, but those poor people were crushed by their own fellow supporters. This is the bit I don't understand why it appears that no one was stopping more and more of them coming in. I also think that Bradford was another, and in some ways worse disaster; those fans were burnt to death. One person throws a cigarette away and that's it. Wooden stand and rubbish underneath it. We often forget about Bradford, they were not a Prem club then, and that is why it is probably fading in to history. Likewise can be said of the disaster at Rangers (Glasgow) who remembers that? 66 people died and 140 injured. This was 1971. This is why most clubs have modern all seater stadia, to try and eliminate these things. Meanwhile at the Mem I believe there are occasions when the Blackthorn could be classed as "unsafe" especially when it is full to bursting and about 2.58 t a group of our supporters who come straight from the pub; some tanked up; push and shove their way to the place where they want to stand. We need a new all seater stadium There was a cover up of the ibrox disaster gross negligence . And with the blackthorn certain parts are more popular so the fans aren't distributed evenly .even all seater stadiums aren't perfectly safe I seem to Remember a Cardiff fan falling out of the stand at millwall a few years ago
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Post by richmace on Apr 28, 2016 15:46:05 GMT
The whole of the Hillsborough was terrible, including the aftermath, the cover ups and the lies but we must not forget that this disaster doesn't mean that Liverpool fans at that time were angels. People forget about the 39 Italian fans that died at Heysel after being chased by them. Two years later 14 Liverpool fans were extradited and charged, tried and found guilty of involuntary murder Also lets remember why we had fences at the grounds then (including Eastville) for a reason; to stop fans getting on to the pitch and fighting and chasing players. ALA Luton and Millwall, and later with us at the Gate (Holloways first derby) The other thing I don't understand on that day was that lots of fans could see what was happening and yet still more and more piled in, especially to the middle of the stand. Yes there was a total lack of any direction by the police, but those poor people were crushed by their own fellow supporters. This is the bit I don't understand why it appears that no one was stopping more and more of them coming in. I also think that Bradford was another, and in some ways worse disaster; those fans were burnt to death. One person throws a cigarette away and that's it. Wooden stand and rubbish underneath it. We often forget about Bradford, they were not a Prem club then, and that is why it is probably fading in to history. Likewise can be said of the disaster at Rangers (Glasgow) who remembers that? 66 people died and 140 injured. This was 1971. This is why most clubs have modern all seater stadia, to try and eliminate these things. Meanwhile at the Mem I believe there are occasions when the Blackthorn could be classed as "unsafe" especially when it is full to bursting and about 2.58 t a group of our supporters who come straight from the pub; some tanked up; push and shove their way to the place where they want to stand. We need a new all seater stadium I agree 100%. Every time I hear the Hillsborough tragedy mentioned it makes me feel sick. Really deep down sick. As a supporter, I cannot imagine what those poor souls went through. An awful, awful day where people were treated worse than cattle and a completely preventable situation was allowed to happen. Every time I hear people talking about "safe standing" I am instantly reminded of Hillsborough. Yes modern terraces are safer than those horrible fenced pens, but there will always be an element of danger associated with terracing, by the very nature of having a high concentration of people in a restricted area. The word "crush" should never be applied to a group of people. Yet I have heard some people say they enjoy the feeling. Strange. I am not talking about the love meaning of the word... All seater stadiums are the only civilised and safe way to allow large numbers of people to watch an event in safety, especially one with vigorous celebrations. Visits to Wembley and the Millenium Stadium were proof of that for me. I for one, cannot wait for our new stadium. I do think people also forget why the fences were there. Along with the horrible Hillsborough scenes, crowd violence and fighting was also a regular occurrence. Football really was completely different back then, and I am not sure I would have gone to a football match myself in those days, let alone take my son with me... Football has changed for the better, largely because of the events in Sheffield. We will finally embrace that revolution soon. Thank god.
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Post by bluecamel on Apr 28, 2016 16:29:17 GMT
I commented somewhere else on the discussion of Hillsborough and worth repeating here. There is obviously a lot of anger and a lot aimed at the Police and the authorities, however let us not forget not all the coppers were bad. There were honest honourable officers doing their job and helping the victims and it is a shame they are tarred by the same brust that has covered South Yorkshire Police I agree with your sentiment, but the anger is justified against those who lied and placed blame upon the innocent.
I work with younger people and some have actually said to me 'What is all the fuss about, is it all being blown out of proportion?'
My reply is stern and direct - and hopefully they now understand the severity of the crime that certain Police, Press and Government officials committed.
They must me held accountable, not via a mass witch hunt by blaming anyone in a police uniform, government suit or a pen touting journalist. But those who intentionally lied, those who hit supporters trying to escape the hell that they were trying to get away from., those who doctored official statements [over 200!! police and public statements]
Imagine if it were your son, daughter, father or mother that had died that day in such a horrific manner and then the victims, and you are labelled as 'Scum' by the gutter press, government officials and certain police officials. ?
Yes, you are right, and calm is called for - but those who have fault this injustice have done so for 27 years with complete and utter dignity and will carry on to do so, until those responsible are found and treated accordingly.
Each campaigner who has fault the system deserves a MBE or whatever relates to such action.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2016 16:29:31 GMT
I totally disagree with some of the things that have been said here. The 'crush' is usually leaving the stadium all seater or terraced,the Ibrox disaster was on a stairway leading out of the ground. I detest all seater stadiums,as for 'football has changed for the better' I think it has become a sterile experience with little or no atmosphere,may as well watch the game on film at a cinema. When I first went to a game in 67 it was the atmosphere that made me want to keep going as much as the football,if I was a taken to my first game now I am quite sure that I wouldn't want to go again regularly. At Northampton recently I nearly left part way into the second half,I found the whole day dull,the pub before the game a choice between a Frankie and Bennies or a Flaming Grill on a dull out of town retail park the new modern ground soulless,ok I am glad that I didn't leave early as I saw the fightback. On the way home I told the others that next season I will only travel to games at 'old' stadiums I just don't enjoy the modern ones, I realise that I am in a minority but I much preferred the old days.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2016 16:36:31 GMT
I also fundamentally disagree that a terrace is more dangerous than a seated arena, but I don't think a thread about Hillsborough is the place I want to discuss it particularly.
I hope there is a line drawn under Hillsborough at some point and we move on (without forgetting what happened), but not before those responsible are held to account for their actions. I also hope Boris Johnson's despicable comments from 2004 come back to haunt him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2016 16:54:18 GMT
I also fundamentally disagree that a terrace is more dangerous than a seated arena, but I don't think a thread about Hillsborough is the place I want to discuss it particularly. I hope there is a line drawn under Hillsborough at some point and we move on (without forgetting what happened), but not before those responsible are held to account for their actions. I also hope Boris Johnson's despicable comments from 2004 come back to haunt him. You are right all seater stadia should have their own thread. Hillsborough was a terrible event and it was always going to change things,but I stood in a 33,000 plus crowd at Eastville in the 70s against Stoke,nobody was hurt,and that was the same at countless games at different stadiums with huge crowds for 50 years. OK after Hillsborough things had to be looked at and made safer but without the fences in the front of the terracing at Hillsborough the crowd would have been able to escape onto the pitch,it was the fences that needed to go not the terraces.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
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Post by kingswood Polak on Apr 28, 2016 17:27:32 GMT
I also fundamentally disagree that a terrace is more dangerous than a seated arena, but I don't think a thread about Hillsborough is the place I want to discuss it particularly. I hope there is a line drawn under Hillsborough at some point and we move on (without forgetting what happened), but not before those responsible are held to account for their actions. I also hope Boris Johnson's despicable comments from 2004 come back to haunt him. You are right all seater stadia should have their own thread. Hillsborough was a terrible event and it was always going to change things,but I stood in a 33,000 plus crowd at Eastville in the 70s against Stoke,nobody was hurt,and that was the same at countless games at different stadiums with huge crowds for 50 years. OK after Hillsborough things had to be looked at and made safer but without the fences in the front of the terracing at Hillsborough the crowd would have been able to escape onto the pitch,it was the fences that needed to go not the terraces.
Funny you mention the Stoke game as it was one that my dad felt was unsafe to take me to. I remember being totally gutted but I totally get it now. I think many who were there have said they felt the actual figure was much higher
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crater
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Post by crater on Apr 28, 2016 18:01:59 GMT
When I was 17 or 18 years of age, I remember watching us at Ashton Gate in the 1980s and getting into the ground right on 3 o'clock and being stood near the back of the terrace feeling completely squashed. Within 15 minutes or so I was 'swept along' in the crowd and ended up right at the front of the terrace and at no time did I have my feet on the ground. It was a very scary experience and I was very conscious that if at any time I was to fall, I would in all likelihood be crushed and I genuinely did fear for my life. I well remember being at the front of the terrace looking through the fence and not caring about the rubbish view I had, I was just relieved that I had my feet on the floor. Often games at the 82ers were not all ticket for us as it seemed they wanted to cram in as many spectators as they could.
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Post by Cosmic Pasty on Apr 29, 2016 2:09:56 GMT
All these years later and it's still hard to get my head round it, how ninety-six people could go to a football match expecting a day to remember, something that would be with them for the rest of their lives. Lives that would end within a matter of hours. At a football match. Ninety-six people. My husband's cousin was at Hillsborough that day, but he never talks about it. Understandably. We're not particularly close to him and years can go by between meeting up with him, but it would have had an impact on us as a family if he hadn't come home from that match. How utterly unbearable it must have been over the years for the families of those who really were close to those who didn't make it back, people who they loved and shared their daily lives with. And then to have to spend decades defending their loved ones against the lies that those in authority had told in order to cover up their own incompetence. There must be a lot of people behind the fact that the unlawful killing verdict has been far too long in coming.
Watching the footage of the event, there's so much about it that was disturbing. The enthusiastic applause in response to Kenny Dalglish's appeal for calm over the loudspeaker always seems so... inappropriate. Probably because I was once told that a dying person's hearing is the last thing to go. What really bothers me is the sight of all those police officers lined up on the pitch or wandering about apparently doing nothing while fans run frantically around trying to stretcher the casualties out on advertising hoardings. I don't blame 'the police' though, some of who are probably still struggling with what happened to this day. I blame those who were giving them the orders. The press who rushed to print the lies we're told they were fed - publishing them in the most sensational fashion - instead of using a decent bit of investigative reporting to get to the truth have a lot to answer for too.
In the end, it was the families who got to the truth after all this time, and they can be very proud of that. It must be a small consolation though.
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Post by cockinthecup on May 1, 2016 13:00:12 GMT
The other thing I don't understand on that day was that lots of fans could see what was happening and yet still more and more piled in, especially to the middle of the stand. Yes there was a total lack of any direction by the police, but those poor people were crushed by their own fellow supporters. This is the bit I don't understand why it appears that no one was stopping more and more of them coming in. Absolute nonsense The layout of the Leppings Lane End meant that people could not see how full the middle pens were until they were in there. Once in, exit was impossible due to the lateral fences dividing the terrace up and the numbers of fans, who had no idea how full the pens were, coming down the tunnel. These pens were entered from a central tunnel which was directly in front of the entrance from the street. The larger, emptier, side pens were entered via poorly sign posted routes to the side. We've just had the longest inquest in UK history establishing these facts and a jury returned a majority verdict that the fans did not engage in any conduct which may have contributed to the disaster. Yet you post this crass and insulting rubbish.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
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Post by kingswood Polak on May 1, 2016 13:03:03 GMT
The other thing I don't understand on that day was that lots of fans could see what was happening and yet still more and more piled in, especially to the middle of the stand. Yes there was a total lack of any direction by the police, but those poor people were crushed by their own fellow supporters. This is the bit I don't understand why it appears that no one was stopping more and more of them coming in. Absolute nonsense The layout of the Leppings Lane End meant that people could not see how full the middle pens were until they were in there. Once in, exit was impossible due to the lateral fences dividing the terrace up and the numbers of fans, who had no idea how full the pens were, coming down the tunnel. These pens were entered from a central tunnel which was directly in front of the entrance from the street. The larger, emptier, side pens were entered via poorly sign posted routes to the side. We've just had the longest inquest in UK history establishing these facts and a jury returned a majority verdict that the fans did not engage in any conduct which may have contributed to the disaster. Yet you post this crass and insulting rubbish. Well said
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