faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Mar 16, 2015 21:35:11 GMT
From my perspective, Clarke's awards are worth nought, England C caps for players that have already played League football are worth nought, and winning this division would be worth nought. If we have to suffer a Wembley play off final, I'd go and support the team. And if we won, it'd be worth nought. So when are achievements worth something then? What if were were in the Conference for 50 years, should we have a 50 year gap in the record books? Would any in league 2 be worth anything, or do we have to be at our 'natural' level? That can change over time, should each club audit their record books each season? What if we were above our natural level, should records count for more? Perhaps there could be some kind of weighting system - a game in league 2 counts 1/2, league 1 counts 1, championship counts 1.5 etc. How do we deal with the period when there was division 3 north and south?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 21:43:09 GMT
I'm not judging anyone, just stating the fact non league records do not trump or even equal league records. Clifton St Vincent's Rsrs 2 Bristol Rovers 26...big deal, get it? Ok, "if one is assessing" then. My point is, that scoreline would be a big deal, if we were in the same league as Clifton St Vincent Reserves (why did you choose a hypothetical club with such a long name? I'm tired), so could only attract roughly the same level of players as them, and were on the same budget. If you knew anything about local football rather than just Rovers you'd know that Clifton St Vincent's is anything but a hypothetical club and have a history just as illustrious as ours but at lower level which was precisely why I chose them... I've made my point about grasping at staws of equivalency and I'll rest.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 21:52:40 GMT
From my perspective, Clarke's awards are worth nought, England C caps for players that have already played League football are worth nought, and winning this division would be worth nought. If we have to suffer a Wembley play off final, I'd go and support the team. And if we won, it'd be worth nought. So when are achievements worth something then? What if were were in the Conference for 50 years, should we have a 50 year gap in the record books? Would any in league 2 be worth anything, or do we have to be at our 'natural' level? That can change over time, should each club audit their record books each season? What if we were above our natural level, should records count for more? Perhaps there could be some kind of weighting system - a game in league 2 counts 1/2, league 1 counts 1, championship counts 1.5 etc. How do we deal with the period when there was division 3 north and south? There is in the Football League, and then there's everything else. There are clubs for who winning the Conference would be an achievement, just as there are players for whom representing England C would be a highlight. Clubs with 95 year League histories and players with hundreds of league appearances already are underachieving in non-league football, even when they're winning.
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GasMacc1
Les Bradd
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,423
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Post by GasMacc1 on Mar 16, 2015 22:43:52 GMT
I was in the Broad Plain team that lost double figures (17, I think) to nil to Clifton St Vincents on the Downs in an early evening game in March/April 1986. I'd had to race down from Gloucester to make it in time. If it hadn't been for the travelling, I think we'd have got a draw.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 22:57:20 GMT
I was in the Broad Plain team that lost double figures (17, I think) to nil to Clifton St Vincents on the Downs in an early evening game in March/April 1986. I'd had to race down from Gloucester to make it in time. If it hadn't been for the travelling, I think we'd have got a draw. I played for them for about half a season when I was 18, it was like paying for a rugby club, great spirit, all about enjoying the afternoon and a few pints in the pub after, and a cracking skilful attacking side.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Mar 17, 2015 10:55:14 GMT
Ok, "if one is assessing" then. My point is, that scoreline would be a big deal, if we were in the same league as Clifton St Vincent Reserves (why did you choose a hypothetical club with such a long name? I'm tired), so could only attract roughly the same level of players as them, and were on the same budget. If you knew anything about local football rather than just Rovers you'd know that Clifton St Vincent's is anything but a hypothetical club and have a history just as illustrious as ours but at lower level which was precisely why I chose them... I've made my point about grasping at staws of equivalency and I'll rest. Jeez, I mean hypothetical in this context of this hypothetical game between them and Bristol Rovers, i.e. you could have chosen any team. I was not trying to claim that Clifton St Vincent's is imaginary or in any way besmirch their good name. Just make sure you use Yate Town next time to save my fingers (this is a joke by the way).
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Mar 17, 2015 10:59:07 GMT
So when are achievements worth something then? What if were were in the Conference for 50 years, should we have a 50 year gap in the record books? Would any in league 2 be worth anything, or do we have to be at our 'natural' level? That can change over time, should each club audit their record books each season? What if we were above our natural level, should records count for more? Perhaps there could be some kind of weighting system - a game in league 2 counts 1/2, league 1 counts 1, championship counts 1.5 etc. How do we deal with the period when there was division 3 north and south? There is in the Football League, and then there's everything else. There are clubs for who winning the Conference would be an achievement, just as there are players for whom representing England C would be a highlight. Clubs with 95 year League histories and players with hundreds of league appearances already are underachieving in non-league football, even when they're winning. You see what I mean though - with automatic relegation and promotion, the Conference is really just another division in the football pyramid, so should League 2 also not count towards records?
Should we only include games against full time professional sides? It seems to me that's where the real divide lies.
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Post by westbourne gas on Mar 17, 2015 19:29:11 GMT
Actually Topper my answer to the question you pose is yes. Let's forget everything that has happened while we are in this dreadful division. It is meaningless and embarrassing. This is a dreadful standard of football . Let's get away from this Conference non league culture. I heard our non league manager crowing on about 17games unbeaten. Really well how many have been draws. Far too many. We should have walked this division this season and we would have done with a much more experienced manager. As it is its going to be a struggle to win the league. Demand better we are Bristol Rovers not Alfreton Town.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Mar 17, 2015 19:32:49 GMT
Actually Topper my answer to the question you pose is yes. Let's forget everything that has happened while we are in this dreadful division. It is meaningless and embarrassing. This is a dreadful standard of football . Let's get away from this Conference non league culture. I heard our non league manager crowing on about 17games unbeaten. Really well how many have been draws. Far too many. We should have walked this division this season and we would have done with a much more experienced manager. As it is its going to be a struggle to win the league. Demand better we are Bristol Rovers not Alfreton Town. Why should we have walked it? We have a conference level budget, and being a conference team, can only attract conference level players. So why? On name alone?
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Bridgeman
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,549
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Post by Bridgeman on Mar 17, 2015 22:26:12 GMT
Actually Topper my answer to the question you pose is yes. Let's forget everything that has happened while we are in this dreadful division. It is meaningless and embarrassing. This is a dreadful standard of football . Let's get away from this Conference non league culture. I heard our non league manager crowing on about 17games unbeaten. Really well how many have been draws. Far too many. We should have walked this division this season and we would have done with a much more experienced manager. As it is its going to be a struggle to win the league. Demand better we are Bristol Rovers not Alfreton Town. Why should we have walked it? We have a conference level budget, and being a conference team, can only attract conference level players. So why? On name alone? Few if any teams have walked this league. Being Bristol Rovers give us no divine right to walk through it. There are still many ex league clubs in this division we'll do well not to remain in it next season with them.
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Post by mehewmagic on Mar 18, 2015 12:35:55 GMT
honestly
I think this thread just sums up the difference between this thread on 'paper' and in a pub.
I could almost guarantee this thread would be a good little discussion in a pub and not mistaken for a slanging match.
The way I read it is that everyone is right.
The OP is right because he's just pointing out a fact.
People who think that any records in non-lge are not comparable to FL records are right. They aren't being bertie big bollocks. they aren't saying 'we shouldn't be here', we are too big for this lge. They are merely stating the fact that a lge system sorts out how good you are and the 5th Tier is not really comparable to 2nd, 3rd and 4th.
People who say promotion/play-offs/long unbeaten runs are a good achievement are also correct. Ask Stockport fans if they would have liked to have a decent season in the Conf after they got relegated.
Life is not black and white. It is grey. And face to face conversation tends to be better than written.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Mar 18, 2015 14:50:46 GMT
honestly I think this thread just sums up the difference between this thread on 'paper' and in a pub. I could almost guarantee this thread would be a good little discussion in a pub and not mistaken for a slanging match. The way I read it is that everyone is right. The OP is right because he's just pointing out a fact. People who think that any records in non-lge are not comparable to FL records are right. They aren't being bertie big bollocks. they aren't saying 'we shouldn't be here', we are too big for this lge. They are merely stating the fact that a lge system sorts out how good you are and the 5th Tier is not really comparable to 2nd, 3rd and 4th. People who say promotion/play-offs/long unbeaten runs are a good achievement are also correct. Ask Stockport fans if they would have liked to have a decent season in the Conf after they got relegated. Life is not black and white. It is grey. And face to face conversation tends to be better than written. You have clearly never had a face to face conversation with me
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 15:17:11 GMT
Well I'm having a bloody lovely time.
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Post by mehewmagic on Mar 18, 2015 16:07:28 GMT
honestly I think this thread just sums up the difference between this thread on 'paper' and in a pub. I could almost guarantee this thread would be a good little discussion in a pub and not mistaken for a slanging match. The way I read it is that everyone is right. The OP is right because he's just pointing out a fact. People who think that any records in non-lge are not comparable to FL records are right. They aren't being bertie big bollocks. they aren't saying 'we shouldn't be here', we are too big for this lge. They are merely stating the fact that a lge system sorts out how good you are and the 5th Tier is not really comparable to 2nd, 3rd and 4th. People who say promotion/play-offs/long unbeaten runs are a good achievement are also correct. Ask Stockport fans if they would have liked to have a decent season in the Conf after they got relegated. Life is not black and white. It is grey. And face to face conversation tends to be better than written. You have clearly never had a face to face conversation with me i may fall asleep during the Lord Byron recitals
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brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
No Buy . . . No Sell!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,293
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Post by brizzle on Mar 18, 2015 16:16:09 GMT
I was in the Broad Plain team that lost double figures (17, I think) to nil to Clifton St Vincents on the Downs in an early evening game in March/April 1986. I'd had to race down from Gloucester to make it in time. If it hadn't been for the travelling, I think we'd have got a draw. Was that scoreline down to the influence of our old player Terry Oldfield I wonder, or had he moved on from Clifton St Vincent's by then? He was not the most talented player (and that's an understatement) that pulled on the quarters it's true, but he always struck me as Rovers through and through . . . and the crowd loved him for it. You can forgive a fair bit if you think that the player is pulling in the same direction as yourself, sadly it doesn't seem to happen so often nowadays. I think that it has something to do with scouting your own players.
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GasMacc1
Les Bradd
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,423
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Post by GasMacc1 on Mar 18, 2015 16:54:06 GMT
I was in the Broad Plain team that lost double figures (17, I think) to nil to Clifton St Vincents on the Downs in an early evening game in March/April 1986. I'd had to race down from Gloucester to make it in time. If it hadn't been for the travelling, I think we'd have got a draw. Was that scoreline down to the influence of our old player Terry Oldfield I wonder, or had he moved on from Clifton St Vincent's by then? I don't think so, Brizzle, as he would have been in his late forties by then. (It was the Downs League Premier Division, you know!). Terry Oldfield was a little before my time. I watched my first game at Eastville on 10th February 1970 (3:0 win over Luton Town)*. The mention of his name, though, does remind me of a joke that used to do the rounds, about the time in 1964 that Rovers went to Old Trafford to play an FA Cup 4th round tie against Manchester United. Apparently, as the Rovers players arrived at the ground, George Best turned to Bobby Charlton and said "Hey, look, there's Doug Hillard and Terry Oldfield"! * Stats verified by reference to Bristol Rovers F.C. A Complete Record 1883-1987.
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brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
No Buy . . . No Sell!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,293
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Post by brizzle on Mar 18, 2015 17:19:55 GMT
Was that scoreline down to the influence of our old player Terry Oldfield I wonder, or had he moved on from Clifton St Vincent's by then? I don't think so, Brizzle, as he would have been in his late forties by then. (It was the Downs League Premier Division, you know!). Terry Oldfield was a little before my time. I watched my first game at Eastville on 10th February 1970 (3:0 win over Luton Town)*. The mention of his name, though, does remind me of a joke that used to do the rounds, about the time in 1964 that Rovers went to Old Trafford to play an FA Cup 4th round tie against Manchester United. Apparently, as the Rovers players arrived at the ground, George Best turned to Bobby Charlton and said "Hey, look, there's Doug Hillard and Terry Oldfield"! * Stats verified by reference to Bristol Rovers F.C. A Complete Record 1883-1987. No, I was referring to the fact that Terry Oldfield managed Clifton St Vincent's after his playing career ended, besides playing for them in an earlier life. But I loved the joke by the way. But then again . . . was it a joke, or not? My favourite recollection of Terry (my goodness me, but he never stopped trying) was when I was stood in the North Enclosure and a wag stood nearby shouted out at him ''Oldfield, you're like a f***ing elephant in tights.'' Everyone laughed, including the player himself. How times change, eh? I would put Terry firmly alongside players such as Roger Frude and Dickie Plumb who were 100% committed to the cause, but possibly not quite up to it. Mind you, it could be quite a long list.
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aghast
David Williams
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 395
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Post by aghast on Mar 18, 2015 21:45:37 GMT
Southampton (in very recent history) and Man City (in relatively recent history) have been relegated to League 1. Both events are comparable to us being in the Conference. I happen to know one Southampton fan and two Man City fans. Not a huge sample, admittedly, but so be it. All are agreed (and tell me the fanbase felt the same), that promotion out of League 1 was not a minor event. Not something that should never be mentioned in the same breath as their major achievements in the past, and indeed since. In fact they regard getting out of their "league of shame" as highly significant, since it marked the beginning of their return to previous success. They never want to repeat the shame of relegation to that level, but loved the seasons they each had where they escaped.
Same for us. If we succeed this season, it shouldn't be categorised as something unworthy of comparison with previous success. It might be the most significant success we've ever had. Another season (or three) down here could be the end of us.
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Bridgeman
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,549
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Post by Bridgeman on Mar 18, 2015 21:48:49 GMT
Was that scoreline down to the influence of our old player Terry Oldfield I wonder, or had he moved on from Clifton St Vincent's by then? I don't think so, Brizzle, as he would have been in his late forties by then. (It was the Downs League Premier Division, you know!). Terry Oldfield was a little before my time. I watched my first game at Eastville on 10th February 1970 (3:0 win over Luton Town)*. The mention of his name, though, does remind me of a joke that used to do the rounds, about the time in 1964 that Rovers went to Old Trafford to play an FA Cup 4th round tie against Manchester United. Apparently, as the Rovers players arrived at the ground, George Best turned to Bobby Charlton and said "Hey, look, there's Doug Hillard and Terry Oldfield"! * Stats verified by reference to Bristol Rovers F.C. A Complete Record 1883-1987. I met someone in work to day who is a Manchester United supporter (and is a Manc) that was at that game with her father
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bs5
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 456
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Post by bs5 on Mar 18, 2015 22:33:57 GMT
If Rovers avoid defeat at Macclesfield they will equal a Club record of 17 away matches without defeat which was set in their promotion season of 1973/4..the run started in the 1972/3 season ... 7 April 1973 S****horpe Utd until 27 Jan 1974 Wrexham where they lost 1-0. I saw that defeat !
Another club record is just 5 away defeats in the promotion seasons of 1973/4 & 1990/1. With 3 away defeats can they break that record as well ? 89/90 season it was
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