Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,074 
|
Post by Rex on Dec 13, 2020 13:24:17 GMT
Possibly, but in the absence of any other credible system( that I can think of anyway) it's about the best we can hope for. Benevolent dictatorships or monarchies normally end in tears. Said more in exasperation than belief. But seriously Rex how can some be so ill informed? What actually goes through their head? I know of a company owned by two brothers in law in Kent, without going into too much detail, their customer base is 100% in France (supplying local authorities there). They discovered a loophole and modify -in the crudest of ways- a bit of kit manufactured outside the EU to supply to these authorities. who needed to buy the goods from within the EU. One of the blokes not only voted for Brexit, he campaigned for it locally, he quite literally voted to put his own company out of business. Luckily for the other guy- who is a reasonably smart cookie-he was able to go back to his original business, and was staggeringly phlegmatic about it all, although he has declined to re-employ his brother in law! |
|
oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,402
|
Post by oldie on Dec 13, 2020 13:29:10 GMT
Said more in exasperation than belief. But seriously Rex how can some be so ill informed? What actually goes through their head? I know of a company owned by two brothers in law in Kent, without going into too much detail, their customer base is 100% in France (supplying local authorities there). They discovered a loophole and modify -in the crudest of ways- a bit of kit manufactured outside the EU to supply to these authorities. who needed to buy the goods from within the EU. One of the blokes not only voted for Brexit, he campaigned for it locally, he quite literally voted to put his own company out of business. Luckily for the other guy- who is a reasonably smart cookie-he was able to go back to his original business, and was staggeringly phlegmatic about it all, although he has declined to re-employ his brother in law! There you go. A good example of rank stupidity. The thing is, people have the right to be stupid, but not the right to impose the results of their stupidity on the rest of us. |
|
eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
tempus horum
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 4,572
|
Post by eppinggas on Dec 13, 2020 14:15:13 GMT
Go on then I'll contribute. The only alternative to democracy (with all it's flaws and in particular first past the post systems) is a totalitarian approach. No-one would ever vote for that. The only way that is achieved is by revolution. Force and violence. And ultimately the deaths of thousand, or hundreds of thousands, or millions. That is why I have no time for the far left and the far right. Now benevolent dictatorships... I quite like the idea of that. This would allow for long term planning, and would make sense. It's the "benevolent" part which is the sticky bit. What sane, altruistic, decent person would want to proclaim themselves a de-facto emperor? Ultimate power ultimately corrupts. Do we have some common ground Rex? Ha ha Has there ever been a benevolent dictatorship? One where the incumbent walks away when the job is done? No, the answer is education, if that's at all possible for some. Hang on - we might be nearing a patch of common ground here. Benevolent dictatorships are a 'good idea', but in reality cannot exist. TICK Education is important to make democracy work efficiently. TICK So... here's where it gets interesting. If you didn't pay attention at school... and have some 'odd' theories... how do you become 're-educated'? I would suggest that the James O'Brien technique - condescension, and attempts to humiliate anyone that doesn't subscribe to his own views - does not work. I listen to him quite a lot. I agree with quite a lot he has to say. But because he comes across as sanctimonious and opinionated, and refuses point blank to acknowledge any alternative view or concede any points, on balance, he just gets my back up. He hasn't changed my mind. IMHO he hasn't changed anyone's mind in 4 1/2 years of anti-Brexit ranting. (That's before we start to dive down his rabbit holes of "dark and mysterious forces at work in the UK" utter nonsense). In conclusion. If you want to change someone's opinion, quote reliable sources. Engage with polite debate. Condescend, and you're wasting your breath. And in fact you will embolden their perceived incorrect opinions. |
|
oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,402
|
Post by oldie on Dec 13, 2020 14:58:19 GMT
Ha ha Has there ever been a benevolent dictatorship? One where the incumbent walks away when the job is done? No, the answer is education, if that's at all possible for some. Hang on - we might be nearing a patch of common ground here. Benevolent dictatorships are a 'good idea', but in reality cannot exist. TICK Education is important to make democracy work efficiently. TICK So... here's where it gets interesting. If you didn't pay attention at school... and have some 'odd' theories... how do you become 're-educated'? I would suggest that the James O'Brien technique - condescension, and attempts to humiliate anyone that doesn't subscribe to his own views - does not work. I listen to him quite a lot. I agree with quite a lot he has to say. But because he comes across as sanctimonious and opinionated, and refuses point blank to acknowledge any alternative view or concede any points, on balance, he just gets my back up. He hasn't changed my mind. IMHO he hasn't changed anyone's mind in 4 1/2 years of anti-Brexit ranting. (That's before we start to dive down his rabbit holes of "dark and mysterious forces at work in the UK" utter nonsense). In conclusion. If you want to change someone's opinion, quote reliable sources. Engage with polite debate. Condescend, and you're wasting your breath. And in fact you will embolden their perceived incorrect opinions. Well yes. But O'Brien is on air to attract listeners, it's not a serious debate. He encourages numb nuts to call in and take ridiculous positions and allows them to humiliate themselves. Let's be honest it's not hard is it. He gets the ratings as a result. No it only gets interesting when the opposite sides engage based upon the actual facts. You brought up O'Brien and his ardent remainer stance. So let's explore the issues (for what it's worth and not that it matters now I suspect) on Brexit. It's 4.5 years since the referendum. During that period I have not read one piece of analysis that shows me the UK will be better off economically for leaving the single market. Ah, but, I hear leavers say, it wasn't just about the economics, happy to sacrifice that for "control", "Sovereignty" not have rules foisted upon us. So, ok I say, let's discuss because if true it's a valid point. Then name one rule that has adversely affected you personally, I ask. Answer? Silence Nuffink, zilch. So no economic gain and no obvious gain on the Statute Book. Great Why should I care? Well past my retirement age and comfortable. Well here is the rub. As a baby boomer I grew up, was the beneficiary of, NHS, free tertiary education (plus grant) and as I became into full working age (read proper job) the UK joined Europe and the Treaty of Rome. During my working life the UK has changed out of all recognition, the economic gains and subsequent lifestyles my grandparents would be shocked at. Now, given the utter inability to construct a case for leaving the EU I am left to conclude that actually this is all about nationalism. A quick march backwards. On a personal level this adversely affects my children and grandchildren who, from now on in, will quite possibly be denied the freedoms and choices I had. All because 52% followed the English Nationalists without any, none, clueless, idea why. |
|
warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,833
|
Post by warehamgas on Dec 13, 2020 19:15:02 GMT
One of my favourite sayings is “we are where we are” and from that we need to move forward and resolve the problems we have. So if there’s no deal, there’s no deal and we start getting used to World Trade Organisation tariffs.
I too voted to Remain but I was over-ruled and we voted out. Since then we’ve had two general elections, three American Presidents, we have 17 days left to go and I’d suggest we’re no nearer to getting a deal than we were back then. They tell me 97% of the deal is agreed but it’s still likely to be no deal which tells me that the powers that be have not a scooby-doo about how to get an agreement and perhaps never did. And perhaps since July ‘19 this government weren’t really worried about a deal anyway. (Not that they’d own up to that)
Fishing is the flagpost to which they are hoisting their flag of sovereignty. As Darlo gave the %s I won’t repeat them but don’t believe a word of it as a practical reason inhibiting a deal. It’s a complete red herring (no pun intended) but one that will go down well with those who see “sovereignty” as the main issue. It’s a completely ridiculous position that no serious government would ever allow themselves to be tied to.
But let’s get this done and then move on. Those important issues of social mobility/ poverty gap are far more important and I’m afraid that they won’t even be considered until this government has moved on from Brexit. There are some competent people in this government Truss and Patel are capable and from experience I’d say that Michael Gove was as well. Civil Servants who’ve worked with Gove speak highly of him but he is a marmite character and has been tainted by his ambition. And engendering trust and being capable are different traits!
We’ve had enough words now, 4 years and nearly 6 months since the vote. Get it done and let’s move on.
UTG!
|
|
Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,074
|
Post by Rex on Dec 13, 2020 19:23:12 GMT
One of my favourite sayings is “we are where we are” and from that we need to move forward and resolve the problems we have. So if there’s no deal, there’s no deal and we start getting used to World Trade Organisation tariffs. I too voted to Remain but I was over-ruled and we voted out. Since then we’ve had two general elections, three American Presidents, we have 17 days left to go and I’d suggest we’re no nearer to getting a deal than we were back then. They tell me 97% of the deal is agreed but it’s still likely to be no deal which tells me that the powers that be have not a scooby-doo about how to get an agreement and perhaps never did. And perhaps since July ‘19 this government weren’t really worried about a deal anyway. (Not that they’d own up to that) Fishing is the flagpost to which they are hoisting their flag of sovereignty. As Darlo gave the %s I won’t repeat them but don’t believe a word of it as a practical reason inhibiting a deal. It’s a complete red herring (no pun intended) but one that will go down well with those who see “sovereignty” as the main issue. It’s a completely ridiculous position that no serious government would ever allow themselves to be tied to. But let’s get this done and then move on. Those important issues of social mobility/ poverty gap are far more important and I’m afraid that they won’t even be considered until this government has moved on from Brexit. There are some competent people in this government Truss and Patel are capable and from experience I’d say that Michael Gove was as well. Civil Servants who’ve worked with Gove speak highly of him but he is a marmite character and has been tainted by his ambition. And engendering trust and being capable are different traits! We’ve had enough words now, 4 years and nearly 6 months since the vote. Get it done and let’s move on.UTG! Absolutely, but I do think those guilty of the shambles it has become should be held to account. There are plenty of decent people in the Conservative party, I hope they get their act together and oust the incompetents & liars who are currently calling the shots. |
|
oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,402
|
Post by oldie on Dec 13, 2020 19:49:46 GMT
One of my favourite sayings is “we are where we are” and from that we need to move forward and resolve the problems we have. So if there’s no deal, there’s no deal and we start getting used to World Trade Organisation tariffs. I too voted to Remain but I was over-ruled and we voted out. Since then we’ve had two general elections, three American Presidents, we have 17 days left to go and I’d suggest we’re no nearer to getting a deal than we were back then. They tell me 97% of the deal is agreed but it’s still likely to be no deal which tells me that the powers that be have not a scooby-doo about how to get an agreement and perhaps never did. And perhaps since July ‘19 this government weren’t really worried about a deal anyway. (Not that they’d own up to that) Fishing is the flagpost to which they are hoisting their flag of sovereignty. As Darlo gave the %s I won’t repeat them but don’t believe a word of it as a practical reason inhibiting a deal. It’s a complete red herring (no pun intended) but one that will go down well with those who see “sovereignty” as the main issue. It’s a completely ridiculous position that no serious government would ever allow themselves to be tied to. But let’s get this done and then move on. Those important issues of social mobility/ poverty gap are far more important and I’m afraid that they won’t even be considered until this government has moved on from Brexit. There are some competent people in this government Truss and Patel are capable and from experience I’d say that Michael Gove was as well. Civil Servants who’ve worked with Gove speak highly of him but he is a marmite character and has been tainted by his ambition. And engendering trust and being capable are different traits! We’ve had enough words now, 4 years and nearly 6 months since the vote. Get it done and let’s move on.UTG! Absolutely, but I do think those guilty of the shambles it has become should be held to account. There are plenty of decent people in the Conservative party, I hope they get their act together and oust the incompetents & liars who are currently calling the shots. This, absolutely. |
|
warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,833
|
Post by warehamgas on Dec 13, 2020 22:13:15 GMT
One of my favourite sayings is “we are where we are” and from that we need to move forward and resolve the problems we have. So if there’s no deal, there’s no deal and we start getting used to World Trade Organisation tariffs. I too voted to Remain but I was over-ruled and we voted out. Since then we’ve had two general elections, three American Presidents, we have 17 days left to go and I’d suggest we’re no nearer to getting a deal than we were back then. They tell me 97% of the deal is agreed but it’s still likely to be no deal which tells me that the powers that be have not a scooby-doo about how to get an agreement and perhaps never did. And perhaps since July ‘19 this government weren’t really worried about a deal anyway. (Not that they’d own up to that) Fishing is the flagpost to which they are hoisting their flag of sovereignty. As Darlo gave the %s I won’t repeat them but don’t believe a word of it as a practical reason inhibiting a deal. It’s a complete red herring (no pun intended) but one that will go down well with those who see “sovereignty” as the main issue. It’s a completely ridiculous position that no serious government would ever allow themselves to be tied to. But let’s get this done and then move on. Those important issues of social mobility/ poverty gap are far more important and I’m afraid that they won’t even be considered until this government has moved on from Brexit. There are some competent people in this government Truss and Patel are capable and from experience I’d say that Michael Gove was as well. Civil Servants who’ve worked with Gove speak highly of him but he is a marmite character and has been tainted by his ambition. And engendering trust and being capable are different traits! We’ve had enough words now, 4 years and nearly 6 months since the vote. Get it done and let’s move on.UTG! Absolutely, but I do think those guilty of the shambles it has become should be held to account. There are plenty of decent people in the Conservative party, I hope they get their act together and oust the incompetents & liars who are currently calling the shots. When you say held to account I’m sure they will be, at the next election when people will either like what they’ve done and vote them back or decide they don’t like it and vote them out. Unless of course you mean held to account legally, which would be hard to prove. Being stupid, or being wrong, or being wrong politically, or doing what they’ve done may be reprehensible but it’s not illegal. If you mean, as I think you imply, will the Conservative Party do something about Johnson and his cohort I think you may be right. But that will depend on my first point, I think. If the Conservatives think they are in danger of losing an election they will ditch Johnson very quickly. If they think he’s going to win the next election they will do nothing, however many decent people there are in the party. And of course it depends on who you see what the party is. I doubt Johnson will be ousted over Brexit. Getting ousted over his incompetence over CV19 is much more likely because that is where his true incompetence has shown itself. Brexit? That was just an opportunity for BJ to lead a “popular” movement and achieve his ambition of being PM. It would never have happened without Brexit. In 2016 he saw an opportunity that would never have presented itself in any other way. He seized that opportunity despite never being an anti-European or anti-EU in the years leading up to June 2016. UTG! |
|
oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,402
|
Post by oldie on Dec 14, 2020 6:37:08 GMT
Absolutely, but I do think those guilty of the shambles it has become should be held to account. There are plenty of decent people in the Conservative party, I hope they get their act together and oust the incompetents & liars who are currently calling the shots. When you say held to account I’m sure they will be, at the next election when people will either like what they’ve done and vote them back or decide they don’t like it and vote them out. Unless of course you mean held to account legally, which would be hard to prove. Being stupid, or being wrong, or being wrong politically, or doing what they’ve done may be reprehensible but it’s not illegal. If you mean, as I think you imply, will the Conservative Party do something about Johnson and his cohort I think you may be right. But that will depend on my first point, I think. If the Conservatives think they are in danger of losing an election they will ditch Johnson very quickly. If they think he’s going to win the next election they will do nothing, however many decent people there are in the party. And of course it depends on who you see what the party is. I doubt Johnson will be ousted over Brexit. Getting ousted over his incompetence over CV19 is much more likely because that is where his true incompetence has shown itself. Brexit? That was just an opportunity for BJ to lead a “popular” movement and achieve his ambition of being PM. It would never have happened without Brexit. In 2016 he saw an opportunity that would never have presented itself in any other way. He seized that opportunity despite never being an anti-European or anti-EU in the years leading up to June 2016. UTG! Lying, to be caught lying, generally leads to resignation But he has not resigned. What to do? Voters, voters who voted for an event that causes material harm to others, What to do? |
|
basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,061
|
Post by basel on Dec 14, 2020 7:32:59 GMT
When you say held to account I’m sure they will be, at the next election when people will either like what they’ve done and vote them back or decide they don’t like it and vote them out. Unless of course you mean held to account legally, which would be hard to prove. Being stupid, or being wrong, or being wrong politically, or doing what they’ve done may be reprehensible but it’s not illegal. If you mean, as I think you imply, will the Conservative Party do something about Johnson and his cohort I think you may be right. But that will depend on my first point, I think. If the Conservatives think they are in danger of losing an election they will ditch Johnson very quickly. If they think he’s going to win the next election they will do nothing, however many decent people there are in the party. And of course it depends on who you see what the party is. I doubt Johnson will be ousted over Brexit. Getting ousted over his incompetence over CV19 is much more likely because that is where his true incompetence has shown itself. Brexit? That was just an opportunity for BJ to lead a “popular” movement and achieve his ambition of being PM. It would never have happened without Brexit. In 2016 he saw an opportunity that would never have presented itself in any other way. He seized that opportunity despite never being an anti-European or anti-EU in the years leading up to June 2016. UTG! Lying, to be caught lying, generally leads to resignation But he has not resigned. What to do? Voters, voters who voted for an event that causes material harm to others, What to do? Those that refused to accept a democratic vote.Those that held meetings with EU representatives,informing them of ways to disrupt Brexit.The BBC with their clear Remain stance. |
|
oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,402
|
Post by oldie on Dec 14, 2020 8:01:42 GMT
Lying, to be caught lying, generally leads to resignation But he has not resigned. What to do? Voters, voters who voted for an event that causes material harm to others, What to do? Those that refused to accept a democratic vote.Those that held meetings with EU representatives,informing them of ways to disrupt Brexit.The BBC with their clear Remain stance. 😂😂😂 Stories Basel, no facts |
|
basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,061
|
Post by basel on Dec 14, 2020 8:09:17 GMT
Those that refused to accept a democratic vote.Those that held meetings with EU representatives,informing them of ways to disrupt Brexit.The BBC with their clear Remain stance. 😂😂😂 Stories Basel, no facts I forgot to add PM May.She actually worked against the democratic decision to Leave. Blair.Major.Clegg.Ollie Robins and his Remainer 'ideas above their station' HO gang. The darlings of the BBC.Eg,QT continued to have more Remainer panelists than Leavers.Gina Miller,although her Court result comeback to bite her bottom once we had a PM that decided to do our democracys work. Jackanory I think not. |
|
Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,074
|
Post by Rex on Dec 14, 2020 9:21:51 GMT
😂😂😂 Stories Basel, no facts I forgot to add PM May.She actually worked against the democratic decision to Leave. Blair.Major.Clegg.Ollie Robins and his Remainer 'ideas above their station' HO gang. The darlings of the BBC.Eg,QT continued to have more Remainer panelists than Leavers.Gina Miller,although her Court result comeback to bite her bottom once we had a PM that decided to do our democracys work. Jackanory I think not. How did Theresa May work against Brexit ? She got the framework of a deal which, surprise surprise, Johnson, Gove and their cronies voted down,only to bring back the same deal later, with more restrictions and present it as their own! I may not agree with her on many things, but I would say she was a pretty decent person, trying to do the right thing for her country, only to be well and truly shafted by colleagues who saw an opportunity to further their own careers. I'm not sure how Blair etc,, had 'ideas above their station' , but they know a s*** show when they see it, and this was most definitely one! I don't know where on earth you get your figures from regarding Question Time having more remainers than leavers when there was even a report at the time pointing out the extraordinary amount of air time given to a man who has actually made a career out of Brexit, despite his numerous failed attempts to enter parliament, Nigel Farage. What an conniving, odious man he is btw. He knows Brexit was never going to see a benefit for the UK economy and now he luxuriates in sitting back and denouncing every single deal put forward as 'worse than remaining in the EU', it's a win . win for that vile excuse of a man. We have not seen one shred of evidence that Brexit will be beneficial to the economy, even the b******s who lied to get Brexit, admit things are going to get worse, yet somehow, despite all the evidence, you are backing those very same people, I really do find it incredible. As others have said, we have no choice but to try and find a way to make it work for the benefit of as many people as possible, if you think Johnson and co are those people - and please remember, they actually lied to get the result they wanted, then I think you are way, way off the mark. Please, look at the evidence! |
|
oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,402
|
Post by oldie on Dec 14, 2020 9:42:38 GMT
Rex
"
As others have said, we have no choice but to try and find a way to make it work for the benefit of as many people as possible, if you think Johnson and co are those people - and please remember, they actually lied to get the result they wanted, then I think you are way, way off the mark. Please, look at the evidence"
Look at the evidence? You have as much chance of that happening with folk like Basel as a manifestation from God.
Let's be honest he is just regurgitating gutter press headlines, he clearly has no idea what he is talking about.
In fact he is typical of the guests that humiliate themselves on the O'Brien radio show that Epping referred to.
Not attacking the poster here but using his posts as evidence to make my point.
Rex, are you reconsidering your evaluation of him?
|
|
basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,061
|
Post by basel on Dec 14, 2020 10:02:21 GMT
I accepted the democratic result in 2016.I'm happy to move on,I've been waiting 4 years to do just that.
Anything to say about our potential if it's WTO.
|
|
Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,074
|
Post by Rex on Dec 14, 2020 10:17:36 GMT
Rex " As others have said, we have no choice but to try and find a way to make it work for the benefit of as many people as possible, if you think Johnson and co are those people - and please remember, they actually lied to get the result they wanted, then I think you are way, way off the mark. Please, look at the evidence" Look at the evidence? You have as much chance of that happening with folk like Basel as a manifestation from God. Let's be honest he is just regurgitating gutter press headlines, he clearly has no idea what he is talking about. In fact he is typical of the guests that humiliate themselves on the O'Brien radio show that Epping referred to. Not attacking the poster here but using his posts as evidence to make my point. Rex, are you reconsidering your evaluation of him?No, he's a mate , I know he is a thoroughly decent bloke and he is certainly a lot more liberal in his outlook on life than his posts suggest. Which makes it all even more frustrating! |
|
oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,402
|
Post by oldie on Dec 14, 2020 10:30:50 GMT
I accepted the democratic result in 2016.I'm happy to move on,I've been waiting 4 years to do just that. Anything to say about our potential if it's WTO. What do you think Basel? |
|
oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,402
|
Post by oldie on Dec 14, 2020 10:31:35 GMT
Rex " As others have said, we have no choice but to try and find a way to make it work for the benefit of as many people as possible, if you think Johnson and co are those people - and please remember, they actually lied to get the result they wanted, then I think you are way, way off the mark. Please, look at the evidence" Look at the evidence? You have as much chance of that happening with folk like Basel as a manifestation from God. Let's be honest he is just regurgitating gutter press headlines, he clearly has no idea what he is talking about. In fact he is typical of the guests that humiliate themselves on the O'Brien radio show that Epping referred to. Not attacking the poster here but using his posts as evidence to make my point. Rex, are you reconsidering your evaluation of him?No, he's a mate , I know he is a thoroughly decent bloke and he is certainly a lot more liberal in his outlook on life than his posts suggest. Which makes it all even more frustrating! Fair dues. |
|
warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,833
|
Post by warehamgas on Dec 14, 2020 10:34:12 GMT
There are stories and facts on both sides. Just as the brexeteers have, in various forms been fighting the EU over the 30 years preceding the referendum, since 2016 the Remainers have been fighting it. Part of that equation has been politicians of both sides who have been less than honest about their intentions. TM from her silence in the Referendum debate and her ineptness to realise the party she was leading were not on her side to the Labour Party to the misinformation from the Brexiteers who basically told porkies.
Basel is correct in setting out the powers fighting Brexit since 2016 but no government could ever have gone against the referendum and continue to argue that they were a democratic party but they had no clue of how to turn a Leave vote into a EU deal. They were useless. But of course it wasn’t as simple as leaving because the Brexiteers had been persuaded and created the story that leaving would be easy when of course it wasn’t. The EU were not going to give us a deal we could sign up for. So here we are 16 days to go and no one has any idea how to get a deal by anything other than brinkmanship.
The only true way of holding politician s to account as oldie wants is through general elections. It is the only means whereby politicians are held to account. We’ve seen that Patel survived some poor behaviour, outside the ministerial code, for which no one held her to account. I doubt if the election will punish her, but over the years ahead she may do it agains and make her position untenable, with a stronger leader.
Plebs like me are fairly powerless to persuade governments to do what we want except that one opportunity every 5 years.
UTG!
|
|
oldie
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,402
|
Post by oldie on Dec 14, 2020 10:39:54 GMT
There are stories and facts on both sides. Just as the brexeteers have, in various forms been fighting the EU over the 30 years preceding the referendum, since 2016 the Remainers have been fighting it. Part of that equation has been politicians of both sides who have been less than honest about their intentions. TM from her silence in the Referendum debate and her ineptness to realise the party she was leading were not on her side to the Labour Party to the misinformation from the Brexiteers who basically told porkies. Basel is correct in setting out the powers fighting Brexit since 2016 but no government could ever have gone against the referendum and continue to argue that they were a democratic party but they had no clue of how to turn a Leave vote into a EU deal. They were useless. But of course it wasn’t as simple as leaving because the Brexiteers had been persuaded and created the story that leaving would be easy when of course it wasn’t. The EU were not going to give us a deal we could sign up for. So here we are 16 days to go and no one has any idea how to get a deal by anything other than brinkmanship. The only true way of holding politician s to account as oldie wants is through general elections. It is the only means whereby politicians are held to account. We’ve seen that Patel survived some poor behaviour, outside the ministerial code, for which no one held her to account. I doubt if the election will punish her, but over the years ahead she may do it agains and make her position untenable, with a stronger leader. Plebs like me are fairly powerless to persuade governments to do what we want except that one opportunity every 5 years. UTG! Wareham "Basel is correct in setting out the powers fighting Brexit since 2016" What actual evidence do you have for making that assertion? There is no denying that those of us that saw Brexit as an act of national self harm continued to point that out. That's the patriotic thing to do. But exactly how have we succeeded in stopping it? |
|
