syg
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,009
|
Post by syg on Jan 28, 2023 20:49:33 GMT
Unless they are potential future transfer targets I don't think we should now be overloading with loanees.
We need to be setting up for next season, throwing a few loanees into a squad who won't be here next season; I can't see how that is helpful.
|
|
JeffNZ
Administrator
Jimmy Morgan
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,464
|
Post by JeffNZ on Jan 28, 2023 21:04:31 GMT
I agree with syg. Using loanees feels like hiring a Porche and then bragging you have a Porche. All well and good while you're poncing around in the car but one day you have to give it back, what then? Hiring a car/using loanees is good as a short-term solution but not a long-term or sustainable option. Put the money into players who are committed to Rovers or into the academy to develop our own.
|
|
|
Post by lostinspace on Jan 28, 2023 21:16:29 GMT
Look where it got Yeovil!!
|
|
|
Post by Bath Gas on Jan 28, 2023 21:34:31 GMT
Last time I checked, most of the teams in our league had a similar amount of loanees as ourselves, the exception being Ipswich. This seems to be the way clubs in Leagues One and Two operate these days.
|
|
JeffNZ
Administrator
Jimmy Morgan
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,464
|
Post by JeffNZ on Jan 28, 2023 21:43:24 GMT
Last time I checked, most of the teams in our league had a similar amount of loanees as ourselves, the exception being Ipswich. This seems to be the way clubs in Leagues One and Two operate these days. That is probably the case BG so in my view that makes the whole system wrong. Seems the wealthy clubs can hoover up and control all the talented players preventing long-term advancement by clubs below them. If the system doesn't change then smaller clubs will not survive or simply become nursery clubs to the wealthy ones, which we're already seeing. Without wishing to come across as all conspiratorial, I suspect that's the master plan by those clubs at the top.
|
|
|
Post by Bath Gas on Jan 28, 2023 21:58:07 GMT
Last time I checked, most of the teams in our league had a similar amount of loanees as ourselves, the exception being Ipswich. This seems to be the way clubs in Leagues One and Two operate these days. That is probably the case BG so in my view that makes the whole system wrong. Seems the wealthy clubs can hoover up and control all the talented players preventing long-term advancement by clubs below them. If the system doesn't change then smaller clubs will not survive or simply become nursery clubs to the wealthy ones, which we're already seeing. Without wishing to come across as all conspiratorial, I suspect that's the master plan by those clubs at the top. Yes, the Premier League and all the money sloshing around has changed the game for everybody - and not always in a good way.
|
|
warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,436
|
Post by warehamgas on Jan 28, 2023 23:55:00 GMT
Last time I checked, most of the teams in our league had a similar amount of loanees as ourselves, the exception being Ipswich. This seems to be the way clubs in Leagues One and Two operate these days. That is probably the case BG so in my view that makes the whole system wrong. Seems the wealthy clubs can hoover up and control all the talented players preventing long-term advancement by clubs below them. If the system doesn't change then smaller clubs will not survive or simply become nursery clubs to the wealthy ones, which we're already seeing. Without wishing to come across as all conspiratorial, I suspect that's the master plan by those clubs at the top. I don’t think it’s conspiratorial at all Jeff. It’s more a concerted plan by the PL and PL2 (The Championship) to maintain their seat at the top table. They think we can’t see through what they’ve done. The FA have been complicit in this. Istr after earlier World Cups the FA saying the younger talent wasn’t coming through so they put in place the rules and regulations around training teenagers which were heavily weighted for the bigger clubs. Perhaps with the England teams relative success recently the FA will feel vindicated.The bigger clubs are able to hoover up all the best talent at the age of 13/14/15/16, keep the cream when they get to 17/18, sign them on decent pro contracts and then send them on loan and sell them when they don’t make it. During that time they loan them out multiple times letting other clubs develop them. The % of these youngsters who make it in the PL is low. I don’t think Marcus Stewart would ever have had the career he did had he come up through the youth system at a top club. With us he had games at a far more competitive level and he had a great career. We will not see BRFC a develop an England U-21 with the current system. I don’t blame Newcastle for saying they want to keep Elliot A with them and not send him out on loan. But after last season to not be playing regularly in competitive league action is a shame and will stop him developing as he would do playing regularly. It’s not just about wanting him here it’s an example of all that’s wrong with youngsters getting proper football. Part of the problem is the mindset of PL managers who are maybe convinced that training alongside good players in training sessions during the week is better than shipping them out to lower leagues. They do not have any other thought than what is best for my club. So Jeff, no conspiracy at all. More a concerted plan by the bigger clubs and the FA. Unfortunately the lower league clubs have been well and truly shafted. Nearly all parts of the football community, FA, PL, even pundits, journalists, TV, radio have little awareness of what’s happened and care even less. Hey ho! UTG!
|
|
|
Post by o2o2bo2ba on Jan 29, 2023 9:53:50 GMT
Agree with o p.
We can be lucky and strike gold now and again like last season with Connolly, Andersen and Taylor but if mismanaged and too many we end up with a ginelly Clarke salter and Colkette scenario..
I'm old fashioned and prefer to see proven players at this level brought in permanently.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2023 10:00:45 GMT
I think loanees should generally fall into three catagories;
- The loanee that is too good for you. - The potential permanent signing. - The injury cover.
From the outside looking in, it seems that B***** has tried to almost exclusively deal with the first one. That tends to be a difficult one to land because ultimately those players aren’t tested in senior football. I remember the first season back in L1 under DC, in the summer we signed Peter Hartley. Hartley was a very boring signing who only stayed one season. He was however a solid L1 centreback. Sometimes you have to sign boring. I think B***** is always looking to look like he’s a right clever clogs.
|
|
trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 1,484
|
Post by trymer on Jan 29, 2023 12:00:22 GMT
I have been wondering about bringing in so many loans for a while,it worked last season but when they go back you have to find loans as good or better to replace them,this season having been promoted Rovers needed better loans but it doesnt seem to have come off this time.
We complain about the tin pot trophy bringing in B teams but the loan system could make clubs like Rovers feeder clubs in the future,what happened to 'evolution not revolution' ? didnt that apply to bringing young players up through the ranks ?
I have never objected to experienced players like Craig coming in to steady the ship and help the youngsters,but some people say that they are 'journeymen' and dislike those signings.
|
|
warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,436
|
Post by warehamgas on Jan 29, 2023 14:24:17 GMT
Agree with o p. We can be lucky and strike gold now and again like last season with Connolly, Andersen and Taylor but if mismanaged and too many we end up with a ginelly Clarke salter and Colkette scenario.. I'm old fashioned and prefer to see proven players at this level brought in permanently. Yes. And of course these PL, Championship clubs have so many youngsters that when they are loaned out managers and clubs think they are signing PL- quality when of course what we’re signing are players who, 10 years ago, would likely have been with us. Nowadays these PL clubs are signing what we would have had. They can pay them more which attracts them but their route or progression in football education is probably less than they would have had with a league club. Every now and again you get an exceptional player like Elliot A, but that’s very unusual, most clubs usually get players who 2 years later are released because they won’t make it in the PL and by that time I’d say they are behind many players of the same age who’ve come up through the lower clubs. The FA and top PL clubs will point to the Fodens, Mounts, Rashford, Reece James and others who’ve come up through the PL academies but they are the exception. For everyone that comes through, 40/50 will have failed and will be released. Too much money has blinded the powers that be and has conflated the reality of what is happening. UTG!
|
|
|
Post by rideintothesun on Jan 29, 2023 17:33:40 GMT
Paul Trollope expressed scepticism about the loan system, and I think he was right. In my view, even with a view to a loan signing can have its shortfalls, as players perform differently when on loan and when they have the security of a long-term contract.
Little is gained if we effectively become a feeder club for the PL clubs, as Yeovil clearly illustrate.
Trollope actually apparently overcame his initial disdain for the loan market when he offloaded Steve Phillips because he decided he could get better goalkeepers by bringing in loanees. To my mind, this didn't work, and was a major factor in our subsequent deterioration.
The PL clubs are keen to get goalkeepers out on loan so they gain experience. But in the long-term, this doesn't work for the lower league club as they lack a solid foundation. Yet another illustration of endemic short-termism.
The best model is to take lower league players, develop them and then sell them on for a large profit, a la Peterborough. However, this requires an ability to think long-term and a willingness to accept the associated costs.
|
|
warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,436
|
Post by warehamgas on Jan 29, 2023 19:27:33 GMT
I dislike the way that lower league clubs have been let down by the greed of the FA and PL and have reservations about the loan system but BRFC have to use the system that’s in place. To fight against the system would be stupid as it would be us that suffers. We are not really like Yeovil who many seem to be using as an example of what not to do. Yeovil are a very extreme example. Difficult to attract players to the club because of where it is and at the time of their success and the loans many are talking about I believe there was a club policy under Gary J of requiring players to live within Yeovil and the area which made recruitment even harder. Instead of being held up as an example of how not to use loans Yeovil made a real success of using the loan system and well done to them. They over-achieved for many years before sinking back to perhaps their natural level. Yeovil have never had the financial support that other “small” clubs like Salford, Crawley originally, Stevenage, FGR, Rushden and Diamonds have had going back. And so had to find another way to succeed and they did, so well done to them. Loans were not the reason why Yeovil sank back, there were plenty of other reasons for their demise. As has been said Plymouth have plenty of loans, as do Bolton and their fans are pretty happy with their progress. Whatever, I hope JB is able to get some decent players in before Wednesday either permanently or on loan.
UTG!
|
|
|
Post by rideintothesun on Jan 29, 2023 19:58:19 GMT
That is probably the case BG so in my view that makes the whole system wrong. Seems the wealthy clubs can hoover up and control all the talented players preventing long-term advancement by clubs below them. If the system doesn't change then smaller clubs will not survive or simply become nursery clubs to the wealthy ones, which we're already seeing. Without wishing to come across as all conspiratorial, I suspect that's the master plan by those clubs at the top. Yes, the Premier League and all the money sloshing around has changed the game for everybody - and not always in a good way. Not in a good way at all. It is killing the game. The cup competitions are meaningless and a complete waste of time, to the point when I'm actually glad we go out at an early stage. Who wants to watch Man Utd put together at a cost of hundreds of millions play Reading, who have Andy Carroll upfront? Complete and utter waste of everybody's time. As a 'product', most PL games aren't even that attractive. Would you really want to watch Man City vs Bournemouth? So dull. The underdog plays like a non-league side used to play when playing a D1 side in the cup - camped in their own half, everybody behind the ball and try and win a set piece that you can score against. And the stars showboat once the game is over after 25 minutes. People fumed about the superleague proposals, but it is the logical conclusion when national leagues are so uncompetitive and so many games are essentially a foregone conclusion.
|
|
|
Post by Bath Gas on Jan 29, 2023 20:43:09 GMT
Yes, the Premier League and all the money sloshing around has changed the game for everybody - and not always in a good way. Not in a good way at all. It is killing the game. The cup competitions are meaningless and a complete waste of time, to the point when I'm actually glad we go out at an early stage. Who wants to watch Man Utd put together at a cost of hundreds of millions play Reading, who have Andy Carroll upfront? Complete and utter waste of everybody's time. As a 'product', most PL games aren't even that attractive. Would you really want to watch Man City vs Bournemouth? So dull. The underdog plays like a non-league side used to play when playing a D1 side in the cup - camped in their own half, everybody behind the ball and try and win a set piece that you can score against. And the stars showboat once the game is over after 25 minutes. People fumed about the superleague proposals, but it is the logical conclusion when national leagues are so uncompetitive and so many games are essentially a foregone conclusion. I'm not a fan of Premier League matches, really enjoyed the FA Cup ties today - football as it used to be. One positive I can think of, re. the money, is that the Premier League grounds, (and most Championship), are now safe places to watch football, with much improved facilities for supporters.
|
|
|
Post by rideintothesun on Jan 29, 2023 23:10:31 GMT
I have been wondering about bringing in so many loans for a while,it worked last season but when they go back you have to find loans as good or better to replace them,this season having been promoted Rovers needed better loans but it doesnt seem to have come off this time. We complain about the tin pot trophy bringing in B teams but the loan system could make clubs like Rovers feeder clubs in the future,what happened to 'evolution not revolution' ? didnt that apply to bringing young players up through the ranks ? I have never objected to experienced players like Craig coming in to steady the ship and help the youngsters,but some people say that they are 'journeymen' and dislike those signings. In Craig's case, I can see why - I never liked his attitude in the interviews I saw him give. Seemed to think the club was beneath him. Would much rather time to somebody like Kilgour who gets and respects the club.
|
|
|
Post by rideintothesun on Jan 29, 2023 23:43:27 GMT
Not in a good way at all. It is killing the game. The cup competitions are meaningless and a complete waste of time, to the point when I'm actually glad we go out at an early stage. Who wants to watch Man Utd put together at a cost of hundreds of millions play Reading, who have Andy Carroll upfront? Complete and utter waste of everybody's time. As a 'product', most PL games aren't even that attractive. Would you really want to watch Man City vs Bournemouth? So dull. The underdog plays like a non-league side used to play when playing a D1 side in the cup - camped in their own half, everybody behind the ball and try and win a set piece that you can score against. And the stars showboat once the game is over after 25 minutes. People fumed about the superleague proposals, but it is the logical conclusion when national leagues are so uncompetitive and so many games are essentially a foregone conclusion. I'm not a fan of Premier League matches, really enjoyed the FA Cup ties today - football as it used to be. One positive I can think of, re. the money, is that the Premier League grounds, (and most Championship), are now safe places to watch football, with much improved facilities for supporters. The PL was just about tolerable up until the Abramovich takeover of Chelsea. After that, the football became almost irrelevant. Up until that point, clubs like Man Utd had a financial advantage, but the league was at least reasonably competitive. Then it became utterly obscene. My main bugbear is more the impact that the PL has had on lower league football. We shouldn't be having to compete with clubs like Sheffield Wednesday and Sunderland, who are both top-tier clubs but who are in D1 because they gambled on PL football and lost. Our league is also impacted by the willingness of teams to basically be feeder clubs for the PL.
|
|
stargas
Gary Mabbutt
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 128
|
Post by stargas on Jan 30, 2023 5:24:51 GMT
I have been wondering about bringing in so many loans for a while,it worked last season but when they go back you have to find loans as good or better to replace them,this season having been promoted Rovers needed better loans but it doesnt seem to have come off this time. We complain about the tin pot trophy bringing in B teams but the loan system could make clubs like Rovers feeder clubs in the future,what happened to 'evolution not revolution' ? didnt that apply to bringing young players up through the ranks ? I have never objected to experienced players like Craig coming in to steady the ship and help the youngsters,but some people say that they are 'journeymen' and dislike those signings. In Craig's case, I can see why - I never liked his attitude in the interviews I saw him give. Seemed to think the club was beneath him. Would much rather time to somebody like Kilgour who gets and respects the club. I never got that impression when watching TC's interviews, I just remember he used to say "Yeah, No" in most sentences UTG
|
|
|
Post by Mrs V Smegma on Jan 30, 2023 8:29:11 GMT
In Craig's case, I can see why - I never liked his attitude in the interviews I saw him give. Seemed to think the club was beneath him. Would much rather time to somebody like Kilgour who gets and respects the club. I never got that impression when watching TC's interviews, I just remember he used to say "Yeah, No" in most sentences UTG More importantly I never got that impression from his performances on the pitch. Good solid consistent pro who I do think gave his all for the shirt and I think we let him go too early. Can’t think we would have conceded some of those goals at the weekend if he were in the side and the fact that he has been one of the first names on the teamsheet where er he has played says it all really. I never watch player interviews so unable to comment on those
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2023 9:06:35 GMT
I wouldn’t get too pious about the loan system by the way, Rovers have eight players out on loan.
|
|