eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
tempus horum
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 4,572 
Member is Online
|
Post by eppinggas on Jan 8, 2021 10:19:16 GMT
Not one opinion poll in the 6 months prior to the referendum had the margin of "stay" higher than 55%. Actual result 55.3% Stay, 44.7% Leave. It seems to me that there is a big "heart" Vs "mind" debate in Scotland. As has been said previously I cannot see how the SNP can put together a viable economic plan that passes scrutiny. So they have a choice, true independence with a substantial decline in their economic well being, or remain in the UK and argue for greater devolution of power and fiscal authority. One of the bigger barriers to rationality in all this currently resides in No 10.In my opinion Agreed - apart from the bit in bold... What do you mean exactly (asking in a nice way)? I thought Westminster had already devolved quite a lot of power? Boris is a pragmatist, and he won't want Scotland to leave the Union. I think this is pretty much as good as it gets for an 'Independent' Scotland. Maybe some further minor concessions to more devolved power? Last opinion poll I could find: yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/11/12/scottish-independence-yes-51-49-noSo although a lead, one which is likely to follow the previous referendum, with a significant swing to Remain at the ballot box. Hence "Remain" ahead in the betting. (Betting - where people put their money where their mouth is. Opinion polls - where an emotive quick response is required to a complicated question requiring more thought). IMHO. |
|
basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,061
|
Post by basel on Jan 8, 2021 13:03:26 GMT
The EU don't want another Greece,so Scotland are not welcome.
The EU only pretended to want Scotland as an EU country during the last few years, in an attempt to destabilise the UKs position in Brexit negotiations.
They want English money,not tales of Braveheart.
They can't afford another Greece.
|
|
oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,402
|
Post by oldie on Jan 8, 2021 13:36:47 GMT
It seems to me that there is a big "heart" Vs "mind" debate in Scotland. As has been said previously I cannot see how the SNP can put together a viable economic plan that passes scrutiny. So they have a choice, true independence with a substantial decline in their economic well being, or remain in the UK and argue for greater devolution of power and fiscal authority. One of the bigger barriers to rationality in all this currently resides in No 10.In my opinion Agreed - apart from the bit in bold... What do you mean exactly (asking in a nice way)? I thought Westminster had already devolved quite a lot of power? Boris is a pragmatist, and he won't want Scotland to leave the Union. I think this is pretty much as good as it gets for an 'Independent' Scotland. Maybe some further minor concessions to more devolved power? Last opinion poll I could find: yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/11/12/scottish-independence-yes-51-49-noSo although a lead, one which is likely to follow the previous referendum, with a significant swing to Remain at the ballot box. Hence "Remain" ahead in the betting. (Betting - where people put their money where their mouth is. Opinion polls - where an emotive quick response is required to a complicated question requiring more thought). IMHO. Epping On Johnson. I guess "pragmatism" is in the eye of the beholder. From my viewpoint he is a chancer who hooked his boat onto the genuine concerns of whole swathes of the UK population who have not seen the benefits of economic growth. Persuading them that being members of the EU was the real underlying causal factor for their situation, not (in no small part) the policies of the Party he represented. He did it and won, twice. Now let's see if his "pragmatism" resolves the issues for the people who voted for him |
|
eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
tempus horum
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 4,572
Member is Online
|
Post by eppinggas on Jan 8, 2021 15:29:22 GMT
Agreed - apart from the bit in bold... What do you mean exactly (asking in a nice way)? I thought Westminster had already devolved quite a lot of power? Boris is a pragmatist, and he won't want Scotland to leave the Union. I think this is pretty much as good as it gets for an 'Independent' Scotland. Maybe some further minor concessions to more devolved power? Last opinion poll I could find: yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/11/12/scottish-independence-yes-51-49-noSo although a lead, one which is likely to follow the previous referendum, with a significant swing to Remain at the ballot box. Hence "Remain" ahead in the betting. (Betting - where people put their money where their mouth is. Opinion polls - where an emotive quick response is required to a complicated question requiring more thought). IMHO. Epping On Johnson. I guess "pragmatism" is in the eye of the beholder. From my viewpoint he is a chancer who hooked his boat onto the genuine concerns of whole swathes of the UK population who have not seen the benefits of economic growth. Persuading them that being members of the EU was the real underlying causal factor for their situation, not (in no small part) the policies of the Party he represented. He did it and won, twice. Now let's see if his "pragmatism" resolves the issues for the people who voted for him Yes, let's see how it pans out. If the vaccine roll out is successful, he may recover his very dented public standing. He's set some very ambitious targets. If they are met, it might save his skin. If they fail to hit the targets, then he won't be leading the Conservative Party into the next election. I think we can agree on that anyway... |
|
oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,402
|
Post by oldie on Jan 8, 2021 15:49:06 GMT
Epping On Johnson. I guess "pragmatism" is in the eye of the beholder. From my viewpoint he is a chancer who hooked his boat onto the genuine concerns of whole swathes of the UK population who have not seen the benefits of economic growth. Persuading them that being members of the EU was the real underlying causal factor for their situation, not (in no small part) the policies of the Party he represented. He did it and won, twice. Now let's see if his "pragmatism" resolves the issues for the people who voted for him Yes, let's see how it pans out. If the vaccine roll out is successful, he may recover his very dented public standing. He's set some very ambitious targets. If they are met, it might save his skin. If they fail to hit the targets, then he won't be leading the Conservative Party into the next election. I think we can agree on that anyway... Absolutely Epping. But again I want him to succeed on the vaccination targets. Failure is not really an option. I want him to stay because people like him, like Trump, always get found out in the end. |
|
|
|
Post by Mrs V Smegma on Jan 8, 2021 19:33:04 GMT
The EU don't want another Greece,so Scotland are not welcome. The EU only pretended to want Scotland as an EU country during the last few years, in an attempt to destabilise the UKs position in Brexit negotiations. They want English money,not tales of Braveheart. They can't afford another Greece. Bas, how do you know what the EU do and do not want? How do you know what the EU's thoughts were in Brexit negotiations? Do you somehow have an inside track to EU thinking? And if you do, do they all think the same or do the 27 Nations each have their own unique perspective on this? I hope you have a more credible answer than "I read it in the tabloids". From where I sit, I think the EU genuinely wanted the best deal they could achieve - with the primary (and legitimate and understandable) aim of protecting the best interests of the member Nations. They'd have also preferred that the UK hadn't inflicted this madness on everyone. They are not rotters or bogeymen, and it is not them who are responsible for any negative consequences of Brexit. Those are entirely self-inflicted, and the Brexiteers need to own them. In my opinion of course. |
|
oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,402
|
Post by oldie on Jan 8, 2021 19:54:09 GMT
The EU don't want another Greece,so Scotland are not welcome. The EU only pretended to want Scotland as an EU country during the last few years, in an attempt to destabilise the UKs position in Brexit negotiations. They want English money,not tales of Braveheart. They can't afford another Greece. Bas, how do you know what the EU do and do not want? How do you know what the EU's thoughts were in Brexit negotiations? Do you somehow have an inside track to EU thinking? And if you do, do they all think the same or do the 27 Nations each have their own unique perspective on this? I hope you have a more credible answer than "I read it in the tabloids". From where I sit, I think the EU genuinely wanted the best deal they could achieve - with the primary (and legitimate and understandable) aim of protecting the best interests of the member Nations. They'd have also preferred that the UK hadn't inflicted this madness on everyone. They are not rotters or bogeymen, and it is not them who are responsible for any negative consequences of Brexit. Those are entirely self-inflicted, and the Brexiteers need to own them. In my opinion of course. Which is exactly why we all need to stop arguing about why we voted the way we did. The thing that matters now is measuring the outcome. Let's hope you and I, people like Rex on here are proven to be wrong. A circumstance that's a win for our country. If not, the wrath of Khan will be upon them. |
|
basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,061
|
Post by basel on Jan 8, 2021 20:11:51 GMT
Salmond having a go at Stergeon (Scottish Times).Maybe a threat to her leadership of the SNP.
I would enjoy the demise of the SNP and it would surely be good for the Union.
|
|
Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,074
|
Post by Rex on Jan 8, 2021 20:31:13 GMT
Salmond having a go at Stergeon (Scottish Times).Maybe a threat to her leadership of the SNP. I would enjoy the demise of the SNP and it would surely be good for the Union. The SNP is, by some distance, the most successful party in Scotland. I don't think they are anywhere near demise. |
|
oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,402
|
Post by oldie on Jan 8, 2021 20:35:23 GMT
Salmond having a go at Stergeon (Scottish Times).Maybe a threat to her leadership of the SNP. I would enjoy the demise of the SNP and it would surely be good for the Union. The SNP is, by some distance, the most successful party in Scotland. I don't think they are anywhere near demise. And A strange argument Rex from Basel who keeps banging the drum about Democracy. Perhaps he, like Trump, it's only democracy when it's an opinion he agrees with. Who knows |
|
basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,061
|
Post by basel on Jan 8, 2021 20:54:35 GMT
Salmond having a go at Stergeon (Scottish Times).Maybe a threat to her leadership of the SNP. I would enjoy the demise of the SNP and it would surely be good for the Union. The SNP is, by some distance, the most successful party in Scotland. I don't think they are anywhere near demise. Agreed Rexbut if Alex' accusations are proven right or there's much muck throwing,Stergeon may be removed. That may weaken the SNP. |
|
Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,074
|
Post by Rex on Jan 9, 2021 8:25:29 GMT
The SNP is, by some distance, the most successful party in Scotland. I don't think they are anywhere near demise. Agreed Rexbut if Alex' accusations are proven right or there's much muck throwing,Stergeon may be removed. That may weaken the SNP. Can't see it myself. Even if she is proven to have broken the ministerial code, we now know that means jack s*** in terms of being punished. |
|
eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
tempus horum
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 4,572
Member is Online
|
Post by eppinggas on Jan 10, 2021 10:15:59 GMT
Not one opinion poll in the 6 months prior to the referendum had the margin of "stay" higher than 55%. Actual result 55.3% Stay, 44.7% Leave. It seems to me that there is a big "heart" Vs "mind" debate in Scotland. As has been said previously I cannot see how the SNP can put together a viable economic plan that passes scrutiny. So they have a choice, true independence with a substantial decline in their economic well being, or remain in the UK and argue for greater devolution of power and fiscal authority.
One of the bigger barriers to rationality in all this currently resides in No 10. In my opinion So what actually is the SNP objective? Independence will not benefit the Scottish economy in the short/medium term... let alone deliver even a slim chance of joining the EU in the foreseeable future. I would conclude that the SNP sabre rattling is just to strengthen their negotiating power for further devolution. Would they even risk another referendum? They might even win it. Yikes! Where would that leave them? In a way does this not reflect the Brexit movement? A referendum was called that 'should' have delivered a Remain vote. Not a landslide, but a Remain vote nonetheless. Pretty much all 'logic' pointed to a Remain vote. Well that is what Cameron was told by the Westminster bubble and large swathes of the establishment. Shame they didn't bother to check with a large percentage of the electorate - the disenfranchised - people drinking in Spoons, shopping in Aldi, working on the factory floor etc etc. Well - certainly not those disenfranchised living and working away from the metropolitan boroughs. See results of the referendum. In theory the Remain winning vote would have, to a large degree, shut up the "Brexiteers", though I concede it definitely wouldn't have silenced them! And this would have given the UK a bit more power in re-negotiating our membership of the EU and potential reform within the EU. I am pretty sure that was 'the plan'. Cameron and the Remainers right royally bollocksed it up. Their campaign was an utter disaster (spilt milk, let's not go there). Very "Theresa Mayesque". Hence we are where we are. Onto the sunlit uplands. But no time soon IMHO. Happy to debate with you Oldie, and anyone else who can keep the debate civil. "Ranting" changes no-ones mind. |
|
|
|
Post by TheThinWhiteDuke on Jan 10, 2021 11:56:47 GMT
Exactly that epping.
But the story wouldn't have ended there as a Remain victory would have seen Campbell, Blaire, Major, Sourboury, Bourcow, Millar, Adonis and the rest of them, the moment the EU introduced any policy, any further movement towards centralisation that didn't exist on the day of the referendum arguing that democracy isn't a 'moment in time' and that as the landscape has changed, we MUST go back to the people to get this change endorsed.
As for Scotland. I'm not sure what Salmond is trying to achieve here. Looks like an attempt to topple Sturgeon, but to what end?
|
|
basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,061
|
Post by basel on Jan 10, 2021 12:12:43 GMT
Exactly that epping. But the story wouldn't have ended there as a Remain victory would have seen Campbell, Blaire, Major, Sourboury, Bourcow, Millar, Adonis and the rest of them, the moment the EU introduced any policy, any further movement towards centralisation that didn't exist on the day of the referendum arguing that democracy isn't a 'moment in time' and that as the landscape has changed, we MUST go back to the people to get this change endorsed. As for Scotland. I'm not sure what Salmond is trying to achieve here. Looks like an attempt to topple Sturgeon, but to what end? Nicola. 'Is that your sabre rattling Alex,or are you just pleased to see me'? |
|
oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,402
|
Post by oldie on Jan 10, 2021 14:25:02 GMT
It seems to me that there is a big "heart" Vs "mind" debate in Scotland. As has been said previously I cannot see how the SNP can put together a viable economic plan that passes scrutiny. So they have a choice, true independence with a substantial decline in their economic well being, or remain in the UK and argue for greater devolution of power and fiscal authority.
One of the bigger barriers to rationality in all this currently resides in No 10. In my opinion So what actually is the SNP objective? Independence will not benefit the Scottish economy in the short/medium term... let alone deliver even a slim chance of joining the EU in the foreseeable future. I would conclude that the SNP sabre rattling is just to strengthen their negotiating power for further devolution. Would they even risk another referendum? They might even win it. Yikes! Where would that leave them? In a way does this not reflect the Brexit movement? A referendum was called that 'should' have delivered a Remain vote. Not a landslide, but a Remain vote nonetheless. Pretty much all 'logic' pointed to a Remain vote. Well that is what Cameron was told by the Westminster bubble and large swathes of the establishment. Shame they didn't bother to check with a large percentage of the electorate - the disenfranchised - people drinking in Spoons, shopping in Aldi, working on the factory floor etc etc. Well - certainly not those disenfranchised living and working away from the metropolitan boroughs. See results of the referendum. In theory the Remain winning vote would have, to a large degree, shut up the "Brexiteers", though I concede it definitely wouldn't have silenced them! And this would have given the UK a bit more power in re-negotiating our membership of the EU and potential reform within the EU. I am pretty sure that was 'the plan'. Cameron and the Remainers right royally bollocksed it up. Their campaign was an utter disaster (spilt milk, let's not go there). Very "Theresa Mayesque". Hence we are where we are. Onto the sunlit uplands. But no time soon IMHO. Happy to debate with you Oldie, and anyone else who can keep the debate civil. "Ranting" changes no-ones mind. Epping "So what actually is the SNP objective? Independence will not benefit the Scottish economy in the short/medium term" That same question was applied to the Brexit Referendum, never answered (other than some obtuse and stupid points about Sovereignty). It's the same in Scotland, departing the UK makes zero sense. As we found out that does not mean that people will not vote for it. |
|
|
|
Post by TheThinWhiteDuke on Jan 10, 2021 14:51:08 GMT
So what actually is the SNP objective? Independence will not benefit the Scottish economy in the short/medium term... let alone deliver even a slim chance of joining the EU in the foreseeable future. I would conclude that the SNP sabre rattling is just to strengthen their negotiating power for further devolution. Would they even risk another referendum? They might even win it. Yikes! Where would that leave them? In a way does this not reflect the Brexit movement? A referendum was called that 'should' have delivered a Remain vote. Not a landslide, but a Remain vote nonetheless. Pretty much all 'logic' pointed to a Remain vote. Well that is what Cameron was told by the Westminster bubble and large swathes of the establishment. Shame they didn't bother to check with a large percentage of the electorate - the disenfranchised - people drinking in Spoons, shopping in Aldi, working on the factory floor etc etc. Well - certainly not those disenfranchised living and working away from the metropolitan boroughs. See results of the referendum. In theory the Remain winning vote would have, to a large degree, shut up the "Brexiteers", though I concede it definitely wouldn't have silenced them! And this would have given the UK a bit more power in re-negotiating our membership of the EU and potential reform within the EU. I am pretty sure that was 'the plan'. Cameron and the Remainers right royally bollocksed it up. Their campaign was an utter disaster (spilt milk, let's not go there). Very "Theresa Mayesque". Hence we are where we are. Onto the sunlit uplands. But no time soon IMHO. Happy to debate with you Oldie, and anyone else who can keep the debate civil. "Ranting" changes no-ones mind. Epping "So what actually is the SNP objective? Independence will not benefit the Scottish economy in the short/medium term" That same question was applied to the Brexit Referendum, never answered (other than some obtuse and stupid points about Sovereignty). It's the same in Scotland, departing the UK makes zero sense. As we found out that does not mean that people will not vote for it. Brexit has benefitted me financially, and I suspect many like me, it's supported by the export figures and those GDP figures I gave you. And for what it's worth, our economy has outpaced Germany's since we voted to walk away from that corrupt second coming of the USSR. Just because you don't agree with something or don't understand it doesn't mean that it makes no sense. I'm loving it. Especially as those who wouldn't accept the result of a fair ballot have got their panties up in such a bunch about the entire thing. It's priceless watching and reading every bitter, angry post, letter, interview from them. As for the SNP, it's separation from Westminster, regardless, at any cost. As I keep saying, ideologues are dangerous. But at this stage I don't know quite what Salmond is up to. |
|
oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,402
|
Post by oldie on Jan 10, 2021 15:37:05 GMT
Epping "So what actually is the SNP objective? Independence will not benefit the Scottish economy in the short/medium term" That same question was applied to the Brexit Referendum, never answered (other than some obtuse and stupid points about Sovereignty). It's the same in Scotland, departing the UK makes zero sense. As we found out that does not mean that people will not vote for it. Brexit has benefitted me financially, and I suspect many like me, it's supported by the export figures and those GDP figures I gave you. And for what it's worth, our economy has outpaced Germany's since we voted to walk away from that corrupt second coming of the USSR. Just because you don't agree with something or don't understand it doesn't mean that it makes no sense. I'm loving it. Especially as those who wouldn't accept the result of a fair ballot have got their panties up in such a bunch about the entire thing. It's priceless watching and reading every bitter, angry post, letter, interview from them. As for the SNP, it's separation from Westminster, regardless, at any cost. As I keep saying, ideologues are dangerous. But at this stage I don't know quite what Salmond is up to. Hyperbole and bluster I am afraid. The affect on our economy is yet to be felt. That started on January 1st. Also Can we stop shooting arrows at Remainers/Leavers? Please? It's pointless, it's done. Now we get to measure the outcome over the next decade or so. The first year or two will be clouded by the impact of this bloody pandemic. The ability of the government to stimulate the economy, Trump / Corbyn style by borrowing oodles hampered by the doubling of the national debt after 2010 and the £100s of billions they have had to borrow (rightly) to maintain some form of stability due to the consequences of the pandemic. Tough times ahead |
|
warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,833
|
Post by warehamgas on Jan 10, 2021 15:43:40 GMT
Agreed - apart from the bit in bold... What do you mean exactly (asking in a nice way)? I thought Westminster had already devolved quite a lot of power? Boris is a pragmatist, and he won't want Scotland to leave the Union. I think this is pretty much as good as it gets for an 'Independent' Scotland. Maybe some further minor concessions to more devolved power? Last opinion poll I could find: yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/11/12/scottish-independence-yes-51-49-noSo although a lead, one which is likely to follow the previous referendum, with a significant swing to Remain at the ballot box. Hence "Remain" ahead in the betting. (Betting - where people put their money where their mouth is. Opinion polls - where an emotive quick response is required to a complicated question requiring more thought). IMHO. Epping On Johnson. I guess "pragmatism" is in the eye of the beholder. From my viewpoint he is a chancer who hooked his boat onto the genuine concerns of whole swathes of the UK population who have not seen the benefits of economic growth. Persuading them that being members of the EU was the real underlying causal factor for their situation, not (in no small part) the policies of the Party he represented. He did it and won, twice. Now let's see if his "pragmatism" resolves the issues for the people who voted for him I think that’s about it. BJ with no great belief around the EU either way but saw an opportunity which he grasped. He now has 4 years, a but less, to start to show what he said is starting to happen. He will be judged on it as I’m sure he knows. I fully expect us to settle down into some kind of pattern and we will be “all right.” Whether we will do as well as we would have done will, of course, be the question. I have no doubt that BJ will say we are doing better than we would have done and I expect the press narrative to come out of government circles to show that we have. It will need 5, 10 or even 20 years to show the true result of Brexit which will allow everyone to show that they were correct, Remainers and Brexiteers. But for the next few years it’s over to you Boris to show you were right. |
|
warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,833
|
Post by warehamgas on Jan 10, 2021 15:55:47 GMT
Epping "So what actually is the SNP objective? Independence will not benefit the Scottish economy in the short/medium term" That same question was applied to the Brexit Referendum, never answered (other than some obtuse and stupid points about Sovereignty). It's the same in Scotland, departing the UK makes zero sense. As we found out that does not mean that people will not vote for it. Brexit has benefitted me financially, and I suspect many like me, it's supported by the export figures and those GDP figures I gave you. And for what it's worth, our economy has outpaced Germany's since we voted to walk away from that corrupt second coming of the USSR. Just because you don't agree with something or don't understand it doesn't mean that it makes no sense. I'm loving it. Especially as those who wouldn't accept the result of a fair ballot have got their panties up in such a bunch about the entire thing. It's priceless watching and reading every bitter, angry post, letter, interview from them. As for the SNP, it's separation from Westminster, regardless, at any cost. As I keep saying, ideologues are dangerous. But at this stage I don't know quite what Salmond is up to.As to what Salmond hopes to achieve it’s hard to say. I’m not sure that what’s going on has much to do with the SNP, devolution or anything particularly political. As regards leadership of the SNP, Salmond has done most of what he set out to achieve I would have thought. Although found innocent some of the stuff the guy had thrown at him must have been completely destructive for him personally and politically from which there is no come back. It must also have been personally humiliating and shameful for his family and loved ones. So, if that were the case, I see what’s happening far more about a personal agenda against Sturgeon. To destroy her in much the same way she effectively destroyed him as any kind of force. After what he went through and what his family must have suffered he may be acting way beyond the realms of Scottish politics and be determined to use his great skill as an orator and politician to take his case to the end. Either he or Sturgeon will be shown to have been lying, falsely representing what happened or whatever expression you want to use. Both of them can’t be right. I think this is now personal not political. |
|
