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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2021 21:33:12 GMT
How much CL money did Rovers get last year? Just remind me what we had to do when Chelsea took Scott Sinclair? Their owner is worth billions, we had to go to tribunal where we were awarded half a jam sandwich and the bus fair home. That's the PL for you. Small amounts of money filtered down make no difference whatsoever, they just inflate players' wage demands. The PL has fundamentally altered our pyramid system. Or are you trying to suggest that clubs such as Mansfield, without major investment, could have 3 good seasons and get into the PL? As I posted,I think it's been established and agreed on that the Premier has much ugly greed amongst its ranks. Okay? The Premier clubs do at least play FA Cup games and that's a few bob for the likes of Rovers.Yes I know they don't take it seriously and the Cup ain't what it was. Did'nt we eventually get a few Bob from Scott Sinclair in follow on signings? Yes we got ripped off and Chelsea owners are assholes.But i think we got more than your "jam sandwich" claim. Think of it 'better the b******s you know' that at least keep the pyramid system alive,than the ESL mob ,that don't give a toss for the EFL or Prem. Reading,Swansea,Swindon spring to mind of clubs that got their act together and reached the top division.Burnley have been brilliant.In the EFL Harrogate,FGR and Salford have done brilliantly with Sunderland, Pompey and Ipswich contributing to smaller clubs coffers with their large fan base.The latter clubs mentioned may well get back to the top division. It looks harder for a club to make the top tier,but I don't think it impossible.Yes,clubs need some big investment.Not to mention one great 2nd tier season. The PL don't care about the EFL, it's distorted finances all the way through the professional game. Can't say I've wasted a huge amount of time looking at every bit of detail, but my understanding was that the clubs involved in the ESL would withdraw just from the CL, so would continue to put teams out in the PL and both domestic cup competitions. What changed exactly? 15 teams were guaranteed a place in the competition with 5 others qualifying each year. That isn't hugely different to what we have now, you can name the teams that are highly likely to fill the top 4~6 positions in the PL 8 seasons out of 10 and therefore, depending who wins what cups, put themselves in a position to gain entry into the CL. You can almost certainly name 6 of the teams that will make up the last 8, and from those 8 it won't be an outsider who makes it to the final or wins the thing. It's a closed shop already. This looks to me similar to the noise made a year ago when PL players were pocketing full wages whilst huge numbers of the population were coming to terms with furlough, there was a media witch hunt and it was 'PL Player Bad' for a few days. Had the tone from the media have been that this new competition secured the future for clubs and was a long overdue poke in the eye for the corrupt grey suited octogenarians who run the game, then the masses would be carrying the Chairmen of the 6 English clubs shoulder high.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2021 16:29:46 GMT
Now the PL retribution has begun. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56931186I'm at a total loss to understand the hysteria. Sky, the PL and TalkSport, who are a global partner of the PL, went into hyperoverdrive winding supporters up, telling them it would be the end of the world, and everybody marched straight to Frankenstein's castle, armed with a pitchfork. It may have been bad for the PL, but they care nothing about you or me, so why should a single fan give a flying frig about them? What material difference did it make to the average supporter if the PL have done to them what they did to the old First Division? Non-competitive? Sure, just like one of the Sheffield clubs or Burnley trying to compete with a club funded by the United Arab Emirates. Bring it on I say. Time for a change. PL is tedious anyway. It's been run for 28 season, on 25 occasions the title has been won by either Man U, Man City, Arsenal or Chelsea. Now that's non-competitive.
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Post by CabbagePatchBlues on May 1, 2021 9:34:06 GMT
The twelve breakaway teams that sought to form a proper football league back in the day caused a similar storm with their proposal. Funny old game. In 1960, Rovers raised a few eyebrows with their proposal for a north and south second division and, as I recall, three or four regional third and fourth divisions. As we were a second division side at the time I can only assume they considered this to be our easiest route to the top tier. We were relegated the following season :-). Even back then it must have appeared a regressive proposal, but in their defence they weren't to know the massive strides football was about to take via TV coverage.
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Post by lostinspace on May 8, 2021 11:28:12 GMT
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eppinggas
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Ian Alexander
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Post by eppinggas on May 8, 2021 11:48:02 GMT
That's either a fat finger, or a clever anagram of an acronym...
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2021 12:09:50 GMT
Like naughty school children 9 of the twelve have agreed to actually pay the body who have bullied them into not pursuing what's in their best financial interests.
Utterly spineless.
Take those 9 clubs out of the equation and the entire landscape is changed. They should have stood their ground and challenged the hollow arguments put forward by the PL, Sky etc.
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Post by holmesgas1 on May 8, 2021 21:42:43 GMT
Like naughty school children 9 of the twelve have agreed to actually pay the body who have bullied them into not pursuing what's in their best financial interests. Utterly spineless. Take those 9 clubs out of the equation and the entire landscape is changed. They should have stood their ground and challenged the hollow arguments put forward by the PL, Sky etc. I think you will find the hollow arguments were driven by fans, and thank goodness 9 clubs listened, though after being dragged kicking and screaming. Club's like Real Madrid wanted this to dig them out of the hole they made for themselves due to crazy over spending. It about time they were held to account.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2021 22:46:25 GMT
Like naughty school children 9 of the twelve have agreed to actually pay the body who have bullied them into not pursuing what's in their best financial interests. Utterly spineless. Take those 9 clubs out of the equation and the entire landscape is changed. They should have stood their ground and challenged the hollow arguments put forward by the PL, Sky etc. I think you will find the hollow arguments were driven by fans, and thank goodness 9 clubs listened, though after being dragged kicking and screaming. Club's like Real Madrid wanted this to dig them out of the hole they made for themselves due to crazy over spending. It about time they were held to account. It looked to me as if the fans reacted to what they were being fed by the PL / Sky etc. I can't see the difference between an anti-competitive PL and an anti-competitive ESL. I agree, the way that clubs like Chelsea, PSG, Real and Man City have bought success with over-spending and no consequences is wrong. The PL have done nothing about it, UEFA haven't stopped it, yet supporters are told to protest for more of the same. Edit. I see Bayern secured their 9th successive title yesterday. I do realise that's a slightly different subject, but it does demonstrate that there really isn't much competition at the top of Europe's domestic divisions anyway. Still waiting for a convincing argument, other than it was detrimental to the finances of the PL, Sky, UEFA.
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Post by holmesgas1 on May 9, 2021 16:25:05 GMT
I think you will find the hollow arguments were driven by fans, and thank goodness 9 clubs listened, though after being dragged kicking and screaming. Club's like Real Madrid wanted this to dig them out of the hole they made for themselves due to crazy over spending. It about time they were held to account. It looked to me as if the fans reacted to what they were being fed by the PL / Sky etc. I can't see the difference between an anti-competitive PL and an anti-competitive ESL. I agree, the way that clubs like Chelsea, PSG, Real and Man City have bought success with over-spending and no consequences is wrong. The PL have done nothing about it, UEFA haven't stopped it, yet supporters are told to protest for more of the same. Edit. I see Bayern secured their 9th successive title yesterday. I do realise that's a slightly different subject, but it does demonstrate that there really isn't much competition at the top of Europe's domestic divisions anyway. Still waiting for a convincing argument, other than it was detrimental to the finances of the PL, Sky, UEFA. It had nothing to do with what Sky, PL said. It was as simple as football fans do not believe there is a devine right for clubs to stay at the top, ie no relegation for the select few. Yes money rules at the moment, which is a shame, and I agree that PL and others have not done enough about that. Thats not to say we should role over and have our tummy tickled when someone proposes something even worse (ESL).
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2021 16:53:28 GMT
It looked to me as if the fans reacted to what they were being fed by the PL / Sky etc. I can't see the difference between an anti-competitive PL and an anti-competitive ESL. I agree, the way that clubs like Chelsea, PSG, Real and Man City have bought success with over-spending and no consequences is wrong. The PL have done nothing about it, UEFA haven't stopped it, yet supporters are told to protest for more of the same. Edit. I see Bayern secured their 9th successive title yesterday. I do realise that's a slightly different subject, but it does demonstrate that there really isn't much competition at the top of Europe's domestic divisions anyway. Still waiting for a convincing argument, other than it was detrimental to the finances of the PL, Sky, UEFA. It had nothing to do with what Sky, PL said. It was as simple as football fans do not believe there is a devine right for clubs to stay at the top, ie no relegation for the select few. Yes money rules at the moment, which is a shame, and I agree that PL and others have not done enough about that. Thats not to say we should role over and have our tummy tickled when someone proposes something even worse (ESL). I think we agree about the problem, we just seem to disagree about whether the ESL would make anything worse. I don't think it would. As stated above, and demonstrated, the PL isn't competitive, how many different clubs have ever won the thing? Arse won't be winning it any time soon, that makes it a competition between Liverpool, Utd and Citeh. Will this be Citeh's 3rd title in 4 years? There's 0 chance of Arsenal, Liverpool, Citeh, Chelsea, Spurs or Man Utd getting relegated from the PL. How precisely is it a fair competition when Burnley are asked to compete with an oil rich state funded club who ignore FFP rules? There was provision for teams to qualify to the ESL and do a 'Leicester'. Sure that's unlikely, but it's only ever happened once since the PL was forced on us. The anti ESL frenzy was whipped up by the media and people just joined in. The PL itself is what sent us down this path, where are the demonstrations against that?
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Post by holmesgas1 on May 10, 2021 8:53:36 GMT
It had nothing to do with what Sky, PL said. It was as simple as football fans do not believe there is a devine right for clubs to stay at the top, ie no relegation for the select few. Yes money rules at the moment, which is a shame, and I agree that PL and others have not done enough about that. Thats not to say we should role over and have our tummy tickled when someone proposes something even worse (ESL). I think we agree about the problem, we just seem to disagree about whether the ESL would make anything worse. I don't think it would. As stated above, and demonstrated, the PL isn't competitive, how many different clubs have ever won the thing? Arse won't be winning it any time soon, that makes it a competition between Liverpool, Utd and Citeh. Will this be Citeh's 3rd title in 4 years? There's 0 chance of Arsenal, Liverpool, Citeh, Chelsea, Spurs or Man Utd getting relegated from the PL. How precisely is it a fair competition when Burnley are asked to compete with an oil rich state funded club who ignore FFP rules? There was provision for teams to qualify to the ESL and do a 'Leicester'. Sure that's unlikely, but it's only ever happened once since the PL was forced on us. The anti ESL frenzy was whipped up by the media and people just joined in. The PL itself is what sent us down this path, where are the demonstrations against that? Well all I can say is you have a strange ethic that just because the Premier league is far from perfect, lets support the ESL which has worse rules, because its a way of wanting to harm the premier league. Two wrongs don't make a right. Luckily in this case people did not follow as sheep and support their club blindly and stood up against the crazy ESL proposal. Have more faith in human nature.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 9:59:40 GMT
I think we agree about the problem, we just seem to disagree about whether the ESL would make anything worse. I don't think it would. As stated above, and demonstrated, the PL isn't competitive, how many different clubs have ever won the thing? Arse won't be winning it any time soon, that makes it a competition between Liverpool, Utd and Citeh. Will this be Citeh's 3rd title in 4 years? There's 0 chance of Arsenal, Liverpool, Citeh, Chelsea, Spurs or Man Utd getting relegated from the PL. How precisely is it a fair competition when Burnley are asked to compete with an oil rich state funded club who ignore FFP rules? There was provision for teams to qualify to the ESL and do a 'Leicester'. Sure that's unlikely, but it's only ever happened once since the PL was forced on us. The anti ESL frenzy was whipped up by the media and people just joined in. The PL itself is what sent us down this path, where are the demonstrations against that? Well all I can say is you have a strange ethic that just because the Premier league is far from perfect, lets support the ESL which has worse rules, because its a way of wanting to harm the premier league. Two wrongs don't make a right. Luckily in this case people did not follow as sheep and support their club blindly and stood up against the crazy ESL proposal. Have more faith in human nature. You still haven't explained why the main arguments put forward to criticise the ESL were flawed. 1. It's anti-competitive. So is the PL. 2. It was all about greed. As if the PL isn't.
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Post by holmesgas1 on May 10, 2021 20:27:33 GMT
Well all I can say is you have a strange ethic that just because the Premier league is far from perfect, lets support the ESL which has worse rules, because its a way of wanting to harm the premier league. Two wrongs don't make a right. Luckily in this case people did not follow as sheep and support their club blindly and stood up against the crazy ESL proposal. Have more faith in human nature. You still haven't explained why the main arguments put forward to criticise the ESL were flawed. 1. It's anti-competitive. So is the PL. 2. It was all about greed. As if the PL isn't. You have it in one. The ESL was anti-competitive and was all about greed... Thus not supported by the vast majority of football fan. You and Perez definitely in the minority thinking it was good for football. Not sure I need to add to that argument, but look forward to you explaining how it is good for football, especially grass roots...
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 20:48:04 GMT
You still haven't explained why the main arguments put forward to criticise the ESL were flawed. 1. It's anti-competitive. So is the PL. 2. It was all about greed. As if the PL isn't. You have it in one. The ESL was anti-competitive and was all about greed... Thus not supported by the vast majority of football fan. You and Perez definitely in the minority thinking it was good for football. Not sure I need to add to that argument, but look forward to you explaining how it is good for football, especially grass roots... Where did I say it was good for anybody or anything? What I've said is that it's very little different to the PL and the CL and that the hysteria was whipped up by bodies with an interest. So, for at least the third time, can you please explain what basis there is for criticising the ESL that can't also be aimed with equal legitimacy at the PL and CL? 1. Anti competitive. Applies to both. 2. Greed. Applies to both. 3. Not a closed shop, a number of teams would have been able to qualify each season, as-per the CL and as-per relegation / promotion to and from the PL.
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Post by holmesgas1 on May 11, 2021 13:49:03 GMT
You have it in one. The ESL was anti-competitive and was all about greed... Thus not supported by the vast majority of football fan. You and Perez definitely in the minority thinking it was good for football. Not sure I need to add to that argument, but look forward to you explaining how it is good for football, especially grass roots... Where did I say it was good for anybody or anything? What I've said is that it's very little different to the PL and the CL and that the hysteria was whipped up by bodies with an interest. So, for at least the third time, can you please explain what basis there is for criticising the ESL that can't also be aimed with equal legitimacy at the PL and CL? 1. Anti competitive. Applies to both. 2. Greed. Applies to both. 3. Not a closed shop, a number of teams would have been able to qualify each season, as-per the CL and as-per relegation / promotion to and from the PL. As I said, two wrongs do not make a right, and I am not sure you are saying that Rovers due to their heritage should never be allowed to be relegated from the football league, to the detriment of clubs like Harrogate. Sounds great in principal, but wait, when the say City can't be relegated from the championship due to their financial backing. In sport relegation should be unpalatable option for all. ESL broke this fundamental rule. Yes some have more money, so less likely, but that's life.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2021 17:33:35 GMT
Where did I say it was good for anybody or anything? What I've said is that it's very little different to the PL and the CL and that the hysteria was whipped up by bodies with an interest. So, for at least the third time, can you please explain what basis there is for criticising the ESL that can't also be aimed with equal legitimacy at the PL and CL? 1. Anti competitive. Applies to both. 2. Greed. Applies to both. 3. Not a closed shop, a number of teams would have been able to qualify each season, as-per the CL and as-per relegation / promotion to and from the PL. As I said, two wrongs do not make a right, and I am not sure you are saying that Rovers due to their heritage should never be allowed to be relegated from the football league, to the detriment of clubs like Harrogate. Sounds great in principal, but wait, when the say City can't be relegated from the championship due to their financial backing. In sport relegation should be unpalatable option for all. ESL broke this fundamental rule. Yes some have more money, so less likely, but that's life. There's an equal chance that Citeh will drop out of the PL as them dropping out of the ESL. You haven't addressed the points at all.
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on May 12, 2021 8:34:09 GMT
As I said, two wrongs do not make a right, and I am not sure you are saying that Rovers due to their heritage should never be allowed to be relegated from the football league, to the detriment of clubs like Harrogate. Sounds great in principal, but wait, when the say City can't be relegated from the championship due to their financial backing. In sport relegation should be unpalatable option for all. ESL broke this fundamental rule. Yes some have more money, so less likely, but that's life. There's an equal chance that Citeh will drop out of the PL as them dropping out of the ESL. You haven't addressed the points at all. That is incorrect. Citeh could drop out of the Premier League, very unlikely but possible. The ESL was a closed shop for the top 11 European Clubs + spurs, where the prospect of relegation was removed. I'm with holmesgas (on this particular point).
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2021 9:49:21 GMT
There's an equal chance that Citeh will drop out of the PL as them dropping out of the ESL. You haven't addressed the points at all. That is incorrect. Citeh could drop out of the Premier League, very unlikely but possible. The ESL was a closed shop for the top 11 European Clubs + spurs, where the prospect of relegation was removed. I'm with holmesgas (on this particular point). I stand by the original statement. The top clubs won't be relegated from their domestic Leagues. The ESL wasn't a closed shop, teams would have qualified each year. My suspicion is that after several seasons of being beaten by qualifiers and finishing bottom they would have got fed up with Arse and replaced them though.
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Post by holmesgas1 on May 12, 2021 10:19:14 GMT
That is incorrect. Citeh could drop out of the Premier League, very unlikely but possible. The ESL was a closed shop for the top 11 European Clubs + spurs, where the prospect of relegation was removed. I'm with holmesgas (on this particular point). I stand by the original statement. The top clubs won't be relegated from their domestic Leagues. The ESL wasn't a closed shop, teams would have qualified each year. My suspicion is that after several seasons of being beaten by qualifiers and finishing bottom they would have got fed up with Arse and replaced them though. But using your example above, why should it be after a number of years. If any club is at the bottom they deserve to be relegated. Who ever they are.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2021 10:54:45 GMT
I stand by the original statement. The top clubs won't be relegated from their domestic Leagues. The ESL wasn't a closed shop, teams would have qualified each year. My suspicion is that after several seasons of being beaten by qualifiers and finishing bottom they would have got fed up with Arse and replaced them though. But using your example above, why should it be after a number of years. If any club is at the bottom they deserve to be relegated. Who ever they are. This was a competition for 'elite' clubs, in theory, with the opportunity for other clubs to qualify for the League each season. If a club were to cease to be 'elite' then it's reasonable to presume that their status would be in jeopardy. And in Citeh's case that would happen very quickly if outside funding were to be withdrawn. You may have the ghost of a point if the PL had drafted and enforced fit for purpose FFP rules, but they didn't, so they have an uncompetitive parade of a League which between 1996 and 2011 was won by only 3 different clubs, and now the same team have won it for 3 of the last 4 years, that team is directly funded by an oil rich country. How anybody can forward an argument for the status quo on the basis that the alternative is somehow 'anti competitive' is totally beyond me. In Citeh's defence, they spend huge sums on community projects. But this raises a different question. Bury, just around the corner from them, went out of business for a fraction of Citeh's annual community department budget, that surely highlights how grossly distorted football finances presently are, and that's a direct result of the PL and TV money. One more point. I'm not arguing for the ESL, my point is that the exact arguments used to get 'the angry mob' mobilised to protest against the ESL can equally be levelled against the PL.
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