irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jul 22, 2020 15:54:59 GMT
Maybe there's a way it could be done but I've yet to see a convincing case.
If it's just FFP you are talking about then it's not difficult. Just make a list of income that qualifies and stick to it. Then, don't mess around for years. Part of the reason City have walked away with a 10m Euro fine is that some of the allegations are more than 5 years old, but that's also tied in with them obstructing the investigations, which they've been found guilty of, they've even been arguing about what the term '5 years' actually means. UEFA have been totally outgunned legally here. The whole thing is a complete farce Citeh are the perfect example of the club that FFP should be preventing from achieving their level of bought success. Not even the biggest club in their own City. It's not a hill I particularly want to die on. I don't have a problem with people trying things but can you really say that FFP has been a success or could be a success? Even in cases where clubs have been found guilty it doesn't seem to have done them any particular harm - Chelsea barely slipped below Champions League standard for a season or 2 and have just gone on a huge spending spree that will in all likelihood make them title contenders again. Barca were barely even touched by the sanctions. So I'm not sure even when it works it's particularly effective.
You sound like you're basically happy with the idea of FFP protecting the existing hierarchy from noveau riche up and comers. I'm not sure where I stand on that really. On the one hand it seems instinctively wrong to have a rule that is essentially about isolating an elite set of clubs from genuine competition that might knock them off their perch. On the other hand it's hard to justify the kind of money that is spent to do that either.
I guess my issue with FFP is that however it's applied I can't see how it does anything to address the parity issue which is what I see as the main problem with elite club football.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2020 16:25:11 GMT
If it's just FFP you are talking about then it's not difficult. Just make a list of income that qualifies and stick to it. Then, don't mess around for years. Part of the reason City have walked away with a 10m Euro fine is that some of the allegations are more than 5 years old, but that's also tied in with them obstructing the investigations, which they've been found guilty of, they've even been arguing about what the term '5 years' actually means. UEFA have been totally outgunned legally here. The whole thing is a complete farce Citeh are the perfect example of the club that FFP should be preventing from achieving their level of bought success. Not even the biggest club in their own City. It's not a hill I particularly want to die on. I don't have a problem with people trying things but can you really say that FFP has been a success or could be a success? Even in cases where clubs have been found guilty it doesn't seem to have done them any particular harm - Chelsea barely slipped below Champions League standard for a season or 2 and have just gone on a huge spending spree that will in all likelihood make them title contenders again. Barca were barely even touched by the sanctions. So I'm not sure even when it works it's particularly effective.
You sound like you're basically happy with the idea of FFP protecting the existing hierarchy from noveau riche up and comers. I'm not sure where I stand on that really. On the one hand it seems instinctively wrong to have a rule that is essentially about isolating an elite set of clubs from genuine competition that might knock them off their perch. On the other hand it's hard to justify the kind of money that is spent to do that either.
I guess my issue with FFP is that however it's applied I can't see how it does anything to address the parity issue which is what I see as the main problem with elite club football. Why do people make assumptions like this all of the time. I think that 10 different teams have won the League title in the last 40 years, that can't be particularly healthy, but neither is Citeh spending what they have. I haven't looked recently but wouldn't be one bit surprised if it were getting up towards £2bn. From there you need to decide what you want, a competition on the field or one based on who has most money and the best legal team. UEFA have just had their arses handed to them on a plate by Citeh's legal team. Of course, it won't go on much longer, there will be a European Super League, it'll be worked out by the clubs. The ''governing bodies'' aren't in control any longer.
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Jul 23, 2020 9:54:20 GMT
It's not a hill I particularly want to die on. I don't have a problem with people trying things but can you really say that FFP has been a success or could be a success? Even in cases where clubs have been found guilty it doesn't seem to have done them any particular harm - Chelsea barely slipped below Champions League standard for a season or 2 and have just gone on a huge spending spree that will in all likelihood make them title contenders again. Barca were barely even touched by the sanctions. So I'm not sure even when it works it's particularly effective.
You sound like you're basically happy with the idea of FFP protecting the existing hierarchy from noveau riche up and comers. I'm not sure where I stand on that really. On the one hand it seems instinctively wrong to have a rule that is essentially about isolating an elite set of clubs from genuine competition that might knock them off their perch. On the other hand it's hard to justify the kind of money that is spent to do that either.
I guess my issue with FFP is that however it's applied I can't see how it does anything to address the parity issue which is what I see as the main problem with elite club football. Why do people make assumptions like this all of the time. I think that 10 different teams have won the League title in the last 40 years, that can't be particularly healthy, but neither is Citeh spending what they have. I haven't looked recently but wouldn't be one bit surprised if it were getting up towards £2bn. From there you need to decide what you want, a competition on the field or one based on who has most money and the best legal team. UEFA have just had their arses handed to them on a plate by Citeh's legal team. Of course, it won't go on much longer, there will be a European Super League, it'll be worked out by the clubs. The ''governing bodies'' aren't in control any longer. 10 teams in 40 years looks quite healthy when you compare it to Spain (7), Germany (7) and France (8)! I'm not so sure about a European Super League. 1. Can the 'big' Clubs screw even more money out of a season when they aren't playing as many domestic (well attended games with local interest)? 2. The logistics (legal and otherwise) would take a gargantuan effort. Herding a lot of fat cats all with their own very large portion of self-interest. I would conclude if the Clubs can't make significantly more money out of it, a European Super League won't happen. Governing bodies. How about Acquiescing bodies? UEFA, PL, EFL, etc etc. LOL. The 'big' Clubs know they control football (at a domestic level and in Europe). I don't think the UEFA lawyers even wanted to win the Man Citeh case. It suits UEFA to issue fines and not bite the hand that feeds. Thus the status quo remains. And everyone still gets rich. Hurrah.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2020 11:47:51 GMT
Why do people make assumptions like this all of the time. I think that 10 different teams have won the League title in the last 40 years, that can't be particularly healthy, but neither is Citeh spending what they have. I haven't looked recently but wouldn't be one bit surprised if it were getting up towards £2bn. From there you need to decide what you want, a competition on the field or one based on who has most money and the best legal team. UEFA have just had their arses handed to them on a plate by Citeh's legal team. Of course, it won't go on much longer, there will be a European Super League, it'll be worked out by the clubs. The ''governing bodies'' aren't in control any longer. 10 teams in 40 years looks quite healthy when you compare it to Spain (7), Germany (7) and France (8)! I'm not so sure about a European Super League. 1. Can the 'big' Clubs screw even more money out of a season when they aren't playing as many domestic (well attended games with local interest)? 2. The logistics (legal and otherwise) would take a gargantuan effort. Herding a lot of fat cats all with their own very large portion of self-interest. I would conclude if the Clubs can't make significantly more money out of it, a European Super League won't happen. Governing bodies. How about Acquiescing bodies? UEFA, PL, EFL, etc etc. LOL. The 'big' Clubs know they control football (at a domestic level and in Europe). I don't think the UEFA lawyers even wanted to win the Man Citeh case. It suits UEFA to issue fines and not bite the hand that feeds. Thus the status quo remains. And everyone still gets rich. Hurrah. This is the problem though isn't it, a small number get very rich whilst Bury go to the wall for an amount that's less than Mesut Ozil is being paid for a month of not playing. The entire game has changed, Rovers have precisely 0 chance of getting into the PL unless Wael has inherited a lot more than I suspect he has. Leeds wage bill last season, just over £46m. Looking at that, it's maybe a bit unfair that Squeaky Jnr has lost his job, he only spent £30m on wages last season. Those numbers are just insane, but that's what's required to compete at the top of the 2nd division now.
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Jul 23, 2020 12:19:36 GMT
10 teams in 40 years looks quite healthy when you compare it to Spain (7), Germany (7) and France (8)! I'm not so sure about a European Super League. 1. Can the 'big' Clubs screw even more money out of a season when they aren't playing as many domestic (well attended games with local interest)? 2. The logistics (legal and otherwise) would take a gargantuan effort. Herding a lot of fat cats all with their own very large portion of self-interest. I would conclude if the Clubs can't make significantly more money out of it, a European Super League won't happen. Governing bodies. How about Acquiescing bodies? UEFA, PL, EFL, etc etc. LOL. The 'big' Clubs know they control football (at a domestic level and in Europe). I don't think the UEFA lawyers even wanted to win the Man Citeh case. It suits UEFA to issue fines and not bite the hand that feeds. Thus the status quo remains. And everyone still gets rich. Hurrah. This is the problem though isn't it, a small number get very rich whilst Bury go to the wall for an amount that's less than Mesut Ozil is being paid for a month of not playing. The entire game has changed, Rovers have precisely 0 chance of getting into the PL unless Wael has inherited a lot more than I suspect he has. Leeds wage bill last season, just over £46m. Looking at that, it's maybe a bit unfair that Squeaky Jnr has lost his job, he only spent £30m on wages last season. Those numbers are just insane, but that's what's required to compete at the top of the 2nd division now. Getting to the PL just isn't realistic. I think we could have a shot at promotion to the championship, but forget any thoughts of even getting to the play-offs should we get there. As for the PL being the 'promised land'... It's just not really what I want. As has been discussed previously, IMHO maintaining the Clubs identity and culture is more important than getting to play in the big boys sandpit. (I accept that should this involve playing tier 4 football this is unacceptable for many). At the risk of repeating myself... a couple of years ago Union Berlin were close to getting promoted to the Bundesliga for the first time in their history. So they unfurled a banner "sheisse, wir steigen auf!" (Oh, sh*t, we're going up!). That, for me, sums it up. (Of course they did go up a couple of seasons later and did not lose their identity, or indeed their Bundesliga status). Eisern Union & UTG.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2020 12:35:23 GMT
This is the problem though isn't it, a small number get very rich whilst Bury go to the wall for an amount that's less than Mesut Ozil is being paid for a month of not playing. The entire game has changed, Rovers have precisely 0 chance of getting into the PL unless Wael has inherited a lot more than I suspect he has. Leeds wage bill last season, just over £46m. Looking at that, it's maybe a bit unfair that Squeaky Jnr has lost his job, he only spent £30m on wages last season. Those numbers are just insane, but that's what's required to compete at the top of the 2nd division now. Getting to the PL just isn't realistic. I think we could have a shot at promotion to the championship, but forget any thoughts of even getting to the play-offs should we get there. As for the PL being the 'promised land'... It's just not really what I want. As has been discussed previously, IMHO maintaining the Clubs identity and culture is more important than getting to play in the big boys sandpit. (I accept that should this involve playing tier 4 football this is unacceptable for many). At the risk of repeating myself... a couple of years ago Union Berlin were close to getting promoted to the Bundesliga for the first time in their history. So they unfurled a banner "sheisse, wir steigen auf!" (Oh, sh*t, we're going up!). That, for me, sums it up. (Of course they did go up a couple of seasons later and did not lose their identity, or indeed their Bundesliga status). Eisern Union & UTG. Good points. Not sure what Rovers' ''identity'' actually is, but just about everybody that was a familiar face at the club has, one by one, been removed or replaced. Only the shop staff remain. PL matches involving top clubs are a treat in terms of the players' technical ability, but there's no escaping the feeling that at the event you are a resource to the corporation hosting the match.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jul 23, 2020 19:09:35 GMT
It's not a hill I particularly want to die on. I don't have a problem with people trying things but can you really say that FFP has been a success or could be a success? Even in cases where clubs have been found guilty it doesn't seem to have done them any particular harm - Chelsea barely slipped below Champions League standard for a season or 2 and have just gone on a huge spending spree that will in all likelihood make them title contenders again. Barca were barely even touched by the sanctions. So I'm not sure even when it works it's particularly effective.
You sound like you're basically happy with the idea of FFP protecting the existing hierarchy from noveau riche up and comers. I'm not sure where I stand on that really. On the one hand it seems instinctively wrong to have a rule that is essentially about isolating an elite set of clubs from genuine competition that might knock them off their perch. On the other hand it's hard to justify the kind of money that is spent to do that either.
I guess my issue with FFP is that however it's applied I can't see how it does anything to address the parity issue which is what I see as the main problem with elite club football. Why do people make assumptions like this all of the time. I wasn't which is why I said 'sound like' because I wanted to understand what you meant. But surely the implication of saying 'Citeh are the perfect example of the club that FFP should be preventing from achieving their level of bought success. Not even the biggest club in their own City', is that a club like City shouldn't be able to spend big to usurp United. In which case there is surely an acceptance that the traditional powerhouse clubs are on some level protected by this. I can't see how else it works. The ultimate logic of FFP is surely that is allows bigger clubs to spend more money than smaller ones even if the smaller ones have deep pocketed owners willing to splash the cash right? So by definition that surely bakes in their advantage doesn't it?
So I see how a more effective FFP could stop the Man City's of this world from skewing things but I still don't see how it creates much of a level playing field.
Epping - I agree that English football has produced a larger range of league winners over the years which is definitely something. But I'd argue that's because we seem to have more turnover among our elite clubs than that we're any better at producing parity.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2020 19:20:41 GMT
Why do people make assumptions like this all of the time. I wasn't which is why I said 'sound like' because I wanted to understand what you meant. But surely the implication of saying 'Citeh are the perfect example of the club that FFP should be preventing from achieving their level of bought success. Not even the biggest club in their own City', is that a club like City shouldn't be able to spend big to usurp United. In which case there is surely an acceptance that the traditional powerhouse clubs are on some level protected by this. I can't see how else it works. The ultimate logic of FFP is surely that is allows bigger clubs to spend more money than smaller ones even if the smaller ones have deep pocketed owners willing to splash the cash right? So by definition that surely bakes in their advantage doesn't it?
So I see how a more effective FFP could stop the Man City's of this world from skewing things but I still don't see how it creates much of a level playing field.
Epping - I agree that English football has produced a larger range of league winners over the years which is definitely something. But I'd argue that's because we seem to have more turnover among our elite clubs than that we're any better at producing parity.
I don't think you understand the difference between a statement and a question. Anyway, there's no issue whatsoever with City spending what they are allowed under agreed FFP rules, but to get to the level of a club such as Utd will take time, that's all.
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Post by laughinggas on Jul 23, 2020 19:52:33 GMT
This salary cap was applicable to leagues one and two. The thread appears to have meandered off topic I suggest.
Having lost the plot during this thread are we saying unworkable for League one and two?
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Jul 24, 2020 10:59:12 GMT
This salary cap was applicable to leagues one and two. The thread appears to have meandered off topic I suggest. Having lost the plot during this thread are we saying unworkable for League one and two? Yup. It's a nice idea, but totally unworkable.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 24, 2020 15:56:06 GMT
Interesting conversations to read now that the “Salary Cap” has been mooted as a solution to clubs financial problems. What would worry me is that at the present time we have FFP and it’s accompanying rules and regulations and most of the bigger clubs have been able to get around it and the more rules that there are the more work the legal teams have and the easier they seem to find to get around the rules. In a EFL and PL where market forces are very strong and where everything has a cost which the richer clubs are prepared to pay to maintain their top place I’m not sure any kind of rules will work effectively. Although it’s worked against Rovers over the past 40 years I quite like the idea that anyone can reach the top of a league by attracting rich owners who are prepared to bank roll the club. I bet Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool are angry at how Chelsea first and then Man C have been able, due to their owners wealth, to break their old monopoly on titles and cups. I don’t want to see either Arsenal or Man U win the league, I like to see Leicester, Liverpool and even Spurs challenge. If a salary cap is to work it would need to be set out in a simple, easy to understand way so as not to give the legal people too many ways to interpret the rules in their own ways. I’m pretty sure Man C did break rules but unfortunately there are/were able to employ better legal teams than EUFA were. A crazy situation. In the same way it’s great to see Wycombe get into the Championship. Yes, I know what many on here feel about them but take the partisan feelings away and you have a bit of a fairy tale. I know irish probably think they’re just a boring mid-southern team (it’s a joke between my thoughts and what I know irish feels! 😉) But I love the idea that a “little” team can still go against the odds and get promoted to a league most of their fans would not have thought possible. And actually epping I don’t agree about it not being realistic for us to get to the PL. Its perfectly possible, I’m not saying it will happen but it is possible. If everything aligns eg. length of contract, some very, very good players, a system that suits them, some serious money behind the club then any club could do that. I’m no expert but having watched AFCB for the last 25 years I’ve seen it happen. They were naughty about their costs in getting to the PL but they gambled knowing it wasn’t sustainable but once they got into the PL they had won. They’ve probably got another two or three days in the PL but they’ve had 5 years there and if they can do it so can we. Let’s face it most of the Championship clubs are basket cases and I’d love a pop at them but am happy to see us playas well as we can and go as far as we can. But to answer the op: keep any rules, caps simple, simplify FFP if you can and give the EFL and authorities some backbone to deal with rule-breaking clubs. But I don’t hold out any way that will effectively happen. UTG!
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Jul 25, 2020 8:20:49 GMT
Interesting conversations to read now that the “Salary Cap” has been mooted as a solution to clubs financial problems. What would worry me is that at the present time we have FFP and it’s accompanying rules and regulations and most of the bigger clubs have been able to get around it and the more rules that there are the more work the legal teams have and the easier they seem to find to get around the rules. In a EFL and PL where market forces are very strong and where everything has a cost which the richer clubs are prepared to pay to maintain their top place I’m not sure any kind of rules will work effectively. Although it’s worked against Rovers over the past 40 years I quite like the idea that anyone can reach the top of a league by attracting rich owners who are prepared to bank roll the club. I bet Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool are angry at how Chelsea first and then Man C have been able, due to their owners wealth, to break their old monopoly on titles and cups. I don’t want to see either Arsenal or Man U win the league, I like to see Leicester, Liverpool and even Spurs challenge. If a salary cap is to work it would need to be set out in a simple, easy to understand way so as not to give the legal people too many ways to interpret the rules in their own ways. I’m pretty sure Man C did break rules but unfortunately there are/were able to employ better legal teams than EUFA were. A crazy situation. In the same way it’s great to see Wycombe get into the Championship. Yes, I know what many on here feel about them but take the partisan feelings away and you have a bit of a fairy tale. I know irish probably think they’re just a boring mid-southern team (it’s a joke between my thoughts and what I know irish feels! 😉) But I love the idea that a “little” team can still go against the odds and get promoted to a league most of their fans would not have thought possible. And actually epping I don’t agree about it not being realistic for us to get to the PL. Its perfectly possible, I’m not saying it will happen but it is possible. If everything aligns eg. length of contract, some very, very good players, a system that suits them, some serious money behind the club then any club could do that. I’m no expert but having watched AFCB for the last 25 years I’ve seen it happen. They were naughty about their costs in getting to the PL but they gambled knowing it wasn’t sustainable but once they got into the PL they had won. They’ve probably got another two or three days in the PL but they’ve had 5 years there and if they can do it so can we. Let’s face it most of the Championship clubs are basket cases and I’d love a pop at them but am happy to see us playas well as we can and go as far as we can. But to answer the op: keep any rules, caps simple, simplify FFP if you can and give the EFL and authorities some backbone to deal with rule-breaking clubs. But I don’t hold out any way that will effectively happen. UTG! Given the status quo - the PL is only possible if a super-rich owner buys the Club. We are very lucky to have Wael Al-Qadi, and he has proved himself by writing off (depending on how you interpret the figures) somewhere between £10mil and £20mil of BRFC debt. And we're improving the infrastructure. We look like a stable and potentially promotion challenging Club and I've really enjoyed the positive news over the last 2 months. BUT. Steve Lansdown has spent circa £300mil (does anyone have the 'correct' number)? and he still has a Club that can't even get into the championship play-offs. Also I know some sh*theads who feel they've lost their identity and don't feel 'a part of it' any more. Nope, we're never going to play PL football and I have absolutely no desire to see us there anyway. As for the EFL (or PL) having some back-bone... yeah, we all know the answer to that one... UTG.
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Rex
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Post by Rex on Jul 25, 2020 8:48:51 GMT
Wasn't there an issue (or maybe more) that a Blackpool's player was wage capped at maximum, but he also had a "part time job" as manager of a hotel to top up wages? In the 50s? Stanley Matthews? Even if this isn't true, I'm sure there will be many incentives for clubs to entice potential players in during ant wage cap structure....and we're back where we started a la Jimmy Hill. People find ways around rules.Just look at Citeh, putting their middle finger up at the authorities and saying 'Come after us and you'll need to go for Barca and PSG as well' and we have more money than you, so go for it if you want. The game's out of control. And this is the way of the world. From sporting salary caps, to social distancing to bribery laws. There is ALWAYS a way.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 25, 2020 11:10:08 GMT
Interesting conversations to read now that the “Salary Cap” has been mooted as a solution to clubs financial problems. What would worry me is that at the present time we have FFP and it’s accompanying rules and regulations and most of the bigger clubs have been able to get around it and the more rules that there are the more work the legal teams have and the easier they seem to find to get around the rules. In a EFL and PL where market forces are very strong and where everything has a cost which the richer clubs are prepared to pay to maintain their top place I’m not sure any kind of rules will work effectively. Although it’s worked against Rovers over the past 40 years I quite like the idea that anyone can reach the top of a league by attracting rich owners who are prepared to bank roll the club. I bet Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool are angry at how Chelsea first and then Man C have been able, due to their owners wealth, to break their old monopoly on titles and cups. I don’t want to see either Arsenal or Man U win the league, I like to see Leicester, Liverpool and even Spurs challenge. If a salary cap is to work it would need to be set out in a simple, easy to understand way so as not to give the legal people too many ways to interpret the rules in their own ways. I’m pretty sure Man C did break rules but unfortunately there are/were able to employ better legal teams than EUFA were. A crazy situation. In the same way it’s great to see Wycombe get into the Championship. Yes, I know what many on here feel about them but take the partisan feelings away and you have a bit of a fairy tale. I know irish probably think they’re just a boring mid-southern team (it’s a joke between my thoughts and what I know irish feels! 😉) But I love the idea that a “little” team can still go against the odds and get promoted to a league most of their fans would not have thought possible. And actually epping I don’t agree about it not being realistic for us to get to the PL. Its perfectly possible, I’m not saying it will happen but it is possible. If everything aligns eg. length of contract, some very, very good players, a system that suits them, some serious money behind the club then any club could do that. I’m no expert but having watched AFCB for the last 25 years I’ve seen it happen. They were naughty about their costs in getting to the PL but they gambled knowing it wasn’t sustainable but once they got into the PL they had won. They’ve probably got another two or three days in the PL but they’ve had 5 years there and if they can do it so can we. Let’s face it most of the Championship clubs are basket cases and I’d love a pop at them but am happy to see us playas well as we can and go as far as we can. But to answer the op: keep any rules, caps simple, simplify FFP if you can and give the EFL and authorities some backbone to deal with rule-breaking clubs. But I don’t hold out any way that will effectively happen. UTG! Given the status quo - the PL is only possible if a super-rich owner buys the Club. We are very lucky to have Wael Al-Qadi, and he has proved himself by writing off (depending on how you interpret the figures) somewhere between £10mil and £20mil of BRFC debt. And we're improving the infrastructure. We look like a stable and potentially promotion challenging Club and I've really enjoyed the positive news over the last 2 months. BUT. Steve Lansdown has spent circa £300mil (does anyone have the 'correct' number)? and he still has a Club that can't even get into the championship play-offs. Also I know some sh*theads who feel they've lost their identity and don't feel 'a part of it' any more. Nope, we're never going to play PL football and I have absolutely no desire to see us there anyway. As for the EFL (or PL) having some back-bone... yeah, we all know the answer to that one... UTG. I agree with that epping but my point was if all the advantages align then it is possible. Unlikely but possible. Having seen the PL close up for 5 years I have no wish to support a club in it and it’s getting worse. I’d rather play in the Southern League than in a league where they have VAR! As to identity isn’t it a bit of a throwaway criticism? I’m not sure what it means. What is our identity? Being portrayed as rag-bag, the poor side of Bristol, the Pirates, gasheads, playing in quarters, having passionate, loud supporters who get behind the team when it’s all going well, who give players and managers stick when it isn’t? So I’m never really sure what identity is or what it means, I know what it means to me and I wouldn’t lose that whichever league we play in but it might be different for others. I’m not sure AFCB have lost their identity because they’ve been in the PL. Whatever league you’re in fans turn up, support, wear the shirt, buy merchandise, buy pies etc etc. In the PL it’s definitely become more expensive to support your team, in a small stadium the newbies (plastics?) take over because they can afford it and some long-standing traditional fans fall by the wayside because they can’t afford it. That I don’t like. I think the Championship is an even stranger place. In the PL the clubs have the money to splash about and we don’t like it. In the Championship lots of clubs splash the money about which they don’t even have. Derby, Sheffield W, are basket cases. I’m not sure I want to be in that league. (I do really) This season all 3 promoted clubs, Barnsley, Luton and Charlton were in the relegation area and the two who looked likely to go down did stay up whilst the one which looked as if they’d avoid it easily did go down. Lots of happy fans in Luton and Barnsley understandably but they’ll be struggling next season as will the clubs that went up. Wigan in their second year look likely to go down. That league is full of wannabes who spend what they haven’t got and to survive others have to do the same and still don’t survive. Id love to see some calibrating of the financial structures and rules to make clubs only spend what they have (that would include rich owners being able to do that, but not at the expense of the clubs future or long term benefit) but I’m not confident that the authorities would ever be able to police it. UTG!
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jul 26, 2020 11:19:58 GMT
This salary cap was applicable to leagues one and two. The thread appears to have meandered off topic I suggest. Having lost the plot during this thread are we saying unworkable for League one and two? I'd argue that it's not really possible to figure out if a salary cap could work unless you factor in a lot of other stuff.
I don't think it can really be discussed in isolation because has implications for so many different things and also has to be placed into the context of the current rules and whether people think they work or not etc. I think Wareham has it right - it comes down to what people want out of football and the various trade offs that have to be made to get there.
I'm not sure that a salary cap is neccesarily unworkable - imposing a salary cap is quite an easy thing to do which is why quite a few leagues have tried this in various forms over the years. But I do think that on its own it would fail to achieve what many would like it to - ie. greater parity on the field and more financial stability for clubs off it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2020 12:57:44 GMT
Ref Wareham's post above.
I have a friend in Bournemouth, he's a bit upset at their almost certain relegation, but he's saying that at least when they are in the 2nd tier he can get tickets to some games, so he would rather that than be in the PL and literally only ever see the team he's grown up supporting on TV.
We spoke about what the owner is likely to do, he thinks that FFP will be ignored unless the threat of a big points deduction is put there.
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eppinggas
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Ian Alexander
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Post by eppinggas on Jul 26, 2020 13:53:40 GMT
Given the status quo - the PL is only possible if a super-rich owner buys the Club. We are very lucky to have Wael Al-Qadi, and he has proved himself by writing off (depending on how you interpret the figures) somewhere between £10mil and £20mil of BRFC debt. And we're improving the infrastructure. We look like a stable and potentially promotion challenging Club and I've really enjoyed the positive news over the last 2 months. BUT. Steve Lansdown has spent circa £300mil (does anyone have the 'correct' number)? and he still has a Club that can't even get into the championship play-offs. Also I know some sh*theads who feel they've lost their identity and don't feel 'a part of it' any more. Nope, we're never going to play PL football and I have absolutely no desire to see us there anyway. As for the EFL (or PL) having some back-bone... yeah, we all know the answer to that one... UTG. I agree with that epping but my point was if all the advantages align then it is possible. Unlikely but possible. Having seen the PL close up for 5 years I have no wish to support a club in it and it’s getting worse. I’d rather play in the Southern League than in a league where they have VAR! As to identity isn’t it a bit of a throwaway criticism? I’m not sure what it means. What is our identity? Being portrayed as rag-bag, the poor side of Bristol, the Pirates, gasheads, playing in quarters, having passionate, loud supporters who get behind the team when it’s all going well, who give players and managers stick when it isn’t? So I’m never really sure what identity is or what it means, I know what it means to me and I wouldn’t lose that whichever league we play in but it might be different for others. I’m not sure AFCB have lost their identity because they’ve been in the PL. Whatever league you’re in fans turn up, support, wear the shirt, buy merchandise, buy pies etc etc. In the PL it’s definitely become more expensive to support your team, in a small stadium the newbies (plastics?) take over because they can afford it and some long-standing traditional fans fall by the wayside because they can’t afford it. That I don’t like. I think the Championship is an even stranger place. In the PL the clubs have the money to splash about and we don’t like it. In the Championship lots of clubs splash the money about which they don’t even have. Derby, Sheffield W, are basket cases. I’m not sure I want to be in that league. (I do really) This season all 3 promoted clubs, Barnsley, Luton and Charlton were in the relegation area and the two who looked likely to go down did stay up whilst the one which looked as if they’d avoid it easily did go down. Lots of happy fans in Luton and Barnsley understandably but they’ll be struggling next season as will the clubs that went up. Wigan in their second year look likely to go down. That league is full of wannabes who spend what they haven’t got and to survive others have to do the same and still don’t survive. Id love to see some calibrating of the financial structures and rules to make clubs only spend what they have (that would include rich owners being able to do that, but not at the expense of the clubs future or long term benefit) but I’m not confident that the authorities would ever be able to police it. UTG! I think you've done a good job in pointing out what our 'identity' is. We have some good USPs and hopefully Tom Gorringe can exploit them to expand the fan base. We didn't lose our identity when we played in tier 5, in fact you could argue it strengthened. The same people turned up in good numbers and supported the Club through the thick and thin (Braintree away anyone)? They drank dry cider, sang and supported. And had a jolly good day out at Wembley to boot. Ask a Man U supporter if they think they've lost some of their identity over the last couple of decades. I think you'll find the answer is "yes". Man U used to be a football Club, now it is a global business. That's why some fans set up FC United. The expense of PL football has seen traditional working class support priced out the market. The prawn sandwich brigade have replaced the terrace supporter. Thankfully in League 1 & 2 ticket prices are just about bearable. Therefore Clubs retain their traditional support and ultimately their identity. IMHO. UTG & Eisern Union.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 26, 2020 17:21:53 GMT
Yes epping, can’t disagree with any of that. I think that about sums it up. Keep the ticket prices reasonable wherever you are, keep your traditional supporters which can only be done when you’ve got a sizeable ground to allow you to keep the income up and you have a chance of keeping your identity. Sell out to foreign owners who see it as a business then you’re likely to see your identity eroded away. It’s one of the things about Wael, I think he gets us as gasheads. UTG!
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 27, 2020 11:16:18 GMT
This salary cap was applicable to leagues one and two. The thread appears to have meandered off topic I suggest. Having lost the plot during this thread are we saying unworkable for League one and two? I'd argue that it's not really possible to figure out if a salary cap could work unless you factor in a lot of other stuff.
I don't think it can really be discussed in isolation because has implications for so many different things and also has to be placed into the context of the current rules and whether people think they work or not etc. I think Wareham has it right - it comes down to what people want out of football and the various trade offs that have to be made to get there.
I'm not sure that a salary cap is neccesarily unworkable - imposing a salary cap is quite an easy thing to do which is why quite a few leagues have tried this in various forms over the years. But I do think that on its own it would fail to achieve what many would like it to - ie. greater parity on the field and more financial stability for clubs off it. It could work but I think you’re right about other things being aligned to it, FFP and % of turnover only being allowed on wages, which I think is still there though I’m not certain. The idea of making very clear, simple rules is attractive and identifying certain income as has been mentioned that can be set against FFP sounds good but I suspect clubs then just interpret other incomes into “legal” and accepted income streams within the rules. Clubs will always get around them. I wonder if there will be an EFL-wide salary cap because the Championship will not like it. Likely it would make the transition into the PL impossible. There is already a danger of the Championship becoming PL2 which it already is in effect though not, so far, in name. So I think the EFL will not want to go against what Championship clubs want although a division by division cap could be possible. Istr years ago when English clubs in the Champions League had to have so many home produced players. It was a simple rule that clubs kept to but once it didn’t suit and the make up of the squads continued to become more world-wide and not so much home it all changed. And that’s what I think would happen in a salary cap system. In a way that boat has sailed and it will be hard to turn the clock back, we live in a market-led economy and football reflects that. Although the Germans do as well and I know some on here know far more about the German model than me so that would be worth looking at. Although I doubt anyone in the EFL would be brave enough to admit to using it as a model just as we’ve come out of the EU! Finally, I don’t think parity on the field is necessarily what I want, clubs will always use their big crowds to get an advantage Accrington, for example, don’t have and that has, does and always will happen. I’m looking for sensible financial planning so clubs don’t extend themselves in a way that puts their very existence at stake, as in Bury, Bolton and possibly Wigan. If owners use their wealth then that should be what they do, they risk their wealth, not the club’s existence and well-being. They become gifts not loans, that may stop them from risking all and make it more sustainable. Effectively that is what Stephen Lansdown has down, so respect to him, albeit grudgingly. And what Wael has done as well, so respect to him, not at all grudgingly. With the timings and the nearness of next season already I can’t see anything changing for next season but perhaps 2021-22. UTG!
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Aug 8, 2020 9:18:02 GMT
This salary cap was applicable to leagues one and two. The thread appears to have meandered off topic I suggest. Having lost the plot during this thread are we saying unworkable for League one and two? Yup. It's a nice idea, but totally unworkable. I still think it's unworkable! We'll see over time how effective it is. Only one guaranteed winner... the legal industry...
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