Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2021 18:45:01 GMT
Our Last 4 Full-Time Managers Facts: Daryll Clarke - P246, W104, D56, L86 Win % = 42.3 Graham Coughlan - P56, W25, D18, L13 Win % = 44.6 Ben Garner - P34, W7, D10, L17, Win % = 20.6 Paul Tisdale - P14, W5, D1, L8, Win % = 35.7 Those facts don't lie. Garner did the damage and Tisdale is pulling it in the right direction but will it be enough before he cam make major changes to a poor squad.
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basel
Joined: May 2014
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Post by basel on Jan 23, 2021 19:31:39 GMT
Our Last 4 Full-Time Managers Facts: Daryll Clarke - P246, W104, D56, L86 Win % = 42.3 Graham Coughlan - P56, W25, D18, L13 Win % = 44.6 Ben Garner - P34, W7, D10, L17, Win % = 20.6 Paul Tisdale - P14, W5, D1, L8, Win % = 35.7 Those facts don't lie. Garner did the damage and Tisdale is pulling it in the right direction but will it be enough before he cam make major changes to a poor squad. In the scenario I was to bet,I would put my 'shilling' on PT II keeping us in the 3rd tier.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2021 20:22:41 GMT
Those facts don't lie. Garner did the damage and Tisdale is pulling it in the right direction but will it be enough before he cam make major changes to a poor squad. In the scenario I was to bet,I would put my 'shilling' on PT II keeping us in the 3rd tier. I share your positivity Basel.
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Post by Bamber Gashead on Jan 23, 2021 20:54:57 GMT
Our Last 4 Full-Time Managers Facts: Daryll Clarke - P246, W104, D56, L86 Win % = 42.3 Graham Coughlan - P56, W25, D18, L13 Win % = 44.6 Ben Garner - P34, W7, D10, L17, Win % = 20.6 Paul Tisdale - P14, W5, D1, L8, Win % = 35.7 Ben Garner was actually P33, W6, D10, L17.
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Post by carlts2020 on Jan 24, 2021 9:27:47 GMT
Our Last 4 Full-Time Managers Facts: Daryll Clarke - P246, W104, D56, L86 Win % = 42.3 Graham Coughlan - P56, W25, D18, L13 Win % = 44.6 Ben Garner - P34, W7, D10, L17, Win % = 20.6 Paul Tisdale - P14, W5, D1, L8, Win % = 35.7 Ben Garner was actually P33, W6, D10, L17. An interesting stat is comparing BG and PT league one records. BG had 26 league games, compare that against PT last 26 league one games and they are virtually identical (22 points play 23 points).
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basel
Joined: May 2014
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Post by basel on Jan 24, 2021 10:02:44 GMT
Ben Garner was actually P33, W6, D10, L17. An interesting stat is comparing BG and PT league one records. BG had 26 league games, compare that against PT last 26 league one games and they are virtually identical (22 points play 23 points). Why is this interesting?
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Post by carlts2020 on Jan 24, 2021 10:21:14 GMT
An interesting stat is comparing BG and PT league one records. BG had 26 league games, compare that against PT last 26 league one games and they are virtually identical (22 points play 23 points). Why is this interesting? It’s interesting as we hired a manager with a recent / medium term record no better than BG. Was it based on him being local and available? I think the board have a lot to answer for. Paul Cook said recently why is it only the manager that gets sacked. Interesting. If BG and PT are both sacked should Widdrington and Starnes fall on their swords?
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Post by Bamber Gashead on Jan 24, 2021 10:59:48 GMT
If you want to compare stats then DC scored fewer points than PT2 in his first 14 matches. W4, D3, L7 compared with W5, D1, L8 and that was before we played Braintree. Let's see if PT2 can pull off 5 wins on the bounce starting with Rochdale, given that we'll probably lose at Peterborough on Tuesday.
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Post by carlts2020 on Jan 24, 2021 11:02:07 GMT
If you want to compare stats then DC scored fewer points than PT2 in his first 14 matches. W4, D3, L7 compared with W5, D1, L8 and that was before we played Braintree. Let's see if PT2 can pull off 5 wins on the bounce starting with Rochdale, given that we'll probably lose at Peterborough on Tuesday. We backed Clarke and he repaid with a an amazing few years of success. I wonder how many called for his head in those early days?
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basel
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Post by basel on Jan 24, 2021 11:04:34 GMT
It’s interesting as we hired a manager with a recent / medium term record no better than BG. Was it based on him being local and available? I think the board have a lot to answer for. Paul Cook said recently why is it only the manager that gets sacked. Interesting. If BG and PT are both sacked should Widdrington and Starnes fall on their swords? We hired a manager with loads of experience and man who knows the West Country/South West. I don't think his one bad spell at MK Don's is of much concern. I don't believe it was based on him being 'local '. I think as long as Starmer and the rest of the Board are clever enough to learn from their mistakes,then fine. Fingers crossed they are.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jan 24, 2021 12:12:06 GMT
It’s interesting as we hired a manager with a recent / medium term record no better than BG. Was it based on him being local and available? I think the board have a lot to answer for. Paul Cook said recently why is it only the manager that gets sacked. Interesting. If BG and PT are both sacked should Widdrington and Starnes fall on their swords? Or you could argue that comparing win/loss records from small sample sizes without taking any account of the wider context is a pretty meaningless way to judge a manager's ability.
Managers don't have equal starting points and the context you inherit matters (for example, everyone recognises that Sol Campbell worked wonders keeping a disintegrating Macclesfield in the league but his win/loss record from that stint would be pretty bad). Garner inherited a stable squad that was 3rd in the league and that had been built on a number of decent if unspectacular seasons in League 1. He then plummetted that side down the table. Tisdale actually achieved success at MK Dons in winning them promotion and then struggled to establish the side at the higher level. It's ridiculous not to take that relative context into consideration. Tisdale may well have something to prove at this level - but Garner has proven absolutely nothing in the game at all at any level other than that he wasn't up to the job with us.
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Post by carlts2020 on Jan 24, 2021 13:32:27 GMT
It’s interesting as we hired a manager with a recent / medium term record no better than BG. Was it based on him being local and available? I think the board have a lot to answer for. Paul Cook said recently why is it only the manager that gets sacked. Interesting. If BG and PT are both sacked should Widdrington and Starnes fall on their swords? Or you could argue that comparing win/loss records from small sample sizes without taking any account of the wider context is a pretty meaningless way to judge a manager's ability.
Managers don't have equal starting points and the context you inherit matters (for example, everyone recognises that Sol Campbell worked wonders keeping a disintegrating Macclesfield in the league but his win/loss record from that stint would be pretty bad). Garner inherited a stable squad that was 3rd in the league and that had been built on a number of decent if unspectacular seasons in League 1. He then plummetted that side down the table. Tisdale actually achieved success at MK Dons in winning them promotion and then struggled to establish the side at the higher level. It's ridiculous not to take that relative context into consideration. Tisdale may well have something to prove at this level - but Garner has proven absolutely nothing in the game at all at any level other than that he wasn't up to the job with us.
There are many examples of managers that struggled in their first job and went on to be successful managers. Garner may or may not go on to better things. Only time will tell.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jan 24, 2021 15:51:34 GMT
Or you could argue that comparing win/loss records from small sample sizes without taking any account of the wider context is a pretty meaningless way to judge a manager's ability.
Managers don't have equal starting points and the context you inherit matters (for example, everyone recognises that Sol Campbell worked wonders keeping a disintegrating Macclesfield in the league but his win/loss record from that stint would be pretty bad). Garner inherited a stable squad that was 3rd in the league and that had been built on a number of decent if unspectacular seasons in League 1. He then plummetted that side down the table. Tisdale actually achieved success at MK Dons in winning them promotion and then struggled to establish the side at the higher level. It's ridiculous not to take that relative context into consideration. Tisdale may well have something to prove at this level - but Garner has proven absolutely nothing in the game at all at any level other than that he wasn't up to the job with us.
There are many examples of managers that struggled in their first job and went on to be successful managers. Garner may or may not go on to better things. Only time will tell. True - but it's not an argument that can be made based on anything he's actually done up to this point. It's merely a hunch. He was an unproven manager when he came to us and now he is a failed manager who demonstrably took his club significantly backwards.
The point is that you can make quite a decent case (though not a perfect one) for Tisdale based on what he's actually achieved in the game. All Garner has is a record of failure.
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Post by carlts2020 on Jan 25, 2021 6:54:35 GMT
There are many examples of managers that struggled in their first job and went on to be successful managers. Garner may or may not go on to better things. Only time will tell. True - but it's not an argument that can be made based on anything he's actually done up to this point. It's merely a hunch. He was an unproven manager when he came to us and now he is a failed manager who demonstrably took his club significantly backwards.
The point is that you can make quite a decent case (though not a perfect one) for Tisdale based on what he's actually achieved in the game. All Garner has is a record of failure.
Garners League one record based on his last / only 26 games is almost identical to Paul Tisdale. What makes Garner a failure and Tisdale successful / proven etc? PT has 23 points from last 26 games in league one and Garner has 22.
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basel
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Post by basel on Jan 25, 2021 8:17:13 GMT
True - but it's not an argument that can be made based on anything he's actually done up to this point. It's merely a hunch. He was an unproven manager when he came to us and now he is a failed manager who demonstrably took his club significantly backwards.
The point is that you can make quite a decent case (though not a perfect one) for Tisdale based on what he's actually achieved in the game. All Garner has is a record of failure.
Garners League one record based on his last / only 26 games is almost identical to Paul Tisdale. What makes Garner a failure and Tisdale successful / proven etc? PT has 23 points from last 26 games in league one and Garner has 22. Did'nt PT win promotion with MK Dons the season before. Look at his time with Team Bath and Grecians.Exeter City had a decent top half 3rd tier season with PT I think. Essentially I'm saying statistics are not necessarily the best way to judge a football manager.As you (or somebody) has suggested,by saying BG may go into "better things".Imo he won't,not as the 'Boss'. Statistics are part of the picture,but only part. A football managers psyche is a work of art. :-)
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Post by carlts2020 on Jan 25, 2021 8:36:30 GMT
Garners League one record based on his last / only 26 games is almost identical to Paul Tisdale. What makes Garner a failure and Tisdale successful / proven etc? PT has 23 points from last 26 games in league one and Garner has 22. Did'nt PT win promotion with MK Dons the season before. Look at his time with Team Bath and Grecians.Exeter City had a decent top half 3rd tier season with PT I think. Essentially I'm saying statistics are not necessarily the best way to judge a football manager.As you (or somebody) has suggested,by saying BG may go into "better things".Imo he won't,not as the 'Boss'. Statistics are part of the picture,but only part. A football managers psyche is a work of art. :-) I agree stats aren’t everything. I know I am in the minority because most fans had made their mind up last season but I still can’t see the benefit in swapping Garner for Tisdale. Tis has struggled recently and Garner was improving. Surely no one expected a 39 year old in his first job to be perfect and there was lots to improve on but using stats as well as player feedback and looking at the long term plan it baffles me. What happens if Tis loses the next 2 or 3? That’s 7 / 8 in a row which 99/100 means the sack. Garners Ppg from last season to this had risen considerably, he hadn’t lost to teams in the bottom half of the table (huge when avoiding relegation), was in the fa cup and began blooding young players in the trophy. It’s almost unanimously agreed his key skill is coaching but we sacked him 3 weeks after moving into the training ground. He gets blamed for poor recruitment yet we had a head of recruitment. In any other business the CEO would be sacked. If the servers and computers keep failing who gets sacked? Head of IT. If everyone thinks the recruitment failed how did then head of recruitment get promoted? We went out and hired a manager that had lost 8 out of 8 in hislast league one games. What was the thought process? What was the criteria? Who else was interviewed or approached? Starnes was constantly in the media when garner was sacked talking about “winning football matches”. We aren’t doing that and are in danger of being on our 3rd manager in 3 months.
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basel
Joined: May 2014
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Post by basel on Jan 25, 2021 8:58:22 GMT
Did'nt PT win promotion with MK Dons the season before. Look at his time with Team Bath and Grecians.Exeter City had a decent top half 3rd tier season with PT I think. Essentially I'm saying statistics are not necessarily the best way to judge a football manager.As you (or somebody) has suggested,by saying BG may go into "better things".Imo he won't,not as the 'Boss'. Statistics are part of the picture,but only part. A football managers psyche is a work of art. :-) I agree stats aren’t everything. I know I am in the minority because most fans had made their mind up last season but I still can’t see the benefit in swapping Garner for Tisdale. Tis has struggled recently and Garner was improving. Surely no one expected a 39 year old in his first job to be perfect and there was lots to improve on but using stats as well as player feedback and looking at the long term plan it baffles me. What happens if Tis loses the next 2 or 3? That’s 7 / 8 in a row which 99/100 means the sack. Garners Ppg from last season to this had risen considerably, he hadn’t lost to teams in the bottom half of the table (huge when avoiding relegation), was in the fa cup and began blooding young players in the trophy. It’s almost unanimously agreed his key skill is coaching but we sacked him 3 weeks after moving into the training ground. He gets blamed for poor recruitment yet we had a head of recruitment. In any other business the CEO would be sacked. If the servers and computers keep failing who gets sacked? Head of IT. If everyone thinks the recruitment failed how did then head of recruitment get promoted? We went out and hired a manager that had lost 8 out of 8 in hislast league one games. What was the thought process? What was the criteria? Who else was interviewed or approached? Starnes was constantly in the media when garner was sacked talking about “winning football matches”. We aren’t doing that and are in danger of being on our 3rd manager in 3 months. We did very well with another former Grecians Manager,one that had apparently flopped at Exeter. Gerry Francis. We play the clubs around or below us in February to March.I imagine this will decide what division we play in next season. Personally I think we'll stay up.
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Post by laughinggas on Jan 25, 2021 9:14:32 GMT
In answer to a question above, it is understood we interviewed no one else, apparently Tis impressed at a previous interview.
Am I correct in thinking three out of the last appointments were made with no other interviews taking place?
With regards to other points above, I suspect Garner is another coach who cannot manage. Paul Trollope is a previous example with us. Only had one other attempt at management at Cardiff. Could suggest GC is in this bracket as well. It is doubtful that GC or BG will get a managers job in EFL again.
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Post by carlts2020 on Jan 25, 2021 9:22:10 GMT
In answer to a question above, it is understood we interviewed no one else, apparently Tis impressed at a previous interview. Am I correct in thinking three out of the last appointments were made with no other interviews taking place? With regards to other points above, I suspect Garner is another coach who cannot manage. Paul Trollope is a previous example with us. Only had one other attempt at management at Cardiff. Could suggest GC is in this bracket as well. It is doubtful that GC or BG will get a managers job in EFL again. GC had a very good record with us and a poor record with Mansfield. We just hired a manager on that basis. I suspect both will get jobs in the EFL. GC based on gettin us to 4th and BG based on his age and the history of managers being poor in their first job but go onto succeed elsewhere. I sincerely hope they both work again. I don’t imagine either of them are well off financially and are currently unemployed which is very stressful and upsetting
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Post by davehuddscousin on Jan 25, 2021 9:38:33 GMT
Our Last 4 Full-Time Managers Facts: Daryll Clarke - P246, W104, D56, L86 Win % = 42.3 Graham Coughlan - P56, W25, D18, L13 Win % = 44.6 Ben Garner - P34, W7, D10, L17, Win % = 20.6 Paul Tisdale - P14, W5, D1, L8, Win % = 35.7 Or if you look at the above as points per game....... Daryll Clarke - 368 points out of 738 Points percentage = 49.9% Graham Coughlan - 93 points out of 168 Points percentage = 55.4% Ben Garner - 31 points out of 102 Points percentage = 30.4% Paul Tisdale - 16 points out of 42 Points percentage = 38.1% Both sets of stats show Coughlan was a better Manager than most gave him credit for ("boring football, no passing game"). It also gives me hope that with a fully fit squad Tisdale can keep us in this division in 2021 and build from there. Worth looking at these tables again when he's managed for 34 games.
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