faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
|
Post by faggotygas on Nov 6, 2015 15:10:19 GMT
It does seem strange. But, are see tickets so evil? They might be, but I can't assume that just based on the fact that they make a profit from the services they provide, after all that's the point of a company.
A bit of digging about, See tickets are part of Vivendi, a French media company. The subsidiary that includes See Tickets, Vivendi Village, is actually loss making, although I can't find information on the performance of See Tickets on their own. Does anybody have any evidence of collusion here, either between the Conference and See tickets, or between See Tickets and the other companies that do the same job? Is the charge that See tickets made just how much it costs for this service?
On to the Conference - is it profit making? Is it overpaying its executives? From what I remember, they have a policy of taking quite a bit of any profits from the playoffs, and redistributing it to all clubs in the league. Is this wrong?
One thing I do agree with is that, financially, playing the conference at Wembley is not appropriate, and I suspect that hiring of the stadium took a lot of the money. So financially it is nuts, but are there other, indirect reasons for playing at Wembley that outweigh the immediate cost?
Because it's stitch up job is why. There is no obvious need for an intermediary company selling tickets - the service it provides is of extremely questionable value and the only reason people use it is because they have no proper choice, not because they are validating the quality of its service. Like many other similar situations it serves no obvious benefit to the consumer and is just designed to give a company a captive market; it is just a cartel agreement between the Conference, Wembley and the company from which, you assume, they all do pretty well out of thanks very much. When I bought my ticket to Wembley in 1995 I bought it directly off the football club; there's no reason at all why that still couldn't be the case but it serves the interests the organisations involved (though not, interestingly, the clubs themselves in this instance) to negotiate exclusive deals like this. Proper competition would mean multiple ticket agencies selling the same tickets and competing on cost with the benefit of driving down the cost for the consumer. It's a bit like TV Rights; that's not a market from the point of view of the consumer either, it's simply a cartel monopoly negotiated at the level of the supplier that constantly drives costs up for the consumer. A proper market would mean that I could pay £2.50 to watch a game streamed through someone's mobile phone on the halfway line or £25 to watch an all singing, all dancing 100 camera angles, freeze frame, match statistics at my finger tips type arrangement.
I like the market idea - have you got any actual evidence of this working though? Like I say, I've no evidence of See Tickets being an outrageously profitable company. Wouldn't the football club doing the admin reduce the football club's profits, as they have to get in extra staff, pay admin etc? Could Rovers handle selling 30-40 thousand tickets in a short space of time, with current staff levels?
Anyway, I don't think it's the ticketing company that has made such a reduction of the profit left for the clubs - I think its the cost of hiring Wembley, which is fine if you can bring, say, 60k supporters but blows the budget if you can only bring 40k.
|
|
kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,278
|
Post by kingswood Polak on Nov 6, 2015 15:25:57 GMT
I feel sorry for both clubs as I would imagine we didn't make much more although I seem to remember their being an article on the OS that said something about the club making more if more fans turned up but I could be wrong or the voices are telling me duff Information lol. Damned sneaky voices Well yeah, if the theory about the hire of Wembley taking the lion's share of the revenue being correct. Wembley would have charged a fixed fee for the stadium hire, plus an addition for each tier & stand opened, or thereabouts. There would therefore have been a breakeven point, over which any revenue after taking out Admin and the conference's share would have been profit, or thereabouts.
So an attendance of 60,000 would have made a much higher profit per fan than 40,000.
For example - and these are entirely made up figures and percentages - let
ticket price per fan = £40 after tax Wembley base hire = £1m Per tier extra £50k Pier section extra £4k See ticket take = 6% Conference take = 50% of what's left
Eg1: Attendance 40,000
Ticket take = £1.6m See Ticket take = £96k leaving £1,504k Less wembley hire (3 tiers, 20 sections = 1m + 150k + 80k = £1,230k ) leaving £274k Conference take = 274k/2 = 137k leaving £137k Per club = £68.5k
Eg2: Attendance 60,000
Ticket take = £2.4m See Ticket take = £144k leaving £2,256k Less wembley hire (3 tiers, 30 sections = 1m + 150k + 120k = £1,270k ) leaving £986k Conference take = 986k/2 = 493k leaving £493k Per club = £246.5k
Its undoubtedly way more complicated than that, but you get the idea.
So, how do the conference pay for Wembley when it's two much smaller clubs ? This is is nuts. Thanks for the breakdown
|
|
faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
|
Post by faggotygas on Nov 6, 2015 15:32:37 GMT
Well yeah, if the theory about the hire of Wembley taking the lion's share of the revenue being correct. Wembley would have charged a fixed fee for the stadium hire, plus an addition for each tier & stand opened, or thereabouts. There would therefore have been a breakeven point, over which any revenue after taking out Admin and the conference's share would have been profit, or thereabouts.
So an attendance of 60,000 would have made a much higher profit per fan than 40,000.
For example - and these are entirely made up figures and percentages - let
ticket price per fan = £40 after tax Wembley base hire = £1m Per tier extra £50k Pier section extra £4k See ticket take = 6% Conference take = 50% of what's left
Eg1: Attendance 40,000
Ticket take = £1.6m See Ticket take = £96k leaving £1,504k Less wembley hire (3 tiers, 20 sections = 1m + 150k + 80k = £1,230k ) leaving £274k Conference take = 274k/2 = 137k leaving £137k Per club = £68.5k
Eg2: Attendance 60,000
Ticket take = £2.4m See Ticket take = £144k leaving £2,256k Less wembley hire (3 tiers, 30 sections = 1m + 150k + 120k = £1,270k ) leaving £986k Conference take = 986k/2 = 493k leaving £493k Per club = £246.5k
Its undoubtedly way more complicated than that, but you get the idea.
So, how do the conference pay for Wembley when it's two much smaller clubs ? This is is nuts. Thanks for the breakdown I reckon they must make a loss. its a loss-leader - prestige and publicity in exchange for money.
|
|
kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,278
|
Post by kingswood Polak on Nov 6, 2015 15:34:37 GMT
So, how do the conference pay for Wembley when it's two much smaller clubs ? This is is nuts. Thanks for the breakdown I reckon they must make a loss. its a loss-leader - prestige and publicity in exchange for money. It really doesn't make any sense at all. Ah well, same old stuff. Fans get stuffed, lower league teams get robbed. Modern football really is rotten. Nick Higgs said that conference teams couldn't even get information about sell on clause amounts of Lambert. An awful situation to be in. Treated like beggars.
|
|
kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,278
|
Post by kingswood Polak on Nov 6, 2015 15:38:21 GMT
So, how do the conference pay for Wembley when it's two much smaller clubs ? This is is nuts. Thanks for the breakdown I reckon they must make a loss. its a loss-leader - prestige and publicity in exchange for money. I think most would take the money over prestige and bragging rights, I would in anycase. I wish I didn't get so wound up by this stuff
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2015 15:48:47 GMT
I reckon they must make a loss. its a loss-leader - prestige and publicity in exchange for money. I think most would take the money over prestige and bragging rights, I would in anycase. I wish I didn't get so wound up by this stuff I wouldn't. Sport is about prestige, not money. If I wanted to cheer on money, I'd support an oil company instead of a football team.
|
|
kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,278
|
Post by kingswood Polak on Nov 6, 2015 15:53:00 GMT
I think most would take the money over prestige and bragging rights, I would in anycase. I wish I didn't get so wound up by this stuff I wouldn't. Sport is about prestige, not money. If I wanted to cheer on money, I'd support an oil company instead of a football team. So, let's get this right. A club like ours, who we keep being told are skint, you would turn down the money to have the perceived prestige and stay skint ? My mum used to call people like that " all top show but dirty knickers" doesn't directly translate to English but you get the drift. We could talk about the good old days when we go bankrupt eh, watching AFC Rovers. Prestige, my Arsenal lol
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2015 16:21:35 GMT
I wouldn't. Sport is about prestige, not money. If I wanted to cheer on money, I'd support an oil company instead of a football team. So, let's get this right. A club like ours, who we keep being told are skint, you would turn down the money to have the perceived prestige and stay skint ? My mum used to call people like that " all top show but dirty knickers" doesn't directly translate to English but you get the drift. We could talk about the good old days when we go bankrupt eh, watching AFC Rovers. Prestige, my Arsenal lol I'd sooner a cup/playoff final was played at Wembley than a cheaper alternative stadium, absolutely. (But semi finals should never be played there, in my opinion). The club's income is no business of mine, after all. Its got nothing to do with the cleanliness of my underwear though!
|
|
|
Post by Henbury Gas on Nov 6, 2015 17:43:52 GMT
Same old bone then another dig at the board Very defensive Henbury... Not a dig at the BoD just my opinion to which I believe I am entitled am I not? If you want to go down that road I believe one person is in charge of merchandising not the BoD so how can it be a dig at the BoD? Are you aware of any merchandise produced before the final that we made money on? Happy to be corrected... Are you aware that the retail shops have doubled the takings of last year so far this year ? Somebody is doing something right
|
|
Cheshiregas
Global Moderator
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,166
|
Post by Cheshiregas on Nov 6, 2015 18:17:40 GMT
Very defensive Henbury... Not a dig at the BoD just my opinion to which I believe I am entitled am I not? If you want to go down that road I believe one person is in charge of merchandising not the BoD so how can it be a dig at the BoD? Are you aware of any merchandise produced before the final that we made money on? Happy to be corrected... Are you aware that the retail shops have doubled the takings of last year so far this year ? Somebody is doing something right You're not answering the question nor retracting that it was an attack on the BoD but hey ho. Aren't we in a higher league than last season? Isn't that the way it works? I am glad to see that the shops are doing well and it is interesting that fans have been able to engage with some of the products going into the shop.
|
|
brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
No Buy . . . No Sell!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,293
|
Post by brizzle on Nov 6, 2015 19:49:40 GMT
I wouldn't. Sport is about prestige, not money. If I wanted to cheer on money, I'd support an oil company instead of a football team. So, let's get this right. A club like ours, who we keep being told are skint, you would turn down the money to have the perceived prestige and stay skint ? My mum used to call people like that " all top show but dirty knickers" doesn't directly translate to English but you get the drift. We could talk about the good old days when we go bankrupt eh, watching AFC Rovers. Prestige, my Arsenal lol Does that translate into English as ''all fur coat and no knickers?'' Just asking. I've lost my Polish to English dictionary.
|
|
|
Post by CountyGroundHotel on Nov 6, 2015 20:42:35 GMT
Are you aware that the retail shops have doubled the takings of last year so far this year ? Somebody is doing something right You're not answering the question nor retracting that it was an attack on the BoD but hey ho. Aren't we in a higher league than last season? Isn't that the way it works? I am glad to see that the shops are doing well and it is interesting that fans have been able to engage with some of the products going into the shop. Really? I'd have thought it would logically be much closer connected to the number of fans attending games. I'd be amazed if we'd doubled our crowds since last season. Normally you talk a lot of sense Terry but that is a shocker.
|
|
kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,278
|
Post by kingswood Polak on Nov 6, 2015 21:25:50 GMT
So, let's get this right. A club like ours, who we keep being told are skint, you would turn down the money to have the perceived prestige and stay skint ? My mum used to call people like that " all top show but dirty knickers" doesn't directly translate to English but you get the drift. We could talk about the good old days when we go bankrupt eh, watching AFC Rovers. Prestige, my Arsenal lol Does that translate into English as ''all fur coat and no knickers?'' Just asking. I've lost my Polish to English dictionary. It's about as close as it gets mate. Thanks
|
|
kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,278
|
Post by kingswood Polak on Nov 6, 2015 21:30:45 GMT
Just had to hijack this thread to say what a great game and superb performance from Salford. Watch the second goal and defending of their own, brilliant and against Notts county too
|
|
Peter Parker
Global Moderator
Richard Walker
You have been sentenced to DELETION!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,920
|
Post by Peter Parker on Nov 6, 2015 21:52:15 GMT
You're not answering the question nor retracting that it was an attack on the BoD but hey ho. Aren't we in a higher league than last season? Isn't that the way it works? I am glad to see that the shops are doing well and it is interesting that fans have been able to engage with some of the products going into the shop. Really? I'd have thought it would logically be much closer connected to the number of fans attending games. I'd be amazed if we'd doubled our crowds since last season. Normally you talk a lot of sense Terry but that is a shocker. Not sure if Terry was being sacrcastic or not. Generally we have been told by the club that winning and promotion/relegation are the only things that matter and anything else is insignificant. How much could we have made last season, in a promotion season if we had actually had stock?
|
|