Rex
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Post by Rex on Dec 15, 2020 6:05:49 GMT
We have always had control of our own laws. I will be impressed if you can name one law that we have had imposed on us that our government did not want. There may have been some you didn't like (and I would genuinely be interested to know what they were), but none that have been forced upon us. Have you never wondered why we didn't join the Euro? Not quite sure how Britons were tricked into joining, we were trying to join for years before we were let in! Basel beat me to it as to the reason why we came out. Those are the reasons given and ask any Brexiteer why we came out and we get sovereignty, control of our waters for fishing, make our own laws, making our own deals and red-tape (that reason made me laugh a few weeks ago) and usually the war will come into someone’s reasons. Its crazy but that’s what is usually given. Add to that we had a PM, Cameron, who had won an election and thought he would walk the referendum. He made some astounding assertions about what the EU had ceded to him but when it came to it they hadn’t allowed any concessions. He had got diddly squat and tried to pretend he’d got a wonderful deal. The pro-Europe “team” treated the British public/ electorate shamefully, they were arrogant, complacent, relaxed, comfortable and took their win for granted and they came up against Johnson, who despite all his faults comes alive on a campaign. He does know how to work a crowd and get a message across. The sense of entitlement and lethargy of the establishment in the pro-EU was a reason why people turned against them. A small anecdote similar to Rex’s. Two of our oldest friends, left-leaning (far more than a centrist like me) said that they went into the campaign intending to vote for Remaining. Yet when they went into the booth they both changed their mind and voted Brexit. They were honest and said they felt that the EU would never produce a society they wanted. I just laughed but realised that if these Benn-ites could vote Brexit then so could others. It was stupid but the result of complacency on the part of the pro-EU side.Now those are the reasons I think why we came out of the EU. Not really worth it because I don’t believe we’ll suddenly become sovereign, more likely to be ignored. Do I trust BJ to legislate for a fairer more equal society? No way. Will having control of our waters be some kind of nirvana? Unlikely. So I don’t buy into any of the arguments about Brexit but I think most Brexiteers do which is quite scary because none of the reasons amount to anything. They’re certainly not enough to tear up all the economic advantages but that’s what people voted for. But let’s get it completed, trade on WTO terms and let the government govern and in 4 years time we can judge them. It’s too simplistic I know but I really can’t see an alternative without any more self-flagellation! UTG! Odd isn't it, that in the first referendum in the 70s, the left voted leave and the right voted remain, and now we have a complete about turn. One thing that has changed since thise times is the level of debate. In the run up to the 2016 referendum I saw a programme 9or may have been Youtube stuff)and there were people like Benn debating with Hattersley, and looking back to what we have now, it was heart warming stuff! Coherent arguments from both sides and not a bit of mud slinging or empty rhetoric. Even those who were very passionate in their speeches (eg Peter Shore) still came across as genuine and knowledgeable. When you are getting nostalgic over old politicians, you know things have got bad! |
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,109
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Post by basel on Dec 15, 2020 6:42:55 GMT
Basel beat me to it as to the reason why we came out. Those are the reasons given and ask any Brexiteer why we came out and we get sovereignty, control of our waters for fishing, make our own laws, making our own deals and red-tape (that reason made me laugh a few weeks ago) and usually the war will come into someone’s reasons. Its crazy but that’s what is usually given. Add to that we had a PM, Cameron, who had won an election and thought he would walk the referendum. He made some astounding assertions about what the EU had ceded to him but when it came to it they hadn’t allowed any concessions. He had got diddly squat and tried to pretend he’d got a wonderful deal. The pro-Europe “team” treated the British public/ electorate shamefully, they were arrogant, complacent, relaxed, comfortable and took their win for granted and they came up against Johnson, who despite all his faults comes alive on a campaign. He does know how to work a crowd and get a message across. The sense of entitlement and lethargy of the establishment in the pro-EU was a reason why people turned against them. A small anecdote similar to Rex’s. Two of our oldest friends, left-leaning (far more than a centrist like me) said that they went into the campaign intending to vote for Remaining. Yet when they went into the booth they both changed their mind and voted Brexit. They were honest and said they felt that the EU would never produce a society they wanted. I just laughed but realised that if these Benn-ites could vote Brexit then so could others. It was stupid but the result of complacency on the part of the pro-EU side.Now those are the reasons I think why we came out of the EU. Not really worth it because I don’t believe we’ll suddenly become sovereign, more likely to be ignored. Do I trust BJ to legislate for a fairer more equal society? No way. Will having control of our waters be some kind of nirvana? Unlikely. So I don’t buy into any of the arguments about Brexit but I think most Brexiteers do which is quite scary because none of the reasons amount to anything. They’re certainly not enough to tear up all the economic advantages but that’s what people voted for. But let’s get it completed, trade on WTO terms and let the government govern and in 4 years time we can judge them. It’s too simplistic I know but I really can’t see an alternative without any more self-flagellation! UTG! Odd isn't it, that in the first referendum in the 70s, the left voted leave and the right voted remain, and now we have a complete about turn. One thing that has changed since thise times is the level of debate. In the run up to the 2016 referendum I saw a programme 9or may have been Youtube stuff)and there were people like Benn debating with Hattersley, and looking back to what we have now, it was heart warming stuff! Coherent arguments from both sides and not a bit of mud slinging or empty rhetoric. Even those who were very passionate in their speeches (eg Peter Shore) still came across as genuine and knowledgeable. When you are getting nostalgic over old politicians, you know things have got bad! More Labour politicians use to have a healthy sense of patriotism. Less so these days. Is this fair/true? |
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Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,074
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Post by Rex on Dec 15, 2020 7:41:43 GMT
Odd isn't it, that in the first referendum in the 70s, the left voted leave and the right voted remain, and now we have a complete about turn. One thing that has changed since thise times is the level of debate. In the run up to the 2016 referendum I saw a programme 9or may have been Youtube stuff)and there were people like Benn debating with Hattersley, and looking back to what we have now, it was heart warming stuff! Coherent arguments from both sides and not a bit of mud slinging or empty rhetoric. Even those who were very passionate in their speeches (eg Peter Shore) still came across as genuine and knowledgeable. When you are getting nostalgic over old politicians, you know things have got bad!
Less so these days.
Is this fair/true?No I don't think it is. What I do think is true, and I think it is one of the saddest aspects of modern life in the UK, is that real patriotism has been replaced by tub thumping jingoism. |
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warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,835
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Post by warehamgas on Dec 15, 2020 9:07:55 GMT
It’s a confusion between jingoism, nationalism and believing those feelings are the same as the national interest. They’re not but as you alluded to Rex the political discourse used to be far higher years ago. Then it was conducted by those you mentioned and others on both sides who had some life experience in the middle of the 20th century. Now, the experience of most politicians is fairly limited to political stuff not life. The quality of politicians now reflect what they’ve experienced, and I’m afraid it’s not much.
UTG!
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oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,443
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Post by oldie on Dec 15, 2020 9:12:41 GMT
More Labour politicians use to have a healthy sense of patriotism.
Less so these days.
Is this fair/true? No I don't think it is. What I do think is true, and I think it is one of the saddest aspects of modern life in the UK, is that real patriotism has been replaced by tub thumping jingoism. Spot on Rex. Can I, If I may, pull you up on the left being anti EU but the opposite now. That is not the case in my opinion. In the post war period and upto the farce that was Michael Foot, what we would consider the far left had people in positions of power. They always rejected the EU as a pan national capitalist project that would restrict them in their "State control" of the means of production. Laughably this has morphed into an argument now expressed by the right and the Uber nationalists, like Basel. But that position changed with the coming of Blair and Brown who argued cogently for internationalism, and acted accordingly. After the defeat of Ed Milliband the election of the numb nut Corbyn saw Labour drift backwards to the views of the 70s. I would argue it was the pathetic leadership by Labour at the Referendum that cost us, Remain advocates, the vote. The argument to remain was left to the chuckle bros, Cameron & Osborne. They who had just inflicted terrible austerity on the very people who voted to leave. Because the the leave campaign was led by the very people from the same party, who managed to convince people that the pain inflicted upon them was the fault of the EU. Cameron and Osborne were sacrificed. A very British Coup indeed, by the evangelical followers of Friedrich Hayek. |
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Rex
Predictions League
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Posts: 3,074
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Post by Rex on Dec 15, 2020 9:20:44 GMT
No I don't think it is. What I do think is true, and I think it is one of the saddest aspects of modern life in the UK, is that real patriotism has been replaced by tub thumping jingoism. Spot on Rex. Can I, If I may, pull you up on the left being anti EU but the opposite now.
That is not the case in my opinion.In the post war period and upto the farce that was Michael Foot, what we would consider the far left had people in positions of power. They always rejected the EU as a pan national capitalist project that would restrict them in their "State control" of the means of production. Laughably this has morphed into an argument now expressed by the right and the Uber nationalists, like Basel. But that position changed with the coming of Blair and Brown who argued cogently for internationalism, and acted accordingly. After the defeat of Ed Milliband the election of the numb nut Corbyn saw Labour drift backwards to the views of the 70s. I would argue it was the pathetic leadership by Labour at the Referendum that cost us, Remain advocates, the vote. The argument to remain was left to the chuckle bros, Cameron & Osborne. They who had just inflicted terrible austerity on the very people who voted to leave. Because the the leave campaign was led by the very people from the same party, who managed to convince people that the pain inflicted upon them was the fault of the EU. Cameron and Osborne were sacrificed. A very British Coup indeed, by the evangelical followers of Friedrich Hayek. I meant it more as a generalisation that - at the time- Labour voters tended to be leavers and Tory voters the opposite. Certainly high profile figures within the party such as Benn and Shore were very much 'anti common market'. God knows what the media would make of genuine left wingers like those two nowadays. I would imagine social media would be full of stories that they were selling white children into slavery. |
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oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,443
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Post by oldie on Dec 15, 2020 9:46:39 GMT
Rex
"
God knows what the media would make of genuine left wingers like those two nowadays. I would imagine social media would be full of stories that they were selling white children into slavery."
😂😂😂
Indeed.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2020 10:23:44 GMT
This is priceless and sums Gove up to a "T". paulbernal.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/mr-gove/I was a school governor when Gove was education secretary. I've never known an Education Secretary so despised by teachers. None of them had a good word to say about him and he simply wouldn't listen to anyone who knew anything about education as he knew better - all based on his own privileged schooldays rather than any professional experience. He's also the same politician who had the wizard idea that in the middle of austerity we should all dip our hands in our pockets and buy the Queen a new fing yacht. My favourite descriptions of him on the netmums thread this generated are Gimp Faced Piss Wizard and Jizztrumpet. Spine chillingly evil and a complete gaslighter in my opinion.
Tory maggot, Michael Gove - a gross, self-important blowhard, who won't consider anyone else’s opinion. #MurdochRentBoy  |
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,109
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Post by basel on Dec 15, 2020 15:13:43 GMT
The French Fisherpeople are threatening to get very uppity in the event of WTO.
Dimitri Rogoff.President of Normandy Fisheries Committee.
"If we are deprived of our fishing grounds, we will not watch the British supply the French market.
There will therefore be blockages to ferries,since this mainly happens by ferries.And on that,we are quite clear and determined. "
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oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,443
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Post by oldie on Dec 15, 2020 15:16:16 GMT
The French Fisherpeople are threatening to get very uppity in the event of WTO. Dimitri Rogoff.President of Normandy Fisheries Committee. "If we are deprived of our fishing grounds, we will not watch the British supply the French market. There will therefore be blockages to ferries,since this mainly happens by ferries.And on that,we are quite clear and determined. " You forgot to add..."As quoted in the Sun" |
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,109
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Post by basel on Dec 15, 2020 15:22:40 GMT
The French Fisherpeople are threatening to get very uppity in the event of WTO. Dimitri Rogoff.President of Normandy Fisheries Committee. "If we are deprived of our fishing grounds, we will not watch the British supply the French market. There will therefore be blockages to ferries,since this mainly happens by ferries.And on that,we are quite clear and determined. " You forgot to add..."As quoted in the Sun" So it's not true Oldie? No blockades spoken of or planned? |
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,109
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Post by basel on Dec 15, 2020 18:08:55 GMT
Any guesses on what Johnson will concede so a deal is done with EU?
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oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,443
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Post by oldie on Dec 15, 2020 19:01:57 GMT
You forgot to add..."As quoted in the Sun" So it's not true Oldie? No blockades spoken of or planned? Ffs Basel, you cannot be serious, this is getting painful. Think of Rex, at least. |
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oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,443
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Post by oldie on Dec 15, 2020 19:13:16 GMT
Any guesses on what Johnson will concede so a deal is done with EU? I heard that we are all going to be subject to 12 lashes of the birch, as a form of national atonement for our collective sin. Initially, it is alleged, this was to be only applied to Leave Voters, but after a complaint to the Equalities Commission all UK nationals are to be included it is believed. In other developments and after the discovery of a new mutation of the Covid Virus, the Geneticists at Oxford University believe they have stumbled upon a new mutation within the Human Genome. Studies are ongoing as to the effects on reasoning capacity with those showing this mutation. Asked as to whether this could affect voting patterns, the Geneticists offered no comment. |
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warehamgas
Predictions League
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Posts: 1,835
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Post by warehamgas on Dec 16, 2020 9:27:32 GMT
The French Fisherpeople are threatening to get very uppity in the event of WTO. Dimitri Rogoff.President of Normandy Fisheries Committee. "If we are deprived of our fishing grounds, we will not watch the British supply the French market. There will therefore be blockages to ferries,since this mainly happens by ferries.And on that,we are quite clear and determined. " Whatever happens in the new year will probably follow an obvious pattern with a lot of tit for tat stuff. And it will likely be the British tourists in the Summer using ferries, if we ever get back to that, attempts to “sell” British caught fish in France and many other disrupting protests that will make Britain suffer. Experience has shown that when it comes to protests the French know how to do it properly. Will be interesting to see how the government /police react. If they do. UTG! |
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oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,443
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Post by oldie on Dec 16, 2020 9:50:27 GMT
The French Fisherpeople are threatening to get very uppity in the event of WTO. Dimitri Rogoff.President of Normandy Fisheries Committee. "If we are deprived of our fishing grounds, we will not watch the British supply the French market. There will therefore be blockages to ferries,since this mainly happens by ferries.And on that,we are quite clear and determined. " Whatever happens in the new year will probably follow an obvious pattern with a lot of tit for tat stuff. And it will likely be the British tourists in the Summer using ferries, if we ever get back to that, attempts to “sell” British caught fish in France and many other disrupting protests that will make Britain suffer. Experience has shown that when it comes to protests the French know how to do it properly. Will be interesting to see how the government /police react. If they do. UTG! Earl Grey anyone? A nice digestive? Meanwhile, Johnson stars in his new TV show |
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,109
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Post by basel on Dec 16, 2020 15:15:00 GMT
The French Fisherpeople are threatening to get very uppity in the event of WTO. Dimitri Rogoff.President of Normandy Fisheries Committee. "If we are deprived of our fishing grounds, we will not watch the British supply the French market. There will therefore be blockages to ferries,since this mainly happens by ferries.And on that,we are quite clear and determined. " Whatever happens in the new year will probably follow an obvious pattern with a lot of tit for tat stuff. And it will likely be the British tourists in the Summer using ferries, if we ever get back to that, attempts to “sell” British caught fish in France and many other disrupting protests that will make Britain suffer. Experience has shown that when it comes to protests the French know how to do it properly. Will be interesting to see how the government /police react. If they do. UTG! I wonder if NATO might wave the naughty finger at the French/EU too. That would be embarrassing for Ursula. |
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oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,443
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Post by oldie on Dec 16, 2020 15:47:38 GMT
Whatever happens in the new year will probably follow an obvious pattern with a lot of tit for tat stuff. And it will likely be the British tourists in the Summer using ferries, if we ever get back to that, attempts to “sell” British caught fish in France and many other disrupting protests that will make Britain suffer. Experience has shown that when it comes to protests the French know how to do it properly. Will be interesting to see how the government /police react. If they do. UTG! I wonder if NATO might wave the naughty finger at the French/EU too. That would be embarrassing for Ursula. I told you to stop it. France is in NATO, as is most of Europe. Now repeat after me "Basel must engage brain before posting" |
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,109
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Post by basel on Dec 16, 2020 16:30:43 GMT
I wonder if NATO might wave the naughty finger at the French/EU too. That would be embarrassing for Ursula. I told you to stop it. France is in NATO, as is most of Europe. Now repeat after me "Basel must engage brain before posting" In the scenario French fishing boats fished in British waters and with - more or less - Macrons blessing, then that's very naughty indeed.As members of NATO and the EU,it would be "embarrassing" for Ursula. Just a question I mean Macron is getting quite shirty. |
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Dec 16, 2020 16:48:27 GMT
Whatever happens in the new year will probably follow an obvious pattern with a lot of tit for tat stuff. And it will likely be the British tourists in the Summer using ferries, if we ever get back to that, attempts to “sell” British caught fish in France and many other disrupting protests that will make Britain suffer. Experience has shown that when it comes to protests the French know how to do it properly. Will be interesting to see how the government /police react. If they do. UTG! Earl Grey anyone? A nice digestive? Meanwhile, Johnson stars in his new TV show I take back all I say about Germans not getting British humour. Absolutely brilliant. |
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