Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2020 23:58:08 GMT
The central theme of BLM is a plea for racial equality.
Pure deflection tactics by the establishment to call them "marxists" ,its laughable really instead of tackling racism they demonise the movement.
mind you 7 or 8 middle class old white guys discussing it on here is hardly relevant to anything.
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Post by swissgas on Sept 14, 2020 0:27:45 GMT
These, I'm right and you're wrong debates are a trend I see happening across many social media platforms. I think it reflects the polarisation of political views across the globe. In the past the middle ground was a fertile one, these days it is shrinking rapidly leaving just binary left or right-wing views with intransigent positioning on both sides. All very sad and not good for quality discourse or democracy. It gets to a point where the discussions become predictable and boring, much like this thread. I have a feeling Jeff that polarization is exactly what certain forces in society want. My initial post proposed a middle way, a sensible compromise which concentrated on the racial issues we all want to address but left politics out of it. As usual, apart from Cheshire, not many want to discuss a reinvigoration of “Kick it Out” which I think could be an effective solution and would prevent division among football fans. But there is a strong body of opinion which says “we don’t like racism, BLM is against racism, the celebrities we follow are in favor so we’ll go along with it”. That is a slippery slope because so few take the time to discover what BLM actually stands for and when they do it will be too late to do anything about it.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2020 0:39:15 GMT
These, I'm right and you're wrong debates are a trend I see happening across many social media platforms. I think it reflects the polarisation of political views across the globe. In the past the middle ground was a fertile one, these days it is shrinking rapidly leaving just binary left or right-wing views with intransigent positioning on both sides. All very sad and not good for quality discourse or democracy. It gets to a point where the discussions become predictable and boring, much like this thread. fair comment jeff but there comes a point where lines HAVE TO be drawn. bring down capitalism/defund the police, marching around giving black panther salutes while calling black people co### ?
there is no middle ground, its right or wrong
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2020 0:40:24 GMT
The central theme of BLM is a plea for racial equality. Pure deflection tactics by the establishment to call them "marxists" ,its laughable really instead of tackling racism they demonise the movement. mind you 7 or 8 middle class old white guys discussing it on here is hardly relevant to anything.
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Post by swissgas on Sept 14, 2020 1:09:47 GMT
The central theme of BLM is a plea for racial equality. Pure deflection tactics by the establishment to call them "marxists" ,its laughable really instead of tackling racism they demonise the movement. mind you 7 or 8 middle class old white guys discussing it on here is hardly relevant to anything. Have you read up on BLM because I don’t think the word plea features in their vocabulary ? And their leaders are openly proud to call themselves trained Marxists. They are demanding change and if it doesn’t happen in the way they want it they say they will “burn down this system” You only have to watch the news to see that isn’t an empty threat. So don’t you think a reinvigorated “Kick it Out“ campaign is a better, non political, solution for football ?
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JeffNZ
Administrator
Jimmy Morgan
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,439
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Post by JeffNZ on Sept 14, 2020 1:15:50 GMT
These, I'm right and you're wrong debates are a trend I see happening across many social media platforms. I think it reflects the polarisation of political views across the globe. In the past the middle ground was a fertile one, these days it is shrinking rapidly leaving just binary left or right-wing views with intransigent positioning on both sides. All very sad and not good for quality discourse or democracy. It gets to a point where the discussions become predictable and boring, much like this thread. fair comment jeff but there comes a point where lines HAVE TO be drawn. bring down capitalism/defund the police, marching around giving black panther salutes while calling black people co### ?
there is no middle ground, its right or wrong
I think your post sort of proves my point. It's about perspective balanced against your own lens on life. Privileged whites (and I include myself as one of those) can never truly understand the historic struggles of those of black heritage. The unconscious bias is hard, very hard to shake off. I say this from experience. BLM is a rare opportunity to highlight there is still a very long way to go to eliminate institutional and societal racism. Small wonder those who belive in its core values are shouting long and hard. As has been stated elsewhere, simply highlighting a few bad apples in the movement is, in my view, unconscious bias personified.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2020 1:27:05 GMT
The central theme of BLM is a plea for racial equality. Pure deflection tactics by the establishment to call them "marxists" ,its laughable really instead of tackling racism they demonise the movement. mind you 7 or 8 middle class old white guys discussing it on here is hardly relevant to anything. Have you read up on BLM because I don’t think the word plea features in their vocabulary ? And their leaders are openly proud to call themselves trained Marxists. They are demanding change and if it doesn’t happen in the way they want it they say they will “burn down this system” You only have to watch the news to see that isn’t an empty threat. So don’t you think a reinvigorated “Kick it Out“ campaign is a better, non political, solution for football ? Karl marx believed that all human beings were equal and that we could have a society to reflect that. So quite similar to ethnic minority people dreaming the same dream. Of course we all know that human nature undermines marxism as well as racial equality but its a wonderful dream. greed rules though of course.
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JeffNZ
Administrator
Jimmy Morgan
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,439
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Post by JeffNZ on Sept 14, 2020 1:54:18 GMT
These, I'm right and you're wrong debates are a trend I see happening across many social media platforms. I think it reflects the polarisation of political views across the globe. In the past the middle ground was a fertile one, these days it is shrinking rapidly leaving just binary left or right-wing views with intransigent positioning on both sides. All very sad and not good for quality discourse or democracy. It gets to a point where the discussions become predictable and boring, much like this thread. I have a feeling Jeff that polarization is exactly what certain forces in society want. My initial post proposed a middle way, a sensible compromise which concentrated on the racial issues we all want to address but left politics out of it. As usual, apart from Cheshire, not many want to discuss a reinvigoration of “Kick it Out” which I think could be an effective solution and would prevent division among football fans. But there is a strong body of opinion which says “we don’t like racism, BLM is against racism, the celebrities we follow are in favor so we’ll go along with it”. That is a slippery slope because so few take the time to discover what BLM actually stands for and when they do it will be too late to do anything about it. Any initiative that highlights and eliminates racism from football, society or the establishment would be a good one in my view swissgas but I'd be hard-pressed to name any improvement brought about by the “Kick it Out” campaign so it would need a more than a major overall to be any different. Being the cynic that I am these days I always thought the “Kick it Out” campaign was a tick in the box exercise for FIFA and nothing more.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2020 2:19:31 GMT
fair comment jeff but there comes a point where lines HAVE TO be drawn. bring down capitalism/defund the police, marching around giving black panther salutes while calling black people co### ?
there is no middle ground, its right or wrong
I think your post sort of proves my point. It's about perspective balanced against your own lens on life. Privileged whites (and I include myself as one of those) can never truly understand the historic struggles of those of black heritage. The unconscious bias is hard, very hard to shake off. I say this from experience. BLM is a rare opportunity to highlight there is still a very long way to go to eliminate institutional and societal racism. Small wonder those who belive in its core values are shouting long and hard. As has been stated elsewhere, simply highlighting a few bad apples in the movement is, in my view, unconscious bias personified. fair dos jeff, personally i have no space for these nutters in society, as for privilege what i have ive earnt no favours given
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Post by swissgas on Sept 14, 2020 2:28:26 GMT
Have you read up on BLM because I don’t think the word plea features in their vocabulary ? And their leaders are openly proud to call themselves trained Marxists. They are demanding change and if it doesn’t happen in the way they want it they say they will “burn down this system” You only have to watch the news to see that isn’t an empty threat. So don’t you think a reinvigorated “Kick it Out“ campaign is a better, non political, solution for football ? Karl marx believed that all human beings were equal and that we could have a society to reflect that. So quite similar to ethnic minority people dreaming the same dream. Of course we all know that human nature undermines marxism as well as racial equality but its a wonderful dream. greed rules though of course. Yes I have sympathy with much of Marx theory, certainly about human equality and also including aspects of public ownership of certain industries. But I think we’ve gone beyond greed. I think those groups which have hijacked and are funding BLM have all the monetary wealth they need. Their objective is to disrupt and dismantle society as we know it but unlike the Marxists or Communists from the past there is little to say what they plan to put in it’s place. I think the original founders of BLM have been used as a vehicle and will be discarded at some point in the future. The reasons for thinking this are many and varied and probably not of interest here but if there is a way in which football can come up with an alternative to BLM then I believe it would be better for our sport.
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Post by swissgas on Sept 14, 2020 2:30:31 GMT
I have a feeling Jeff that polarization is exactly what certain forces in society want. My initial post proposed a middle way, a sensible compromise which concentrated on the racial issues we all want to address but left politics out of it. As usual, apart from Cheshire, not many want to discuss a reinvigoration of “Kick it Out” which I think could be an effective solution and would prevent division among football fans. But there is a strong body of opinion which says “we don’t like racism, BLM is against racism, the celebrities we follow are in favor so we’ll go along with it”. That is a slippery slope because so few take the time to discover what BLM actually stands for and when they do it will be too late to do anything about it. Any initiative that highlights and eliminates racism from football, society or the establishment would be a good one in my view swissgas but I'd be hard-pressed to name any improvement brought about by the “Kick it Out” campaign so it would need a more than a major overall to be any different. Being the cynic that I am these days I always thought the “Kick it Out” campaign was a tick in the box exercise for FIFA and nothing more. I thought exactly the same and one look at the website tells you it’s jobs for the boys. But like with BRSC, if the will and money are there that can be changed.
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,064
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Knee bend
Sept 14, 2020 5:15:32 GMT
via mobile
Post by basel on Sept 14, 2020 5:15:32 GMT
The central theme of BLM is a plea for racial equality. Pure deflection tactics by the establishment to call them "marxists" ,its laughable really instead of tackling racism they demonise the movement. mind you 7 or 8 middle class old white guys discussing it on here is hardly relevant to anything. Two or three working class amongst us Vertigo.A class and colour that are even lower down the pecking order than black working class,but I can't hear the right on middle class white cheering them on.They really do look down on the WWC.On BLM discussions on tv or radio I laugh and ironically cheer on hearing "and i include the white working class in this" said as an aside,an add on,after a ten minute talk on the plight of black people.Then not to mention them again - WWC - for the rest of the 30 minute programme. Too many people feel left behind in our UK.The confidence to get curious enough to 'have ago' at life seems shot to pieces for many.It's what has to happen ( to have ago),because the virtue signalling darlings of Britain will do their 'look at me ,ar'nt I good' or eg'that concludes todays Uni lecture,vote Labour students'thing,then go home to leafy suburbia and count their money.
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,064
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Knee bend
Sept 14, 2020 5:44:04 GMT
via mobile
Post by basel on Sept 14, 2020 5:44:04 GMT
I see a radar tower,that was used in the Battle of Britain,has been given listed status. Will this be acceptable to BLM, because Winston Churchill thought the towers a good tool in detecting the Luftwaffes route,as they popped over to bomb eg Bristol?
The Luftwaffe being Nazi. Real ones.
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RiversGas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,064
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Post by RiversGas on Sept 14, 2020 6:16:42 GMT
Don't know which match it was on some sporting highlights I watched the other night, but the referee blew the whistle to signal time for players to take the knee, and the team that was to kick off did. Some players started the game whilst others took the knee. Does this indicate that some players were racist, or just thought there was a game of football to be played?
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Post by Global Gas on Sept 14, 2020 6:48:01 GMT
I think the point I made earlier about the bad minority is held as the view and desire of the majority is part of a larger problem our society has. This is evident all over media and probably most prevalent on social media. I think of things I've seen such as "You support BLM? You must want to defund the police!" or "You voted for BREXIT? You must be racist!"
It doesn't help to move society forward. It just seeks to divide. The EFL's view on taking the knee is they "will support players who want to take the knee in support of the BLM message."
I think the keyword here is "message" not movement. I'd like to think that we all want an equal and fair society and support that message and can detach that from what radical elements of the wider movement are doing/saying.
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Post by Global Gas on Sept 14, 2020 6:49:58 GMT
Karl marx believed that all human beings were equal and that we could have a society to reflect that. So quite similar to ethnic minority people dreaming the same dream. Of course we all know that human nature undermines marxism as well as racial equality but its a wonderful dream. greed rules though of course. Yes I have sympathy with much of Marx theory, certainly about human equality and also including aspects of public ownership of certain industries. But I think we’ve gone beyond greed. I think those groups which have hijacked and are funding BLM have all the monetary wealth they need. Their objective is to disrupt and dismantle society as we know it but unlike the Marxists or Communists from the past there is little to say what they plan to put in it’s place. I think the original founders of BLM have been used as a vehicle and will be discarded at some point in the future. The reasons for thinking this are many and varied and probably not of interest here but if there is a way in which football can come up with an alternative to BLM then I believe it would be better for our sport. What do you think of the "Not today, not any day." campaign?
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Post by CabbagePatchBlues on Sept 14, 2020 7:10:59 GMT
In that case it'll continue until the coin drops Yea but there's no need to chuck it! Haha! You been listening to Trump again, or Boris Johnson perhaps? You certainly waffle like them. I was actually going to write "until the thick f*ckers get the message" but didn't want to patronize.
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Post by fatherjackhackett on Sept 14, 2020 7:59:51 GMT
I think this thread has proven that there are people out there that associate the worst of us with the majority of us. Are some of the BLM protesters Marxist? Yes! Does that make the majority of the movement Marxist? No! Are some football fans C*Ty fans? Yes! Are we all C*ity fans? No! Apply this type of philosophy to one situation but not the other highlights the problem. Is taking the knee changing anything physically? No. Is it telling people out there that "we see you and recognise your struggle."? Yes, it does. But, unfortunately, it's also identified friends, family, work colleagues, fellow Gasheads, who don't want to acknowledge the problem of systematic racism in our society. good point but it comes down to a personal thing ? do i need to ;take a knee; or WANT to take a knee knowing
lovely sacha and her marching mates say or think i should ? NOT A CHANCE, ALL YOURE DOING IS PANDERING TO THE DILDOS,
As for ; it's also identified friends, family, work colleagues, fellow Gasheads, who don't want to acknowledge the problem of systematic racism in our society.; absolute tosh
Not a single person is forcing you to take a knee. No one, nada, zilch. All that’s being asked is that different opinions and viewpoints are respected. It’s not pandering to anyone. You can choose to accept that and just politely ignore it, or make a song and dance about and be a bit of an arse. Your choice. And as for Rovers fans not being political, I’m sure you will happily join me in calling for an end to the shameful ‘F*ck the City and the IRA’ nonsense.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2020 8:14:07 GMT
Haha, is everyone OK? Grubby little island.
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Rex
Predictions League
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Post by Rex on Sept 14, 2020 8:39:12 GMT
On a slightly different note, I was amused/frustrated to be chatting to some old mates on Friday, many of them who have/still do enjoy a 'bit of a tear up' on a Saturday. Mostly middle aged white men, they see no irony in thinking the police should leave them alone to 'enjoy their fun' but also think the police should be 'kicking the f**k out of' BLM protesters and anyone who pulls down a statue. Go figure
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