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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 14:17:19 GMT
Good way to attract more investment... NOT Of course, an invester will ignore the fact that the club has been a black hole for cash and the director of finance didn't think to plan for one of 3 possible outcomes in 2014, and he'll walk away because people comment on the performance of the man who seemed to think that relegation was some kind of accident that only happened in the final 20 mins of the season. The same man who admitted in court that Rovers attempted to alter the terms of the contract with Sainsbury's. If I did that interview I would have asked if his salary was reduced due to relegation, or if he offered to take a reduction so that one or two decent and hard working people didn't have to be made redundant?
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Post by bluebeard on Aug 12, 2015 8:34:59 GMT
Good way to attract more investment... NOT Of course, an invester will ignore the fact that the club has been a black hole for cash and the director of finance didn't think to plan for one of 3 possible outcomes in 2014, and he'll walk away because people comment on the performance of the man who seemed to think that relegation was some kind of accident that only happened in the final 20 mins of the season. The same man who admitted in court that Rovers attempted to alter the terms of the contract with Sainsbury's. If I did that interview I would have asked if his salary was reduced due to relegation, or if he offered to take a reduction so that one or two decent and hard working people didn't have to be made redundant? It's probably better to acquire a badly run business because the price should be lower and the chances of turning things around quickly are definitely much higher. A new owner would probably bring in his own FD anyway. The fact that rovers asked for a contract amendment and Sainsburys refused it, is completely irrelevant to the court case. The fact that Watola is the one who admitted it, does not mean it was his idea to ask the question either. Without knowing his salary, contracted hours and actual remit, I don't understand why so much vitriol is being directed his way? I doubt very much that he is the club's highest paid employee and I believe he also works for GD with his other businesses. I did a couple of seasons as treasurer for my old rugby club. No payment for my time or reimbursement for my expenses and it was a pain in the arse. It was the wider committees responsibility to fund raise and forward plan but I was held personally responsible when I had to break the news that we couldn't afford a new scrummage machine. My point is that we have a part time, amateur management team. People can target individuals and whine all they like but nothing will change until we get someone prepared to invest serious money and appoint a competent full time CEO figure. So, as KP says, rather than go on and on about what we shouldn't do, it would be more interesting to read constructive posts with ideas on what we should do. Top to bottom reviews and detailed sustainable Business Plans (blah, blah, blah) are all well and good but you can't predict how a manager or a team will perform. We had a top half L1 crowd on Saturday watching bottom half L2 football. And so the cycle repeats, do we spend money we haven't got on improving the team to protect our income stream or do we wait until people find better value for money entertainment? Over the last 15 years, our managerial appointments, underperforming players and failed stadium projects have cost us millions. To have got so much wrong so many times is pretty damning but you can kind of see why we did what we did and how we got here. So, as long as our BOD can cover the MSP loan and they are prepared to take a hit on money they've already put in, we can attract new investment and we can put the recent past behind us. We have equity in our stadium and the relationship between the manager, players and fans is as good as I can remember. The glass is half full. I can understand those who are constantly looking to apportion blame for why it's half empty but it's all a bit pointless.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 9:05:26 GMT
Of course, an invester will ignore the fact that the club has been a black hole for cash and the director of finance didn't think to plan for one of 3 possible outcomes in 2014, and he'll walk away because people comment on the performance of the man who seemed to think that relegation was some kind of accident that only happened in the final 20 mins of the season. The same man who admitted in court that Rovers attempted to alter the terms of the contract with Sainsbury's. If I did that interview I would have asked if his salary was reduced due to relegation, or if he offered to take a reduction so that one or two decent and hard working people didn't have to be made redundant? It's probably better to acquire a badly run business because the price should be lower and the chances of turning things around quickly are definitely much higher. A new owner would probably bring in his own FD anyway. The fact that rovers asked for a contract amendment and Sainsburys refused it, is completely irrelevant to the court case. The fact that Watola is the one who admitted it, does not mean it was his idea to ask the question either. Without knowing his salary, contracted hours and actual remit, I don't understand why so much vitriol is being directed his way? I doubt very much that he is the club's highest paid employee and I believe he also works for GD with his other businesses. I did a couple of seasons as treasurer for my old rugby club. No payment for my time or reimbursement for my expenses and it was a pain in the arse. It was the wider committees responsibility to fund raise and forward plan but I was held personally responsible when I had to break the news that we couldn't afford a new scrummage machine. My point is that we have a part time, amateur management team. People can target individuals and whine all they like but nothing will change until we get someone prepared to invest serious money and appoint a competent full time CEO figure. So, as KP says, rather than go on and on about what we shouldn't do, it would be more interesting to read constructive posts with ideas on what we should do. Top to bottom reviews and detailed sustainable Business Plans (blah, blah, blah) are all well and good but you can't predict how a manager or a team will perform. We had a top half L1 crowd on Saturday watching bottom half L2 football. And so the cycle repeats, do we spend money we haven't got on improving the team to protect our income stream or do we wait until people find better value for money entertainment? Over the last 15 years, our managerial appointments, underperforming players and failed stadium projects have cost us millions. To have got so much wrong so many times is pretty damning but you can kind of see why we did what we did and how we got here. So, as long as our BOD can cover the MSP loan and they are prepared to take a hit on money they've already put in, we can attract new investment and we can put the recent past behind us. We have equity in our stadium and the relationship between the manager, players and fans is as good as I can remember. The glass is half full. I can understand those who are constantly looking to apportion blame for why it's half empty but it's all a bit pointless. Given the choice, I would invest in a business that was making money but had the infrastructure and capacity to grow. Watola deserves everything he gets, he's the director of finance that didn't even bother planning for one of three potential outcomes to a season. He should have been aware that question was coming in court, he wasn't. When this was reported, it felt to me that in the context of the case it was actually quite important as it could have been interpreted as suggesting that Rovers were not the innocent party who wanted nothing other than both sides to fulfill all of their contractual obligations. I don't think that Watola is part time. Take a look in the car park, that will give you an idea of how well he's remunerated. The answers have been discussed ad-nausium. We know that the FC spies and sycophants monitor this forum, so what's said is already known within the FC. The cycle repeats because the same mistakes are made. The whole point of a detailed plan is that you aren't in dire straights when the team and manager don't do as well as we all hope they will. The glass may be half full, but that half is being eroded at a rapid pace. Of course, the BoD could release a statement saying that they have written off their loans secured against the stadium, that they accept personal liability for the Wonga loan and that they will personally cover operating losses and legal costs, and that the stadium has been put into trust / the FC given assured tennancy in perpetuity for a peppercorn sum. Do you think any of that will happen?
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Post by bluebeard on Aug 12, 2015 9:39:29 GMT
It's probably better to acquire a badly run business because the price should be lower and the chances of turning things around quickly are definitely much higher. A new owner would probably bring in his own FD anyway. The fact that rovers asked for a contract amendment and Sainsburys refused it, is completely irrelevant to the court case. The fact that Watola is the one who admitted it, does not mean it was his idea to ask the question either. Without knowing his salary, contracted hours and actual remit, I don't understand why so much vitriol is being directed his way? I doubt very much that he is the club's highest paid employee and I believe he also works for GD with his other businesses. I did a couple of seasons as treasurer for my old rugby club. No payment for my time or reimbursement for my expenses and it was a pain in the arse. It was the wider committees responsibility to fund raise and forward plan but I was held personally responsible when I had to break the news that we couldn't afford a new scrummage machine. My point is that we have a part time, amateur management team. People can target individuals and whine all they like but nothing will change until we get someone prepared to invest serious money and appoint a competent full time CEO figure. So, as KP says, rather than go on and on about what we shouldn't do, it would be more interesting to read constructive posts with ideas on what we should do. Top to bottom reviews and detailed sustainable Business Plans (blah, blah, blah) are all well and good but you can't predict how a manager or a team will perform. We had a top half L1 crowd on Saturday watching bottom half L2 football. And so the cycle repeats, do we spend money we haven't got on improving the team to protect our income stream or do we wait until people find better value for money entertainment? Over the last 15 years, our managerial appointments, underperforming players and failed stadium projects have cost us millions. To have got so much wrong so many times is pretty damning but you can kind of see why we did what we did and how we got here. So, as long as our BOD can cover the MSP loan and they are prepared to take a hit on money they've already put in, we can attract new investment and we can put the recent past behind us. We have equity in our stadium and the relationship between the manager, players and fans is as good as I can remember. The glass is half full. I can understand those who are constantly looking to apportion blame for why it's half empty but it's all a bit pointless. Given the choice, I would invest in a business that was making money but had the infrastructure and capacity to grow. Watola deserves everything he gets, he's the director of finance that didn't even bother planning for one of three potential outcomes to a season. He should have been aware that question was coming in court, he wasn't. When this was reported, it felt to me that in the context of the case it was actually quite important as it could have been interpreted as suggesting that Rovers were not the innocent party who wanted nothing other than both sides to fulfill all of their contractual obligations. I don't think that Watola is part time. Take a look in the car park, that will give you an idea of how well he's remunerated. The answers have been discussed ad-nausium. We know that the FC spies and sycophants monitor this forum, so what's said is already known within the FC. The cycle repeats because the same mistakes are made. The whole point of a detailed plan is that you aren't in dire straights when the team and manager don't do as well as we all hope they will. The glass may be half full, but that half is being eroded at a rapid pace. Of course, the BoD could release a statement saying that they have written off their loans secured against the stadium, that they accept personal liability for the Wonga loan and that they will personally cover operating losses and legal costs, and that the stadium has been put into trust / the FC given assured tennancy in perpetuity for a peppercorn sum. Do you think any of that will happen? Point taken re investment choices, not too many football clubs tick that box though so best look elsewhere. I've spent most of my career studying other people's forecasts and I think you're a little naive. A budget gives you a target and a best worse case scenario but things never go exactly to plan. A football club is unique as your assets and customers come and go on an unpredictable basis. You can never guarantee the quality of your product and there are a multitude of variables affecting your income. It's easy to calculate a break even figure for one season but if income is reducing you need to seriously consider increasing expenditure to turn things around. Most football clubs do this and most football clubs lose money. Watola was probably surprised by the question in court because he thought it was irrelevant. It had no bearing on what was actually in the contract or the eventual outcome. I suspect that most qualified accountants with a number of executive posts, have very nice cars.
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Post by bluebeard on Aug 12, 2015 9:57:38 GMT
Oh and of course the BOD won't release a statement along those lines. They will keep their options open but I don't believe they will cut and run. My first job was with Barclays in the mid 80's, the clubs bankers at the time. I was selected along with a couple of gas head colleagues to go through cheques on a daily basis to pick out the players wages. The rest were bounced. We were playing in a run down rented stadium in front of crowds of less than 4000. I had seen the tail end of our 1970's glory years (everything is relative) and to me, that was the worst period in our history. Yes things could and should be so much better but Tony Watola is not the devil reincarnate.
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Post by fanatical on Aug 12, 2015 15:06:39 GMT
Given the choice, I would invest in a business that was making money but had the infrastructure and capacity to grow. Watola deserves everything he gets, he's the director of finance that didn't even bother planning for one of three potential outcomes to a season. He should have been aware that question was coming in court, he wasn't. When this was reported, it felt to me that in the context of the case it was actually quite important as it could have been interpreted as suggesting that Rovers were not the innocent party who wanted nothing other than both sides to fulfill all of their contractual obligations. I don't think that Watola is part time. Take a look in the car park, that will give you an idea of how well he's remunerated. The answers have been discussed ad-nausium. We know that the FC spies and sycophants monitor this forum, so what's said is already known within the FC. The cycle repeats because the same mistakes are made. The whole point of a detailed plan is that you aren't in dire straights when the team and manager don't do as well as we all hope they will. The glass may be half full, but that half is being eroded at a rapid pace. Of course, the BoD could release a statement saying that they have written off their loans secured against the stadium, that they accept personal liability for the Wonga loan and that they will personally cover operating losses and legal costs, and that the stadium has been put into trust / the FC given assured tennancy in perpetuity for a peppercorn sum. Do you think any of that will happen? Point taken re investment choices, not too many football clubs tick that box though so best look elsewhere. I've spent most of my career studying other people's forecasts and I think you're a little naive. A budget gives you a target and a best worse case scenario but things never go exactly to plan. A football club is unique as your assets and customers come and go on an unpredictable basis. You can never guarantee the quality of your product and there are a multitude of variables affecting your income. It's easy to calculate a break even figure for one season but if income is reducing you need to seriously consider increasing expenditure to turn things around. Most football clubs do this and most football clubs lose money. Watola was probably surprised by the question in court because he thought it was irrelevant. It had no bearing on what was actually in the contract or the eventual outcome. I suspect that most qualified accountants with a number of executive posts, have very nice cars.
Mr Watola's executive post is limited to finance director at Bristol Rovers. And he is secretary of Rovers companes and of GODs companies
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 15:20:51 GMT
Point taken re investment choices, not too many football clubs tick that box though so best look elsewhere. I've spent most of my career studying other people's forecasts and I think you're a little naive. A budget gives you a target and a best worse case scenario but things never go exactly to plan. A football club is unique as your assets and customers come and go on an unpredictable basis. You can never guarantee the quality of your product and there are a multitude of variables affecting your income. It's easy to calculate a break even figure for one season but if income is reducing you need to seriously consider increasing expenditure to turn things around. Most football clubs do this and most football clubs lose money. Watola was probably surprised by the question in court because he thought it was irrelevant. It had no bearing on what was actually in the contract or the eventual outcome. I suspect that most qualified accountants with a number of executive posts, have very nice cars.
Mr Watola's executive post is limited to finance director at Bristol Rovers. And he is secretary of Rovers companes and of GODs companies Has anybody checked that lately as I was told that GD has nothing to do with him any more.
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Post by bluebeard on Aug 12, 2015 16:29:50 GMT
Point taken re investment choices, not too many football clubs tick that box though so best look elsewhere. I've spent most of my career studying other people's forecasts and I think you're a little naive. A budget gives you a target and a best worse case scenario but things never go exactly to plan. A football club is unique as your assets and customers come and go on an unpredictable basis. You can never guarantee the quality of your product and there are a multitude of variables affecting your income. It's easy to calculate a break even figure for one season but if income is reducing you need to seriously consider increasing expenditure to turn things around. Most football clubs do this and most football clubs lose money. Watola was probably surprised by the question in court because he thought it was irrelevant. It had no bearing on what was actually in the contract or the eventual outcome. I suspect that most qualified accountants with a number of executive posts, have very nice cars.
Mr Watola's executive post is limited to finance director at Bristol Rovers. And he is secretary of Rovers companes and of GODs companies This doesn't mean he isn't paid for his work elsewhere though does it? Anyways, I know loads of people who are brilliant at their jobs and drive rubbish cars. Life's a bitch.
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Post by bluebeard on Aug 12, 2015 16:33:45 GMT
it's the OP who called Watola a saviour not the newspaper You missed the bit, "The man who made sure the club survived relegation and bounced back to League 2." He's my hero for that. No I didn't. It's just that I have more important things to worry about than a daft comment in a meaningless article in a crap newspaper. Carry on hating, if it helps.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 16:51:00 GMT
You missed the bit, "The man who made sure the club survived relegation and bounced back to League 2." He's my hero for that. No I didn't. It's just that I have more important things to worry about than a daft comment in a meaningless article in a crap newspaper. Carry on hating, if it helps. So you were incorrect and I can carry on worshiping him.
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Post by bluebeard on Aug 12, 2015 17:02:56 GMT
No I didn't. It's just that I have more important things to worry about than a daft comment in a meaningless article in a crap newspaper. Carry on hating, if it helps. So you were incorrect and I can carry on worshiping him. I think I will concede the debate at this point and respectfully refer you to Bamber's signature.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 17:18:15 GMT
So you were incorrect and I can carry on worshiping him. I think I will concede the debate at this point and respectfully refer you to Bamber's signature. I agree but you are better than that. Have a lovely evening before the rains come.
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Post by pressuredrop on Aug 12, 2015 18:21:45 GMT
To quote an ex-player who I spoke to recently 'Watola ought to be put up against a wall and shot for the damage he's done to this club.' Maybe a tad harsh but hard to disagree with the sentiment.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 20:39:24 GMT
I've spent most of my career studying other people's forecasts and I think you're a little naive. A budget gives you a target and a best worse case scenario but things never go exactly to plan. A football club is unique as your assets and customers come and go on an unpredictable basis. You can never guarantee the quality of your product and there are a multitude of variables affecting your income. Cheeky monkey I didn't say that a penny perfect projection should, or even could have been drafted, but a 'best available information' forcast should have been drawn up to give an idea of the cost the least desireable outcome. Watola admitted that he didn't do that, then trotted off and made some innocent people redundant. Now he has the neck to allow himself to be portrayed in a national rag as the saviour who sorted all the problems.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 21:51:21 GMT
I've spent most of my career studying other people's forecasts and I think you're a little naive. A budget gives you a target and a best worse case scenario but things never go exactly to plan. A football club is unique as your assets and customers come and go on an unpredictable basis. You can never guarantee the quality of your product and there are a multitude of variables affecting your income. Cheeky monkey I didn't say that a penny perfect projection should, or even could have been drafted, but a 'best available information' forcast should have been drawn up to give an idea of the cost the least desireable outcome. Watola admitted that he didn't do that, then trotted off and made some innocent people redundant. Now he has the neck to allow himself to be portrayed in a national rag as the saviour who sorted all the problems. Its beyond parody. I see the bloke who wrote the Reg Perrin saga has died. Given that he must have been orchestrating the behind the scenes management at Brfc things can only get better, surely?
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Post by fanatical on Aug 13, 2015 9:05:05 GMT
Mr Watola's executive post is limited to finance director at Bristol Rovers. And he is secretary of Rovers companes and of GODs companies Has anybody checked that lately as I was told that GD has nothing to do with him any more. please refer to Companies House
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Aug 13, 2015 9:21:39 GMT
Point taken re investment choices, not too many football clubs tick that box though so best look elsewhere. I've spent most of my career studying other people's forecasts and I think you're a little naive. A budget gives you a target and a best worse case scenario but things never go exactly to plan. A football club is unique as your assets and customers come and go on an unpredictable basis. You can never guarantee the quality of your product and there are a multitude of variables affecting your income. It's easy to calculate a break even figure for one season but if income is reducing you need to seriously consider increasing expenditure to turn things around. Most football clubs do this and most football clubs lose money. Watola was probably surprised by the question in court because he thought it was irrelevant. It had no bearing on what was actually in the contract or the eventual outcome. I suspect that most qualified accountants with a number of executive posts, have very nice cars. If you have studied people's forecasts you will know that your confidence in the information is also based on the ability of the person to know their business, understand historic values (132 years worth in BRFC case), understand the market they are in, work with the MD, CEO and/or other significant influencers, know the capex plans of the business together with any fixed/variable costs etc etc. Knowing their business a good FD/FC/CFO should be able to forecast with reasonable accuracy base/best/worst case scenarios. Of course I accept that you can never forecast for force majeure or unpredictable influences such as interest rates falling to unprecedented levels. To say that football is unique is to excuse ineptitude. I have met relationship directors in several banks including Barclays who were quite adept at managing the football relationships (one of who went on to be CEO of a Premier League club) and there is plenty of information available including Deloitte's own annual report on the football industry. Toni the Till acted as if relegation was force majeure but at the beginning of the season or even at the half year review it should have be a given that relegation is a possibility in any worst case scenario. Crowds are reasonably predictable whether you are doing well, in mid table mediocrity, or playing crap. (BRFC will invariably get between 5 - 8,000) and in a bad run you can sit down MD/FD and Manager and discuss options. Its not rocket science but obviously not possible at BRFC.
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Post by bluebeard on Aug 13, 2015 18:42:52 GMT
Point taken re investment choices, not too many football clubs tick that box though so best look elsewhere. I've spent most of my career studying other people's forecasts and I think you're a little naive. A budget gives you a target and a best worse case scenario but things never go exactly to plan. A football club is unique as your assets and customers come and go on an unpredictable basis. You can never guarantee the quality of your product and there are a multitude of variables affecting your income. It's easy to calculate a break even figure for one season but if income is reducing you need to seriously consider increasing expenditure to turn things around. Most football clubs do this and most football clubs lose money. Watola was probably surprised by the question in court because he thought it was irrelevant. It had no bearing on what was actually in the contract or the eventual outcome. I suspect that most qualified accountants with a number of executive posts, have very nice cars. If you have studied people's forecasts you will know that your confidence in the information is also based on the ability of the person to know their business, understand historic values (132 years worth in BRFC case), understand the market they are in, work with the MD, CEO and/or other significant influencers, know the capex plans of the business together with any fixed/variable costs etc etc. Knowing their business a good FD/FC/CFO should be able to forecast with reasonable accuracy base/best/worst case scenarios. Of course I accept that you can never forecast for force majeure or unpredictable influences such as interest rates falling to unprecedented levels. To say that football is unique is to excuse ineptitude. I have met relationship directors in several banks including Barclays who were quite adept at managing the football relationships (one of who went on to be CEO of a Premier League club) and there is plenty of information available including Deloitte's own annual report on the football industry. Toni the Till acted as if relegation was force majeure but at the beginning of the season or even at the half year review it should have be a given that relegation is a possibility in any worst case scenario. Crowds are reasonably predictable whether you are doing well, in mid table mediocrity, or playing crap. (BRFC will invariably get between 5 - 8,000) and in a bad run you can sit down MD/FD and Manager and discuss options. Its not rocket science but obviously not possible at BRFC. All true CG but the premiership is an entirely different world, we don't have a CEO and I bet Deloitte's outlook for lower league football is pretty grim. Rovers is a club, like many others, that lurches from crisis to crisis with cash flow shored up by its owners. Lets pretend that Watola has a flexible financial model that is updated regularly and takes into account probable, worst and best case scenarios. The end result is simply that the directors have a more accurate prediction of how deep and how soon they will next need to dig into their own pockets. As a club we could do much more on merchandising but this pales into insignificance when you occasionally land a Lambert deal or a Wembley appearance. We have undoubtedly neglected marketing etc because, as we all know, the 2 stadium projects have been the BoD's main focus for a number of years. I don't see too much fat in terms of costs other, of course, than the money that has already been wasted on overpaid, underperforming managers and players. The point I am making is that a conventional Business Plan is no use to anyone if you consistently fail to perform on the pitch and you don't know what league or what stadium you wil be playing in. Would redundancies have been avoided had we planned for relegation? No. Would we have still needed to borrow from MSP? Probably yes. The current BoD is responsible for a series of disastrous managerial appointments and they have incurred substantial debts in failed attempts to deliver a new stadium. It's as simple as that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 19:02:10 GMT
Yes we do. The chairman and the leading shareholder is enacting this role. Judge him by the results.
Wow, what a way to run a business. Sit back and take no action and just accept that shareholders will have to continuously fund a unsustainable business model....and that's good? Really? So you don't think that back of house affects front of house? Really?
Really? Don't you think if the BoD were not chasing a rainbow we would not have to had to borrow on those quite ridiculous terms?
Come on, they are responsible and it stinks
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Post by bluebeard on Aug 13, 2015 19:16:52 GMT
Hey I'm not trying to apologise for anyone I'm just telling it like it is. We don't have a CEO in the context of a full time football professional. Of course back of house affects front of house, they set the budget, appoint someone to spend it and rely on that individual to get the best out of what he is spending it on. Fail, fail, fail but you can't say they haven't tried to back the playing side financially. Yes the board are chasing a rainbow and when they finally accept that the pot of gold isn't there we might get a period of stability. And a Business Plan.
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