warehamgas
Predictions League
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Post by warehamgas on Dec 14, 2020 13:02:03 GMT
oldie.
To answer your questions as well as I can:
What evidence? Well the regular pronouncements of Blair, Major, Gina Miller’s court case, the many media outlets who were continually questioning the idea of Brexit. I’ve no problem with them doing it, they have every right to do so in a democratic system, so I’m happy to see it happen. But to try and pretend that there were no factions fighting against Brexit is as disingenuous as pretending that there weren’t factions in government undermining us being in Europe prior to the referendum over the previous 30/40 years. I don’t really need to go searching for evidence.
And of course I agree with you about seeing Brexit as an act that I didn’t want to happen. I voted against it because I thought it better to stay in the EU, but not for the first time, I was in the minority.
My position now is that the majority spoke and we’ve had 4 and a half years to sort out a deal. It’s unlikely to happen so let’s go with WTO rules. I don’t necessarily expect others to agree!
UTG!
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oldie
Alfie Biggs
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Post by oldie on Dec 14, 2020 13:22:11 GMT
No I agree
But fighting legally against Brexit is fine, much in the same vein as fighting against Draconian laws allowing for the prejudicial treatment of ethnic minorities would be (is)
But that's not undermining, which is what Basel claimed, that's democracy, as you say.
I would say there is zero evidence of anyone undermining the government's negotiating position.
What has happened, is happening (but to a much lesser degree) is we keep calling out their lies, contradictions and rank stupidity.
So, Trump like, they squeal unfairness and make claims of some form of "deep state" blocking them.
Finally they call us arrogant.
Well if you take a position diametrically the opposite of stupidity...it might look that way.
Basel
You raised WTO, what are your thoughts on its net impact on the people of the UK?
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basel
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Post by basel on Dec 14, 2020 13:44:48 GMT
No I agree But fighting legally against Brexit is fine, much in the same vein as fighting against Draconian laws allowing for the prejudicial treatment of ethnic minorities would be (is) But that's not undermining, which is what Basel claimed, that's democracy, as you say. I would say there is zero evidence of anyone undermining the government's negotiating position. What has happened, is happening (but to a much lesser degree) is we keep calling out their lies, contradictions and rank stupidity. So, Trump like, they squeal unfairness and make claims of some form of "deep state" blocking them. Finally they call us arrogant. Well if you take a position diametrically the opposite of stupidity...it might look that way. Basel You raised WTO, what are your thoughts on its net |
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oldie
Alfie Biggs
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Posts: 2,402
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Post by oldie on Dec 14, 2020 14:20:39 GMT
No I agree But fighting legally against Brexit is fine, much in the same vein as fighting against Draconian laws allowing for the prejudicial treatment of ethnic minorities would be (is) But that's not undermining, which is what Basel claimed, that's democracy, as you say. I would say there is zero evidence of anyone undermining the government's negotiating position. What has happened, is happening (but to a much lesser degree) is we keep calling out their lies, contradictions and rank stupidity. So, Trump like, they squeal unfairness and make claims of some form of "deep state" blocking them. Finally they call us arrogant. Well if you take a position diametrically the opposite of stupidity...it might look that way. Basel You raised WTO, what are your thoughts on its net Basel You are supposed to add text summarising your thoughts Post edit. I meant to say net impact |
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basel
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Post by basel on Dec 14, 2020 14:25:27 GMT
Basel You are supposed to add text summarising your thoughts Yes. Well I hear from a few 'experts' we can expect some difficulties at first - perhaps especially with the pandemic in the mix - ,but after some time (how long?) things will settle down. Waiting to see. |
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oldie
Alfie Biggs
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Post by oldie on Dec 14, 2020 15:20:17 GMT
Yes. Well I hear from a few 'experts' we can expect some difficulties at first - perhaps especially with the pandemic in the mix - ,but after some time (how long?) things will settle down. Waiting to see. You mean as expert, the resident genius as Trade Minister, Alok Sharma? Currently voted the most boring man in Westminster he speaks like a written text, with no inflection. I heard him repeat what he has been told to say, as you have just done. Under the proposed UK schedules lodged at the WTO our average import tariff declines from 7.2% under CET, to 5.7%, which is a positive. However we will impose like for like tariffs on some items from the EU, like foodstuffs. For our export industry though, with 40% going to the EU currently, it's a potential disaster. Cars made here could be subject to a 10% tariff and agricultural / foodstuffs upto 40%. So cheaper imports (hooray) but whole segments of our export industry wiped. Still, the jobless can buy reduced supply of the current standard of food but more sub standard food from God knows where more cheaply with their unemployment benefit. Vote Leave, it's democracy, innit.😂😂 |
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basel
Joined: May 2014
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Post by basel on Dec 14, 2020 16:31:03 GMT
You mean as expert, the resident genius as Trade Minister, Alok Sharma? Currently voted the most boring man in Westminster he speaks like a written text, with no inflection. I heard him repeat what he has been told to say, as you have just done. Under the proposed UK schedules lodged at the WTO our average import tariff declines from 7.2% under CET, to 5.7%, which is a positive. However we will impose like for like tariffs on some items from the EU, like foodstuffs. For our export industry though, with 40% going to the EU currently, it's a potential disaster. Cars made here could be subject to a 10% tariff and agricultural / foodstuffs upto 40%. So cheaper imports (hooray) but whole segments of our export industry wiped. Still, the jobless can buy reduced supply of the current standard of food but more sub standard food from God knows where more cheaply with their unemployment benefit. Vote Leave, it's democracy, innit.😂😂 Thanks.I'll read your post again later when I have more time. |
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basel
Joined: May 2014
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Post by basel on Dec 14, 2020 16:34:59 GMT
Oldie.
Clearly you're very disappointed by the Brexit result,so much so I get the impression you have,or are searching for,a new system for our UK to decide such big decisions.
A reformed democracy or perhaps another system.
Care to share your thoughts?
Preferably without giving any of us nightmares.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
tempus horum
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Post by eppinggas on Dec 14, 2020 16:42:50 GMT
Imagine waking up every day, and getting into a lather about the result of a referendum 4 1/2 years ago. You can't change the result. You can't influence the future.
So just move on. Sunlit uplands? Probably not. But I'm not losing any sleep over it.
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oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,402
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Post by oldie on Dec 14, 2020 18:30:25 GMT
Imagine waking up every day, and getting into a lather about the result of a referendum 4 1/2 years ago. You can't change the result. You can't influence the future. So just move on. Sunlit uplands? Probably not. But I'm not losing any sleep over it. Nice try That's not what happens. And, if we cannot influence our future, what's the point of democracy? We might as well give up and accept prats like Trump or Putin, perhaps even Xi Jinping. No idea of your background Epping but I know my family ancestors did NOT argue, indeed fight, for that. |
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oldie
Alfie Biggs
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Post by oldie on Dec 14, 2020 18:39:31 GMT
Oldie. Clearly you're very disappointed by the Brexit result,so much so I get the impression you have,or are searching for,a new system for our UK to decide such big decisions. A reformed democracy or perhaps another system. Care to share your thoughts? Preferably without giving any of us nightmares. We can debate the pros and cons of various systems of democracy Basel, but it doesn't work properly if people are lazy,cynical or not capable of assimilating information. We can argue whether a referendum was the appropriate way of deciding something as momentous as leaving the EU. But our Sovereign Parliament decided it was and set it up. So I accept it obviously, as I do the result. Should we hold people to account for the case they made for leaving? Absolutely. |
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Shoveler
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Post by Shoveler on Dec 14, 2020 21:29:15 GMT
Bambi finally got his own thread after he resigned his Guzzler membership.
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oldie
Alfie Biggs
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Post by oldie on Dec 14, 2020 21:46:08 GMT
Bambi finally got his own thread after he resigned his Guzzler membership. Poetic Justice |
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Rex
Predictions League
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Post by Rex on Dec 14, 2020 21:56:26 GMT
Imagine waking up every day, and getting into a lather about the result of a referendum 4 1/2 years ago. You can't change the result. You can't influence the future. So just move on. Sunlit uplands? Probably not. But I'm not losing any sleep over it. No one is losing sleep, but on a forum thread about Brexit, people will talk about Brexit. If after every Rovers defeat, the threads were full of posts saying 'We lost , get over it' , the forum would be a rather dull place. |
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Rex
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Post by Rex on Dec 14, 2020 22:00:26 GMT
Yes. Well I hear from a few 'experts' we can expect some difficulties at first - perhaps especially with the pandemic in the mix - ,but after some time (how long?) things will settle down. Waiting to see. I'm sure it will settle down after a few years , business always finds a way, but we will be starting from a worse position, even those who engineered it admit that. Which begs the question, what was the fing point? |
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basel
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Post by basel on Dec 14, 2020 22:16:45 GMT
I'm sure it will settle down after a few years , business always finds a way, but we will be starting from a worse position, even those who engineered it admit that. Which begs the question, what was the fing point? Independence from Brussels.Control of our own laws and waters. Do what we want do. That sort of thing Rex.imo Not forgetting Britons were effectively tricked into joining the political thing. |
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Rex
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Post by Rex on Dec 14, 2020 23:21:49 GMT
Independence from Brussels.Control of our own laws and waters. Do what we want do. That sort of thing Rex.imo Not forgetting Britons were effectively tricked into joining the political thing. We have always had control of our own laws. I will be impressed if you can name one law that we have had imposed on us that our government did not want. There may have been some you didn't like (and I would genuinely be interested to know what they were), but none that have been forced upon us. Have you never wondered why we didn't join the Euro? Not quite sure how Britons were tricked into joining, we were trying to join for years before we were let in! |
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Dec 14, 2020 23:42:16 GMT
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Dec 14, 2020 23:56:29 GMT
Well not all the Goverment are 'useless' are they? I mean people like Gove are capable and he sits about 'war gaming' possibilities and what have you. Liz Truss seems to be doing a good job. A garden tea party hosted by Queen Elizabeth II may help bring a few bob in.😏 Haha!No,I'm not "taking the piss".😄 Just 'chatting'. Gove, the man from Murdoch. Download AttachmentThis is priceless and sums Gove up to a "T". paulbernal.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/mr-gove/I was a school governor when Gove was education secretary. I've never known an Education Secretary so despised by teachers. None of them had a good word to say about him and he simply wouldn't listen to anyone who knew anything about education as he knew better - all based on his own privileged schooldays rather than any professional experience. He's also the same politician who had the wizard idea that in the middle of austerity we should all dip our hands in our pockets and buy the Queen a new fing yacht. My favourite descriptions of him on the netmums thread this generated are Gimp Faced Piss Wizard and Jizztrumpet. Spine chillingly evil and a complete gaslighter in my opinion.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Dec 15, 2020 0:20:09 GMT
Independence from Brussels.Control of our own laws and waters. Do what we want do. That sort of thing Rex.imo Not forgetting Britons were effectively tricked into joining the political thing. We have always had control of our own laws. I will be impressed if you can name one law that we have had imposed on us that our government did not want. There may have been some you didn't like (and I would genuinely be interested to know what they were), but none that have been forced upon us. Have you never wondered why we didn't join the Euro? Not quite sure how Britons were tricked into joining, we were trying to join for years before we were let in! Basel beat me to it as to the reason why we came out. Those are the reasons given and ask any Brexiteer why we came out and we get sovereignty, control of our waters for fishing, make our own laws, making our own deals and red-tape (that reason made me laugh a few weeks ago) and usually the war will come into someone’s reasons. Its crazy but that’s what is usually given. Add to that we had a PM, Cameron, who had won an election and thought he would walk the referendum. He made some astounding assertions about what the EU had ceded to him but when it came to it they hadn’t allowed any concessions. He had got diddly squat and tried to pretend he’d got a wonderful deal. The pro-Europe “team” treated the British public/ electorate shamefully, they were arrogant, complacent, relaxed, comfortable and took their win for granted and they came up against Johnson, who despite all his faults comes alive on a campaign. He does know how to work a crowd and get a message across. The sense of entitlement and lethargy of the establishment in the pro-EU was a reason why people turned against them. A small anecdote similar to Rex’s. Two of our oldest friends, left-leaning (far more than a centrist like me) said that they went into the campaign intending to vote for Remaining. Yet when they went into the booth they both changed their mind and voted Brexit. They were honest and said they felt that the EU would never produce a society they wanted. I just laughed but realised that if these Benn-ites could vote Brexit then so could others. It was stupid but the result of complacency on the part of the pro-EU side. Now those are the reasons I think why we came out of the EU. Not really worth it because I don’t believe we’ll suddenly become sovereign, more likely to be ignored. Do I trust BJ to legislate for a fairer more equal society? No way. Will having control of our waters be some kind of nirvana? Unlikely. So I don’t buy into any of the arguments about Brexit but I think most Brexiteers do which is quite scary because none of the reasons amount to anything. They’re certainly not enough to tear up all the economic advantages but that’s what people voted for. But let’s get it completed, trade on WTO terms and let the government govern and in 4 years time we can judge them. It’s too simplistic I know but I really can’t see an alternative without any more self-flagellation! UTG! |
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