bloogas
Joined: July 2016
Posts: 1,093
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Post by bloogas on Sept 28, 2020 10:59:11 GMT
I think I've posed this question before... but here goes again. Why did we give BG the job with a paper thin CV and no managerial experience (coaching aside)? Is there a personal tie with Wael that goes back to chelski / west London? If I'm wrong - fine. But I just can't see why he was in the frame when GC got the job, and why he was fast-tracked in when GC went post-Ipswich. An away win and Tom Nichols scored. Crikey. One to live long in the memory. No disrespect Epping, but I'd think this was given. I was once talking to a colleague about how one of our managers got a job. He simply remarked "well, he persuaded the board, didn't he". Assume BG talked a good talk. Unfortunately doesn't seem able to walk it.
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warehamgas
Predictions League
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Post by warehamgas on Sept 28, 2020 11:06:38 GMT
I think I've posed this question before... but here goes again. Why did we give BG the job with a paper thin CV and no managerial experience (coaching aside)? Is there a personal tie with Wael that goes back to chelski / west London? If I'm wrong - fine. But I just can't see why he was in the frame when GC got the job, and why he was fast-tracked in when GC went post-Ipswich. An away win and Tom Nichols scored. Crikey. One to live long in the memory. But epping it is clubs like us that give the younger managers their experience. Don Megson, Terry Cooper, Ollie, Paul T, Darrell Clarke (? Yes I know he was at Salisbury), John Ward first time, all came to us for first managerial roles and did very well. Indeed of our 6 promotions, 4 were achieved with “new” managers only Bert Tann and Gerry Francis were people who’d managed elsewhere. Although, without checking I don’t think Bert Tann had managed elsewhere, a physio at Charlton I think. I’m sure someone will correct me. So 5 out of 6 promotions achieved with new managers. Its not the lack of managerial experience in this case, it’s just he's looking like the wrong person who can’t implement his ideas nor create something from his own hand-picked players. It doesn’t seem a comfortable fit atm. I hope it changes but for it to do that he needs to learn from his defeats. I’m not sure he will, I like a bit of obstinacy but it’s coming over now more as arrogance. And that I don’t like. So I don’t really blame Wael, the idea and intention was correct it was just the wrong person. What is it they say? If you do what you’ve always done you get what you’ve always got. He needs to change. UTG! edit: although it doesn’t change my basic point about 5/6 promotions with new managers, I’ve remembered that John Ward managed at York City before us, so not a new manager.
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Rex
Predictions League
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Post by Rex on Sept 28, 2020 11:24:18 GMT
We did try to talk to Nathan Jones first. He's been gone too long.
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crater
Joined: June 2014
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Post by crater on Sept 28, 2020 11:26:11 GMT
John Ward was York City's manager before coming to us. We have a track record of also ending managerial careers
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warehamgas
Predictions League
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Post by warehamgas on Sept 28, 2020 11:49:53 GMT
John Ward was York City's manager before coming to us. We have a track record of also ending managerial careers Yes, sorry crater. I realised after I posted and edited my post. Then I saw yours. UTG!
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 13:34:02 GMT
John Ward was York City's manager before coming to us. We have a track record of also ending managerial careers Good point, since Holloway left there’s been Francis, Thompson, Graydon, Bater, Atkins, Buckle, Ward. It’s phenomenal when you think about it that we were so bad under those managers that they never managed in the league again. We seem to have one good manager then 5 Crap ones, by my reckoning we are still another 4 absolutely rotten ones away from challenging for promotion. That could be promotion from the conference again though.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Sept 28, 2020 14:36:55 GMT
John Ward was York City's manager before coming to us. We have a track record of also ending managerial careers Good point, since Holloway left there’s been Francis, Thompson, Graydon, Bater, Atkins, Buckle, Ward. It’s phenomenal when you think about it that we were so bad under those managers that they never managed in the league again. We seem to have one good manager then 5 Crap ones, by my reckoning we are still another 4 absolutely rotten ones away from challenging for promotion. That could be promotion from the conference again though. Agree with most of that but I’ll do what I always do, stick up for Ian Atkins. When he took over we were awful he actually, imo, recruited well and gave us a good next season compared to what had gone before. Pretty sure we were near the top at the end of August before tailing off. His problem was he could start an argument in an empty room and p***** off most of his colleague managers and by the end his own squad, and the next season we were poor again but at least he left a good squad for PT to get promotion. He wasn’t the best but a lot better than some of those others. UTG!
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 15:44:53 GMT
My understanding was that BG was interested in quite a few managers posts in the lower leagues before we gave him the chance. Or to put it how it was put to me - "he was applying for every job going".
I cant imagine he on a huge salary.
I actually think the model the club has adopted makes sense, ie a structure at the club that doesnt rely on a single figurehead (Manager) and could continue much the same with another manager should BG to go, if you got the right person. That makes sense for us, but can be difficult with more 'old school' managers. eg there was clear tension between Coughlan and Widdrington.
I really really want it to work with BG. Trouble is, I think we all know how its going to end. You can have all the fancy ideas and formations, but sometimes at this level you need to give out a good old bol*ocking, or use an Ogogo type to get their foot in and kick the opposition bit. This is not the Premioer league.
This appointment was always going to be brilliant & visionary, or a disaster. However much we want it to work I suspect most of us suspect how its going to end
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 16:08:58 GMT
Good point, since Holloway left there’s been Francis, Thompson, Graydon, Bater, Atkins, Buckle, Ward. It’s phenomenal when you think about it that we were so bad under those managers that they never managed in the league again. We seem to have one good manager then 5 Crap ones, by my reckoning we are still another 4 absolutely rotten ones away from challenging for promotion. That could be promotion from the conference again though. Agree with most of that but I’ll do what I always do, stick up for Ian Atkins. When he took over we were awful he actually, imo, recruited well and gave us a good next season compared to what had gone before. Pretty sure we were near the top at the end of August before tailing off. His problem was he could start an argument in an empty room and p***** off most of his colleague managers and by the end his own squad, and the next season we were poor again but at least he left a good squad for PT to get promotion. He wasn’t the best but a lot better than some of those others. UTG! Yeah I was mainly observing how they had all left management after us, some of those names are obviously better than others and Atkins did bring in some players who laid the foundations for our future promotion. He was European scout for Villa or Stoke last time I heard. I was forgetting Dave Penney too!
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Sept 28, 2020 17:00:03 GMT
This is how I figure some things, I hope I'm wrong:
BG appears to surrounding himself with mostly kids, newbies and youth. Ehmer apart, no captains or leaders. Even his assistant, no one had heard of before!? This translates to no one standing up to him or questioning his management, ergo 'yes' men.
Wael, by appointing BG appears to be doing the same.
Maybe it's a style of not bringing in anyone whom knows more than you do?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 18:19:12 GMT
This is how I figure some things, I hope I'm wrong: BG appears to surrounding himself with mostly kids, newbies and youth. Ehmer apart, no captains or leaders. Even his assistant, no one had heard of before!? This translates to no one standing up to him or questioning his management, ergo 'yes' men. Wael, by appointing BG appears to be doing the same. Maybe it's a style of not bringing in anyone whom knows more than you do? I’m hoping Mesure is here because Garner’s been told there is no money for an assistant with even a mediocre track record in the game. But I agree, Garner has the air of a man who knows it all and I doubt having competent people alongside you jives with that. Mesure will know that Garner is the daddy and there won’t be any suggestions that maybe his methods aren’t working. It’s also a good insurance policy, if you’ve got a guy sat next to you on the bench who has been known to be a capable pair of hands it’s easier to sack you and promote the assistant. I’m sure Garner is aware that DC was replace by his defence coach...You’d like to think that once Garner goes his mates are going with him but that only cements Garner’s position in some ways.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Sept 28, 2020 18:33:20 GMT
This is how I figure some things, I hope I'm wrong: BG appears to surrounding himself with mostly kids, newbies and youth. Ehmer apart, no captains or leaders. Even his assistant, no one had heard of before!? This translates to no one standing up to him or questioning his management, ergo 'yes' men. Wael, by appointing BG appears to be doing the same. Maybe it's a style of not bringing in anyone whom knows more than you do? You’d like to think that once Garner goes his mates are going with him but that only cements Garner’s position in some ways. I expressly hope so. If it were me, a reasonably experienced third level manager would herald all of BG philosophy on developing our youth, not some other teams, and be canny enough to effect change in our performance and results. This is far more an investable commodity than a failed experiment.
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Post by alloutofgas on Sept 28, 2020 18:46:44 GMT
I think a Xbox Championship Manager addict would have won more games than this Garner . Stay classy. He may not be up to the job, but he seems like a nice bloke who’s giving his all to be a success here. It’s not working, but not sure he deserves the tasteless name-calling. You are quite right. I retract that remark and apologise.
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Post by alloutofgas on Sept 28, 2020 18:53:27 GMT
I suspect it’s quite the opposite. 5 live love a good opportunity to pearl clutch on managers not being given a chance but even they would be asking “why is he still there!”. In fact that makes me think the only reason Garner is getting away with this is because we are a fairly obscure lower league club. Imagine if Mike Ashley hired a manager and still kept him in post after 2 wins in a calendar year. The media would be in over drive branding him a disgrace, saying he doesn’t care about the club, managed decline, won’t someone think of the poor suffering fans etc. 2 wins in 24 games would be a massive story in the goldfish bowl of the prem but because it’s little old Bristol Rovers either no-one gives a s*** or it’s just something to laugh about I think Rovers are undergoing a mismanaged decline. Absolutely correct. The Owner hasn’t a clue. We are stuffed.
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Post by alloutofgas on Sept 28, 2020 18:55:49 GMT
I think I've posed this question before... but here goes again. Why did we give BG the job with a paper thin CV and no managerial experience (coaching aside)? Is there a personal tie with Wael that goes back to chelski / west London? If I'm wrong - fine. But I just can't see why he was in the frame when GC got the job, and why he was fast-tracked in when GC went post-Ipswich. An away win and Tom Nichols scored. Crikey. One to live long in the memory. Cheap n cheerful.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
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Post by eppinggas on Sept 28, 2020 22:57:10 GMT
I think I've posed this question before... but here goes again. Why did we give BG the job with a paper thin CV and no managerial experience (coaching aside)? Is there a personal tie with Wael that goes back to chelski / west London? If I'm wrong - fine. But I just can't see why he was in the frame when GC got the job, and why he was fast-tracked in when GC went post-Ipswich. An away win and Tom Nichols scored. Crikey. One to live long in the memory. But epping it is clubs like us that give the younger managers their experience. Don Megson, Terry Cooper, Ollie, Paul T, Darrell Clarke (? Yes I know he was at Salisbury), John Ward first time, all came to us for first managerial roles and did very well. Indeed of our 6 promotions, 4 were achieved with “new” managers only Bert Tann and Gerry Francis were people who’d managed elsewhere. Although, without checking I don’t think Bert Tann had managed elsewhere, a physio at Charlton I think. I’m sure someone will correct me. So 5 out of 6 promotions achieved with new managers. Its not the lack of managerial experience in this case, it’s just he's looking like the wrong person who can’t implement his ideas nor create something from his own hand-picked players. It doesn’t seem a comfortable fit atm. I hope it changes but for it to do that he needs to learn from his defeats. I’m not sure he will, I like a bit of obstinacy but it’s coming over now more as arrogance. And that I don’t like. So I don’t really blame Wael, the idea and intention was correct it was just the wrong person. What is it they say? If you do what you’ve always done you get what you’ve always got. He needs to change. UTG! edit: although it doesn’t change my basic point about 5/6 promotions with new managers, I’ve remembered that John Ward managed at York City before us, so not a new manager. I think we can agree it's not about "new managers" per se. The point I tried to make is that there must be a reason why Ben Garner's CV magically floated to the top of the pile. How did he beat dozens (possibly hundreds) of other CV's? Did Wael know Ben Garner personally prior to the selection process? I think, yes. How else did he get the job? What other metrics were employed? Someone else suggested that Ben Garner did an unbelievable pitch to the Board (effectively Wael - he owns the Club) to get the job. FFS! Have you heard him in his post-match interviews? Really? Really? He couldn't sell Guinness to the Irish. I'm not buying it. It's not about a "cheap" hire either. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who would want a shout at managing a League 1 outfit and prepared to do it for peanuts. Sol Campbell anyone? Wael has made a mistake. We all suspect it. We all want BG do succeed. But we all know in our heart of hearts, it's very, very, very, unlikely to happen.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 23:11:44 GMT
Uncle Eppers makes a compelling case. Garner must have been known to Al Qadi, or recommended to him personally, I think. What do you wonder that Widdrington thinks about it?
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Post by swissgas on Sept 29, 2020 0:44:49 GMT
I think I've posed this question before... but here goes again. Why did we give BG the job with a paper thin CV and no managerial experience (coaching aside)? Is there a personal tie with Wael that goes back to chelski / west London? If I'm wrong - fine. But I just can't see why he was in the frame when GC got the job, and why he was fast-tracked in when GC went post-Ipswich. An away win and Tom Nichols scored. Crikey. One to live long in the memory. To answer the question it may be worth looking at the similarities between Ben and Wael. Both are passionate about football and both have been desperate to be significant in the football business. But neither is blessed with the exceptional natural ability which would have given them a fast direct route to a role of importance Ben spent fifteen years graduating from coaching youngsters to playing a peripheral supporting role to team managers and hoping to be asked to make the step up but then his career hit a brick wall. Wael presumably spent twenty years securing himself a minor role in Jordanian football while dreaming of making the transition from a boyhood Chelsea fan to a position of significance somewhere within the European game. The two men are limited in their ability to actually earn a place at the “top table” but both are extremely adept at persuading others, and in particular the media, that they have exactly what is needed. Ben is able to bamboozle us with technicalities which we don’t understand and so we instinctively assume that “if he knows this much he must be absolutely super- dooper with the mundane basics of football coaching”. And Wael carries the calm manner of a well educated successful businessman so, without actually examining the detail of what he says, we are easily convinced that is what he is. The reality is that neither has any serious achievements to his name but, through “credibility via association” for one and through family money for the other, both have been able to attain the significant role they covet. It may be that Ben and Wael are two similar personalities with comparable strengths and weaknesses who found an instant affinity when they were brought together.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2020 1:37:38 GMT
This is how I figure some things, I hope I'm wrong: BG appears to surrounding himself with mostly kids, newbies and youth. Ehmer apart, no captains or leaders. Even his assistant, no one had heard of before!? This translates to no one standing up to him or questioning his management, ergo 'yes' men. Wael, by appointing BG appears to be doing the same. Maybe it's a style of not bringing in anyone whom knows more than you do? So little,baldwin,westbroke,jaakola and every young player that ever played football are "yes men"? Is this like some weird stupidest post imaginable competition? If it is then your easily winning.
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,064
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Post by basel on Sept 29, 2020 3:38:47 GMT
This is how I figure some things, I hope I'm wrong: BG appears to surrounding himself with mostly kids, newbies and youth. Ehmer apart, no captains or leaders. Even his assistant, no one had heard of before!? This translates to no one standing up to him or questioning his management, ergo 'yes' men. Wael, by appointing BG appears to be doing the same. Maybe it's a style of not bringing in anyone whom knows more than you do? I think there maybe something in this.
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