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Post by toteend3 on May 9, 2020 12:22:14 GMT
Right that's enough yo're Both on the naughty step! Oh come on, it's just getting interesting..you wouldn't want people making highly critical comments of other people's opinions and then running off into the sunset, would you? As your opponent is a tough cookie it will be interesting to see who comes out on top - Therefore - Let Bickle Commence!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 12:25:42 GMT
How far back do you want to go with the Middle East? Happy to do that discussion with you. In modern terms, it won't go well for the Jewish settlers. This is one area where I'm actually with Chelt. Not sure how far Admin would allow us to go with discussing UN resolution 181. A modern problem, but easily resolved. Our school history was called 'Modern History'. It was an Anglo-centric look at the events in Europe from 1914 ~ 1945. Nothing else. No historical or global context at all. In fact, from what was taught, you would never guess that anybody who fought on our side in either WW was not British, not white and no mention whatsoever of America. It was Tommy what won it. Exactly my friend. Then it is not surprising is it when people make judgements and support action which they would most likely NOT do if they were fully conversant of the facts. You could apply that to so many scenarios...😜 There's no excuse for not researching things fully. It's not as if information is hard to find now, is it. But having said that, no amount of text books can replicate real life experience.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 12:27:29 GMT
You are a bit daft aren't you. So wound up in Remoaning that you can't even consider the reasons why it may be inappropriate to divulge certain details on a public forum. Rees-Mogg a buffoon. Did make I laff, I suppose you think that James O'Brian is 'right on'. It's over, you lost, then lost again, then lost again. Of course, it's all the fault of those silly people who aren't as smart as you. Now now, resorting to name calling doesn't become you and attracts the attention of the mods. I get you don't want to quote some very personal circumstance, so drop that one. Give me another example of a law as referred to that impacted you personally. Anything, however trivial. No, it's not for dropping, we either do it or you concede the point and never mention it again.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
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Post by eppinggas on May 9, 2020 13:32:53 GMT
Blimey This thread developed!! My two pennies worth Alcohol Bamber has a point and I say that as someone who consistently consumes more than the recommended daily limits. But the behaviour of a minority is costing us £££s in wasted resources clearing up their mess in health and other public services. Being Proud of your country. The problem is in the description. Does being " proud" excuse you for not knowing history? Is pride therefore a cover for a poor educational standard, or worse, rank ignorance? Should we be proud of the "Peterloo Massacre" Should we be proud of the Tolpuddle Martyrs? Should we be proud of the fact we took infants from unmarried mothers and shipped them to Australia? I could go on but you get my drift. When people (a gross generalisation here) speak of their pride they reiterate ruling class propaganda in the main, almost never articulate exactly what they are proud of. On Europe. This has been done to death and those of us who believe in a free market bound by treaty with effective judicial oversight and with a degree of income redistribution lost. So be it. But I do smile (actually laughed out loud) at Bamber. He brought me into this by reiterating the exam question "name one EU generated law, one that our sovereign parliament passed onto our statute book, that has adversely affected you personally?" His answer that "I have one, but I cannot be bothered to tell you" is, well you know, laughable. The trouble is, in addition, that I suspect given his words, that his antipathy to our membership is driven by a business failure. Now those of us who have gone outside the big corporate blanket to be self employed and run our own businesses know, as Bamber surely does, you don't hit a home run every time. Some ventures fail, at worse, or don't quite meet expectations. I have had a couple, but as the Yanks say, you are not measured by your failure, you are measured by your ability to get back up and do it again. 1. Does being "proud" excuse you for not knowing history? That's a very presumptious and condescending comment Oldie. You don't know my educational back ground, and more specifically you don't know what I know about history. But yes, I am fully aware of the Perterloo massacre, treatment of the Tolpuddle martyrs, behaviour of the Bristish East India company etc etc etc ad nauseum. Some disgusting things have happened in our history. Surprisingly enough quite a lot of mistakes have been made over the last 1000 years. Odd that. I think what is required is balance. Weigh up the "good things" about the history of the country of your birth, and weigh those up against the "bad things". I am very proud to be English. You may not be, that's your choice. Fair enough. It's a free country. We live in a tolerant society. After all, it's freedom and tolerance that we fought for. Cheer yourselves up - all your miserable, guilt-ridden, hand-wringing, Guardian readers. BBC 7pm: Classic Dads Army BBC 7:30pm: Dark Hour Happy VE Boxing Day. Lovely to see all the bunting and flags still out and a sense of national identity bringing people together.
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eppinggas
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Ian Alexander
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Post by eppinggas on May 9, 2020 13:57:59 GMT
Fair point Rex! I was just having a bit of a poke at a "Guardian reader" for a bit of banter... So on VE Day, here's another ramble. English people are generally quite proud of the country of their birth. Most nationalities are. I think the Leave campaign tapped into this. It particularly resonates with the older generation - as was born out in the demographic of the referendum result. 1. One could argue the older you are, the wiser you are. (Just kidding, no need to answer that). 2. The older generation identify much more with being English. The younger generation appear to be happy to identify with being European. The older generation are closer to WWII. Our parents and grandparents lived through it. What did you do when you played out as a kid? "Let's play war. England vs Germany". Alternatively cowboys and indians (Sorry cowboys vs indiginous native Americans). We also have (perhaps a rose-tinted) perception of the UK and it's former empire, when we really were a global super-power. It only takes Captain Tom talking, Darkest Hour, or even a Dame Vera Lynne documentary and I get all nostalgic and very very "English". Stiff upper lip and all that. Told you it was a bit of a ramble. Just trying to explain what it means to me to be English. On VE Day. Eisern Union and Up The Gas. OK, now you've fessed up I'll have a nibble... I was originally responding to the 'firm handshake and stiff upper lip at the Civil Service Club' comment by referring to the 'spirit of Empire' as being one of oppression of other nations via repressed civil servants who were brought up in boarding schools as preparation for 'service' across the Empire. The sort of culture that meant that a chap should keep his tunic on in the heat of the desert. See the film White Mischief as a point of reference maybe. Just one of the results being a lot of emotional retardation in the service of 'the country' Since then we've 'progressed', in gazillions of ways. This is why Dr Faustus gets all publicly gooey at the thought of hugging his family, I think The upsides of the old world view seem to me to be a spirit of adventure, a prioritisation of 'public service' (which is not a phrase which is common amongst da yoof, I think), and (among the best people from those times) aligning personal with public responsibility I see a lot of the latter still in daily life, especially at the moment, although funnily enough not so much of it on social media, and I don't think it's at all incompatible with modern life But then, I think the Mash Report has some laugh-out-loud moments every episode. And I identify primarily as British, rather than English. And I wouldn't dream of identifying myself as something like 'eppinggas' - that would just highlight the caravan in which I was currently staying, rather than identifying something meaningful about myself (says he who uses 'a more piratey game', thus undermining that line entirely - arrgghhh!!!!) I'm disappointed you have bitten back a bit more aggressively. That was all going surprisingly well until the last paragraph... The Mash Report isn't funny unless you're a whiney remoaner. Nish Kumar isn't funny at all - unless people are throwing bread rolls at him. As for the caravan comment - you've lost me there. Unless you're having a dig at the travelling community.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 14:51:04 GMT
Blimey This thread developed!! My two pennies worth Alcohol Bamber has a point and I say that as someone who consistently consumes more than the recommended daily limits. But the behaviour of a minority is costing us £££s in wasted resources clearing up their mess in health and other public services. Being Proud of your country. The problem is in the description. Does being " proud" excuse you for not knowing history? Is pride therefore a cover for a poor educational standard, or worse, rank ignorance? Should we be proud of the "Peterloo Massacre" Should we be proud of the Tolpuddle Martyrs? Should we be proud of the fact we took infants from unmarried mothers and shipped them to Australia? I could go on but you get my drift. When people (a gross generalisation here) speak of their pride they reiterate ruling class propaganda in the main, almost never articulate exactly what they are proud of. On Europe. This has been done to death and those of us who believe in a free market bound by treaty with effective judicial oversight and with a degree of income redistribution lost. So be it. But I do smile (actually laughed out loud) at Bamber. He brought me into this by reiterating the exam question "name one EU generated law, one that our sovereign parliament passed onto our statute book, that has adversely affected you personally?" His answer that "I have one, but I cannot be bothered to tell you" is, well you know, laughable. The trouble is, in addition, that I suspect given his words, that his antipathy to our membership is driven by a business failure. Now those of us who have gone outside the big corporate blanket to be self employed and run our own businesses know, as Bamber surely does, you don't hit a home run every time. Some ventures fail, at worse, or don't quite meet expectations. I have had a couple, but as the Yanks say, you are not measured by your failure, you are measured by your ability to get back up and do it again. 1. Does being "proud" excuse you for not knowing history? That's a very presumptious and condescending comment Oldie. You don't know my educational back ground, and more specifically you don't know what I know about history. But yes, I am fully aware of the Perterloo massacre, treatment of the Tolpuddle martyrs, behaviour of the Bristish East India company etc etc etc ad nauseum. Some disgusting things have happened in our history. Surprisingly enough quite a lot of mistakes have been made over the last 1000 years. Odd that. I think what is required is balance. Weigh up the "good things" about the history of the country of your birth, and weigh those up against the "bad things". I am very proud to be English. You may not be, that's your choice. Fair enough. It's a free country. We live in a tolerant society. After all, it's freedom and tolerance that we fought for. Cheer yourselves up - all your miserable, guilt-ridden, hand-wringing, Guardian readers. BBC 7pm: Classic Dads Army BBC 7:30pm: Dark Hour Happy VE Boxing Day. Lovely to see all the bunting and flags still out and a sense of national identity bringing people together. Sure Forgetting a 1000 years. Let's narrow it down. Let's do, say 1800 to 1970, the beginning of our industrial age to the end of it. A period that directly feeds into where we are today. What are you proud of most over that period, I will suggest some things that are less to be proud of Just an interesting little game.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 14:53:54 GMT
Exactly my friend. Then it is not surprising is it when people make judgements and support action which they would most likely NOT do if they were fully conversant of the facts. You could apply that to so many scenarios...😜 There's no excuse for not researching things fully. It's not as if information is hard to find now, is it. But having said that, no amount of text books can replicate real life experience. You are so right on that one. I treasure the 15 years I spent living abroad, I learned so much.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 14:55:16 GMT
Now now, resorting to name calling doesn't become you and attracts the attention of the mods. I get you don't want to quote some very personal circumstance, so drop that one. Give me another example of a law as referred to that impacted you personally. Anything, however trivial. No, it's not for dropping, we either do it or you concede the point and never mention it again. Ummm, you don't set the rules. Have the courage of your convictions or walk, the choice, as they say, is all yours.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 14:57:22 GMT
1. Does being "proud" excuse you for not knowing history? That's a very presumptious and condescending comment Oldie. You don't know my educational back ground, and more specifically you don't know what I know about history. But yes, I am fully aware of the Perterloo massacre, treatment of the Tolpuddle martyrs, behaviour of the Bristish East India company etc etc etc ad nauseum. Some disgusting things have happened in our history. Surprisingly enough quite a lot of mistakes have been made over the last 1000 years. Odd that. I think what is required is balance. Weigh up the "good things" about the history of the country of your birth, and weigh those up against the "bad things". I am very proud to be English. You may not be, that's your choice. Fair enough. It's a free country. We live in a tolerant society. After all, it's freedom and tolerance that we fought for. Cheer yourselves up - all your miserable, guilt-ridden, hand-wringing, Guardian readers. BBC 7pm: Classic Dads Army BBC 7:30pm: Dark Hour Happy VE Boxing Day. Lovely to see all the bunting and flags still out and a sense of national identity bringing people together. Sure Forgetting a 1000 years. Let's narrow it down. Let's do, say 1800 to 1970, the beginning of our industrial age to the end of it. A period that directly feeds into where we are today. What are you proud of most over that period, I will suggest some things that are less to be proud of Just an interesting little game. Sorry, post edit. I meant to add, to create a balance sheet, to see if it adds up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 15:02:21 GMT
1. Does being "proud" excuse you for not knowing history? That's a very presumptious and condescending comment Oldie. You don't know my educational back ground, and more specifically you don't know what I know about history. But yes, I am fully aware of the Perterloo massacre, treatment of the Tolpuddle martyrs, behaviour of the Bristish East India company etc etc etc ad nauseum. Some disgusting things have happened in our history. Surprisingly enough quite a lot of mistakes have been made over the last 1000 years. Odd that. I think what is required is balance. Weigh up the "good things" about the history of the country of your birth, and weigh those up against the "bad things". I am very proud to be English. You may not be, that's your choice. Fair enough. It's a free country. We live in a tolerant society. After all, it's freedom and tolerance that we fought for. Cheer yourselves up - all your miserable, guilt-ridden, hand-wringing, Guardian readers. BBC 7pm: Classic Dads Army BBC 7:30pm: Dark Hour Happy VE Boxing Day. Lovely to see all the bunting and flags still out and a sense of national identity bringing people together. Sure Forgetting a 1000 years. Let's narrow it down. Let's do, say 1800 to 1970, the beginning of our industrial age to the end of it. A period that directly feeds into where we are today. What are you proud of most over that period, I will suggest some things that are less to be proud of Just an interesting little game. How accepting we are as a society of people from all parts of the world and with different views. This is in danger of being eroded by the fascists masquerading as Liberals who are wholly intolerant of any view that's not aligned with their own. Keep your guard up Oldie.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 15:05:51 GMT
No, it's not for dropping, we either do it or you concede the point and never mention it again. Ummm, you don't set the rules. Have the courage of your convictions or walk, the choice, as they say, is all yours. I'll leave this for the fair minded individuals reading to decide who is willing to debate the point and who is looking for a way of running away from the discussion. I'm still up for it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 15:18:22 GMT
Sure Forgetting a 1000 years. Let's narrow it down. Let's do, say 1800 to 1970, the beginning of our industrial age to the end of it. A period that directly feeds into where we are today. What are you proud of most over that period, I will suggest some things that are less to be proud of Just an interesting little game. How accepting we are as a society of people from all parts of the world and with different views. This is in danger of being eroded by the fascists masquerading as Liberals who are wholly intolerant of any view that's not aligned with their own. Keep your guard up Oldie. Objection A very poor effort at deflection Next...
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 15:19:00 GMT
Ummm, you don't set the rules. Have the courage of your convictions or walk, the choice, as they say, is all yours. I'll leave this for the fair minded individuals reading to decide who is willing to debate the point and who is looking for a way of running away from the discussion. I'm still up for it. If you are up for it do it then?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 15:33:31 GMT
How accepting we are as a society of people from all parts of the world and with different views. This is in danger of being eroded by the fascists masquerading as Liberals who are wholly intolerant of any view that's not aligned with their own. Keep your guard up Oldie. Objection A very poor effort at deflection Next... No. You don't make the rules. I've cited something that I'm proud of, and like you, I've lived abroad, so have real life experience to be able to form an objective opinion. The actual deflection here is from you in not acknowledging the first point.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 15:35:01 GMT
I'll leave this for the fair minded individuals reading to decide who is willing to debate the point and who is looking for a way of running away from the discussion. I'm still up for it. If you are up for it do it then? If I'm up for it I've been inviting you to do this since I don't know when. It's not going to end well for you or your precious EU.
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Post by lostinspace on May 9, 2020 15:46:06 GMT
Question.... just what stupid idiot invented the wheel? ... it's all their fault................. where would we be now if something so stupid as that never materialised ? as for oil....... well[ ..... sorry no pun intended
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Post by matealotblue on May 9, 2020 16:10:27 GMT
Anyone got a clue what this thread is all about?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 16:58:46 GMT
Anyone got a clue what this thread is all about? Nobody knows, just write some old rubbish and see if you can start an argument.
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Post by matealotblue on May 9, 2020 17:01:23 GMT
Anyone got a clue what this thread is all about? Nobody knows, just write some old rubbish and see if you can start an argument. Some old rubbish.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 17:37:27 GMT
If you are up for it do it then? If I'm up for it I've been inviting you to do this since I don't know when. It's not going to end well for you or your precious EU. Post your example or walk away. But you won't so run rabbit, run. Apologies to everyone else, he brought me into this and gets tetchy if I respond. Blokes a ***** so best ignored as indeed I should have done.
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