warehamgas
Predictions League
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Post by warehamgas on Aug 16, 2020 16:15:25 GMT
Having had lots of good news this Summer over our debts, although lots are interpreting it as a paper exercise only I thought I’d ask the question amid all the CV stuff about sustainability.
What does sustainability mean to you? What does it mean in today’s football? What does BRFC being sustainable look like? Is it... matching expenditure to income each year so that you balance the books? Is it... making a small loss that you know you can cover each year? Is it... setting a budget in June trying to keep to it but not worrying if you go outside it? Is it... something else?
I’d suggest that sustainability for me means the first, matching expenditure to income. But if you have a very rich person who says that they will cover the loss does that make it sustainable because he’s basically saying “I will cover the losses for the next few years” so making it sustainable? I’d like to think you have a plan to: increase your income from match day football, increase the income streams from non-football areas, to use your resources (ground, training facilities, players) to generate more income on a day-to-day basis so that your income over a period of time grows and is not so heavily dependent upon match day income. I’m sure there are other areas, commercial sales, advertising, etc that I’ve not thought of which could really push up your income. I’d also suggest if the salary cap works it will be easier to calculate your player expenditure than it has ever been.
So what does sustainability mean in reality?
UTG!
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,255
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Post by kingswood Polak on Aug 16, 2020 17:24:59 GMT
I will try to use as few words as possible. We are fecked unless we have someone to cover the losses. I can’t see WAQ writing of another 20 mill. I have a feeling it has been done to make us look a better buy. We shall see. Soon enough
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2020 17:49:55 GMT
I have a feeling it has been done to make us look a better buy. We shall see. Soon enough News in October?
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Post by swissgas on Aug 16, 2020 22:03:25 GMT
In reality, in Rovers terms, I think sustainability is making a manageable loss every year which can be comfortably covered from the owners surplus cash resources.
If you are able to take a great leap of faith you will be confident that Wael has sufficient surplus cash resources to pay for the training ground, cover the current trading losses which must be at an all time high and has the management ability to restructure the club so he can cover future trading losses from his surplus income.
If you have any misgivings about this there is a danger you will spoil “the ride” for others if you express them so it may be best to keep quiet at the moment.
But it would be interesting to know why Companies House still does not show the capitalization of the the BRFC 1883 Ltd loan and why the charge over the Mem in favour of Dwane Sports Ltd remains in place ?
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Post by a more piratey game on Aug 16, 2020 23:27:27 GMT
But it would be interesting to know why Companies House still does not show the capitalization of the the BRFC 1883 Ltd loan and why the charge over the Mem in favour of Dwane Sports Ltd remains in place ? Have these questions been asked of anyone at the club - they seem simple to answer?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 8:38:39 GMT
But it would be interesting to know why Companies House still does not show the capitalization of the the BRFC 1883 Ltd loan and why the charge over the Mem in favour of Dwane Sports Ltd remains in place ? Have these questions been asked of anyone at the club - they seem simple to answer? When is the Annual Return due? They may be planning to show those adjustments then. In a tightly held company that is entirely normal.
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bondigas
Joined: December 2017
Posts: 369
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Post by bondigas on Aug 17, 2020 9:08:41 GMT
Completion statement for Bristol Rovers (1883) Ltd was filed on 10/8/2020 at Companies House, shows all the shares now held by a dummy, very unusual term to use unless your covering up something. Dwane Sports Ltd still have a charge over the Mem, it doesn't appear the holiday brochure statement made last April was accurate that the club was debt free. Not sure anyone at the club would be brave enough to give a straight answer, turnover of people at the club is bad enough as it is.
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Post by a more piratey game on Aug 17, 2020 9:23:51 GMT
Not sure anyone at the club would be brave enough to give a straight answer, turnover of people at the club is bad enough as it is. not sure I agree with that - I've found Starnes pretty straightforward in recent interviews the only one he really ballsed up was the one with 20p, and then only when questioned about Fruity things I think
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Post by a more piratey game on Aug 17, 2020 9:25:09 GMT
Dwane Sports Ltd still have a charge over the Mem, it doesn't appear the holiday brochure statement made last April was accurate that the club was debt free a charge isn't a debt though, is it - or am I misunderstanding you please?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 9:48:56 GMT
Dwane Sports Ltd still have a charge over the Mem, it doesn't appear the holiday brochure statement made last April was accurate that the club was debt free a charge isn't a debt though, is it - or am I misunderstanding you please? It sounds strange. If the share capital value reflects the conversion of debt to equity then any charge placed by a company owned by the shareholders on a company owned by the same shareholders is in effect a charge from yourself on your own assets....😱🤣
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warehamgas
Predictions League
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Post by warehamgas on Aug 17, 2020 11:14:51 GMT
Sounds like the bottom line over the debts remain, which is kind of what others were saying when it was announced back along. Thanks Swiss for suggesting that sustainability is the owner’s ability to cover a small loss accumulated each year. (I hope I interpreted that correctly) I’d prefer the matching of income and expenditure but I guess that’s sort of unachievable. But owners able to cover the “small” debt makes it sustainable. I guess once the information stored at Companies House matches the understanding we thought we had following the big announcement occurs then it will answer some remaining concerns. UTG!
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eppinggas
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Ian Alexander
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Post by eppinggas on Aug 17, 2020 12:44:31 GMT
Sustainability. Short term (2-3 years): Wael covers losses of circa £2-£3mil a year. We're lucky to have him. Medium/Long term: Even if Wael invests in the 'right things' - if we stay at the Memorial Stadium, it is pretty difficult to envisage us breaking even. Wael has not got limitless funds. Therefore a long term sustainable business model implies we need a new stadium. I wonder if this has been discussed before?
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Post by swissgas on Aug 17, 2020 14:42:55 GMT
As bondigas has posted above, the Confirmation Statement ( Annual Return) filed last week is a mess.
It looks as though 63400 more shares have been allocated since the last statement of capital on April 6th. If those shares have been allocated to Wael (Dwane Sports Ltd) then it may be that there will be an entry in the share premium account on the balance sheet to cover this. If he has capitalized £ 18.4 million of debt then he would have paid £ 290.22 for each of the 63400 shares which is a premium of £ 290.12 over the nominal value of £ 0.10 each. If he has done it this way then his (Dwane Sports Ltd) stake has increased by less than 1% so has a negligible effect on the other shareholders. Which begs the question of why he chose to bring up the issue of diluting the Supporters Club shareholding in his June statement ?
I'm just speculating here about how the announced capitalization may have been carried out but the charge over the Mem is definitely still showing at Companies House as of today.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2020 14:27:11 GMT
The strangest thing of all is that I can't find any posts on either forum offering apologies to the small number of people who were desperately urging caution and trying to explain that the club hadn't suddenly become 'debt free'.
Ref the charge as mentioned above, unless anybody can offer a better explanation, my best guess is that it's there to ensure that if it all goes belly up then that asset is secure for the owner/s.
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Peter Parker
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Richard Walker
You have been sentenced to DELETION!
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Post by Peter Parker on Aug 19, 2020 14:57:56 GMT
As bondigas has posted above, the Confirmation Statement ( Annual Return) filed last week is a mess. It looks as though 63400 more shares have been allocated since the last statement of capital on April 6th. If those shares have been allocated to Wael (Dwane Sports Ltd) then it may be that there will be an entry in the share premium account on the balance sheet to cover this. If he has capitalized £ 18.4 million of debt then he would have paid £ 290.22 for each of the 63400 shares which is a premium of £ 290.12 over the nominal value of £ 0.10 each. If he has done it this way then his (Dwane Sports Ltd) stake has increased by less than 1% so has a negligible effect on the other shareholders. Which begs the question of why he chose to bring up the issue of diluting the Supporters Club shareholding in his June statement ? I'm just speculating here about how the announced capitalization may have been carried out but the charge over the Mem is definitely still showing at Companies House as of today. Those are th share scheme shares that wern't previously alloctaed that teh SC weremoaning about arent they? edit or the new additional shares purchased by the SC since the last update
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,255
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Post by kingswood Polak on Aug 19, 2020 16:11:26 GMT
As bondigas has posted above, the Confirmation Statement ( Annual Return) filed last week is a mess. It looks as though 63400 more shares have been allocated since the last statement of capital on April 6th. If those shares have been allocated to Wael (Dwane Sports Ltd) then it may be that there will be an entry in the share premium account on the balance sheet to cover this. If he has capitalized £ 18.4 million of debt then he would have paid £ 290.22 for each of the 63400 shares which is a premium of £ 290.12 over the nominal value of £ 0.10 each. If he has done it this way then his (Dwane Sports Ltd) stake has increased by less than 1% so has a negligible effect on the other shareholders. Which begs the question of why he chose to bring up the issue of diluting the Supporters Club shareholding in his June statement ? I'm just speculating here about how the announced capitalization may have been carried out but the charge over the Mem is definitely still showing at Companies House as of today. My own theory, based upon nothing but speculation as is the norm on most forum ITK posts, is that this plus to training ground, is part of ongoing negotiations to make us look a better proposal and could be part of the fruity negotiations but, as usual, I could be wrong
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Post by Curly Wurly on Aug 19, 2020 16:25:29 GMT
As bondigas has posted above, the Confirmation Statement ( Annual Return) filed last week is a mess. It looks as though 63400 more shares have been allocated since the last statement of capital on April 6th. If those shares have been allocated to Wael (Dwane Sports Ltd) then it may be that there will be an entry in the share premium account on the balance sheet to cover this. If he has capitalized £ 18.4 million of debt then he would have paid £ 290.22 for each of the 63400 shares which is a premium of £ 290.12 over the nominal value of £ 0.10 each. If he has done it this way then his (Dwane Sports Ltd) stake has increased by less than 1% so has a negligible effect on the other shareholders. Which begs the question of why he chose to bring up the issue of diluting the Supporters Club shareholding in his June statement ? I'm just speculating here about how the announced capitalization may have been carried out but the charge over the Mem is definitely still showing at Companies House as of today. Those are th share scheme shares that wern't previously alloctaed that teh SC weremoaning about arent they? edit or the new additional shares purchased by the SC since the last update So "Dummy" is a critique, rather than a default?
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Post by swissgas on Aug 19, 2020 19:40:43 GMT
As bondigas has posted above, the Confirmation Statement ( Annual Return) filed last week is a mess. It looks as though 63400 more shares have been allocated since the last statement of capital on April 6th. If those shares have been allocated to Wael (Dwane Sports Ltd) then it may be that there will be an entry in the share premium account on the balance sheet to cover this. If he has capitalized £ 18.4 million of debt then he would have paid £ 290.22 for each of the 63400 shares which is a premium of £ 290.12 over the nominal value of £ 0.10 each. If he has done it this way then his (Dwane Sports Ltd) stake has increased by less than 1% so has a negligible effect on the other shareholders. Which begs the question of why he chose to bring up the issue of diluting the Supporters Club shareholding in his June statement ? I'm just speculating here about how the announced capitalization may have been carried out but the charge over the Mem is definitely still showing at Companies House as of today. Those are th share scheme shares that wern't previously alloctaed that teh SC weremoaning about arent they? edit or the new additional shares purchased by the SC since the last update On April 6th 36 600 shares in BRFC 1883 Ltd were allotted and we were told these were in respect of the SC Share Scheme. But according to the Confirmation statement a further 63 400 shares have been allotted between April 6th and August 1st 2020 although we don't know to whom. In the case Of BRFC Ltd, Companies House shows that on June 30th 16 490 700 shares were allotted at £1 each which presumably is in respect of the capitalization of the loan between BRFC 1883 Ltd and BRFC Ltd. As Bamber has pointed out, that is a paper transaction with BRFC 1883 Ltd cancelling it's loan to BRFC Ltd in exchange for receiving new shares in BRFC Ltd.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Aug 20, 2020 15:52:29 GMT
There's a longer term aspect to sustainability as well which is the ability to replicate/grow your supporter base in subsequent generations.
For all the poor financial management the heart of the issue for lower league clubs in my part of the world like Bury, Rochdale, Oldham, Macc etc is that their fanbase is dying out and the younger generation get eaten up by the Big Manchester clubs. Take my boss - big Bury fan, from 3 generations of Bury fans, lives in the town. Both his kids support Man United and couldn't care less about Bury. In fact they think he's a weird eccentric for caring when there's 2 Champions League quality clubs on the doorstep.
That's obviously not a direct issue for Rovers. But the point is there are issues of structural sustainability as well.
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Post by swissgas on Aug 20, 2020 22:46:29 GMT
As bondigas has posted above, the Confirmation Statement ( Annual Return) filed last week is a mess. It looks as though 63400 more shares have been allocated since the last statement of capital on April 6th. If those shares have been allocated to Wael (Dwane Sports Ltd) then it may be that there will be an entry in the share premium account on the balance sheet to cover this. If he has capitalized £ 18.4 million of debt then he would have paid £ 290.22 for each of the 63400 shares which is a premium of £ 290.12 over the nominal value of £ 0.10 each. If he has done it this way then his (Dwane Sports Ltd) stake has increased by less than 1% so has a negligible effect on the other shareholders. Which begs the question of why he chose to bring up the issue of diluting the Supporters Club shareholding in his June statement ? I'm just speculating here about how the announced capitalization may have been carried out but the charge over the Mem is definitely still showing at Companies House as of today. My own theory, based upon nothing but speculation as is the norm on most forum ITK posts, is that this plus to training ground, is part of ongoing negotiations to make us look a better proposal and could be part of the fruity negotiations but, as usual, I could be wrong You could be right, anything is possible, but we have to hope Wael is taking good advice because it might backfire. If a potential investor is told the club is worth 18 million because that is how much has apparently been capitalized they may point out that Port Vale, with their reasonably good 19000 capacity stadium, was sold for around 5 million last year. And if a potential investor is told any deal involves the club committing to training at Almondsbury and paying x per year in rent to Dwane Colony Ltd, because y million has already been spent on it, they may say that doesn’t make commercial sense for the club because perfectly good leased facilities are available costing only 50% of x.
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