syg
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,008
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Post by syg on Sept 12, 2020 19:01:18 GMT
This appears to be standard before every match, will we continue doing it until people forget why they are doing it, or have they already forgotten why and are just doing it in the same way that they do up one set of shoelaces first?
Time to knock it on the head, it's now achieving nothing, whether it's ever achieved anything is another matter.
Of course nobody wants to take the decision to stop due to PR, so it will end due to fatigue or the anarchist go fund me blm page telling people they can stop now.
What a stupid state of affairs.
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,064
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Post by basel on Sept 12, 2020 19:08:04 GMT
I don't want anything to do with it.
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 313
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Post by jackthegas on Sept 12, 2020 19:38:42 GMT
Bristol is a multicultural city. The crowd at Rovers is not representative of this. If this forum is also predominantly white, male and middle aged then I think you to recognise that perhaps it's not wholly relevant if you feel a little jaded by a short lived protest.
Some of the political views of the BLM group may be far removed from your own, as indeed they are from mine. But, at the moment, taking a knee clearly represents a very specific sentiment. Mainly, that black lives matter as much as white ones.
How many black managers are there in English football? How many black coaches? How many black administrators? This is institutional racism and the protest should continue until people recognise this and until things start to change.
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syg
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,008
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Knee bend
Sept 12, 2020 19:52:21 GMT
via mobile
Post by syg on Sept 12, 2020 19:52:21 GMT
Bristol is a multicultural city. The crowd at Rovers is not representative of this. If this forum is also predominantly white, male and middle aged then I think you to recognise that perhaps it's not wholly relevant if you feel a little jaded by a short lived protest. Some of the political views of the BLM group may be far removed from your own, as indeed they are from mine. But, at the moment, taking a knee clearly represents a very specific sentiment. Mainly, that black lives matter as much as white ones. How many black managers are there in English football? How many black coaches? How many black administrators? This is institutional racism and the protest should continue until people recognise this and until things start to change. I'm not jaded, it's just pointless. Anybody without psychiatric issues knows that all lives matter, a knee bend won't any difference to their issues, they need professional help. Institutional racism, again a load of sports people taking a knee is going to make diddly squat difference to this, institutional racism needs to be dealt with by the institutes involved.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 19:55:23 GMT
Bristol is a multicultural city. The crowd at Rovers is not representative of this. If this forum is also predominantly white, male and middle aged then I think you to recognise that perhaps it's not wholly relevant if you feel a little jaded by a short lived protest. Some of the political views of the BLM group may be far removed from your own, as indeed they are from mine. But, at the moment, taking a knee clearly represents a very specific sentiment. Mainly, that black lives matter as much as white ones. How many black managers are there in English football? How many black coaches? How many black administrators? This is institutional racism and the protest should continue until people recognise this and until things start to change. Can you please highlight at what point and in what way people with skin that isn't white are being discriminated against in their attempts to become football managers or administrators? Or are you arguing for quotas?
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 313
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Knee bend
Sept 12, 2020 19:55:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by jackthegas on Sept 12, 2020 19:55:52 GMT
Bristol is a multicultural city. The crowd at Rovers is not representative of this. If this forum is also predominantly white, male and middle aged then I think you to recognise that perhaps it's not wholly relevant if you feel a little jaded by a short lived protest. Some of the political views of the BLM group may be far removed from your own, as indeed they are from mine. But, at the moment, taking a knee clearly represents a very specific sentiment. Mainly, that black lives matter as much as white ones. How many black managers are there in English football? How many black coaches? How many black administrators? This is institutional racism and the protest should continue until people recognise this and until things start to change. I'm not jaded, it's just pointless. Anybody without psychiatric issues knows that all lives matter, a knee bend won't any difference to their issues, they need professional help. Institutional racism, again a load of sports people taking a knee is going to make diddly squat difference to this, institutional racism needs to be dealt with by the institutes involved. Which is not what some preeminent black sports men and women are saying. Different sport, but Michael Holding for one
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 313
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Knee bend
Sept 12, 2020 20:01:06 GMT
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Post by jackthegas on Sept 12, 2020 20:01:06 GMT
Bristol is a multicultural city. The crowd at Rovers is not representative of this. If this forum is also predominantly white, male and middle aged then I think you to recognise that perhaps it's not wholly relevant if you feel a little jaded by a short lived protest. Some of the political views of the BLM group may be far removed from your own, as indeed they are from mine. But, at the moment, taking a knee clearly represents a very specific sentiment. Mainly, that black lives matter as much as white ones. How many black managers are there in English football? How many black coaches? How many black administrators? This is institutional racism and the protest should continue until people recognise this and until things start to change. Can you please highlight at what point and in what way people with skin that isn't white are being discriminated against in their attempts to become football managers or administrators? Or are you arguing for quotas? The fact that there are virtually no black managers suggests an unconscious bias in those hiring, does it not? Personally, I am not for quotas, because if you are hiring and you have an unconscious bias then a candidate you have prejudged is unlikely to be successful anyway.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 20:12:57 GMT
Can you please highlight at what point and in what way people with skin that isn't white are being discriminated against in their attempts to become football managers or administrators? Or are you arguing for quotas? The fact that there are virtually no black managers suggests an unconscious bias in those hiring, does it not?Personally, I am not for quotas, because if you are hiring and you have an unconscious bias then a candidate you have prejudged is unlikely to be successful anyway. Does it? You've made that accusation so the burden is on you to demonstrate it. I would have thought that candidates were judged on their merits, but before we can even have that discussion you'll have to give me your figures for applicants based on skin colour, then we can understand precisely what it is that we are talking about here. If there's racism somewhere let's work together to root it out.
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Knee bend
Sept 12, 2020 20:21:46 GMT
via mobile
Post by o2o2bo2ba on Sept 12, 2020 20:21:46 GMT
Not many Asian, Inuits (are you allowed to say that now?), Aboriginal, Indigenous Indians, Native American or namadic tribesmen either.
But their lives matter too. As well as all lives.
This started about a political Marxist agenda..... and whether you agree or disagree with this idealogy, well, that's completely up to you, but representation should not be allowed to distract into sport imo. Nothing political should be, imo.
Sport, especially football is the most non racist form of elitism. If you're good, I mean really good to excelling, it just doesn't matter where you're from or whom you are, you're gonna be in demand.
And we've seen so much diversity in football with religious belief, creed, race, sexuality and gender.
The same applies to management. It isn't about opportunities, there have been many ethnic diversity in football management, but like anything else in football: success demand results.
If you want to bend your knee, good luck to you. But judgement either way should not be given for those whom choose not to for what ever reason.
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 313
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Post by jackthegas on Sept 12, 2020 20:35:28 GMT
The fact that there are virtually no black managers suggests an unconscious bias in those hiring, does it not?Personally, I am not for quotas, because if you are hiring and you have an unconscious bias then a candidate you have prejudged is unlikely to be successful anyway. Does it? You've made that accusation so the burden is on you to demonstrate it. I would have thought that candidates were judged on their merits, but before we can even have that discussion you'll have to give me your figures for applicants based on skin colour, then we can understand precisely what it is that we are talking about here. If there's racism somewhere let's work together to root it out. Your post completely misses the point of an unconscious bias. I think it's irrefutable that the number of black managers are proportionately low. Do you agree? If it's not as a result of racism, either conscious, or not then why are there fewer? It's not just an issue in football either. BAME people are desperately underrepresented in the boardroom of UK companies. Why is this in your view? Is it because BAME candidates aren't as capable as their white counterparts, in which case, what does that say about opportunities given to BAME people and education in this country? Or is it because hiring managers have an unconscious bias? I don't really see a third option here.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 20:41:53 GMT
Does it? You've made that accusation so the burden is on you to demonstrate it. I would have thought that candidates were judged on their merits, but before we can even have that discussion you'll have to give me your figures for applicants based on skin colour, then we can understand precisely what it is that we are talking about here. If there's racism somewhere let's work together to root it out. Your post completely misses the point of an unconscious bias. I think it's irrefutable that the number of black managers are proportionately low. Do you agree? If it's not as a result of racism, either conscious, or not then why are there fewer? It's not just an issue in football either. BAME people are desperately underrepresented in the boardroom of UK companies. Why is this in your view? Is it because BAME candidates aren't as capable as their white counterparts, in which case, what does that say about opportunities given to BAME people and education in this country? Or is it because hiring managers have an unconscious bias? I don't really see a third option here. Proportionately low compared to what? To help move this along, so that we don't play 'Post ping pong' for the next hour, I'm guessing that you think that the number of black players should translate into black coaches and managers? If so, then just give me your data for applicants and their success rates. I can explain why bot BAME individuals, and females for that matter, and white people from particular socio-economic groups, aren't represented at board level in numbers that reflect their % of the population, but that's pure politics. If epping says it's good then we'll do that discussion.
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 313
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Knee bend
Sept 12, 2020 21:04:09 GMT
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Rex likes this
Post by jackthegas on Sept 12, 2020 21:04:09 GMT
Your post completely misses the point of an unconscious bias. I think it's irrefutable that the number of black managers are proportionately low. Do you agree? If it's not as a result of racism, either conscious, or not then why are there fewer? It's not just an issue in football either. BAME people are desperately underrepresented in the boardroom of UK companies. Why is this in your view? Is it because BAME candidates aren't as capable as their white counterparts, in which case, what does that say about opportunities given to BAME people and education in this country? Or is it because hiring managers have an unconscious bias? I don't really see a third option here. Proportionately low compared to what? To help move this along, so that we don't play 'Post ping pong' for the next hour, I'm guessing that you think that the number of black players should translate into black coaches and managers? If so, then just give me your data for applicants and their success rates. I can explain why bot BAME individuals, and females for that matter, and white people from particular socio-economic groups, aren't represented at board level in numbers that reflect their % of the population, but that's pure politics. If epping says it's good then we'll do that discussion. I don't agree that you need statistics on the number of applicants to demonstrate that it's disproportionately harder for a black person to become a manger. The number of black men given the opportunity over the last 20 years should be evidence enough in my opinion. I do not think we will find a consensus so let's move on.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 21:21:09 GMT
Proportionately low compared to what? To help move this along, so that we don't play 'Post ping pong' for the next hour, I'm guessing that you think that the number of black players should translate into black coaches and managers? If so, then just give me your data for applicants and their success rates. I can explain why bot BAME individuals, and females for that matter, and white people from particular socio-economic groups, aren't represented at board level in numbers that reflect their % of the population, but that's pure politics. If epping says it's good then we'll do that discussion. I don't agree that you need statistics on the number of applicants to demonstrate that it's disproportionately harder for a black person to become a manger. The number of black men given the opportunity over the last 20 years should be evidence enough in my opinion. I do not think we will find a consensus so let's move on. How else are you going to know who has even applied if you don't have that data? So now you are saying 'given the opportunity' so you are arguing for quotas after all. OK then. You do realise that you've just removed from the employer the ability to recruit based on competence, don't you?
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 313
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Knee bend
Sept 12, 2020 21:28:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by jackthegas on Sept 12, 2020 21:28:26 GMT
I don't agree that you need statistics on the number of applicants to demonstrate that it's disproportionately harder for a black person to become a manger. The number of black men given the opportunity over the last 20 years should be evidence enough in my opinion. I do not think we will find a consensus so let's move on. How else are you going to know who has even applied if you don't have that data? So now you are saying 'given the opportunity' so you are arguing for quotas after all. OK then. You do realise that you've just removed from the employer the ability to recruit based on competence, don't you? A final comment for clarification. I am not arguing for quotas.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 21:31:28 GMT
How else are you going to know who has even applied if you don't have that data? So now you are saying 'given the opportunity' so you are arguing for quotas after all. OK then. You do realise that you've just removed from the employer the ability to recruit based on competence, don't you? A final comment for clarification. I am not arguing for quotas. But you want people employed regardless of ability, based purely on ethnicity. Or have I misunderstood what you are saying?
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Post by otleygas on Sept 12, 2020 22:13:46 GMT
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Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,287
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Post by Rex on Sept 12, 2020 22:20:19 GMT
I don't think there is any point at all in 'taking a knee'. However, Bambi, not for the first time, is arguing for the sake of it. I don't agree with quotas and I don't know the answer, but we all know that black managers are under represented in the game, just as black players were in the 70s.
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Post by swissgas on Sept 12, 2020 22:36:56 GMT
BLM is plagued with frightening intolerance and an apparent willingness to use oppression to fulfill its aims.
Using token BLM symbolism is, IMO, an alibi exercise which is divisive and unlikely to achieve improved racial diversity in our sport . To have a better chance of bringing about positive change wouldn’t it be preferable for football to make a serious effort to reinvigorate the “Kick It Out” campaign ? There must be many potential sponsors which see benefits in involvement with this issue but are uncomfortable with BLM . They would surely welcome participation in an apolitical movement.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 23:01:42 GMT
That piece takes the exact same position as Jack has adopted, it's claiming that one group is denied opportunity without any evidence whatsoever, it just looks at outcome and claims that's the evidence. If you and Jack have evidence of discrimination then let's have it so that we can get it out in the open. But you don't, you are just assuming that all participants from all social groups who play a particular professional sport have an equal interest in going in to management when they retire from playing. That may be the case, it may not, I have no idea, this is why these things should be researched and investigated properly before accusations are thrown around. No Rex, I'm not arguing for the sake of it at all, jack made a claim but when asked to either explain or justify it couldn't or wouldn't.
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Post by canberragas on Sept 13, 2020 3:05:12 GMT
We need a thumbs down button. I can email you articles on unconscious bias operating in all aspects of life; if you could be bothered to read them!
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