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Post by mangogas15 on Dec 3, 2020 17:31:19 GMT
I've not actually seen so much of it,so please tell me where I go wrong.... GK is good,very much missed when away on international duty. Defence,lacks concentration and clarity of duties. Midfield does'nt compete or create enough. Striker/s don't score enough. Midfield is a mixture of 2 very creative players and the rest are stoppers, Upson has no pace or stamina imo, the rest do and are also good on the ball. We have not found the best combo at the back yet but Ehmer must be part of it, with his L1 experience. Hare, yes, Tutonda LB only with 3 at the back. If 4 then Leahy. Get a decent 2nd keeper now. Need 2 more strikers to back up or overtake Hanlan.
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Post by mangogas15 on Dec 3, 2020 17:34:53 GMT
our performances were more composed organised and confident under Garner compared to last 3. I look again at what I said “it needs more Garnerball, because moving ball quickly, moving into space off the ball, and a better press than we showed last 3 league games is football. Garner wasn’t undone by garner ball, he was undone by the quality of the players. Emer, Baldwin and Killer can’t even deal with simple passes over the top. The three forwards either injured or missing the target. No one in the rest of the team helping them out with goals”. That’s all true. Those of you wanting Garner gone have what you deserve, a manager preferring Upson to Westbrook, Leahy to Totunda, Baldwin in place of someone who can defend etc.
Sometimes you back the wrong horse, it's best just to realise you did and accept that. I'm quite a simple bloke, with a very basic knowledge of football. I backed Coughlan from day one and all the evidence that followed suggest I was right to do so. I was sceptical about Garner but thought he should be given time, to a degree he was and all the evidence suggests that he didn't make a very good fist of it. Paul Tisdale may or may not prove to be the man to get us out of this mess, but we have to give him the benefit of the doubt ( we have no choice there). You seem to be keen to protect Garner from any blame for the current mess, I think the evidence suggests he doesn't deserve that protection. Garner completely to blame for this.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Dec 3, 2020 18:39:19 GMT
our performances were more composed organised and confident under Garner compared to last 3. I look again at what I said “it needs more Garnerball, because moving ball quickly, moving into space off the ball, and a better press than we showed last 3 league games is football. Garner wasn’t undone by garner ball, he was undone by the quality of the players. Emer, Baldwin and Killer can’t even deal with simple passes over the top. The three forwards either injured or missing the target. No one in the rest of the team helping them out with goals”. That’s all true. Those of you wanting Garner gone have what you deserve, a manager preferring Upson to Westbrook, Leahy to Totunda, Baldwin in place of someone who can defend etc.
Sometimes you back the wrong horse, it's best just to realise you did and accept that. I'm quite a simple bloke, with a very basic knowledge of football. I backed Coughlan from day one and all the evidence that followed suggest I was right to do so. I was sceptical about Garner but thought he should be given time, to a degree he was and all the evidence suggests that he didn't make a very good fist of it. Paul Tisdale may or may not prove to be the man to get us out of this mess, but we have to give him the benefit of the doubt ( we have no choice there). You seem to be keen to protect Garner from any blame for the current mess, I think the evidence suggests he doesn't deserve that protection. I didn't particularly want Garner sacked but I also think he fully deserved to go. Apart from 1 month we looked universally poor and out of our depth under Garner. He took a club that was 4th when he arrived and left it just above the relegation zone. The players he has recruited do not look up to it on the whole and there is a total lack of spine to the squad that is neccesary to compete in League 1. The squad was not functioning, the team was not functioning. Getting rid of the manager seems a good punt at that point.
I didn't see progressive football for any sustained period - I saw a disjointed mess and an onfield set-up that simply failed to compete most of the time. A poor side is poor to watch no matter how they are trying to play. Part of that was strategy, part of that was the recruitment. Either way that is laid squarely at the door of the manager. He never showed the remotest evidence that he was up to it.
Nevertheless, it's still a risk jumping horses midstream like this. Garner's approach was flawed and his squad poor, but they were at least his squad. Now you have another manager (with, by the way, 10 times the pedigree of achievement in football than Garner) trying to do something with that squad. I can imagine his initial thoughts were probably along the lines of 'I wouldn't start from here'. It's a mess and it's absolutely Garner's mess and Tisdale may not be able to replace. But writing off Tisdale after 3/4 games is ridiculous - he has as good a shot as anyone of pulling this off and the counterfactual that we'd have been alright if Garner had stayed is devoid of any real evidence.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2020 19:50:36 GMT
Sometimes you back the wrong horse, it's best just to realise you did and accept that. I'm quite a simple bloke, with a very basic knowledge of football. I backed Coughlan from day one and all the evidence that followed suggest I was right to do so. I was sceptical about Garner but thought he should be given time, to a degree he was and all the evidence suggests that he didn't make a very good fist of it. Paul Tisdale may or may not prove to be the man to get us out of this mess, but we have to give him the benefit of the doubt ( we have no choice there). You seem to be keen to protect Garner from any blame for the current mess, I think the evidence suggests he doesn't deserve that protection. I didn't particularly want Garner sacked but I also think he fully deserved to go. Apart from 1 month we looked universally poor and out of our depth under Garner. He took a club that was 4th when he arrived and left it just above the relegation zone. The players he has recruited do not look up to it on the whole and there is a total lack of spine to the squad that is neccesary to compete in League 1. The squad was not functioning, the team was not functioning. Getting rid of the manager seems a good punt at that point.
I didn't see progressive football for any sustained period - I saw a disjointed mess and an onfield set-up that simply failed to compete most of the time. A poor side is poor to watch no matter how they are trying to play. Part of that was strategy, part of that was the recruitment. Either way that is laid squarely at the door of the manager. He never showed the remotest evidence that he was up to it.
Nevertheless, it's still a risk jumping horses midstream like this. Garner's approach was flawed and his squad poor, but they were at least his squad. Now you have another manager (with, by the way, 10 times the pedigree of achievement in football than Garner) trying to do something with that squad. I can imagine his initial thoughts were probably along the lines of 'I wouldn't start from here'. It's a mess and it's absolutely Garner's mess and Tisdale may not be able to replace. But writing off Tisdale after 3/4 games is ridiculous - he has as good a shot as anyone of pulling this off and the counterfactual that we'd have been alright if Garner had stayed is devoid of any real evidence. The evidence is extrapolating one month of decent form over the course of the rest of the season and producing an imaginary points total that would have seen us safe. By that logic Coughlan would have have got us promoted as champions but the people backing Garner seem to be the same ones who think Coughlan was going to come unstuck after Christmas if he’d stayed and they want it all ways with these imaginary points totals. Garner just wasn’t up to it. End of. The players are also collectively not up to it more than likely. God help Tisdale, he must regret answering the phone.
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harrybuckle
Always look on the bright side
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Post by harrybuckle on Dec 3, 2020 20:42:14 GMT
PT dilemma is he is keen to restore his confidence following his untimely departure from MK Dons His record at Exeter City was fairly good and his loyalty working on a tiny budget within a football trust environment was appreciated by the fans. His ability to spot develop and sale youngsters to premier clubs was successful and certainly saved the club from serious financial problems. His brief I suspect is similar here but a push for the championship must be an incentive. Good luck to him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2020 21:38:17 GMT
Lots of pertinent points on this'un. I never once saw Ogogo shirk or walk round. Lad tackled and ran whenever I watched him. Ben Garner is the only reason he left. With the winless wonder gone, there's none. I would recall Ogogo in a heartbeat. There's nowt wrong with winning the ball.
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Igitur
Joined: June 2014
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Post by Igitur on Dec 4, 2020 10:03:32 GMT
I agree that Ogogo should have been played and never sent out on loan, Garner seemed to think the league is all about flowery football and not appreciate the somewhat agricultural side(s) of Division 3. I think we have got to lump it in with all the other things Garner got wrong and move on. Had he been given a number, Ogogo's high(ish) salary would have been included in the budget limitations calculation, PT needs to have some flexibility come January to bring in players.
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Post by laughinggas on Dec 4, 2020 10:16:47 GMT
Lots of pertinent points on this'un. I never once saw Ogogo shirk or walk round. Lad tackled and ran whenever I watched him. Ben Garner is the only reason he left. With the winless wonder gone, there's none. I would recall Ogogo in a heartbeat. There's nowt wrong with winning the ball. Did you see Ogogo looking for the ball when we had it? He use to mark opposing players when we had a throw in. Sometimes I think he got an easy ride from fans. Not many obvious mistakes in a game because he never did much going forward. Did he win more tackles or get in more blocks than Clarke or Upson? Doubt it, but those two are lambasted when trying to create something going forward, something Ogogo would not try. Wonder how stats are building up with Grant as a comparison? Without a JCH type upfront scoring goals out of scraps just having a player trying to break up play is not enough. Ogogo could not do it on his own hence Lines disappeared. See how Tis changes things. Anyone seen what's happened at Mansfield since change, no transfer window available to them. Will Shrewsbury improve or wait till the window?
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Post by mangogas15 on Dec 4, 2020 10:38:19 GMT
Lots of pertinent points on this'un. I never once saw Ogogo shirk or walk round. Lad tackled and ran whenever I watched him. Ben Garner is the only reason he left. With the winless wonder gone, there's none. I would recall Ogogo in a heartbeat. There's nowt wrong with winning the ball. Did you see Ogogo looking for the ball when we had it? He use to mark opposing players when we had a throw in. Sometimes I think he got an easy ride from fans. Not many obvious mistakes in a game because he never did much going forward. Did he win more tackles or get in more blocks than Clarke or Upson? Doubt it, but those two are lambasted when trying to create something going forward, something Ogogo would not try. Wonder how stats are building up with Grant as a comparison? Without a JCH type upfront scoring goals out of scraps just having a player trying to break up play is not enough. Ogogo could not do it on his own hence Lines disappeared. See how Tis changes things. Anyone seen what's happened at Mansfield since change, no transfer window available to them. Will Shrewsbury improve or wait till the window? Can't remember the last time Upson tried to create something going forward. Clarke was found out massively in his last season at least. Ogogo had more MOMs than both put together, the prawn sandwich brigade do not lie. Rose tinted glasses is a danger here, granted. He is definitely someone we need though and can call on as he is our player. I notice Grimsby have kicked on since Bennett went there..
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Dec 4, 2020 12:16:34 GMT
BG has put us back years. Simples. Everything looked good on paper or a spreadsheet, and surprise surprise (generally) it didn't work.
The irony is, BG may well have underpinned a very good squad or acquired some salable commodity from a past premier development squad that might bring in income way way past his managerial demise.
BG took away all the hard work DC and GC invested in and helped build within a year, quite a remarkable feat!
Tis now has inherited a lightweight, dysfunctional, imbalanced mostly youthful squad, with some of the more senior players not fulfilling the tasks they were employed for. Little, Rodman, Ehmer and Westbrooke are intermittently possibly for no blame of their own not doing enough to support the players around them that are looking up to them.
We have set ourselves back years to regroup to the stage of getting to 4th on the table with the team spirit, free spirited, hard to beat style and streetwise team that can sustain a serious promotion push, but some of us warned of this and were roundly ignored.
I'm afraid we've made our bed, chaps (and chapesses) (and inbetween).
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Post by CabbagePatchBlues on Dec 4, 2020 12:36:50 GMT
Sometimes you back the wrong horse, it's best just to realise you did and accept that. I'm quite a simple bloke, with a very basic knowledge of football. I backed Coughlan from day one and all the evidence that followed suggest I was right to do so. I was sceptical about Garner but thought he should be given time, to a degree he was and all the evidence suggests that he didn't make a very good fist of it. Paul Tisdale may or may not prove to be the man to get us out of this mess, but we have to give him the benefit of the doubt ( we have no choice there). You seem to be keen to protect Garner from any blame for the current mess, I think the evidence suggests he doesn't deserve that protection. Garner completely to blame for this. His remit was also to change the club culture and mentality into something less ragbag and more professional. It was harder than he thought judging by the responses from the hardcore "know-it-all" fans. I'd have given him the season because believe or not we've only sunk into the relegation mire since he left and he wouldn't have lost at fricken' Swindon. The players don't look half as up for it anymore so good luck to Tisdale with that as he changes it all back again.
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Post by Global Gas on Dec 4, 2020 13:51:29 GMT
Big problem we face is the lack of time on the training ground at the moment. You can't sort out problems when you don't have the time to do it.
Every training sessions at the moment is focused on the opposition so no time to look at the problems with our play.
Personally think we should have stuck with Garner til crimbo because there is no time for another manager to get stuck into the team and get them playing how they want.
Director of Football should have had a word with BG and said you're too predictable and given some advice.
Every game at the moment is gonna be a training game for PTII as he gets to know what works and what doesn't.
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Post by Colyton Gas. on Dec 4, 2020 13:58:19 GMT
BG should go into Politics.Great in theory but of little use where it really matters.Up here Stoke appointed Nathan Jones who did a great job at Luton but results were on a par with BG and Stoke like us plummeted. BG was a lovely man but NOT a manager and if we go down -again- then when I think of where we were nearly 12 months ago after winning at Ipswich,I don't think there is any doubt about him being the wrong appointment. Too many mediocre players sadly with the lack of passion a real concern ,the lack of goals an embarrassment and the prospect of relegation very real.Did you go to Ipswich when we won last season? And did you see the gulf when we have played them this season?The evidence is overwhelming.PT you have my full support.Get it sorted please.
P.S.Would start;Hargreaves,Liddle and Barrett.
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Post by laughinggas on Dec 4, 2020 15:37:59 GMT
Luton 3 points behind Stoke!
Gerry Francis struggled at Exeter, but says he learnt that players in bottom leagues can't do what those in top division can.
Will BG learn? Doubt he will get the chance again.
Big pressure on Tis as he knew players he gets at start and limited room for manoeuvre, has he got the skills to stop the slide.
Nigel Clough has installed confidence to turn fortunes around.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2020 18:47:55 GMT
Garner completely to blame for this. His remit was also to change the club culture and mentality into something less ragbag and more professional. It was harder than he thought judging by the responses from the hardcore "know-it-all" fans. I'd have given him the season because believe or not we've only sunk into the relegation mire since he left and he wouldn't have lost at fricken' Swindon. The players don't look half as up for it anymore so good luck to Tisdale with that as he changes it all back again. His public image: baseball cap, gilet and ranting at the ref, was anything but professional. However it does seem that in a few years most will look back fondly on his time at the Gas with dewy eyed nostalgia convinced that he would have got us promoted if he was allowed to stay based on three wins against the mighty Northampton, Shrewsbury and Lincoln.
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Post by laughinggas on Dec 4, 2020 19:02:37 GMT
His public image: baseball cap, gilet and ranting at the ref, was anything but professional.
Could be Tony Pullis.
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Dec 4, 2020 20:09:29 GMT
One small difference. Tony Pulis knows how to manage teams to win football matches.
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Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,287
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Post by Rex on Dec 4, 2020 21:43:18 GMT
Lots of pertinent points on this'un. I never once saw Ogogo shirk or walk round. Lad tackled and ran whenever I watched him. Ben Garner is the only reason he left. With the winless wonder gone, there's none. I would recall Ogogo in a heartbeat. There's nowt wrong with winning the ball. Did you see Ogogo looking for the ball when we had it? He use to mark opposing players when we had a throw in. Sometimes I think he got an easy ride from fans. Not many obvious mistakes in a game because he never did much going forward. Did he win more tackles or get in more blocks than Clarke or Upson? Doubt it, but those two are lambasted when trying to create something going forward, something Ogogo would not try. Wonder how stats are building up with Grant as a comparison? Without a JCH type upfront scoring goals out of scraps just having a player trying to break up play is not enough. Ogogo could not do it on his own hence Lines disappeared. See how Tis changes things. Anyone seen what's happened at Mansfield since change, no transfer window available to them. Will Shrewsbury improve or wait till the window? Ogogo wasn't perfect, but I'd have him back in a heartbeat. I could pick holes in most players games , but unfortunately people seem to fall into a trap of deciding they are for or against them. I think the best way to manage a football team is to look at the players you have, play in an appropriate way and do everything you can to generate a good team spirit. Gerry Francis sussed that out to great effect and it looked like Coughlan was well on his way to doing the same.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Dec 5, 2020 2:30:56 GMT
Garner completely to blame for this. His remit was also to change the club culture and mentality into something less ragbag and more professional. It was harder than he thought judging by the responses from the hardcore "know-it-all" fans. I'd have given him the season because believe or not we've only sunk into the relegation mire since he left and he wouldn't have lost at fricken' Swindon. The players don't look half as up for it anymore so good luck to Tisdale with that as he changes it all back again. Please point to any evidence that he actually achieved any of the above. Made us more Professional? On what basis do you make that claim? What are defining as professional and how did Garner contribute to this? What was the new mentality that he imposed? I saw a team that had no cohesion and a manager who had no talent tactical awareness and a squad ls lacking a spine.A manager who achieved nothing visible.Prior to Swindon we'd lost 3 straight home games bu multiple goals and deserved to lose by more and hadn't won in close to a month.Why would he have been guaranteed to win that game? Why is Garner,a man with no serious pedigree in the game a more progressive figure than Tisdale? A manager with significant experience of playing progressive football and bringing on young players. Please state the evidence that this cultural shift occurred.
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